Avodah Mailing List

Volume 18: Number 7

Tue, 29 Aug 2006

• 1. Pregnant women's sakana brought on by sense of smell (hankman)
• 2. Re: Lo Tasur (Rich, Joel)
• 3. Re: Rhyming in Tanach (Zvi Lampel)
• 4. virtual ona'ah (M Cohen)
• 5. Re] me-rakdim (SBA)
• 6. Re: Rhyming in Tanach (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: avodah Digest, Vol 1, Issue 2 (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: me-rakdim (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: me-rakdim (Micha Berger)

Any medical types on the list? Is there any syndrome known to modern medicine that sounds like the Mishna on Yoma 82a about a pregnant woman who may eat on Yom Kippur to satisfy a desire brought on by an aroma of food, because she would otherwise be in a sakana if the desire is not satisfied. I can not think of any off hand. Or is this another case where we have to come unto the fact that "nishtane hateva"? So in the time of the mishna there was a sakana to pregnant women from this, but this is no longer within the nature of pregnant woman?

The closest I can come up with (but no cigar) is the strange eating desires of women when pregnant, I guess brought on by all the hormonal changes brought on by pregnancy, (I assume this is true and not fiction), as well as morning sickness. But I doubt these conditions can put the mother in significant danger?

Rashi seems to learn that the fetus smells the odor. Does a fetus in utero  have a sense of smell? Can the odor wafting about in the atmosphere get through all the layers to reach the fetus even if it has a developed sense of smell? I  imagine, it would not? Anyone who knows? I think some are maghia rashi so that it is the mother who smells the odor, not the fetus?

How did you learn this Mishna in daf yomi?

Kol Tuv

Chaim Manaster
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RJR writes: 
> We're all familiar with Rashi's statement that even if they tell you 
> that right is left you have to listen. AIUI the supercommentaries 
> understand Rashi to mean this literally,   Has anyone seen a 
> reconciliation of this position with the mishneh in Horiyot which 
> states that a member of bet din or talmid raui lhoraah can not rely on

> bet din and if he acts on bet din's psak, knowing it's wrong, he's 
> chayav 

Don't know if this helps (and I haven't seen it inside as I do not have
a copy of the relevant sfarim quoted by the Sde Chemed), but the Sde
Chemed in Mareches Lamed clal 6 (chelek 3 p266) [which is on the mitzva
of lo taasur] quotes the Chida in Sefer Pesach Anayim in his chiddushim
to Rosh Hashana daf 25a in relation to the matter of Rabbi Yehoshua with
Rabbanan Gamliel that davka this is in a matter on which there is to him
katzas safek but if he knows vadai without any safek that the judge has
made a mistake he should not do as per his words - and the Sde Chemed
continues that his words are brought by HaRav Taharas Hamayim in this
marecha at ois 11 and he writes shehem d'varim peshutim b'reish Horiyos

Regards

Chana 
=============================
Thanks for the cite, it's along the lines of what I've been
hearing/seeing  since my original post.  The question that now
fascinates me is how do the poskim define this vadai -can you ever be
vadai in logic or is it only in facts? Torah issue vs. rabbinic? Genius
level individual vs. not? Sanhedrin vs. other sources of "psak",Perhaps
Y"K is an exception to the rule...........

It's fascinating to watch great minds wrestle with the same data points
and try to reconcile them. It also seems to my puny mind that there was
not a clear mesora on such a basic issue.
KT
Joel Rich
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R. Moshe Yehuda Gluck asked: 

>Is rhyming ever used in Tanach? 

How about this:

VaYomer Moshe
Asruah na va-er-eh
Ess haMareh HaGadol Hazeh
Madua lo yiv'ar haSneh.

Rhyme coincidence?

Zvi Lampel

Re: My son plays an online game which includes an economic component-people
make virtual things and buy and sell them for virtual money..  ..Would we
say that there
is implicit consent since everyone has agreed to play buy the rules,
or is there a general issur of deception even in a game that encourages
deception (would that make it assur to play "Diplomacy"?).


1) ona'ah is muter wrt a nJew (making the game question a mute one)

2) although a game that encourages deception is not technically assur, it
sure isn't good for one's midos training.

(I'm not familiar with the game Diplomacy)

KT,
Mordechai Cohen

From: Eli Turkel
SBA From: "Eli Turkel" <>
I recently saw R. Leff at a wedding and asked him to translate
"kezad merakdim lefnei hakallah". He insisted that merakdim means
to dance. As to Rashi and the answers he interpreted that as "body
language" so that the dancing implied or included some attitudes.
>>

In reply to the question of "Keitzad merakdin'', the gemara
brings machlokes BH and BS ie, 'kallah na'eh vechasida' and
'kalla kemos shehi'.How do we understand this,
 if the question was simply talking
about body and language and dancing?
==============

That was exactly the question to him. He felt that body language would 
convey
whether the dancer felt the kallah was beautiful or not.
>>

The Beis Shamai had a different styles of dancing before
a beautiful kallah and an ugly kallah???

SBA 

On Mon, August 28, 2006 3:00 pm, R Dr. Josh Backon wrote:
: R. Moshe Yehuda Gluck asked:
:>Is rhyming ever used in Tanach?
:
: Think of the alliteration in Ha'Azinu and in V'Zoht ha'Bracha...
: While not rhyme, there is also extensive use of acrostics (Tehillim 9, 10,
: 25, 34, 37, 119; Mishlei 31:10-31; Eicha)....

After bentching one Shabbos, my son suggested the following reason why rhyming
doesn't play the same role in lashon haqodesh as it may in other languages.
(Assuming it doesn't.)

In a language with heavy diqduq, rhyming is easy and commonplace. The example
that sparked the idea was "AviNU, MalkeiNU, AdireiNU, Bore'eiNU, Go'aleiNU,
YotzereiNU, QedosheiNU..." (which is how I remember it came up after
bentching).

Similarly, picture rhyming "-hem" (or "tivi'eimo vesita'eimo").

IOW, the Tanakh uses rhyming most times that a woman is the protagonist!

In which case, it's hard to see it as a significant feature of the text.

-mi
http://www.aishdas.org/asp

On Fri, 25 Aug 2006 11:37:13, R' Ben Waxman wrote:
: i was in a different situation during the war. i wasn't called up this
: time, but i did go up north several times to help in zefat and quiryat
: shemona. afterwards several people (not great rabbis) told me that i may
: have been over doing this. by placing myself in a makom sakana, which i
: didn't have any right to do, i lost whatever protection i may have had
: as someone doing a mitzva....

Sheluchei mitzvah einam nizaqin has the same exception -- "heikha dishekhiach
hezeiqa shaani" (the case of Shemu'el on Yuma 11a). Ask any soldier, no matter
how much of a baal bitachon, if he thinks he is entirely safe from nezeq while
fighting a war.

So, there is a difference between whether one is doing a mitzvah vs being
oveir a lav and whether one is placing oneself in saqanah.

Second, from my experience doing something similar (but arriving /after/ the
ceasefire), it is not like there is an overabundance of people going -- they
/still/ need supplies and chizuq. I do not see the idea that others /could
have/ gone to be too relevant, as opposed to the question of whether enough
are actually going.

(The issue of chizuq is particularly important now that many people are
wondering what their friends were injured or died for, and yet many believe
that the odds of the fight resuming is quite high. [Both phrased as opinion so
as to avoid discussions of the likelihood of truth of these beliefs. Assume
they are for the sake of theoretical converation.] As already noted, some
amount of morale boosting is on the level of hatzalas nefashos; better
motivated soldiers are more likely to survive.)

-mi
http://www.aishdas.org/asp

On Mon, August 28, 2006 2:51 pm, Eli Turkel wrote:
: That was exactly the question to him. He felt that body language would
: convey whether the dancer felt the kallah was beautiful or not.

Perhaps riqud was a naarative dance. Not the hula in style (given its more
fundamental tzeni'us issue), but the same notion that there is a sign-language
like layer added to the straight dancing.

-mi
http://www.aishdas.org/asp

On Mon, August 28, 2006 2:51 pm, Eli Turkel wrote:
: That was exactly the question to him. He felt that body language would
: convey whether the dancer felt the kallah was beautiful or not.

Perhaps riqud was a naarative dance. Not the hula in style (given its more
fundamental tzeni'us issue), but the same notion that there is a sign-language
like layer added to the straight dancing.

I'm still not clear why we're assuming that riqud WRT tzeni'us refers to the
same thing as riqud WRT Shabbos. By Shabbos, it is lumped together with hand
clapping, IOW, the defining feature is that one is using one's feet to stamp
out a rhythm. And that's why it borders on a keli shir.

But I can't see how that's a defining feature WRT tzeni'us. When it comes to
tzeni'us, the question is one of dancing with abandon, which is why both feet
leaving the floor (something RGD and I saw on the men's side of a chasunah
last night) may be the defining feature, rather than rhythm.


-mi
http://www.aishdas.org/asp



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