Avodah Mailing List

Volume 17 : Number 046

Wednesday, May 17 2006

• RE: Spilling out drops of wine at the Seder
• RE: Rambam on variation in length of month of Elul
• RE: Shavuos and Matan Torah
• Bows and arrows on Lag ba'omer
• R. Akivah & talmidim
• RE: Al Naharos Bavel: Authorship and Ibn Ezra's shitta
• Re: Al Naharos Bavel: Authorship and Ibn Ezra's shitta
• Re: Al Naharos Bavel: Authorship and Ibn Ezra's shitta
• Re: Shevuos - Matan Torah
• Re: Shevuos - Matan Torah
• Re: Shavuos and Matan Torah
• Re: Shavuos and Matan Torah
• opposition to lag ba'omer Meron pilgrimage by gedolim - sources
• Re: Challah on the Table
• Re: Rambam on variation in length of month of Elul
• Re: Spilling out drops of wine at the Seder
• Re: Malachim (was Spilling drops of wine at the Seder)

On May 8, 2006, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Sun, May 07, 2006 at 12:37:05AM -0400, S & R Coffer wrote:
> :> I would say, though, that you bring a list of ra'ayos that binfol doesn't
> :> stand alone without ba'avod resha'im rinah, not that compassion is wrong.
> :> IOW, you proved the existence of the other emotion, but did not disprove
> :> the idea that we're supposed to feel both.

> : I am incapable of experiencing these contradictory emotions simultaneously
> : and thus I teitch binfol differently than you.

> I don't think this is true, you just haven't noticed. Ever since the eitz
> hada'as, every decision is the product of an irbuvyah of motivations,
> and every situation met with an irbuvyah of reactions.

This has nothing to do with our topic. Subconscious (or even
semi-conscious) animating factors are beyond the ability of man to
inhibit; his is the job of reigning in his feelings, of controlling
his thoughts so ultimately they don't contradict the ratzon haBoreh
(basically the baal HaTanya's beinoni). However, we are discussing a
specific command by the Torah to feel a certain way. This *is* within
our control and nowhere in the pasuk of 'ba'avod' does it imply that we
should embrace two separate and contradictory emotions. And like I said,
I have no idea how one can consciously accomplish such a feat.

> Ambivalence is
> the norm, not the rarity.

I don't think you are right. People are not ambivalent; they just have
issues with self-control and choose to conceal their shortcomings behind
a veil of nebulousness. Like Chazal say, "yod'in ri'shaim shedarkam
l'missa vi'yesh la'hem cheilev al kislam" (Shabbos 31:).

Simcha Coffer  

R' Micha Berger wrote:
> I understood the gemara not to be astronomical, but calendrical.

The Gemara in Beitzah 6a doesn't sound like that. The language of the
gemara sounds like it was an observed phenomenon. It sounds like the
witnesses always came. The gemara discusses the time where the witnesses
came after mincha and niskalklu haleviim b'shir, if it was calenderic
why did they wait for the witnesses and why would they make a takana of
2 days Rosh Hashana? Let the Beis Din just always declare the 30th day
Rosh hashana whether witnesses come or not. This is certainly within
the power of Beis Din.

A big question is if you cross the date line during sefira and your count
becomes a day ahead or behind where you end up. There were poskim who
entertained the possibility that you would keep Shavuos based on your
private count 50 days after Pesach on a different day then everyone else.

On 5/17/06, Shoshana L. Boublil <toramada@bezeqint.net> wrote (on areivim):

> The custom of making bows and arrows is an old custom.  I know it was around 50 years ago.  I'm trying to located sources.

It's mentioned already in the Benei Yissachar, Lag Ba'omer siman dalet
(http://www.tsel.org/torah/bneiyis/247.html), but connected to Bar Yohai
rather than Bar Cochba.

I'm not sure exactly when the Benei Yissachar was written, but around
the beginning of the 19th century.

Let us just remember that there were more than just the 5 talmidim of
R. Akivah that survived Bar Kochba.
Other examples are
R. Shimon be Gamliel
R. Yonasan a talmid of R. Yishmael
and of course R. Natan & R. Chiya from Bavel

I am sure there were many others but these come immediately to mind

 --
Eli Turkel

R"n Toby Katz wrote:
> If Hashem can have that foreknowledge without destroying
> people's bechira, then He can also transmit it prophetically
> to nevi'im without destroying bechira.

R' Simcha Coffer asked:
> How? If I know that something will happen (i.e. have actually
> seen it happen), how can someone have bechira to choose? The
> Rambam's answer only works for Hashem who is above the
> limitations of time and space, not for us.

My understanding is that even if the Navi knows what I will do, I still
have as much bechira as when HaShem knows what I will do. Foreknowledge
does not interfere with my bechira until I am told that I will do
such-and-such.

Why should it matter who (or Who) it is that knows my future actions? My
practice is to resolve the paradox of "Hakol tzafui vehareshus nesunah"
as follows: It is not their foreknowledge that determines the choice
which I will make; rather it is the free-willed choice which I'll make
that determines their foreknowledge.

I could argue (and if anyone wants to continue this, then please start
a new thread for it) that I still have full bechira even if the Navi
informs me of the choice which I'll make. As I said, it is not the
foreknowledge that determines the choice which I will make; rather it is
the free-willed choice which I'll make that determines the foreknowledge.

Akiva Miller

R' Simcha Coffer  wrote:
>The obvious issue this thread is addressing is how Dovid was able to 
>compose a mizmor which portrayed events which had not yet occurred. 
>I accept (and am grateful for the clarification of) RZL's 
>explanation but I have a kasha. How can Dovid, or anyone for that 
>matter, describe events which occur in the future when said events 
>are ostensibly taluy on bechira?

I'm not sure that's relevant to this case. We have prophecies that refer
to a conflict with Edom in the future. What does that mean, exactly?
After it happens, we'll probably have a better idea.

King David wrote of exiles in Babylon. Who knew when that might happen?
Whether it was a metaphor? And in fact, who says there weren't captives
in Babylon during David's own time.

Isaiah even spoke of Cyrus by name. But there were at least two
Persian kings by that name, so I can't see that it detracted even from
his bechira. But David did less than that. He didn't say "Al naharot
Bavel (she-sham higlanu Nevuchadnezzar Ha-Kasdi) sham yashavu gam bachinu
b'zochreinu et Tziyon (she-nechrav bimei Tzidkiyahu melech Yehudah)."
That might have been a bit much, but as it was, I can't see how bechira
becomes an issue.

[Email #2. -mi]

On Tue, 16 May 2006 10:58:55 EDT, T613K@aol.com wrote:
>Consider also that they kept the Torah before it was given and set 
>aside the Tribe of Levi to be priests already in Egypt but Levi only 
>became the shevet of kohanim when the first-borns sinned at the chet 
>ha'egel.

That's medrash, though. And not to be taken as literally true. In this
case, it's demonstrably false, as witness Yaakov's marriage to two
sisters and Amram's marriage to his aunt.

Lisa

On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 02:39:04PM -0700, Mark Levin wrote:
: As for the Ibn Ezra, the only issue is whether Sefer Tehillim was written
: b'ruach haKodesh...

I'm surprised. I thought it was an offener gemara -- Kesuvim were written
beruach haQodesh. The question I had was the line between RhQ and nevu'ah.
Al naharos Bavel, with its specifity of a country that wasn't yet an
empire, the Leviim, etc... stretches my understanding of what can be
relayed by RhQ.

The impression one gets from the gemara's proof that Esteir was written
bRhQ is that one element is that the author could write something he
didn't even realize how he knew, and only in retrospect realized that
he couldn't know another's thoughts without RhQ, or that not a single
Jew took any shelelah anywhere in the empire.


On Tue, May 16, 2006 at 10:58:55AM -0400, T613K@aol.com wrote:
: If Hashem can have that foreknowledge without destroying people's bechira,
: then He can also transmit it prophetically to nevi'im without destroying
: bechira.

Until the person who has to make the decision gets the information.

Besides, nevu'os of tragic events are not guaranteed to happen. They
are hasra'os, HQBH telling us what the onesh would be if trends in
human behavior were to continue.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 34th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        4 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Yesod sheb'Hod: How does submission result in
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  and maintain a stable relationship?

A beautiful explanation of the subject of the dates of Matan Torah (7
Sivan) and Chag HaSHavuot (6 Sivan) is found in Eliyahu Kitov's Sefer
Hatodaah/The Book of our Heritage, chapter 28 . He says that the Sfat
Emet gives a similar explanation.

Briefly (and I here do not do full justice to the Sefer Todaa, ayen
sham), the Jews knew that Matan Torah would be 50 days from Pesach
("taavdun", the nun being 50). The Jews' count from Pesach was in the
manner of Bnei Noach, who count each day from the morning, the night
following the day "Yom valayla lo yishbotu". Thus the Jews started
counting from the morning following the holisday of Pesach, the morning
of the 16th of Nissan. However, several days before the scheduled time of
Matan Torah, the Jews were given the "yeud", the parsha of "Atem r'item
ki min hashamayim dibarti aleichem...", which contains the mission of
the Jews and then goal of Matan Torah, and indeed already expressed at
that time their willingness to accept this mission. From that time on,
they already had the status of Bnei Yisrael. However, according to
their new status, their count was deficient, since the first day they
counted was incomplete. Thus Moshe, perceiving thi s new situation,
"hosif yom echad midaato" added another day, so that 50 complete days
would be counted in the proper way, night followed by day.Thus that
year, the counting period ended on the 7th of Sivan, which is when the
Torah was given. However, subsequently, every year, the Jews of course
count from the very beginning as Bnei Yisrael, from the night following
Pesach. Thus now, when we count 50 days, they end on the 6th of Sivan,
which is when we celebrate Shavuot.

Thus we are to understand the braita "Tanu Rabbanan, b'shishi b'chodesh
nitnu aseret hadibrot l'Yisrael. Rabbi Yossi omer, b'shiva bo". Rabbi
Yossi does not say "b'shiva b'chodesh" but b'shiva "bo", referring to the
"shishi" of the chachamim. The seventh of Sivan (that year) fell on the
sixth of every year. Shvii shehu shishi.

Saul Mashbaum

On Tue, May 16, 2006 at 09:47:23AM -0400, Jacob Farkas wrote:
:> Zman is general not specific. I have no explanation how the Magen Avraham
:> missed this.

: Your assumption is that Yom and Z'man are totally different. While
: linguistically they are, and would have different meanings, in the
: context of VaTittein Lanu...Es Yom...Z'man... it may not matter. As
: the Z'man in the description is describing the Yom that God gave us,
: the only explanation of Z'man is "this context" would be the "very day."

Why? "Zeman" could mean period, which includes the very day, when it comes
to Pesach and Sukkos, but not Shavu'os.

Personally, I do not believe that's the difference between zeman and yom,
but I do not see how you have proven your point.

There are two systems of time in Yahadus. Progress and repetition,
yamim veshanim, ittim uzemanim. See
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/mikeitz64.shtml>.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 34th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        4 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Yesod sheb'Hod: How does submission result in
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  and maintain a stable relationship?

> A big question is if you cross the date line during sefira and your count
> becomes a day ahead or behind where you end up. There were poskim who
> entertained the possibility that you would keep Shavuos based on your
> private count 50 days after Pesach on a different day then everyone else.

Do you have any sources, this is a very interesting point...

Jacob Farkas

On Wed, May 17, 2006 at 11:29:32AM -0400, Jacob Farkas wrote:
: Do you have any sources, this is a very interesting point...

It has been discussed here on the past (v3n18-44, v11n23-24). The L
Rebbe wrote a sichah on it. He writes that Shavuos is on the day after
49 days and YT sheini shel galiyos is always on 7 Iyyar/Iyar. 6 Iyar
must be also observed because of "al tifrosh".

R' Goren just skipped a day.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 34th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        4 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Yesod sheb'Hod: How does submission result in
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  and maintain a stable relationship?

From: Phyllostac@aol.com
>                 In a subsequent conversation with someone somewhat
> knowledgable about such matters, I was told that the Satmar Rebbe,
> R. Yoel Teitelbaum, spoke out against it.

I read recently, that someone once told the SR1 [the baal Divrei Yoel
or VM, as he is now identified, with his 'memale mokom' the SR2 - known
as the baal Beirach Moshe], that RYZ Dushinsky zt'l did not allow his
talmidim to go to Meron on Lag B'Omer saying: 'er iz niks dort' ["He -
Rashbi - is not there (that day)"].

I presume that he held so because of the carnival atmosphere, taaruvus,
and hollelus etc that take place in Meron that day.

The SR replied, that although when he was in EY, he DID go to Meron on
LB, Rav Dushinsky was right..

OTOH I noticed in the reports about those who were there this week,
inlcue Rav Chaim Hersh Teitelbaum, son of the SR [RZL], rav of Jm Satmar.

SBA

R'nTK:
> Comments? Early Shabbos once nearly universal? People used to eat
> Friday night meal by sunlight?

> (Recently I read something, actually, which seemed to indicate the
> opposite -- namely, that when people didn't have clocks and watches,
> they used to light candles when it started to get dark outside -- later
> than we do nowadays. I don't know whether that is true, either.)

Both are right, it just depends when and where. Some elderly still
remember how in Polen, 'Hassiedim would lite once it was getting dark,
since they adhered to Rabbenu Tam zeman. However, in the Middle Ages
in Ashkenaz, it sounds like Tosafos' description was more actual,
especially considering that people did get up earlier, and therefore went
to sleep earlier, as is apparent from Rabbenu Tam's strong disagreement
with Rabbenu Meshulam regarding when to eat the third meal. From that
disagreement, we see that RT ate the 3rd meal before we eat the 2nd
nowadays. It might also be reasonable to posit a difference between
summer and winter.

Kol tuv,
Arie Folger

PS: the disagreement between RT and RM is documented in Ta Shma's Minhag
Ashkenaz haKadmon, and is actually in the Tur, regarding the time of
the 3rd meal.

> R' Micha Berger wrote:
>> I understood the gemara not to be astronomical, but calendrical.

> The Gemara in Beitzah 6a doesn't sound like that. The language of the
> gemara sounds like it was an observed phenomenon. It sounds like the
> witnesses always came. The gemara discusses the time where the witnesses
> came after mincha and niskalklu haleviim b'shir, if it was calenderic
> why did they wait for the witnesses and why would they make a takana of
> 2 days Rosh Hashana? Let the Beis Din just always declare the 30th day
> Rosh hashana whether witnesses come or not. This is certainly within
> the power of Beis Din.

Does BD have the authority to refuse witnesses?

Jacob Farkas

>>                                                       Ever since the eitz
>> hada'as, every decision is the product of an irbuvyah of motivations,
>> and every situation met with an irbuvyah of reactions.

> This has nothing to do with our topic. Subconscious (or even
> semi-conscious) animating factors are beyond the ability of man to
> inhibit; his is the job of reigning in his feelings, of controlling
> his thoughts so ultimately they don't contradict the ratzon haBoreh
> (basically the baal HaTanya's beinoni). However, we are discussing a
> specific command by the Torah to feel a certain way. This *is* within
> our control and nowhere in the pasuk of 'ba'avod' does it imply that we
> should embrace two separate and contradictory emotions. And like I said,
> I have no idea how one can consciously accomplish such a feat.

Nowhere in Ba'avod does it say that we should rejoice either. rather
Ba'avod R'shai'im Rinah is a statement of fact, that there exists
happiness in their demise. The reason for this happiness is not in
their Mapalah, that they got theirs, but rather because the Resha'im
were destroyed, the Ra in the world diminished, and that is very much
a reason for happiness.

Binfol Oyivkhah Al Tismakh is a lesson in Tiqun haMiddos, that one
shouldn't enjoy yenem's mapalah.

It should be pretty simple to enjoy the fact that Ra is diminished while
at the same time refrain from enjoying the Mapalah.

>> Ambivalence is
>> the norm, not the rarity.

> I don't think you are right. People are not ambivalent; they just have
> issues with self-control and choose to conceal their shortcomings behind
> a veil of nebulousness. Like Chazal say, "yod'in ri'shaim shedarkam
> l'missa vi'yesh la'hem cheilev al kislam" (Shabbos 31:).

Tiqun haMiddos is about taking charge of oneself and one's inherent
tendencies. It would be awfully easy [or irrelevant] if we were born
without flaw. had we not had the tendency to rejoice in a Mapalah,
the Pasuq in Mishlei warning us against it would have been pointless.
Obviously, people lean towards those feelings. the challenge is to rise
above the tevah to rejoice, and acknowledge that Din is in the hands
of HQBH, how he doles it out is his business, and if it benefits us,
rejoice in our deliverance, but not in his execution of Din.

Jacob Farkas

R' Micha Berger wrote:
>> I've discussed in the past, on more than one occasion, the position
>> of the Kotzker that there is no time in shamayim, that niftarim do not
>> experience time. This is also presumed by the reason given in SA haRav for
>> YT sheini shel goliyos, as recently discussed. Qedushas YT on YT shein
>> shel galiyos is just as real as that of YT rishon. There is a supernal
>> "Pesach" (lemashal) "up" in shamayim, but it is not associated with any
>> point in shamayim, since it is lema'alah min hazeman. HQBH created a
>> link between the 15th day after qidush hachodesh and Chazal created a
>> link on the 16th. While the nature of the link is different, the thing
>> they link to is identical.

R' Simcha Coffer wrote:
> Nice vort. At the same time, I would like to add that Hashem's link would
> seem to me to be more powerful than Chazal's. Hashem's link is part of the
> essence of creation (see Maharal Tiferes Yisrael 25 on the pasuk 'la'kol
> z'man va'eis') as opposed to Chazal's which is manufactured. Concordantly,
> if one is michalel Yom Tov on the first day of Pesach, his punishment is
> not as great as being michalel Yom Tov on the second day of Pesach. In
> fact, there are halachic kulos on Yom Tov sheini shel galuyos (shvus
> d'shvus etc.) which indicates that the kedushas haYom of a Yom Tov
> d'Rabbanon is inferior to that of a Yom Tov mi'de'oraysa.

Just because there are Qulos on the second day does not make it "less"
of of Yom Tov than the first day. We still recite Shehe'hiyanu, Hallel,
and all the Mitzvos hayom are obligatory. Issur M'lakhah is still in
place [even though hazal allowed for some leniences], Mitzvos Asseh like
Tefillin were suspended, IOW, it's the real deal.

I mentioned in an earlier post that the Midrash [Shir Hashirim Rabbah
1:6] (It is also a Yerushalmi, I don't have the source at hand now)
suggests that before YT sheini shel galuyos one day was sufficient,
now we need both days (this is logically derived from the fact that we
are obligated to keep both days but do not receive reward for 2 days).

Jacob Farkas

*********************


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