Avodah Mailing List

Volume 17 : Number 019

Monday, April 24 2006

• RE: mevushal wines
• Re: Seventh Day of Pesach on Friday
• RE: A Sefer Torah Presently Located in a Reform Temple
• eating before seder
• Re: Seventh Day of Pesach on Friday
• Re: V'imru Amen in shmoneh esrei
• Chameitz and S'or
• Kilayim Today
• RE: eating before seder
• Re: Computer Sheimos
• Re: Seventh Day of Pesach on Friday
• Re: Seventh Day of Pesach on Friday
• RE: preparing for the second seder
• Re: Korban Pesach
• Re: Korban Pesach
• Re: Forks in the Road to the Seder
• Re: Seventh Day of Pesach on Friday

On April 23, 2006 Meir Rabi wrote:
> Thanks for the responses Rabbosay, however the Q remains unanswered;
> whatever the authority considers to be mevushal should allow them to
> indicate that it is mevushal. Indicating that it may be treated like
> mevushal sounds like they are using a different approach that has,
> in the eyes of halacha, equal status to mevushal.

They are. Normally, heating something to above 130 degrees F causes
fundamental chemical changes in organic material (such as the destruction
of vitamins and degradation of the fibrous substance in foods like
vegetables). Flash heating aims to avoid these chemical changes
and apparently succeeds in accomplishing this task. Thus, although FH
possesses *some* of the qualities of bishul, it doesn't possess *all* of
its qualities. Apparently, it retains enough qualities to be considered
yayin mevushal.

Simcha Coffer

From: ephraim.stulberg@utoronto.ca
> At lunch yesterday, we were discussing what happens in Israel when
> the seventh, and final, day of Pesach is on Friday ...

> 1) Eat matzo. The issues here are twofold. Firstly, there is an issue of
> quasi-bal tosif. Regarding sukkot, the gemara and S.A discuss a case of
> someone who is unable to relocate from his sukka following the last day of
> sukkot. We require him to make some sort of change in his sukka...
> As well, my sister-in-law pointed out that Sefaradim do not recite
> hamotzee on matza outside of Pesach...

Eating Matzah in the six latter days of Pesah is a Reshus, not a
Mitzvah. See Gemara P'sahim 120a, Mah shv'i'i r'shus af sheishes yamim
r'shus. SA in OH 475:7 says specifically that there is no Hiyuv to eat
Matza in the six latter days. Although the MB [OH 475:7 sq 45] does
mention that they say that the GRA considered it a Mitzvah to eat Matzah
on all days of Pesah, [the MB does not say whether this practice of the
GRA was in Mitzvas Matzah per se, rather than in practice he sought to
eat Matzah all seven days, reason unknown --jf.]

This R'shus of eating Matzah does not end when Pesah ends. At least with
Sukkos, you are M'qayeim a mitzvah while eating in the sukkah, and that
is specific to the seven day timeframe. Should you continue past seven
days you could be subject to Bal Tosif.

Jacob Farkas

On April 23, 2006, Micha Berger wrote:
> Now, however, C's contemporary situation is one that includes a majority
> of readers that are women, and a sizable population -- including potential
> readers -- who are not Jewish lehalakhah.

As far as being yotzey krias haTorah, what's the difference between
a MSB which R' Moshe paskens has the din of a goy, and a woman? Am I
missing something?

BTY, RMB must be right because otherwise, why else did R' Moshe allow
the sale of the sefer Torah? I just don't understand what he "fardeened"
with that psak if he had RMB's motivation in mind in view of his psak
regarding a MSB.

Simcha Coffer

According to Halakha one should not have a meal in the late afternoon
before Pesach because it takes away from the taste of the Matzah.

My wife decided to sort of do the opposite. Since Pesach starts at about
7 in Israel and till the Seder begins it is 8:30 or later and until the
Hamotzi is reached it is 10:30 or later she found that most people are
very hungry and have no patience for the Haggadah. Instead she fed those
that wanted a quantity of meat and other filling things (obviously no
bread/matza) so that people would no be starving during the haggadah. If
they eat at 4 or 5pm no one is to filled to eat by 10:30-11pm.

--
Eli Turkel

Ephraim Stulberg wrote:
> At lunch yesterday, we were discussing what happens in Israel when
> the seventh, and final, day of Pesach is on Friday (in Galut it is
> impossible for Pesach to end on a Friday). How do they get bread for
> lechem mishneh? ....

> 1) Eat matzo. The issues here are twofold. Firstly, there is an issue
> of quasi-bal tosif...
>                   But what would one do to differentiate with matza?
> Egg matza (for Ashkenazim)?

In addition to egg matza being permitted for Sepharadim on Pesach (so it's
not a change), egg matza would be mezonot for Sepharadim, even on pesach.

> As well, my sister-in-law pointed out that Sefaradim do not recite
> hamotzee on matza outside of Pesach, the reason being that they hold
> it to be an "unnatural" way to eat bread ("coseis" - M.B.).
> Presumably then, even if they were to be "kovea seudah" on matzo,
> they could still not say hamotzi.

Hard matzot, like the crackers they so resemble, are pat haba b'kisnin.

I asked my rabbi about matza during the rest of the year, and it seems
to him that one would make hamotzi on soft matzah even during the rest
of the year.

(He has a custom though of not eating matzah the rest of the year)

--Ken

Zev Sero <zev@sero.name> wrote:
>>: Amen as an ending was used at the end of sections of prayer....
>> I thought only for the conclusion of strings of berakhos hasemuchot
>> lechavertot.

> Yishtabach?

Yishtabach is connected to Baruch She'amar, which is why we are forbidden
to interrupt during psukei d'zimra.

 -Ken Bloom

So I was intrigued by the apparent similarity of s'or and sourdough.
Looking at the OED, "sour" goes back to the early Middle Ages, almost
identical in German, English and Slavic - so it must be Indo-European.

Looking at online databases of Semitic and Indo-European roots, swr shows
up as a Proto-Indo-European root, but not as a Semitic root; the Semitic
analogue is "HMZ", which is what you'd expect - chametz. And the Targum
for Ex. 12:15, 19 uses "cham`ah" or "chami`a" for the Hebrew "s'or", which
(given the `ayin-tzadi shift between Hebrew and Aramaic) fits just fine.

So what's an Indo-European word doing in the Chumash, when there's
a perfectly good Semitic word for it?

   - jon baker    jjbaker@panix.com     <http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker> -

I picked up some basil plants, and want to put in a window box with them
and some other herbs. What are the current rules for kilayim outside
of EY? Will I run afoul of them? I learned the masechet in the mishnah
once, and found it very confusing; I've recently started the masechet
in Y'mi with RYGB's tapes, but haven't gotten into the later peraqim
which discuss gardening.

Is there some simple description, preferably in English?

   - jon baker    jjbaker@panix.com     <http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker> -

On April 23, 2006, Eli Turkel wwrote:
> According to Halakha one should not have a meal in the late afternoon
> before Pesach because it takes away from the taste of the Matzah.

I think you're confusing the end of the seder with the beginning of the
seder. "Ein maftirim achar hapesach afikoman" is for the reason you said.
The reason for "Arvei pesachim samuch l'mincha lo yochal adam... "is in
order that he should eat the matzas mitzvah l'tayavon.

Perhaps that's what you meant.

Simcha Coffer

R' Velvel Montrealer  [velvel gurkow <velvelg@yahoo.com>]  writes:
> Is there any reason why not to delete Sheimos from  the computer? How
> about printing out a copy and burying that with the  Sheimos, and then
> deleting the file?

If you print out sheimos you must bury that paper. There is no problem
with deleting files and certainly no reason to print out the file first
before deleting it, just so you can bury it! (If I understand what you
were asking!)

You don't have to put the hyphen in the word G-d on screen either,
since erasing the screen is not erasing any mamushus, but I always put
the hyphen in just in case someone does print out the screen -- even
though I realize this is a chumrah and not halachic necessity.

 -Toby  Katz
=============

RZS:
> I'm not sure how the supermarket could help, even if it were keen on the
> idea. But here's an idea: arrange with the goy who buys the chametz,
> and who intends to sell it back after shabbat, that he gives the
> sellers permission to dip into his stock and take whatever they like,
> on the understanding that the final price he will be paid will include
> what was taken while it was his. This is the same as eating something
> while standing in queue at the supermarket, with the owner's express or
> implied permission.

> Indeed, I would say that this is permitted even if no explicit arrangement
> has been made, since anan sahadi that the goy is not makpid....

Is this the svara used by those who are mattir chametz (after Pesach) from a
store that "sold" their chametz, but continued to sell it to customers?

Michael Y. Kopinsky
m1@kopinsky.com

Michael Y. Kopinsky wrote:
> Is this the svara used by those who are mattir chametz (after Pesach)
> from a store that "sold" their chametz, but continued to sell it to
> customers?

This sevara is not necessary for that purpose.  Let's suppose I'm wrong,
and it is assur to take from the goy's stock without his explicit
permission.  Let's even assume, for some reason, that the store owner
did not obtain such permission.  OK, so he's a thief.  An honest goy
should therefore not buy chametz from him during Pesach, since he would
be receiving stolen goods.  But after Pesach, he has bought the chametz
back from the goy, so what's the problem?  Is there some issur in buying,
from a known thief, goods that you know to be honestly his?

-- 
Zev Sero
zev@sero.name

"kennethgmiller@juno.com" <kennethgmiller@juno.com> wrote:
> The act of walking to the edge of the techum is something which would
> not have been done except for the need to be there after Shabbos. It
> is not like sleeping on Shabbos to be awake on Motzaei Shabbos, since a
> nap is a normal Shabbos activity anyway, and (if one avoids stating the
> reason for the nap) the only difference is mental. But although walking
> is indeed a normal Shabbos activity, I'd think that a walk all the way
> to the edge of the techum is unnaturally long, and easily noticable as
> a maaseh hachana. Why isn't it?

Precisely because it's *not* an unnaturally long walk. It only seems that
way to we dwellers of the megacities, to whom the whole topic of techum
shabbat is an obscure and quaint corner of halacha, of only theoretical
application. But for those live in smaller villages and settlements,
the techum is a real place, not that far away, and one must actually
take care not to cross it in the course of a normal shabbat stroll.
Witness the story of Acher and R Meir.

-- 
Zev Sero
zev@sero.name

T613K@aol.com wrote:
> next year in  Jerusalem and will they have "Korbon Pesach Take-Out"
> in Meah Shearim,  I wonder? I REALLY don't want to roast a goat on
> a spit..."

Would Meah Shearim halachically be considered Yerushalayim vis-a-vis
the eating of kodshim? My impression had been that only the area within
the walls are included, unless the future Sanhedrin of 71 would add to
the area of the city - but if they used this method to add to the city,
is there a maximum area that can be appended to it?

 - Joshua

Joshua Meisner wrote:
> T613K@aol.com <mailto:T613K@aol.com> wrote:

> Would Meah Shearim halachically be considered Yerushalayim vis-a-vis the 
> eating of kodshim?  My impression had been that only the area within the 
> walls are included, unless the future Sanhedrin of 71 would add to the 
> area of the city - but if they used this method to add to the city, is 
> there a maximum area that can be appended to it?

The current walls do not correspond to the ones bizman habayit anyway.
And the next Sanhedrin will set new boundaries, which will include all
of Eretz Yisrael, until the gates of Damascus. People who live in the
Galil or the Negev will presumably be sorted into the first session
of Korban Pesach, so they will have time to drive home with the korban
before yomtov.

-- 
Zev Sero
zev@sero.name

On Wed, Apr 12, 2006 at 03:05:25PM -0400, R Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer wrote:
:  From the Mishpacha essay cited by RSBA. It is a wonderful essay that I
: think should be shared, I just added a few comments.
...
: HaRav Moshe Shmuel Shapira, shlita: The Nigun of Reb Itchele of Volozhin
...
: Interesting. Emotional Misnagdus.

You seem to be slipping into a characature of chassidus = passionate,
misnagdus = intellectual. (The same charicature RSC tried to cast my
words into in <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol17/v17n013.shtml#09>.)

Similarly, RET slips the distinction to a slightly different one when
on Tue, Apr 18, 2006 at 10:44:49AM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: The article reminds of the famous story of someone who visited Volozhin
: and spent the first seder at ther Bet Halevi where the entire seder was
: attention to every chmurah and afterwards R. YB Soloveitchik be,oaned
: that they probably weren't yotzeh. The second seder was by the Netziv
: where the emphasis was on enjoying the seder and aftrewards the Netziv
: remarked that he was sure that G-d also enjoyed the seder. The conclusion
: was that there has always been two ways of addressing Yiddishkeit through
: fear or through love.

RET makes the distinction to be chassidus = ahavah, misnagdus = yir'ah.

But I think RYGB was more accurate when he associated this issue with
"forks" -- deveiqus vs sheleimus.

WRT deveiqus, someone who defines yahadus as the quest for deveiqus
(Chabad aside for the moment) will see deveiqus experientially. The quest
for sheleimus (whether through talmud Torah, mussar, etc...) doesn't
allow for that. By definition, one can not trust one's ability to assess
experience as being authentic -- sheleimus is a goal, not yet a fully
implemented. There is the constand throught, checking and doulbe-checking
oneself, the din, etc...

This is obviously only a pair of tendencies, not a defining issue like the
original deveiqus vs temimus. Chassidim only tend to be more experiential
whereas misnagdim only tend to be more analytical-comprehension oriented.

What makes this case interesting is that here we have a chiyuv lir'os/lehar'os
es atzmo. The analytic-procedural requirement is to have an event with
expertiential overtones.

Thus the tendency for what RYGB saw as "emotional misnagdus".

As for yir'ah vs ahavah. In Slabodka thought (leveraging from
BeIqvos haYir'ah <http://www.aishdas.org/raek/yirah.pdf>), ahavah is a
prerequisite for yir'ah which in turn is a prerequisite for simchah. To
coin my own mashal:

When are you happier -- at your own daughter's chasunah, or at someone
else's? Why? Your love for your daughter. This in turn informs fear;
one is more scared of what the shidduch will bring when it's one's own
child. And it's because of that fear, because of the realization of the
magnitude of the event, that the event can hold the joy it does.

Yir'ah comes from ahavah. There is no "versus".

(Obviously I'm talking about yir'as Hashem, not yir'as ha'onesh. Yir'as
ha'onesh is as much a prerequisite for true avodas Hashem as is bribing
kids with candy.)

On Wed, Apr 12, 2006 at 03:05:25PM -0400, R Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer wrote:
: HaGaon HaRav Chaim Kanievsky, shlita: Halachic Meticulousness
...
: Rav Chaim reads out the Haggadah in a deliberate manner, pronouncing
: every word clearly, and the atmosphere he engenders is a serious one. He
: stops from time to time to give an explanation of the words or to say a
: vort. Only during Hallel, when it's time to say the words B'tzeis Yisrael
: miMitzrayim, does the atmosphere lighten up somewhat, as Rav Chaim sings
: this passage joyously. Those who have made the Seder with him say that
: his face seems to blaze with fire as he sings, becoming covered with a
: red glow. "He looks like a malach Elokim," as they put it, an angel on
: high. The piyut, V'hi sh'Amdah, is also sung, and Rav Chaim sings it
: a second time, turning his eyes Heavenward as the company watches him
: with a tremor of awe.

: After the Seder, Rav Chaim says Shir haShirim, the Song of Songs, and
: then sits and learns Torah until dawn -- or until sleep overtakes him.

:  --
: Misnaged plus -- but who would have thought otherwise?

You see these last two paragraphs, from "Only during Hallel" onward as
"Misnaged plus"??? To me it reads as the unltimate in experiential
deveiqus.


On a totally different note... RYGB quoted in the ellided portion
the description of RCK's seder:
: At the Seder table, Rav Chaim is exceedingly careful about every one of
: the mitzvos of this night, making sure everything is done according to
: halachah in every detail. For maror, he uses chazeres in the quantity
: prescribed by the Chazon Ish, spooning a little charoses onto the
: vegetable.

At my father's seder, we were taught the Briskism (via RYBS) that one
dips the maror in charoses -- but no charoses should remain on the maror,
as that would get in the way of the chiyuv to taste the maror.

My wife grew up in a (non-frum) home where they laid it on. And was NOT
going to change.

This became a minor debate at the table for a few years, at least until
we had enough children for my parents to come to us rather than the
other way around.

I was therefore startled to see that my wife's practice had the backing
of a certified gadol. Does anyone know what he does with the Brisker
objection?


A third topic...
On Mon, Apr 17, 2006 at 08:31:46AM -0700, Harry Maryles wrote:
:> HaRav Aharon Leib Steinman, shlita: Stringent...  Until eight years
:> ago, Rav Steinman used to make the Seder in Jerusalem, at the home of
:> his son Rav Moshe Steinman. He would travel there on the number 400 bus
:> from Bnei Brak. 

: That's interesting. We know that Rav Eliezer used to "praise the Atzlanim
: that didn't leave their own houses on a Regel. (Sukkah 27B)" Doesn't Rav
: Steinman, as a Machmir, agree to this value...even if we don't Paskin

One can't deduce much, since RMS lised in Y-m. Going to Y-m for regalim
has a much older mesorah than R' Eliezer.... <g> Perhaps RALS holds
that one can be mequayeim re'iyah by seeing the current floor of the
Har haBayis, or just feels the lezeicher is a greater value.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 11th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        1 week and 4 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Netzach sheb'Gevurah: What is imposing about
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            strict justice?

ephraim.stulberg@utoronto.ca wrote:
> At lunch yesterday, we were discussing what happens in Israel when
> the seventh, and final, day of Pesach is on Friday (in Galut it is
> impossible for Pesach to end on a Friday).

My daughter Chagit was born on chol hamoed Presach on such a year, 14
years ago. When it became clear that we were going to have a baby on chol
hamoed, I started thinking that if it would be a boy, we would be having
a shalom zachor on Friday night, motzei Peasach. I was thinking that I
could ask a sfardi neighbor to prepare KFP arbes for us. If necessary,
I believe that I could myself have bought and prepared such arbes;
kitniot are not subject to baal yeroe, and one can buy and prepare
things on chol hamoed for use on Shabbat immediately after the chag,
particulalrly if you make an eiruv tavshilin. Agreeing with RZS, I
further believe I could have cooked the arbes not only on chol hamoed,
but on Yom Tov shel Pesach iself, since I could serve them to sfardi
guests. (I similalrly believe that a non-cohen can, bzman hamikdash,
cook and bake truma on Yom Tov to serve to cohanim)

Obviously, since it was Chagit and not Chaggai who was born, all this
remained in the geder of drosh v'kabel sachar.

Saul Mashbaum

*********************


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