Avodah Mailing List

Volume 17 : Number 017

Saturday, April 22 2006

• RE: preparing for the second seder
• Mevushal Wines
• A Sefer Torah Presently Located in a Reform Temple
• Re: A Sefer Torah Presently Located in a Reform Temple
• Re: Tfillin/shatz
• Re: Tfillin/shatz
• Re: preparing for the second seder
• RE: preparing for the second seder
• Seventh Day of Pesach on Friday
• RE: Mevushal Wines
• Re: Bracha on Pizza (was: Mezonot Bread)
• Re: Bracha on Pizza (was: Mezonot Bread)
• Re: Mevushal Wines
• Re: Mevushal Wines
• Re: Aruch Hashulchan vs. Mishna Berura
• Re: kitniyos and minhagim
• tefillin during Chol Ha'moed
• Re: Women and Hallel during the Seder

On April 17, 2006, David Riceman wrote:
> From: "S & R Coffer" <rivkyc@sympatico.ca>
>> In general I don't remember the halacha of machshich al hatechum
>> applying to mitzvos in general, just the mitzvah of kevura. I don't have
>> seforim in front of me so I may be wrong.

> You are wrong. OH 306:1 "Mahshich al hathum l'havi b'hemto ..." cf. MB
> SK 3 (and BH SK 3).

OK. But I'd like to mention that hachana and machshich al hatechum are
different halachos. Machshich is assur midivrei sofrim because of mimtzo
cheftzicha. Hachana is assur because...I don't remember but it's not
mimtzo cheftzicha.

Also, walking on Shabbos (which is the only issue associated with being
machshich al hatechum) is not a maaseh chol. However, the items that are
assur mishum hachana are normally nikar as things that are uvdin d'chol
and require a mitzvah to be machshir them (someone was mi'orer to me off
list that kivura is not the only mitzvah which supersedes hachshacha;
all mitzvos do...this is a correct halacha).

I suppose the preceding was me taking another stab at answering RDR's
kushya in general although as relates to the second seder he still has a
ta'anah regarding the 'mitzvah' of kidey shelo yishnu hatenokos. Perhaps,
as I wrote before, it's not a big enough mitzvah to be docheh the
consideration of hachana because it doesn't apply in EY and in galus the
ikkar seder was already preformed the night before v'adayin tzarich iyun.

Simcha Coffer

Carmel white zinfandel 2004 Samson, indicates that it is DiNo KeDin
YaYin MeVuShal.
King David Concorde says "are considered to be Yayin Mevushal"

Can anyone explain these circumlocutions? Why are they uncomfortable
saying that it is Mevushal?

meir

I am aware of the following circumstances:

An Orthodox Shul lent a Sefer Torah to a Reform Temple about 60 years ago.
Leaving aside all questions of ownership, gift or adverse possession,
I am interested in finding any discussion in Responsa or other Rabbinic
literature that may touch on whether it is an Halachic imperative to
attempt to retrieve it or whether its use (misuse?) (abuse?) - such as
being read by a female Reform Rabbi - has put its status somehow beyond
the pale.

Thanks,
DJH 

David J Havin wrote:
> I am aware of the following circumstances:
> An Orthodox Shul lent a Sefer Torah to a Reform Temple about 60 years ago.
> Leaving aside all questions of ownership, gift or adverse possession,
> I am interested in finding any discussion in Responsa or other Rabbinic
> literature that may touch on whether it is an Halachic imperative to
> attempt to retrieve it or whether its use (misuse?) (abuse?) - such as
> being read by a female Reform Rabbi - has put its status somehow beyond
> the pale.

Igros Moshe YD I # 174 page 347 discusses selling a Sefer Torah to a
non observant Conservative Shul. He permits selling a new one since it
will be treated with respect but not one that is currently being used
by observant Jews since the change of use is degrading. He does not
deal with the issue of abuse.

Daniel Eidensohn

From: "Arie Folger" <afolger@aishdas.org>
> BTW, one old, forgotten minhag was to keep the tefillin until the end,
> whether on Rosh 'Hodesh or 'Hol haMo'ed.

The end of what?

David Riceman

Reb David Riceman wrote:
> From: "Arie Folger" <afolger@aishdas.org>
>> BTW, one old, forgotten minhag was to keep the tefillin until the end,
>> whether on Rosh 'Hodesh or 'Hol haMo'ed.

> The end of what?

The end of davenning, i.e., after mussaf.

Good Shabbos,

Arie Folger

From: "S & R Coffer" <rivkyc@sympatico.ca>
> However, the items that are
> assur mishum hachana are normally nikar as things that are uvdin d'chol

Clearing the table? Setting the table? What else do you need to do to
set up for the seder?

David Riceman 

On April 21, 2006, David Riceman wrote:
>> However, the items that are
>> assur mishum hachana are normally nikar as things that are uvdin d'chol

> Clearing the table? Setting the table? 

Yes. Like I mentioned, I don't remember the mekor for hachana m'shabbos
l'shabbos but apparently any ma'aseh which is associated with mundane
activity, such as cleaning and setting, can only be done for the
tzorech of that day's Yom Tov and not for any future Shabbos/Yom tov. In
fact, the only reason one can clear of the table on Shabbos after the
afternoon seuda is likavod Shabbos so the table shouldn't look messy
with keilim, and the dirt can be cleared off because of the din of
graf shel re'ei. Obviously then, cleaning, clearing, setting etc. is
considered a mundane activity which requires special dispensations to
engage in. OTOH, walking (which is the only activity associated with
hachshacha) is obviously not considered a mundane activity (walking to
shul, walking to shiurim etc).

Simcha Coffer

At lunch yesterday, we were discussing what happens in Israel when
the seventh, and final, day of Pesach is on Friday (in Galut it is
impossible for Pesach to end on a Friday). How do they get bread for
lechem mishneh? It seems to me that there are a number of possibilities,
each of them problematic:

1) Eat matzo. The issues here are twofold. Firstly, there is an issue of
quasi-bal tosif. Regarding sukkot, the gemara and S.A discuss a case of
someone who is unable to relocate from his sukka following the last day of
sukkot. We require him to make some sort of change in his sukka, such as
lighting candles in it (if it's small), in order to "disqualify" it and
make clear to all that he does not mean to perform a mitzva. But what
would one do to differentiate with matza? Egg matza (for Ashkenazim)?

As well, my sister-in-law pointed out that Sefaradim do not recite
hamotzee on matza outside of Pesach, the reason being that they hold it
to be an "unnatural" way to eat bread ("coseis" - M.B.). Presumably then,
even if they were to be "kovea seudah" on matzo, they could still not
say hamotzi.

2) (Re)Acquire bread from a gentile on Shabbat. There are certainly
permissible ways of doing this, but my local supermarket is less than
keen on the idea.

I am curious to hear what the practice is.

Ephraim Stulberg

On April 20, 2006, Meir Rabi wrote:
> Carmel white zinfandel 2004 Samson, indicates that it is DiNo KeDin
> YaYin MeVuShal.
> King David Concorde says "are considered to be Yayin Mevushal"
> Can anyone explain these circumlocutions?

Yes, as follows.

> Why are they uncomfortable
> saying that it is Mevushal?

Because the cooking process reduces the quality of the wine just as
it does for any food that is intended to be ne'echal chai. In order to
maintain the integrity and quality of an uncooked wine and yet satisfy
the halachic parameters of yayin mevushal, the wineries have come up with
a process called "flash" heating. The wine is heated to the appropriate
halachic temperature and then instantly cooled thus (supposedly) retaining
its non-mevushal qualities while simultaneously satisfying the halachic
criterion of bishul.

Simcha Coffer  

Having reviewed the relevant Taz and Beur Halacha and others over Yom
Tov, I'd like to suggest the following: I suspect that the discussion
amoung the poskim has very little to do with whether or not we should
consider Pashtida to be a real category as distinct from Pas HaBaah
BKisnin. Rather, I think that they are discussing different sorts of
stuffed breads, and describing which ones are eaten as snacks (mezonos)
and which ones are meal-foods (hamotzi).

One example of this is Aruch Hashulchan 168:46, which describes kreplach
as a type of pashtida, but I have never seen any kreplach other than
cooked in a soup.

Another example is the franks-in-blankets which some posters (even
those in the anti-Taz camp) have conceded to be a snack food, despite
being meat-filled.

Finally, suppose we shift the focus away from the emotionally-charged
pizza, and examine another pizza-shop item: calzone. One could argue that
calzone is even more clearly PHBK than pizza is, because the flavoring of
a pizza is merely sitting on top, but is properly stuffed inside of the
calzone as PHBK is defined to be. But I have never imagined calzone to
be mezonos; I just always presumed it to be a meal-food and hamotzi. And,
for the sake of clarity, let's say that we're talking about a small piece
of a regular-sized calzone, so that we avoid issues of "keday kevias
seudah". Is there anyone in Avodahland who would suggest saying mezonos?

Akiva Miller

R' Akiva Miller wrote:
> Having reviewed the relevant Taz and Beur Halacha and others over Yom
> Tov, I'd like to suggest the following: I suspect that the discussion
> amoung the poskim has very little to do with whether or not we should
> consider Pashtida to be a real category as distinct from Pas HaBaah
> BKisnin. Rather, I think that they are discussing different sorts of
> stuffed breads, and describing which ones are eaten as snacks (mezonos)
> and which ones are meal-foods (hamotzi).

That is how the MA understood Pashtida. The Taz seems to consider Pashtida
to be actual PHBK. See Ba'er Heiteiv who clearly spells out Shitas Taz
on the matter.

> One example of this is Aruch Hashulchan 168:46, which describes kreplach
> as a type of pashtida, but I have never seen any kreplach other than
> cooked in a soup.

Burekas would fit that bill. The dough is generally puff pastry or
fillo, both contain considerable amounts of fat, which would be Mezonos.
[Pizza dough has oil too, I always wondered whether that was another
factor why it is commonly Mezonos, or whether the amount of oil was
Halakhically insufficient]

> Another example is the franks-in-blankets which some posters (even
> those in the anti-Taz camp) have conceded to be a snack food, despite
> being meat-filled.

That would be consistent with the MA and the MB, as they consider the
Mehaber in 168:17 to be stating that very Halakhah. (Although mini
franks are probably similar to burekas as they are commonly wrapped in
puff pastry.)

> Finally, suppose we shift the focus away from the emotionally-charged
> pizza, and examine another pizza-shop item: calzone. One could argue that
> calzone is even more clearly PHBK than pizza is, because the flavoring of
> a pizza is merely sitting on top, but is properly stuffed inside of the
> calzone as PHBK is defined to be. But I have never imagined calzone to
> be mezonos; I just always presumed it to be a meal-food and hamotzi. And,
> for the sake of clarity, let's say that we're talking about a small piece
> of a regular-sized calzone, so that we avoid issues of "keday kevias
> seudah". Is there anyone in Avodahland who would suggest saying mezonos?

Farvos Nisht? A calzone is just a larger piece of pizza dough folded
over the filling. Depending on the size of the calzone it may be the
equivalent of eating a few slices of pizza. But eating a small piece is
no different than eating one slice.

I have not seen a distinction made between topping and filling WRT
Pashtida. While the latter does fit the name Kisnin a lot better, there
seems to be no S'vara to differentiate between filling and topping.

Jacob Farkas

R' Simcha Coffer wrote:
> Because the cooking process reduces the quality of the wine just as
> it does for any food that is intended to be ne'echal chai. In order to
> maintain the integrity and quality of an uncooked wine and yet satisfy
> the halachic parameters of yayin mevushal, the wineries have come up with
> a process called "flash" heating. The wine is heated to the appropriate
> halachic temperature and then instantly cooled thus (supposedly) retaining
> its non-mevushal qualities while simultaneously satisfying the halachic
> criterion of bishul.

If it really doesn't affect the flavor, appearance, or texture, why is
it Halakhically considered Mevushal post flash pasteurization?

Jacob Farkas

On Fri, Apr 21, 2006 at 03:03:08PM -0400, Jacob Farkas wrote:
: If it really doesn't affect the flavor, appearance, or texture, why is 
: it Halakhically considered Mevushal post flash pasteurization?

This was discussed by R' Jachter in a parashah sheet recently. I'm
writing the following from my recollection with no access to the sources.
Consider it raising the issues with an invite for everyone to correct me.

That's what RSZA holds -- and therefore doesn't consider such wine to
be "mevushal". ROY holds that it's okay because the wine /is/ reduced
through cooking. Just because the vat is sealed, the lost alcohol and
other liquids (alcohol evaporates more readily) fall back in. But in ROY's
view, that's a 2nd step which doesn't pasl the bishul. Rov poseqim seem
to hold similarly, guessing from what has become norm amongst machshirim.

There are also two more reasons to question the applicability to RSZA's
pesaq:

1- RSZA assumes that most wine is pasteurized for health
reasons. According to R' Herzog of Kedem, mainstream non-kosher wine
is typicall not. (The highbrow stuff certainly not.) Gallo, for example
will only pasteurize the wine if the harvest was "off".

2- In the early '80s, when RSZA wrote his teshuvah, only a few
mumchim could tell the difference. Since then, with the explosion of
quality kosher wines, the frum community now has more and more amateur
vinophiles who can taste the degredation in quality. It's no longer
true that nearly no one can tell the difference in flavor, appearance
and texture. (Although I'll admit I can't.)

So, even if you're fully prepared to accept RSZA's as final pesaq,
the metzi'us changed. RJF's "if" in "if it really doesn't affect..." 
is simply a false hypothetical.

:-)BBii!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 8th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        1 week and 1 day in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Chesed sheb'Gevurah: When is holding back a
Fax: (270) 514-1507                           Chesed for another?

On Mon, Apr 17, 2006 at 01:49:02PM -0400, Phyllostac@aol.com wrote:
: From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
:> ...The conversion of the MB from a collection of acharonim who
:> post-date the standard SA page layout to a pesaq was a campaign by a
:> number of American roshei yeshivos -- not the belief CC himself.

: I have read/heard that before. Does anyone have more details, e.g. when
: exactly this effort started, which RY's were involved, etc.? It was
: davka RY's in the USA and not elsewhere ?

Perhaps you heard it from RSM, back in
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol09/v09n055.shtml#04>. There is also
a discussion back in vol 1 (Aug 98) where the campaign to make the MB
a standard for pesaq is associate with R' Aharon Kotler. See RDE's post
at <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol01/v01n026.shtml> and responses.

:-)BBii!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 8th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        1 week and 1 day in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Chesed sheb'Gevurah: When is holding back a
Fax: (270) 514-1507                           Chesed for another?

On Sat, Apr 15, 2006 at 05:39:36PM -0400, Shaya Potter wrote:
: we also seem to have inconsistent practice in how we apply our minhagim,
: and hence I'm also interested in this "hilchos minhagim" discussion.

Minhag is currently in an odd state.

Historically, the dominant factor was minhag hamaqom. We now have
interleaved qehillos, no single practice per maqom. One is supposed to
abandon minhag avos, shelo ya'asu agudos agudos. (To use an expression
frequently associated with tefillin on cho"l.) With no one to assert
what that norm is, minhag avos currently dominates -- but historically
this is pretty atypical.

: "Everyone" (minus those who follow the chacham tzvi) will tell you that
: a chutznik is supposed to keep 2 (give or take a "half" a day) days of
: yom tov in EY, but I've never heard someone say that a Chutznik who puts
: on tefillin during Chol Ha'moed should put on tefillin, at least b'tzinah.

Yom Tov sheini shel galiyos is a beryah bifnei atzmah. I know the gemara
uses the lashon of "minhag avoseihem beyadeihem" but it applies to new
chu"l qehillos that post-dated churban bayis. It would seem to be a din
derabbanan to preserve the atmosphere of qidush hachodesh al pi re'iyah
more than a typical minhag.

Gut Voch!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 9th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        1 week and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Gevurah: When is strict justice
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            most appropriate?

From: Shaya Potter <>
> "Everyone" (minus those who follow the chacham tzvi) will tell you that
> a chutznik is supposed to keep 2 (give or take a :half" a day) days of
> yom tov in EY, but I've never heard someone say that a Chutznik who puts
> on tefillin during Chol Ha'moed should put on tefillin, at least b'tzinah.

As I have mentioned in another post, the SR z'l did instruct bochurim
in EY to do so.
Also in the kehilla of Rav Dushinsky there are many [those of OB.
background presumably] who leig tefillin at home and say korbanos etc
and then go daven in shul without tefillin.

I am sure that there are others who do so as well.

SBA

On Tue, Apr 18, 2006 at 09:37:25AM -0400, Jacob Farkas wrote:
: Hallel on Pesah is a Hiyuv, even for women. Z'miros on Shabbos while nice,
: is not obligatory, even for men. It is plausible that one could have no
: issue with women singing Hallel, as they are under obligation and thus
: may not be required to suppress their expression, as opposed to Z'miros
: where no one "needs" to sing, and those who do may add value and meaning
: to the Shabbos table, but at the same time it may be better not to sing
: (following this line of reasoning) if it comes into conflict with issues
: of Qol B'Isha.

This has interesting implications on the necessity of interpreting
"vateitzei Miryam" as her leaving so that the women can sing shiras
hayam without being heard by the men.

Not that I'm convinced of RJF's proposal or either of the shitos
about the pasuq...

Gut Voch!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 9th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        1 week and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Gevurah: When is strict justice
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            most appropriate?

*********************


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