Avodah Mailing List

Volume 17 : Number 015

Monday, April 17 2006

• Re: kitniyos and minhagim
• "Yirei Hashem" in Hallel--Who Are They?
• Re: preparing for the second seder
• RE: preparing for the second seder
• Tfillin/shatz
• RE: Bracha on Pizza (was: Mezonot Bread
• Re: Bracha on Pizza (was: Mezonot Bread
• RE: Bracha on Pizza (was: Mezonot Bread)
• Re: Bracha on Pizza (was: Mezonot Bread)
• Aruch Hashulchan vs. Mishna Berura
• RE: Sanz Seder
• Re: Forks in the Road to the Seder
• Rav Moshe Shmuel Shapira and Hallel in Shul on Pesach night
• Re: kitniyos and minhagim
• Re: kitniyos and minhagim
• Erroneous Delivery Of Wigs Sets Off Copyright-Infringement Suit
• Re: preparing for the second seder
• Re: Women and Hallel during the Seder

On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 04:26 -0500, CBK wrote:
> Also, does anyone know where can be found "hilchos minhagim"? I mean
> everyone will tell you that you have to follow certain minhagim if you
> meet certain criteria. But who says? Where are these rules written? Why
> can Sephardim eat grasshoppers and practice polygamy and Ashkenazim can't?
> Who says and where are these rules writen?

we also seem to have inconsistent practice in how we apply our minhagim,
and hence I'm also interested in this "hilchos minhagim" discussion.

"Everyone" (minus those who follow the chacham tzvi) will tell you that
a chutznik is supposed to keep 2 (give or take a :half" a day) days of
yom tov in EY, but I've never heard someone say that a Chutznik who puts
on tefillin during Chol Ha'moed should put on tefillin, at least b'tzinah.

Hallel quotes three passages from two chapters of Tehillim with the same
progression of Yisroel, Beis Aharon, and Yirei Hashem:

"Yisroel b'tach baShem...Beis Aharon bit'chu baShem...Yirei Hashem bitchu
baShem..." and "Y'varech ess Beis Yisroel, Yevarech ess Beis Aharon,
Yehvareich Yirei Hashem..." (Tehillim 115 -- "Lo Lannu"), and:

"Yomar na Yisroel ki l'olom chasdo...yomru na Beis Aharon...Yomru na
Yirei Hashem... (Tehillim 118);

And in pesukei D'zimrah L'Shabbos we recite another passage from Tehillim
(135) with the same progression (albeit with an additional component of
"Beis HaLevy)": "Beis Yisroel barchu ess Hashem, Beis Aharon barchu ess
Hashem, Beis HaLevy barchu ess Hashem, Yirei Hashem barchu ess Hashem.

That Dovid Hamelech repeatedly divided up klall Yisroel into these
categories is noteworthy in itself. But also interesting is the issue
of just who are the "Yirei Hashem" he is referring to?

One might assume that they are a narrower subset among the Kohanim
("Beis Aharon") and non-Kohanim who are at a higher level of spiritual
development then the average Yisroel or Kohen . However, any of the
meforshim normally printed in our Tanachs who deal with this all seem to
assume it must be a group that was otherwise not at all mentioned. Thus,
Rashi takes the "Yirei Hashem" of 118:4 to be a reference to the
Leviyim who, unlike in Tehillim 135, are otherwise unmentioned. But who,
then, are the "Yirei Hashem" in Tehillim 135, where the Leviyyim /are/
already specified?

One may be surprised to learn that according to Rashi on Tehillim 115
and 135 (and Metsudos includes 118 as well) the reference is to geirim;
and similarly, the Ibn Ezra on Tehillim 115, 118 and 135 (as well as
another reference in Tehillim 22:24) takes the "Yirei Hashem" that Dovid
Hamelech is referring to as gentiles!

A precedent for calling an enlightened gentile a "yarei ess d'var Elokim,"
if not a "yarei Hashem" (without proposing a major difference in meaning)
would be the Torah's term for those Egyptians who during Makkos Dever
took Moshe Rabbeynu's warning seriously and kept their animals from
staying outside (Sh'mos 9:20).

Zvi Lampel

From: "Zev Sero" <zev@sero.name>
> Machshich al hatechum is permitted because it's not apparent what you're
> doing -- you might simply be going for a late shabbos shpatzir out in
> the fields. Anyone seeing you set the table immediately knows that
> you're doing it for use later.

But the only reason you need it not to be apparent is because not
everyone knows you have a d'var mitzva to attend to. On the afternoon
of Pesah everyone knows full well that you're setting the table for the
second seder.

From: "S & R Coffer" <rivkyc@sympatico.ca>
> Perhaps the mitzvah of "la salin nivlaso" which engenders the requirement
> of an expedited kevura supersedes the consideration of hachana meshabos
> l'shabbos whereas setting the table is not a specific mitzvah.

But starting the seder as soon as possible kdei shelo yishanu hatinokos
is.

David Riceman 

On April 16, 2006, David Riceman wrote:
> From: "S & R Coffer" <rivkyc@sympatico.ca>

>> Perhaps the mitzvah of "lo salin nivlaso" which engenders the requirement
> > of an expedited kevura supersedes the consideration of hachana meshabos
> > l'shabbos whereas setting the table is not a specific mitzvah.

> But starting the seder as soon as possible kdei shelo yishanu hatinokos
> is.

Perhaps not as important as a quick kevura, especially in light of the
fact that the kids already experienced the seder the night before. In
fact, in EY this dynamic would never even occur (unless for chutzniks
sheda'atam lachzor). In general I don't remember the halacha of machshich
al hatechum applying to mitzvos in general, just the mitzvah of kevura. I
don't have seforim in front of me so I may be wrong. But if I'm not,
the mehalech would seem to be that only the mitzvah of kevura has the
koach of being docheh the prohibition of hachana.

Simcha Coffer

IIRC in previous gilgulim we've discussed the minhag of the shatz not
taking off tfillin to say hallel on chol hamoed (brought down in the ezrat
torah luach) the usual reason given is tircha dtzibura. Does anyone know
if this was/is the practice even in a minyan where all the participants
wore tfillin? If so, when did the participants take off their tfillin
(and why then)?

Moadim lsimcha 
Joel rich

From owner-avodah@aishdas.org  Mon Apr 17 08:11:09 2006
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Subject: Re: preparing for the second seder 
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From: "S & R Coffer" <rivkyc@sympatico.ca>
> In general I don't remember the halacha of machshich al hatechum
> applying to mitzvos in general, just the mitzvah of kevura. I don't have
> seforim in front of me so I may be wrong.

You are wrong. OH 306:1 "Mahshich al hathum l'havi b'hemto ..." cf. MB
SK 3 (and BH SK 3).

David Riceman 

Jacob Farkas <jfarkas@compufar.com> wrote:
>Gantz K'lal Yisrael practically makes Mezonos on 1 slice, like the
>Taz (whether they have his Shitah in mind or otherwise). His P'saq is
>followed, period. 

And:
>... all contemporary Posqim who don't require haMotzee for one slice.

And:
>consider the fact that the Rabbonim have yet to issue a Maha'ah against
>this widely accepted custom.

I wonder whar Rabbi Yisroel Pinchos Bodner would say to that. See The
Halochos of Brochos vol.2 p.500, and footnote 47 beshem RSZA.

So to Rav Morderchai Gross. See Glatt Sheiris Yisroel 5766 p.94.

Akiva

> I wonder whar Rabbi Yisroel Pinchos Bodner would say to that. See The
> Halochos of Brochos vol.2 p.500, and footnote 47 beshem RSZA. So to Rav
> Morderchai Gross. See Glatt Sheiris Yisroel 5766 p.94.

Please quote; not everyone has easy access.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

Simcha Coffer wrote:
> I think you're taking my posek acharon thing too far. Let's forget I
> ever mentioned PA. All I mean to say is that if you have a near
> unanimous decision by poskim up until the most recent of the gedoley
> haPoskim who discusses the issue, the halacha seems clear. If the CI,
> R' Moshe, R' Ovadyah Yosef, R' Shlomo Zalman, R' Elyashiv, R' H.
> Shachter (whose pesakim I accepted when I was with the OU) would
> address the issue, I would be all ears. But they don't. So what's
> wrong with the MB?

If you assume that ROY hasn't dealt with the issue, then obviously
it's time for you to go and buy a copy of Yalkut Yosef. ROY's son,
R' Yitzchak Yosef collected his father's pesakim into the order of the
Shulchan Aruch (roughly), ROY reviewed every halacha and put his hashkama
on the sefer. For this reason, Yalkut Yosef is generally construed as
halacha according to ROY.

I only have the 2 volume Sefer Yalkut Yosef Kitzur Shulchan Aruch at
home, which gives all of the halachot but none of the analysis, so I
can't look up the reasons for various pesakim without going around the
corner to my shul. However the full set has extensive footnotes on all
of the halachot explaining the source of each ruling.

In Cheleck gimmel, Siman Kuf Samech Chet (Al eizeh pat mevarchin),
Halacha bet, he writes that the beracha on pizza is hamotzi.

 -Ken Bloom

>>consider the fact that the Rabbonim have yet to issue a Maha'ah against
>>this widely accepted custom.

> I wonder whar Rabbi Yisroel Pinchos Bodner would say to that. See The
> Halochos of Brochos vol.2 p.500, and footnote 47 beshem RSZA.

> So to Rav Morderchai Gross. See Glatt Sheiris Yisroel 5766 p.94.

Maha'ah as in the creation of a huge Tummul, as in NYC water, or Indian
hair wigs, etc.

There is no question that there are those who pasken like the MB. The
issue is that the Velt does not follow that P'saq, and we don't see
a Maha'ah of any sort by the Rabbonim. My speculation is twofold, 1)
Yesh al mi lismokh, shittas haTaz, and 2) Even if Shitas Taz is utterly
unacceptable, the fact that the only venture gained by such a protest
would be Netilas Yadayim, D'rabbanan, and Mutav Sheyiyu Shogegin.

I like R' Simcha's suggestion that those who wish to be satisfy all the
Shitos could wash on a piece of pita prior to eating a slice of pizza. I
would not go so far as to say that those who aren't are violating
Halakha P'suqah.

Jacob Farkas

From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
> ...The conversion of the MB from a collection of acharonim who
> post-date the standard SA page layout to a pesaq was a campaign by a
> number of American roshei yeshivos -- not the belief CC himself.

I have read/heard that before. Does anyone have more details, e.g. when
exactly this effort started, which RY's were involved, etc.? It was
davka RY's in the USA and not elsewhere ?

> I was told by my rebbe to follow the AhS over the MB. Many of my friends
> left Ner or Chaim Berlin with similar advice. So I question the CC being
> poseiq acharon, or whether one exists today. There isn't any one source
> who can compell people to follow one tzad over the other. (Speaking here
> of observant Ashkenazim in particular, but true in general too.)

R. J. Simcha Cohen, in his column in the Jewish Press recently (perhaps
even the current issue, or prior one) had an interesting story, along
the following lines, IIRC. Rav Henkin z"l said that the halocho is like
the Aruch Hashulchan over the Mishna Berura, as the AhS was the Gaon
of the generation, while the CC was the tzaddik hador. We don't pasken
like the tzaddik hador because he, due to his tzidkus, may have been
overly machmir.

Mordechai

Rabbi Bechhofer,

After the description of the Sanzer Rebbe's seder, you wrote:
>There are certain types of sedorim you can only prav if you are a Rebbe...
>:-(

I would like to know what aspect of his seder you find so enviable.

A gut'n moed,
Raffy Davidovich

R Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer <rygb@aishdas.org> wrote:
> HaRav Aharon Leib Steinman, shlita: Stringent...  Until eight years
> ago, Rav Steinman used to make the Seder in Jerusalem, at the home of
> his son Rav Moshe Steinman. He would travel there on the number 400 bus
> from Bnei Brak. 

That's interesting. We know that Rav Eliezer used to "praise the Atzlanim
that didn't leave their own houses on a Regel. (Sukkah 27B)" Doesn't Rav
Steinman, as a Machmir, agree to this value...even if we don't Paskin
like R. Eliezer? (I'm not sure whether we do or not.)

HM
Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 
Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/

The report from the English Mishpacha magazine, which was just posted,
had R. M.S. Shapira shlit"a saying hallel from the omud in Shul on
Pesach night. What Shul was that in ? In Shul, but not in his Yeshiva ?
I was taken aback reading it, since it's not in accordance with minhag
Ashkenaz or minhag Volozhin. I am surprised that he would take a leading,
active role in doing that. The Brisker Rav didn't say hallel then,
even in Eretz Yisroel (Shu"t Teshuvos vihanohogos 2:245) and the Netziv
wrote that way too (Shu"t Meishiv Dovor 1:13), among others. There is a
long discussion of the inyan in Shorshei Minhag Ashkenaz, cheilek aleph,
where I got the above mareh mekomos from.

Mordechai

R'n Shaya Potter <wrote:
> "Everyone" (minus those who follow the chacham tzvi) will tell you
> that a chutznik is supposed to keep 2 (give or take a :half" a day)
> days of yom tov in EY

I thought there were other poskem as well who held thus. (And it makes
sense, too, but probably the idea is too revolutionary for today's
people.)

ELPhM

CBK writes:
> Can anyone tell me how they would explain to a non-religious yet
> kiruvable thinking Jew, why descendants of European Jews don't eat
> kitniyos, just because hundreds of years ago there was a chance that
> chometz might be confused for kitniyos? I mean to explain it without
> coming on to "minhag avosainu b'yadainu". Why is an outdated custom
> still observed only by Jews descended from one plot of land (Europe)
> and no other Jews?

We have had many non-frum Jews at our sedorim over the years and we
don't explain kitniyos in any detail. It's enough to tell them that
we don't eat rice, corn and peas. If they ask why, we say they can be
made into flour that resembles chometz.

Depending on who's at the table, it may or may not come up that Jews
from different places have different customs, but I don't find that
people are upset by that.

You can't start getting into too many details with people who don't
know aleph bais. Think of the Four Sons. You can't overwhelm the
son who knows little with too much information on one arcane aspect of
hilchos Pesach.

In general, the less people know, the more they just accept whatever
you tell them. I don't mean "accept" as in "commit to do it themselves"
but "accept" as in, they assume that whatever you're telling them is
what all frum Jews do.

If you tell them frum Jews eat matza balls at the seder, they accept
that, and if you tell them that frum Jews keep their matza in a plastic
bag and never let it get wet, they'll accept that.

 -Toby  Katz
=============
CKVS

[From Vos iz Neias. I removed company names, calling them "S" and "T".
-mi]
> The trouble began, when a Federal Express deliveryman dropped off 16
> packages of wigs assembled and labeled in China to S. Fifteen of
> those boxes were addressed to S, but the last box was intended for
> T Wigs, which is located nearby, according to the suit. A S
> employee opened the box, which contained wigs bearing the S label
> even though they actually had been made for T, according to court
> documents.

> The owner of T Wiggs has demanded the return of the errant box. He
> declined to address the question of how the S's labels wound up
> on a shipment of T's wigs. Instead, he has demanded their return,
> and has threatened to call police. "I don't understand," he said in a
> telephone interview. "Certainly the material doesn't belong to them,
> even if they are making accusations about trade secrets."

1. The original opening seems to be in violation of takkanat rabeinu
gershom - if so, what are the halachik consequences?

2. Isn't the holding of the wigs by the non-owner gzeila?

Moadim Lsimcha
Joel Rich

From: "S & R Coffer" <rivkyc@sympatico.ca>
> In general I don't remember the halacha of machshich al hatechum
> applying to mitzvos in general, just the mitzvah of kevura. I don't have
> seforim in front of me so I may be wrong.

You are wrong. OH 306:1 "Mahshich al hathum l'havi b'hemto ..." cf. MB
SK 3 (and BH SK 3).

David Riceman 

R' Jacob Farkas asked:
> Having never been to a Seder where women recited Hallel or other portions
> of the Haggadah noticeably aloud, I was wondering if this Hoq Ya'aqov is
> common practice, or do others have greater participation by women. Does
> it change if the women present are closely related to the men at the table
> [according to the HY, seemingly not]?

My guess is that whether the women do/don't sing Hallel at the Seder is
closely related to whether the women do/don't sing Shalom Aleichem and
other Zemiros on a typical Shabbos. At least, that's how it is in my home.

Are there any among us where the women don't sing zemiros with the men
but do sing Hallel at the Seder? Or where they do sing zemiros on Shabbos
but refrain at the Seder?

Akiva Miller

*********************


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