Avodah Mailing List

Volume 17 : Number 009

Monday, April 10 2006

• RE: Bracha on Pizza (was: Mezonot Bread)
• RE: Bracha on Pizza (was: Mezonot Bread)
• Re: Corn - Is it Qitniyos?
• Corn as kitniyot
• to whom are we whispering ?
• RE: Avdus
• 10 pieces of Chometz
• Re: Corn - Is it Qitniyos?
• Cheshbon HaNefesh and 3 day yom tov
• Re: Cheshbon HaNefesh and 3 day yom tov
• Devarim she-ein la-hem shiur - Sippur yetzi'at Mitzrayim?
• Amira L'Akum on Yom Tov
• Re: Corn - Is it Qitniyos?
• RE: 10 pieces of Chometz
• Re: to whom are we whispering ?
• Re: 3 kedusha questons
• RE: to whom are we whispering ?

On April 6, 2006, Jacob Farkas wrote:
> R' Simcha Coffer wrote:
>> I'm being a touch repetitive here but why must we take a shiur of
>> kevias seuda into account when discussing the bracha on pizza? SA 168:17
>> states clearly that dough cooked together with meat, cheese or fish is
>> a hamotzee. MB adds that no minimum shiur is necessary, no standard
>> of kevias seuda need be implemented....

> According to the Mishna B'rura [OH 168:17 SQ 94] you are 100% correct,
> dough baked with meat, fish, or cheese is not PHBK and would thus be
> subject to washing and benching. There is no differentiation between
> Qovei'a Seuda or not QS, as the bread is not PHBK.

Actually, I was merely trying to be mifarsem his shita. I don't see any
other way to go.

> However, the Taz [OH 168:17 SQ 20] does not accept this position, his
> position is that when filled with meat, fish, or cheese the din is that
> the bread is PHBK, and that the SA in 168:17 is specifically intended
> for QS. If one is not QS, then according to the Taz, the din is that
> this bread is not PHBK. See Ba'er Hetev [168:17 SQ 36] who summarizes
> the position of the Taz and of the Magen Avraham, that according to the
> Taz all fillings qualify for PHBK, and according to the MA, only if the
> fillings are fruits and spices can they render the bread PHBK.

This Taz is practically a daas Yachid which is why I feel we cannot
follow his shita l'dina. Also, his shita does not fit into the mashmaus
of the michaber (I'm not the Taz's baar plugta...I'm just mentioning
an obvious ha'ara). I did mention in one of my previous emails that if
one wishes to be yotze the Taz's shita, he should make a hamotzei on an
item that is unquestionably bread (most Pizza stores also make falafel;
ask the proprietor for a piece of pita) however if one is in a situation
where bread is not available, since the majority shittos conclude that
Pashteida is a haMotzee, I don't see the heter of going l'kula and
following the Taz's shita.

> In the Bi'ur Halakha, the MB mentions that many Aharonim agree to the Taz,
> and he gives his reasons as to why he doesn't pasken like the Taz in MB.

I'm not sure which poskim the BH is referring to but they don't seem
to be the standard nosey keilim on SA. Perhaps they were modern day
poskim. The Biur Halacha quotes a clear psak from the Or Zarua and the
Shiltey Gibborim as his source. As far as the previously mentioned poskim,
the BH offers a suggestion as to why they erroneously concluded according
to the Taz based on an apparently open statement in the Sefer haTanya
(not the Tanya of R' Schneur Zalman) that apparently states exactly
as the Taz. However, upon further investigation, it is clear that the
michaber would not argue with the Tanya because the Tanya is referring
to appetizer-sized items that are clearly l'kinuach and not la'sova
such as the dogs in a blanket which I mentioned previously. Pashteida
(and hence Pizza) is clearly eaten l'mazon and not l'kinuach and thus,
concludes the Biur Halacha, it is definitely a hamotzee. The Biur Halacha
is not alone in this assessment. The Chemed Moshe and the Derech Chaim
write along similar lines. When annotating this halacha, the Gra says
"ayin M'A. When commenting, the Graz (SA haRav) states that the ikkar is
kisvara rishona (i.e. the MA). AFAIC, the halacha is clear. If anything
one should follow the Graz's suggestion and not eat this type ma'achal
outside of a real seuda. Unfortunately no one follows this suggestion
in America and thus there is no heter to be meikil like the Taz.

> It is pretty clear that the Minhag ha'Olam is to make Mezonos on Pizza
> [If you doubt this for even a minute, go to any Kosher Pizza store and
> observe],

That's what I am trying to change :-)

>               and Yesh lahem al mi lismokh. The only problem would be QS,
> and that could depend on how much pizza is consumed.

> Ikh bin nisht a Poseq, I'm just observing what is done L'ma'aseh. AFAIK
> this is the very definition of Minhag, and should not be so readily
> dismissed unless it blatantly violates Halakha. Considering the Taz,
> the Minhag to make Mezonos on pizza is not Negged Halakha, IMHO.

It depends what you mean by halacha. If a person was a talmid of the Taz,
by all means. But since today rov poskim (Or Zarua, Shiltey Giborim,
Gra, Gaon R' Zalman, Chemed Moshe, Derech Chaim, MB) do not pasken like
the Taz, halacha mandates that you not be somech on the Taz. The MB
was a posek acharon and I don't know any significant subsequent posek
which disputes his ruling. Thus, and as I mentioned at the beginning,
I am merely trying to be mifarsem his shita.

Simcha Coffer

On April 9, 2006, Jacob Farkas wrote:
> R' Gershon Dubin wrote:
>> This is not a minhag that has any standing in halacha. It's also simply
>> not true to the extent you imply.

> I'm sorry that I failed to mention that Minhag Ha'Olam is to make
> a Mezonos on "one slice" of pizza. Anything more than one slice is
> potential Qevias Seuda territory, and even if only one slice can be QS,
> this seems not to be the case in practice.

I'm playing devils advocate here, but who says more than one slice is
QS territory? According to the SA, hamotzee is made on PHBK based on a
shiur that "acharim regilim l'kvoa alav" however there is a machlokes
poskim what this shiur is. According to some it is 3-4 beitzim which
seemingly is considerably more than one slice, perhaps two full slices
whereas others, including the Gra, state that the shiur is the standard
for aruchas erev or aruchas boker which is considerably more (apparently
more than 6 beitzim according to the SA haRav). This would seem to include
two slices too. So where do you draw the line? According to the Gra and
many others, you shouldn't be making a haMotzee even on two slices, k'v
on merely a bit more than one. Unless we are talking huge slices which
brings up another sha'ala. What size slices are we talking about? Is
their a specific shiur? Does it matter what the ratio of dough to toppings
there is? Once one relies on the Taz in this area, eating pizza without
making haMotzee on regular bread first is a risky business indeed.

> Why is the opinion of Taz dismissed to the extent that such a Minhag is
> considered not to have any standing in Halakhah?

Because rov acharonim don't pasken like him and therefore, *l'halacha*,
you can't follow his shita. We had a similar discussion regarding
hashkafic issues many times here on Avodah. I mentioned the CS regarding
the shita of Hillel that mashiach is not a man. His shita was rejected
by most amoraim and thus, *l'halacha*, it has no standing.

Simcha Coffer 

[R' Jacob Farkas:]
> Maize (corn) was not included in the original ban, as it is a  new world 
> crop.

Peanuts are also a new world crop, native to South America.  

I don't know why/how they came to be considered kitniyos. Some people
don't eat peanuts on Pesach but do use peanut oil. I don't know what
that cheshbon is either. We don't use peanuts or peanut oil because
there are alternatives, but one year when I could not find cottonseed
oil anywhere we did use peanut oil.

 -Toby  Katz
=============
CKVS

Now that the kitchen is off limits and has been cordoned off (electrified
barbed wire and machine gun emplacements like at the Berlin Wall) and
as a reminder of Yetziyat Mitzraim and Girush Sfarad, I've been evicted
to eat at a restaurant for 2 days :-) I had more time to check mareh
mekomot about corn and kitniyot.

Both the MAHARIL (Hilchot Afiyat haMatzot) and the Leket Yosher (I Orach
Chayim) translate SHIFON (rye) [one of the 5 species] as "korn". By
the way, the Maharil translates "orez" [a.k.a. "rice"] as "hirzen",
with "dochen" [millet] translated as RICE (resh yud yud zayin). So
what we think of rice (Uncle Ben's) may be the wrong item. The gemara
in Pesachim may have been talking about millet!! An expert in German
I consulted couldn't give any explanation for the meaning of "hirzen'
[except for "irzen" = confused].

After almost 58 years, I finally figured out why the American breakfast
cereal from corn is called KIX. The Chatam Sofer III Even HaEzer 52
translates (American) "corn" [tiras] as "kokritz"; the Yeshuot Malko I 17
"kakaritze" (likewise the Aruch haShulchan who uses the term "kikas')
whereas the Chelkat Yaakov (Hea'orot #453) and the Chayim She'al 47
translate (American) corn as 'Turkish wheat' [tirkishen veitz].

The very fact that these poskim thought it looked like wheat (as a
matter of fact, corn growing in the field takeh does look like wheat)
may have brought our American corn into the category of kitniyot.

Last but not least: the language of the Chelkat Yaakov Orach Chayim 195
#1) regarding "tiras" is strange. Lichora, he differentiates between
corn and kitniyot! "rak pat shel tiras u'kitniyot u'k'doma".

CHAG KASHER V'SAMEACH

Josh

From: "D&E-H Bannett" <>
> And while on the subject, the time may have come for another round on
> Avodah of to whom one multi-bows when stepping back at end of shmoneh
> esrei and more important to whom are we whispering when asking to
> answer Amen?

Siddur Otzar Hatefilos, Likutei Maharich, RS Schwab, Boruch She'omar all
say that we are whispering to the Malochim - that accompany a person all
the time. [Maybe 'oseh sholom BIMEROMOV' indicates this?] The earliest
source seems to be Mateh Moshe - which some cite.

The OH also brings a nusach - IIRC - Machzor [or Siddur] Roma - that
indeed does not include the 'Ve'imru Omein' at the end of SE.

SBA

On April 6, 2006, Micha Berger wrote:
>: I've always had a problem with this Gemara. Since avdus is the tachlis
>: of Torah u'Mitzvos (see Chovos haLevavos sha'ar bechina and shaar
>: Avodas Elokim)...

> Is it? The tachlis is subject to the classic "hashkafic fork" described
> by RYGB at <http://www.aishdas.org/rygb/forks.htm>,

RYGB's approach is basically encapsulated in a maamar in Rav Dessler
as he himself notes at the end of his essay but this has nothing to do
with what I am saying. Rav Dessler's distinction between the derachim
of Mussar and Chasidus is the palace. But the palace must be built upon
a foundation. That foundation is avdus. As the Chovos haLevavos notes,
once a person, through bechina, comes to the awareness that Hashem is
infinitely kind and beneficent and that it is impossible to repay Him for
what he is constantly receiving, if he possesses a "proper" personality,
his reaction is that he is entirely machniya himself to Hashem in
avdus. This is actually the mekor of all of our avodas Hashem. The various
derachim which this avdus subsequently manifests itself are merely the
various shades of expressions of this fundamental idea.

>                                                  and discussed
> by myself before I teamed up with RYGB in a vertl that ended up at
> <http://www.aishdas.org/asp/lechLicha2.shtml>.

> Beqitzur: A sar also serves HQBH, but he does so from a position of
> similarity.

I'm not sure what you mean by similarity. "Ma hu aff atah" is the
shoresh of the infrastructure of our Avodas Hashem (see Tomer Devorah)
and applies equally to all people and to all darkey haAvodah.

> The chassid seeks deveiqus, the intimacy of an eved wbeveis
> rabbo. The Litvaq seeks sheleimus, the development of one's tzelem
> E-lokim, and is therefore more like the sar.

Now this sounds interesting. It seems you are equating the terminology
"eved" here with diveikus haleiv and the terminology "sar" with
deveikus haMachshava (although I don't understand you characterizing
deveikus haMachshava as tzelem elokim. Both the emoting quality and the
intellectual quality of the mind are elements of tzelem Elokim). If so,
this would be the first incidence of Chassidus vesus Misnagdus...like
I said, interesting. I'm not sure if this is what you meant, but if so,
I like it :-) Thank you for the pshat.

Simcha Coffer 

Growing up, my family did not have the minhag of laying out [or hiding]
10 pieces of Chometz prior to Bedikas Chometz.

I have done some research here and found that most of Oberlender
background also don't/didn't do so.
[Except in a case where the wife was a 'Fin' [as in 'fin interland'...
an old Ob. joke..]

I spoke last night to the Rosh Kollel of the local Lakewood Kollel -
whose background is WH-Yekke - and they also don't have this minhag.
Which, BTW, the Taz recommends NOT doing it.

Just wondering how it is with our chevra from other kehillos...

 --

And [Note: only for those with a sense of humor] something I heard
last night beshem the late Klausenburger rebbe z'l.

He said that these days with all the additives and chemicals put into
bread, who knows if the 10 pieces of chometz are indeed chometz..?

So he advises, that for this purpose, people use machine-matzos - which
'the zeide the Divrei Chaim zt'l' held was definitely chometz...

SBA

On 4/10/06, T613K@aol.com <T613K@aol.com> wrote:
> but one year when I could not find cottonseed
> oil anywhere we did use peanut oil.

Some of the Israeli mehadrin hashgachos do not allow cottonseed oil,
although the minhag hamakom in America seems to be to allow it.

 - Mike Miller
Ramat Bet Shemesh

Is anyone here following the technique of Cheshbon HaNefesh? How do you
keep records over three day yom tovim?

 -Ken Bloom

On Mon, Apr 10, 2006 at 09:17:34AM -0500, Ken Bloom wrote:
: Is anyone here following the technique of Cheshbon HaNefesh? How do you
: keep records over three day yom tovim?

Take mental inventory before YT, then after the sedarim or Fri night
dinner, or whatever your usual time is. On the 2nd and third nights,
chazer your conclusions from the previous nights.

Then, write down what you can motza'ei Shabbos.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             A cheerful disposition is an inestimable treasure.
micha@aishdas.org        It preserves health, promotes convalescence,
http://www.aishdas.org   and helps us cope with adversity.
Fax: (270) 514-1507         - R' SR Hirsch, "From the Wisdom of Mishlei"

Has anyone seen a discussion on why sippur yetzi'at Mitzrayim is not
included in the Mishna in Peah with those things "she-ein la-hem shiur"?
 Could it be that it is subsumed under Talmud Torah?

    Chag Kasher ve-sameiach
            Aryeh (from home)
 --------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer
Ethel and David Resnick Professor
   of Active Oxygen Chemistry
E-mail: FrimeA@mail.biu.ac.il

Where can I find the parameters of Amira L'Akum on Yom Tov? peferbaly
in the Kitzur or the MB?

It's an issue with our NYC office - and people here (at work) would like
to see it inside.

Thanks
 - Danny

T613K@aol.com wrote:
> [R' Jacob Farkas:}
>> Maize (corn) was not included in the original ban, as it is a new 
>> world crop.

> Peanuts are also a new world crop, native to South America. 

That is the topic of RMF T'Shuva and hence his conclusion that peanuts
should not be considered Qitniyos.

> I don't know why/how they came to be considered kitniyos.

Can it be because it is a legume, and thus assumed to be included in
Issur Qitniyos? If I had to guess, that would be my hypothesis.

> Some people don't eat peanuts on Pesach but do use peanut oil. I don't
> know what that cheshbon is either.

Peanut oil is considered Qitniyos Shenishtanu, and the OU and other 
major Kosher agencies don't consider that to be within the realm of the 
Qitniyos.

Why isn't high fructose corn syrup Qitniyos Shenishtanu [assuming corn 
to be Qitniyos, as it is in practice]? I'm sure there must be a good 
reason...

Jacob Farkas

On April 10, 2006 SBA wrote:
> Growing up, my family did not have the minhag of laying out [or hiding]
> 10 pieces of Chometz prior to Bedikas Chometz.
> I have done some research here and found that most of Oberlender
> background also don't/didn't do so.
...
> Which, BTW, the Taz recommends NOT doing it.

I put out ten pieces. The reason many eschew this custom is because if
one forgot where he put the pieces it could lead to ba'al yiraeh. OTOH,
the reason for the minhag is because if no chometz is found, the bracha
on the bedika could be viewed as a bracha l'vatala (although obviously,
yesh lipakpek bazeh). The eitza to amalgamate both approaches is that
the one (obviously not the bodek) who distributes the pieces should make
a list of the places he/she hid them.

Simcha Coffer

> From: "D&E-H Bannett" <>
>> And while on the subject, the time may have come for another round on
>> Avodah of to whom one multi-bows when stepping back at end of shmoneh
>> esrei and more important to whom are we whispering when asking to
>> answer Amen?

[RSBA:]
> Siddur Otzar Hatefilos, Likutei Maharich, RS Schwab, Boruch She'omar all
> say that we are whispering to the Malochim - that accompany a person all
> the time. [Maybe 'oseh sholom BIMEROMOV' indicates this?] The earliest
> source seems to be Mateh Moshe - which some cite.
> The OH also brings a nusach - IIRC - Machzor [or Siddur] Roma - that
> indeed does not include the 'Ve'imru Omein' at the end of SE.

This is a bedieved explanation (aetiology). It's simply an error: people
automatically went on with "ve'imru omein" after "ouse sholoum". The
same error occurs at the end of benshen, unless somebody is leading it.

A similar phenomenon is probably the cause of saying "Uvsourosoch/-secho
kosuv leimour: shema..." before Yishtabbach, which Baer believes to have
been copied from the Malchiyes on Rosheshone.

ELPhM

> Where does this come from, actually? ...    from a casual glance at
> the Bach on the Tur in 134 it seems that the Mechabber took his very
> strong words ("mitzve to bow") literally from the Ramben who refers to
> Masseches Sofrem. I couldn't find it there, though.

Then there is disused custom for the shatz to raise the Sefer Torah
slightly upon saying "un'romema" of "gadlu lashem iti un'romema sho
yachdov". I have seen this custom mentioned in masseches Sofrim and
cited by the Mogen Avrohom, but not seen it practised.

A kosheren Pesach
Dov Kay

On April 10, 2006 SBA writes:
> Siddur Otzar Hatefilos, Likutei Maharich, RS Schwab, Boruch She'omar all
> say that we are whispering to the Malochim - that accompany a person all
> the time. [Maybe 'oseh sholom BIMEROMOV' indicates this?] The earliest
> source seems to be Mateh Moshe - which some cite.

I haven't been following this thread but if anyone is questioning the
idea of speaking to malachim it's an offena halacha in Hilchos Hanhagas
haAdam baBoker. The custom is, or used to be, to say "hiskabdu michubadim"
to the two malachim that are milaveh a person wherever he goes. Because of
the yeridas haDoros (we're not muchzakin to be such yi're'ey shamaim that
malachim are constantly being milaveh us - MB), the michaber paskens that
the minhag is not to do so (unless a person is an adam gadol I guess...)
When I was a kid, we used to fool around and say hiskabdu alay to anyone
standing near the doorway of a washroom (bathroom for you Americans)
before we went in...

Simcha Coffer

********************


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