Avodah Mailing List

Volume 16 : Number 125

Thursday, February 9 2006

• Re: Enzymes in Honey & Cheese
• cow stomach
• Re: Enzymes in Honey & Cheese
• RE: Kashrus
• Re: Kashrus
• Re: Rape- Sources?
• Re: Claims relativity applied inaccurately
• Re: Wife's kavod for husband
• Eshet Chaver KeChaver
• Types of Rabbinic Halakhah
• Re: Avodah V16 #119
• How Sweet It Is. (Why Is Honey Kosher)?
• The Relationship between Suffering and Sin
• Segulah For Parnassah - Parshas Hamon
• Re: Enzymes in Honey & Cheese
• Re: Enzymes in Honey & Cheese

[Micha:]
> Doesn't your reisha "is never broken down" different than the seifa
> "long sugar molecule is split into the shorter chains of honey"...?
> Are you asserting a shiur to how chemically pronouned the change must be?

> Usually those that assert the "isn't really made by the bee" sevara
> for the kashrus of honey write as though they think the bee is only
> dehydrating the nectar.

> Second, I do not understand the chemistry you're describing. A sugar
> is a ring of carbons, not a chain of variable length. A multiplicity of
> rings in one molecule would be a starch, and wouldn't be sweet. No?

Honey is formed by bees who gather nectar. Nectar has a high
content of sucrose, a disaccharide (composed of sucrose and glucose
monosaccharides). Enzymes in the bee (invertase) break down the sucrose
to its fructose and glucose monosaccharides.

While sucrose is a disaccharide it is still sweet, think table sugar
(pure sucrose).

I am very comfortable with the "honey isn't really made by the bee"
Sevara. Without ignoring the bee's contribution completely, the
determining factor (for this Shittah, when Chemistry was not known) was
most likely the flavor of honey, which is variable based on the flower
from whose nectar the bee gathered.

Milk doesn't 'taste' like 'hay' or 'grass,' although there are surely some
flavor compounds in milk that are formed depending on the animal's feed.

Jacob Farkas

http://tinyurl.com/ch8u4 [Shrunk from a long labrab.blogspot.com
link. -mi] review of the halachic aspects of the stomach surgery issue,
rabbi bleich and rabbi belsky's opinions

On Wed, Feb 08, 2006 at 10:00:28AM -0500, Jacob Farkas wrote:
: I am very comfortable with the "honey isn't really made by the bee"
: Sevara. Without ignoring the bee's contribution completely, the
: determining factor (for this Shittah, when Chemistry was not known) was
: most likely the flavor of honey, which is variable based on the flower
: from whose nectar the bee gathered.

I've tasted clover nectar, and it doesn't taste like honey.

Reading www.chemsoc.org, one learns that honey is made from nectar and
honeydew, nectar that was partially converted by other insects. The
more prominant chemical reaction is the conversion of sucrose in the
nectar to fructose (sugar to fruit-sugar), the "breaking down of longer
chains" already discussed. But also some of the starches are broken
down, as well as some of the peroxide left from those broken starches.
The enzymes and some free amino acids are also left behind by the trip,
and of course, much of the water is removed.

So, I think it's fair to say that the issue is one of "How much chemical
transformation is necessary before one says it's 'made by' the davar
ha'asur?"

My experience lead me to the conclusion that since it doesn't feel the
same, look the same, taste the same or smell the same (sound doesn't seem
relevent), it would be a stretch to argue that the bee's contribution
is ignorable.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org        you don't chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org   You light a candle.
Fax: (270) 514-1507        - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l

 From: "Gershon Seif" on Areivim:
> A relative of mine walked into a bakery. When I asked her if she checked
> the hashgocha,being as that she really doesn't know anything about this
> place, she responded " All the sheitals were on line there!"

 From SBA <sba@sba2.com>
> Yes, a place which has besheitelled ladies lining up to buy, pretty much
> confirms that the place is kosher. Had there been some 'unkosher' worries
> circulating about the owner or his products, they wouldn't be there.

 From Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com> :
> This is far from correct. Assuming Kashrus base on the clothing style
> of the clientle is foolish. There is much ignorance in the world and
> one never knows. Behavior of others doesn't prove anything.

Actually, S.A. YD 119:1 doesn't require a hechsher but does require that
"makirin bo she'hu muchzak b'kashrus." This would seem to be based on
common knowledge of the townsfolk rather than an actual investigation.

A person doesn't have to be too knowledgeable in order to know whether
most of her chevra considers the proprietor to have a chezkas kashrus.

Does anyone have a different interpretation of this se'if in SA?

Kol tuv,
Moshe

Moshe Feldman <moshe.feldman@gmail.com> wrote:
> Actually, S.A. YD 119:1 doesn't require a hechsher but does require
> that "makirin bo she'hu muchzak b'kashrus."  This would seem to be
> based on common knowledge of the townsfolk rather than an actual
> investigation.  Does anyone have a different interpretation of this
> se'if in SA?

I'm not sure that patron clothing styles amount to "makirin bo she'hu
muchzak b'kashrus." Ignorance wears many hats.... and Sheitels.

HM

Toby Katz writes:
> To give a possibly unrelated example, I once read of a teshuva to the
> following shaila from a couple of centuries ago: a very foolish woman
> had a boarder who -- while her husband was away on business -- persuaded
> the woman that he (the tenant) was the father of Moshiach and that G-d
> had told him that she was the mother of Moshiach, and that Moshiach
> would be born from their holy union. She believed him and acquiesced.
> You can imagine the commotion that ensued when the husband got home and
> found out what had happened. The shailah was, could she afterwards
> go back to her husband? The answer was, yes, what had happened to her
> was a form of rape. What should be the penalty for that?...
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The Teshuvah is found in Binyan Tziyyon, no. 154, (Rabbi Jacob Ettlinger
(1798 -1871). He served as rabbi of various communities in Germany,
particularly Altona.)

While the punishment for this miscreant would have been death because
his victim was a married woman. If the victim was single, it would not
have been.

Thanks to the various responses from the group I have come to a better
understanding of the nature of rape. Thank you. Here are some of my
initial thoughts:

1) It may fall into the category of chabalah (see Teshuvot Divrei Yeziv,
Even ha-Ezer no. 77). The payments, in addition to the 50 shekel
fine, for pain, shame, and character degradation (See Ketubot 39a)
sound a lot like the tort payments. In addition, the gemara there
tries to define the pain caused and winds up with "pisuk raglayim"
which speaks tothe violence of the act itself.
2) It may fall into the category of ona'at devarim which prohibits
causing any kind of distress (Kol Ramaz on the mishneh states: ona'ah
refers to stealing forcefully (be-o-nes), whether it is coercion of
thought which is fraud and deceit, whether it is physical coercion
which is theft of property, included is theft of honor and limitation
of another's will.")
3) It may be lack of consent which makes it a forbidden sex act. It is
forbidden for a man to force his wife to have intercourse. (Eiruvin 100b)
Even if she is not forced but is not agreeable, he may not have relations
with her. (Magen Avraham, Orah Hayyim 240, no. 7)

Rambam rules, "He should not coerce her [to have relations] when she
is not desirous. Rather, [they should engage in intercourse only] when
there is mutual desire and pleasure." (Hil. Ishut 15:17) Without her
complete consent, any sexual activity is rape. (Zohar, Bereshit 49b,
148b, Va-yikra 225b) Even ambivalence does not rise to the level
of consent. (Masekhet Kallah Rabbati 1:11; Tur, Orah Hayyim 240 and
Even ha-Ezer 25) Ramban offers his guidance in his Iggeret ha-Kodesh,
shapter 6: When a man has relations [with his wife] he shuld not do so
against her will and he should not rape her; the Divine Presence does
not abide in such unions in as much as his intentions in opposition to
hers, and she does not consent to his desire. He shuld not quarrel with
her or strike her concerning marital relations. Behold, the Sages said
(Pesahim 49b), "Just as a lion tears [his prey] and devours it and has
no shame, so an 'am ha-arez (ignorant boor) strikes and cohabits and has
no shame." Rather, he should entice her with kind and alluring words and
other appropriate and reputable things. He should not have relations with
her while she is sleeping because their intentions are not united and they
are not of the same mind. Rather, he shuld wake her and arouse her with
conversation. The bottom line is this: when you are sexually aroused make
sure that your wife is aroused as well [before you have intercourse]. Of
course, any sexual relationship with a woman other than his wife
is forbidden, but that doesn't differentiate between consensual and
non-consensual or forced and non-forced sex. The gemara says explicitly:
(Ketubot 39b and BK 59a): "One who is forced to intercourse cannot be
compared to one who acts willingly'?" Our understanding of the wrong
and the harm should eflect that. More to come, be"H. Mark Dratch

On Sun, Feb 05, 2006 at 12:57:51PM -0500, Shmuel Weidberg wrote:
: At www.alexandermayer.com is described a claim that when applying
: Einstein's theory of relativity the fact that observers at two clocks
: at some distance from each other in a gravitational field will each
: perceive the other as running more slowly than itself, is forgotten.

Huh? That IS relativity. It would be like making an error when playing
catch to fail to account for the ball.

: The author claims that even though the magnitude of the error is
: relatively very small it is detectable and is the cause of many unresolved
: problems with relativity. For example, it contributes to the inaccuracy
: of GPS and the speed of the Pioneer spacecraft.

That's not a problem with relativity. It's a problem with GPS caused
by relativity. The chip in a GPS reciever compensates for it, but the
first attempts at receivers failed.

That web site is locked, by the way. Judging from the Google cached
version, Dr Mayer was a student at stanford doing research into
dark matter and gravity, and writing a book about the direction of
time. He seems to think that time isn't linear, and is in fact a
multidimensional thing whose linearity and flow are only products of
human perception. Shades of old REED debates...

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
micha@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org         - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507      

On Mon, Feb 06, 2006 at 04:40:02PM -0500, T613K@aol.com wrote:
: Just remembered something else of possible relevance -- Rashi's comment
: (re mitzva of kibud av ve'em) that children usually honor their mother
: more but fear their father more. And for that reason they are told to
: "honor father and mother" (father being mentioned first) but "fear
: mother and father" (mother mentioned first).

I would not define "yir'ah" as fear. More like "awareness of magnitude",
which can underly either fear or awe. If it did mean fear, the chiyuv
"ish es imo ve'aviv tira'u" would be psychologically harmfull -- who
should grow up scared of their parents? I'm working on the subject of
yir'ah for a derashah for this Shabbos. I'm working from Mesilas Yesharim
and RAEK's BeIqvos haYir'ah <http://www.aishdas.org/raek/yirah.pdf>. My
thoughts so far went into <http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2005/05/yirah.shtml>,
written last year.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org        you don't chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org   You light a candle.
Fax: (270) 514-1507        - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l

[Well, it is off-topic for Avodah. It qualifies as "about It", not "It".
That said, it's a project worth helping, so I'll bend the rules. -mi]

I was very disappointed that my post on this topic was not allowed on
Avodah. By sending it to Areivim, none of the people that I needed a
response from -- answered. AFAIK, many rabbis that are on the list do
not bother to read any of Areivim e-mails, they automaticlaly delete them.

I also think that the issue was sufficiently important to warrant a
learned discussion of the issue, and not just "she did XX/no response"
which is what I got from the Chaveirim on Areivim.

Thank you,
Shoshana L. Boublil

Below is the original posting:
As there are many rabbis from around the globe on this list, I was hoping
for some input and advice.

AFAIK, in most countries, there are rabbinical conferences where rabbis
meet for a variety of purposes and reasons. Sometimes, it's for study,
sometimes for community reasons and sometime b/c of Tzorchei HaSha'a.

At any of these conferences, do rabbis' wives participate?

Do they partake in the discussions? Just attend major events? Do not
show up at all?

Is there any place/time where rabbis' wives get together?

Do rabbinical organizations organize conferences, get-togethers, classes,
workshops for rabbis' wives?

At weekend rabbinical conferences/shabbatonim, are there special lectures
for the rabbis' wives?

And lastly, could you please ask your wives what they think of these
questions -- would they be interested in any kind of activity with other
rabbis' wives? Is the age and number of children a part of their response
to this question?

[please also note if your wives would be interested in a closed mailing
list/blog where rabbis' wives could "get together" in cyberspace --
I can be contacted off list with regard to this question.]

Thank you,
Shoshana L. Boublil
Israel

Many moons ago, back when R's Chaim Brown and Chaim Markowitz were vocal
regulars, I reposted here a taxonomy of rabbinic law. I finally got around
to incorporating some of their feedback (based on whether or not I agreed,
naturally) into a new and much larger such list.

See <http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2006/02/types-of-halachic-rulings.shtml>:
> 1.  Minhag....
> 2. Din deRabanan....
> 3. Gezeira deRabanan....
>    According to the Rambam, a gezeira cannot be overturned. However...
>    According to the Tif'eres Yisrael (Ediyos 1), there are actually two
>    sub-categories:...
>        1. Siyag....
>        2. Cheshash.....
>     The Tif'eres Yisrael says that a cheshash can be deemed inapplicable
>     if....
>   4. Asmachta....
>   5. Divrei Qabbalah....
>   6. Pesaq.....
>   7. Derashah.....
>   8. A last category has only two related examples. Torah law mandates a
>      shevus...

> The distinction between the second and third categories is subtle.
...

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org        you don't chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org   You light a candle.
Fax: (270) 514-1507        - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l

On Tue, Feb 07, 2006 at 08:44:54AM +0100, Arie Folger wrote:
: While I cannot answer your question directly (I don' supervise cheese
: productions), I am being told that for most cheeses, 'or haqevah is used,
: which, according to all, needs to come from a kosher animal.

One Tues evening in Moriah, RYBS questioned whether this is really true
for cheaper cheeses, e.g. Kraft. As my father retold it he explicitly
said he was wondering about the metzi'us, not pasqening.

It's not true for "American Cheese", or as the US gov't requires it to
be labeled, "American Processed Cheese Food".

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             It isn't what you have, or who you are, or where
micha@aishdas.org        you are,  or what you are doing,  that makes you
http://www.aishdas.org   happy or unhappy. It's what you think about.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Dale Carnegie

The following question was asked:  
> If an enzyme needs supervision, why is honey kosher?

First, it should be pointed out that Rambam codifies bee-honey as being
Kosher, as does the Shulchan Aruch.

The Gemara (Bechorot, somewhere between 5b and 7b) quotes a Beraita
which says:

    "Why did they say that bee-honey is permitted? Because even though
    they bring it into their bodies, it is not a product of their bodies
    [it is stored there but not produced there]."

All the chachomim of the Mishna agree with this ruling. One of them, Rabbi
Yaakov, however, disagrees with that reasoning. He claims that bee-honey
is Kosher based on his interpretation of Vayikra 11:21. According to him,
the verse prohibits one to eat a flying insect, but not that which is
excreted from it.

In any event, we dip our apple into honey on R"H because if we want a
sweet year, we have to work for it, just like the bee does.

<http://vbm-torah.org/archive/aggada66/14aggada.htm> 

Summary paragraph

Note that we have seen various understandings that break the easy causal
connection between sin and punishment. Yaakov Elman has written a number
of articles showing the many other Talmudic models that also sever this
link. Apparently, we can believe in divine, providential justice and
still understand that the pain of others and even our own difficulties
need not always be traced back to sin. Suffering should make us think
of teshuva, but several models exist to explain why we suffer.

Kt
Joel rich

At 09:37 PM 02/08/2006, [RSBA] wrote:
>>Reb Mendel M'Riminov said that saying Parshas Ha'monn (Shneyim Mikroh
>> V'Echod Targum) on Tuesday Parshas B'Shalach, is a Segulah for Parnasah.

>Some good soul has been advertising this for decades  in Der Yid.
>One of our yungeliet was trying to find a source for this, ie where
>actually does RMM'R say this?

I have a question about this. How does doing this fit with the statement
that our Parnassa is decided on Rosh Hashanah? If what we will get is
already decided, then how can saying this change anything? Or, is it
perhaps a Segulah for next year's Parnassa?

We non-Chassidic types tend to have problems with these sorts of
things. :-)

Yitzchok Levine 

Micha Berger wrote:
>So, I think it's fair to say that the issue is one of "How much chemical
>transformation is necessary before one says it's 'made by' the davar
>ha'asur?"

no.
you are missing the fundamental point.
the bee does not produce the honey. it is not "put together" by the bee 
from raw material.
the bee excretes enzymes that merely breaks down parts of the nectar.
Milk is produced by the cow's gland by taking out of the blood supply 
the needed ingredients and making the milk. honey is "mifkad pakid" - it 
never enters the bee's digestive or circulatory system.

Ari Zivotofsky wrote:
> the bee does not produce the honey. it is not "put together" by the bee
> from raw material.
> the bee excretes enzymes that merely breaks down parts of the nectar.

How is the first line not contradicted by the second?

Or, to put it another way: Why are you assuming that halakhah treats
reductions differently than other chemical reactions? As I wrote, the
impact on the product is just as stark from a sensory point of view. And
isn't that the core of halachic mamashus?

The rishonim who understood the heter as being about the bee not making
the honey really thought that honey was semi-dried nectar, no chemical
reactions at all. Since this biology is wrong, and other rishonim do
provide a 2nd sevarah, I see no reason to propose chiddushim to map
their shitah to the correct biology.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org        you don't chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org   You light a candle.
Fax: (270) 514-1507        - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l

**********************


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