Avodah Mailing List

Volume 16 : Number 093

Thursday, January 19 2006

• Re: Geneivas da'as
• Emunah, Corruption, and the Mabul

Re the discussion about whether it is the intention to deceive that makes
the sin, isn't there some story in the Gemara about a person who saw a
chacham coming towards him and thought the chacham was coming to honor
him but really the chacham was just on that road by chance? And the
chacham said about that man, "He fooled himself, I didn't fool him."
Maybe someone here remembers that case I'm talking about in more detail.

 -Toby Katz
=============

I have been having a running battle on the Mabul on my blog comments. It
is the type of discussion that used to take place on Avodah. I would
very much like to transfer it to Avodah, and continue it here. I will
take it off my blog so there is no duplication. Your call. Here it is:

Sunday, December 25, 2005
Post from my friend Reb Aaron Berger

 From my friend Reb Aaron: You can post responses as comments or email
me for his address.

How does one maintain emuna in spite of all the corruption out there
among frum society and its leaders? (By corruption, I am not referring
to dramatic lack of integrity, as in lying, cheating, znus, etc. I
think this exists, but is the exception. I refer to the absence of
authenticity; i.e. the agenda, the cheshbonos, the apparent lack of
running life decisions through the filter of rotzon hashem, etc.; the
sum of which detract from the emes and shleimus of our religion, and
therefore corrupt it). If you don't agree with my basic premise that
there is such corruption going on, then we can agree to disagree. I do
not care to argue that point. It is more than obvious to me.

When I face up to all this nonsense, at first it makes me wonder about
the integrity of the mesorah handed down to me. Is all the trust that I
had placed in that which was handed down from e.g. the Chazon Ish, the
Chofetz Chaim, etc. misplaced? Is it possible that all these gedolim
were really not that great but their image was bolstered by clever
promoters? These doubts do not usually linger too long. I know enough
products of these gedolim to restore my confidence. So I typically regain
my bearings pretty quickly and my shaila becomes more focused. I wonder
where the real leaders are that hashem must have (I had always thought)
put here for us. My assumption had always been that every dor has its
trusted leaders. If ours does not, how can we push forward our mesorah
to the next generation. Can we exist as a believing nation without a
set of trusted leaders?

My chizuk usually ends up coming from isolated events of integrity and
righteousness which do exist among our rabbonim, great and small. What
gets me, though, is that these are the exception rather than the norm.
If a rav acts like a mentch, it is considered worthy of recording in an
Artscroll biography. (look at some of the nonsense that gets recorded as
acts of tzidkus). Why shouldn't we be able to hold our rabbis to the
same standards of integrity that we hold ourselves?? If our religion
can't foster the basic decency that is a given in other religions, what
is it worth?? And even when there is no outright breach of integrity,
there is almost always an agenda of some sort such as recruiting students,
gathering $, or even influencing people to keep a particular brand of
frumkeit. What happened to actually believing in g-d?? What happened
to making believe we actually believe in g-d, and following through
on all that that implies?? What happened to the simple "kiruv" work
that our grandfathers did by welcoming another yid into their circle,
without any agenda other than brotherhood and humanity??

I tend to think the real answer is that emuna comes from a place very
deep in a person and it does not derive from leaders. It simply cannot
afford to. It comes from our families; from a time before the whole
daas torah rage, from a time when being frum was something deep in your
genetics and did not depend on constant direction from "gedolim". It
derives from the mesorah based on what all 600,000 of our parents saw;
thus its transmission involves the whole klal, not just the leaders.
This very basic, very real, very pious frumkeit (seems ridiculous to
have to put the word pious before frumkeit) is what I observed in, and
received from, my grandparents. They all had deep respect for rabbonim.
But they did not appear to be deriving their whole belief system from
the rabbis in the same obsessive manner that frum jews are doing today.
If a rav did mess up it didn't shake their whole world because they
understood that he failed as a man and that the religion itself is much
greater than any one man. I remember remarking to a chaver in yeshiva
that with all the rabbeim I had, all of whom were "good guys", I never
met anyone as frum as my grandfather. To me he seemed to have the
real stuff. No razzle dazzle, no frumeh cheshbonos, no nonsense. This
emuna that I saw in all my grandparents had been injected very deep
into their psyches by observing their own parents and grandparents,
and was collective in the klal. I need to believe that we, as a dor,
can push through without a reliable system of trusted leaders, based
on the emuna that lives in the klal.

This is not a complete answer; just my theory for a framework of an
answer.

As the very nature of my rant is about cutting the nonsense, I thought
it would be counterproductive to polish up my rhetoric. I welcome all
responses but ask that you keep them real; i.e. not party line verbiage
or how you wished you believed, but stuff that would pass a lie detector
test (unless of course it's funny). And please don't get hung up on my
particular usages versus the spirit of what I am saying.

Gut voch,
Aaron

199 comments
-----------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Bob Miller | Sunday, December 25, 2005 9:59:55 AM

There are times to focus on the "glass half empty" and times to focus on
the "glass half full". Given the pervasive cynicism found today worldwide,
this may be the time to take stock of all our people's assets---even
the assets among our Torah leaders!

My perspective out here may be different, but I see many devoted leaders
at all levels, in person, in books, on the web, and in the news,
who are struggling in various ways to cope with the disintegration of
Jewish society due to war and assimilation. Jews today lack many of
the support systems that existed in the well-established, traditional
Jewish communities of the past, and have the daunting task of filling
in the spiritual gaps artificially.

Of course this increases the burden on our leadership; how could it not?
If the leaders might not always be perfect angels (for sure, we're
not!), they are still worthy of our active support and encouragement.
Our nostalgia and our sitting in judgment of others may not be a
productive use of time.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Anonymous | Sunday, December 25, 2005 12:02:53 PM

Thanks for your sincere reply.

What you are saying would be relevant if the topic at hand were my
judgment of the leaders. I do not care to judge them. It is not my
business, nor am I qualified to do so. (Acually, to defend someone is
just as presumptuous as judging them, if you think about it). For all
I know each has a great terutz for his behaviour. I don't care. I am
talking about the de facto effect on the klal.

What is your thinking that it is not productive to honestly assess
the quality of leadership for what it really is? To me it sounds like
a case of the emporor's new gaartel. How can you fix anything if you
don't recognize the problem? How can you take stock of your alternatives
without understanding the value of each?

To me, it is too easy, somewhat patronizing, and davka not productive
to criticize the criticizer while avoiding the core issues at hand.

Examples of corruption I refer to include:

- Stinkbombs in Ponovezh yeshiva, over who yarshens the rosh yeshivaship
(why are the people in chinuch???)
- Ugly public fighting in satmar and bobov over who yarshens the rebbe
ship (caan the spiritual benefit achieved posssibly outweigh the damage
down?)
- Endoresements and subsequent bannings of the same book (how is anyone
supposed to take this stuff seriously??)
- suspect money practices in an upstate chasidic communitiy, condoned
by leaders, and pardoned away in exchange for political favors
- A Torah lishmah ccommunity in Neew Jersey with an undue emphasis on
gashmius, and a more than healthy tolerance for money shtik (do they
actually believe in this stuff??)
- "respectable" centrist organizational leaders covering up for a sexual
deviant rabbi
- Allegations of serious misbehaviour by all branches of the Israeli
chief raabbinate

I am not saying there aren't terutzim to each of these, maybe all of
these. Thing is, they aren't telling stories like that about you and me
(at least not you).

As I said, if you don't agree with my initial premise, there is nothing
really to discuss. Personally, I need to find another avenue toward emuna.

Love,
Aaron

-----------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Bob Miller | Sunday, December 25, 2005 3:23:14 PM

Dear Aaron,

No real problems, yours or the Klal's, will be solved by a memory dump  of
recent allegations.

Investigate and analyze the situation in private, then present a
workable solution in public. Try leading.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Anonymous | Sunday, December 25, 2005 6:03:42 PM

This is a patronizing response.

Forget my problems. Mah nafshach, if you don't agree with my assessment,
then that should be your point. And if you, that should be your
point. Judging me or telling me what to do is surely not the point.

- Aaron

-----------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Anonymous | Sunday, December 25, 2005 7:31:17 PM

a gut gezukt

-----------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Rabbi Seinfeld <http://www.blogger.com/profile/13897093> |  Sunday,
December 25, 2005 9:49:58 PM

IMHO, a bigger problem than the shortcomings of some who are in leadership
positions is the widespres dearth of kavod among the clal for talmidei
chachamim. This great dearth can be felt in every Jewish conrner,
and can explain, it seems to me, most of our problems from the tiem of
the churban until present. If more of us sought and listened to daas
Torah, that is to say if we truly loved tochacha, Moshiach would have
already come.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Anonymous | Sunday, December 25, 2005 9:58:15 PM

Dear Jerry,

Who loves tochacha??

- Aaron

-----------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Freelance Kiruv Maniac <http://www.blogger.com/profile/10767116> |
Monday, December 26, 2005 6:15:30 PM

My feelings are that in the past, every Jew living in a Jewish community/
shetl/ city had direct personal access to his or her Rav or local
Gadol/Rebbe. There were no propaganda machines like Yated and artscroll
because you saw it first hand. You got to see "the real thing" as you so
eloquently noted in your grandfather. This is an irreplacable experience.
It is definitly one of the myriad side-effects of Chuban Europe that
our communities spread so far and wide that we need to READ about what
greatnes in Torah means- only to mostly see the opposite in real life. The
only cure I know is to mobilize and relentlessly track down that great
Rav and don't quit until you see the consistent greatness for yourself.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Ezzie <http://www.blogger.com/profile/9559099> |
Monday,  December 26, 2005 7:55:08 PM

I find myself wondering the same... comes down to simply worrying about
yourself and ensuring that you are passing down the proper attitudes;
and trying to encourage as many others as possible to do the same.
That's the simplest way I can think of saying it.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Saul Shajnfeld | Monday, December 26, 2005 8:27:56 PM

You mention the integrity of the mesorah. I find that many of our
rabbinic leaders lack the devotion to emes that is essential for us to
view gedolim, rabbanim and talmidei chachamim throughout the ages as
reliable bearers of our unbroken "chain of tradition."

One personal example is the unwillingness of rabbanim to openly confront
challenges to our tradition. I have studied ancient Egyptian and Assyrian
history and found an unbroken chain of monarchies and civilizations
from 3000 BCE to the present, with no room for a flood that supposedly
destroyed all life in the Near East (or, at a minimum, in Mesopotamia)
c. 2105 BCE, the date derived from the Torah chronology. The physical
evidence (e.g., inscriptions, among many other items) is staggering.
There is no longer any room for doubt by any serious scholar. Even
Orthodox Jewish scholars agree. The geological evidence is in agreement:
many individual local floods, but no major flood during the time in
question.

Yet I have approached rabbanim about this and find them too scared out
of their wits to face reality. This is not to mention gedolim who seem
to know only how to ban books, say "teiku" and terrorize others into
remaining silent about real problems. It seems we lack leaders who can
face emes and deal with it. To me, this is a form of corruption. And this
is my personal source of despair about the integrity of the mesorah. If
our past leaders were of the same mind--which may well have been the
case--I could hardly trust them to pass on only emes from generation
to generation.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Posted by YM <http://www.blogger.com/profile/11640520> |
Monday, December 26, 2005 8:43:20 PM

This comment that there is a 3000 year unbroken tradition of Egyptian
and Assyrian history is impossible. Neither civiliation exists and it
just proves how much b***s*** is on the net.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Anonymous | Monday, December 26, 2005 8:56:00 PM

>This comment that there is a 3000 year unbroken tradition of Egyptian
>and Assyrian history is impossible. Neither civiliation exists ...

Or perhaps you need a little work on your reading comprehension. The use
of the word "chain" may have invoked standard Jewish masoretic imagery,
but what "an unbroken chain of monarchies and civilizations from 3000
BCE to the present" means is that the entire period is accounted for in
history for that part of the world.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Saul Shajnfeld | Monday, December 26, 2005 9:27:17 PM

YM:

I would respectfully suggest that you reread my post carefully and then
go to a good university library and check the treatises and journal
articles on Egyptology, Assyriology and archaeology. You might also
correspond with leading Egyptologists, as I have. It is amazing how much
ignorance there is on the web.

I would add that I corresponded with one frum Assyriologist on this
topic. He admitted that the Torah's account--notwithstanding further
discoveries--may never be reconcilable with the archaeological and
historical record.

Anonymous:

The entire period is accounted for in tremendous detail, supported
by over one million artifacts. I don't think we need to quibble about
the use of the word "chain." The evidence for continuous, large-scale
civilization in Mesopotamia and Egypt is "harder" evidence than our
chain of tradition.

I would recommend that both of you ... do some serious study. At most you
may find a period of 100 or 200 years where we don't know the names of
the particular kings, but no gap in the continuity of cultures. There
is no way that the descendents of Noach could have repopulated Egypt
200 years after a universally-fatal flood and restarted the culture,
language, writing system, religion, etc. The very idea is absurd.

I should add that after studying this matter and addressing very pointed
questions to world-renowned experts, I also consulted a number of frum
scholars. Not a single one questioned my data or told me my conclusions
were wrong. One did say that this is a topic he discusses with his wife
at night but would not publish on. Another, who admitted the problem,
refused to continue the e-mail correspondence for fear that he would be
"outed."

So much for emes.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Posted by AL | Monday, December 26, 2005 10:05:53 PM

Saul,

Have you the read the posts of "Godol Hador (GH)?" He brings up many of
the same points.

But don't get too disheartened. There is still room to interpret the
flood as a story seen from the viewpoint of Noach alone - meaning that
the flood may have been local, but to Noach, it destroyed his entire
physical world - the world that he was personally aware of.

Sure, there may be other problems with the history line lining up with our
(limited) historical data, but in any case it is best to not worry about
detailed historical accuracy (or moshol issues), and to concentrate on
what the story is trying to teach.

There appear to be several areas of the torah that (according to some
opinions at least) are not intended to be taken 100% literally. And
there is no way that such an old story could be completely proven or
disproven from the historical/scientific evidence available to us today.

The pure literalists are not going away anytime soon. Nothing you say
will convince them. Since there is no clear resolution to the problem
(we can't go back in time to prove history), it's kind of hopeless
to spend too much time dwelling on the issue of historical accuracy.
(Unless you are a kiruv worker, of course).

On the emes issue, I agree with you. But it is human nature for one
to avoid confrontations that try to force a radical change in one's
world view. Especially when the world view is based on tradition and
belief, and not on scientific evidence.

As a "believer" myself, I don't enjoy science-belief confrontations,
but I am very aware of them, and try to admit or consider what the
truth appears to be, based on the strength of the available evidence.
Sometimes it's acceptable to say that 2 ideas can't be reconciled at
this time based on current Torah/mesora/scientific knowledge.

Despite my attachment for seeking the truth, I don't think there is
anything that will make me give up my fundamental belief in the mesora.
I will just store both ideas, leaving it for further investigation at
some later time.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Posted by YGB <http://www.blogger.com/profile/7592239> |
Monday, December 26, 2005 10:23:09 PM

I do not believe I am "afraid." But I am strident. If the Torah says it
happened, it happened. Period. V'im reik hu, me'chem hu reik.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Posted by YGB <http://www.blogger.com/profile/7592239> |
Monday, December 26, 2005 10:35:12 PM

 From my friend Reb Aaron:

*Hi
Here is something to think about: To feel the urgent responsibility to
reconcile all contradictions between truths taught by the torah (e.g. the
world's age) and scientific facts, is to say that absent our terutz we
are in trouble. To me this is an arrogant approach; as it assumes that
we can know all the answers and that our answers are the key to it
all. I would rather take what I think is a frumer approach and apply
the adage "you don't die from a kasha". Fact is, you need to come on
to this approach as there is plenty of stuff in the gemara that doesn't
square away with science that we all accept. If your belief in torah
is strong enough you can live with the contradiction.
Good night -
Aaron*

-----------------------------------------------------------
Posted by YGB <http://www.blogger.com/profile/7592239> |
Monday, December 26, 2005 10:42:17 PM

http://www.interhack.net/projects/library/antiquities-jews/b1c3.html

Antiquities of the Jews by Flavius Josephus

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Book I, Chapter 3
Concerning The Flood; And After What Manner Noah Was Saved In An Ark,  With
His Kindred, And Afterwards Dwelt In The Plain Of Shinar
... [Much deleted. See the URL. -mi]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Matt Curtin
Last modified: Fri Apr 17 11:41:27 EDT 1998

-----------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Saul Shajnfeld | Monday, December 26, 2005 11:46:38 PM

>YGB said...
http://www.interhack.net/projects/library/antiquities-jews/b1c3.html
Antiquities of the Jews by Flavius Josephus<

YGB:

With all due respect, I'm not sure I see any point to your post.
Obviously Josephus knew the Torah. The flood story, containing many
similar details, was part of the literature of the ancient Near East.
The Epic of Atrahasis, and later the Epic of Gilgamesh, include it.
According to these epics, the flood took place during the time of
Gilgamesh, who lived c. 2600 BCE (vs. the Torah's "date" of c. 2105
BCE). The ancient Mesopotamian legends had the first 10 doros living
lives that lasted thousands of years each. None of this changes the
fact that it is impossible anymore to argue reasonably that there was
a massive flood when the Torah says there was. Even Josephus seems to
say that you can believe in the chronology or not.

The story of the mabul is very ancient, and may have a basis in some
real flood of SOME dimension. It is impossible, however, to argue that
any truly massive flood occurred when the Torah says it did.

I would suggest you instead read what modern historians--who have the
benefit of the massive discoveries since Josephus--have to say on this
matter. It is convincing.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Saul Shajnfeld | Tuesday, December 27, 2005 12:18:56 AM 

Al:

I appreciate your thoughts on this, but I have a different viewpoint.

> Have you the read the posts of "Godol Hador (GH)?" He brings up many
> of the same points

I have. My research began over five years ago. GH, importantly, is
spreading what all scholars in this area know. My problem is with
those who wish to remain ignorant, and specifically with rabbanim,
who are supposed to have some fondness for emes, though it is hard to
tell nowadays.

> There is still room to interpret the flood as a story seen from the
> viewpoint of Noach alone

Not according to the literal words of the Torah.

> in any case it is best to not worry about detailed historical accuracy
> (or moshol issues), and to concentrate on what the story is trying to
> teach.

I am worried that our religious leaders have no regard for emes. If
they were honest, they would say that it now appears that the flood is
a moshol. Or, at a minimum, that perhaps it is a moshol. As it seems
that the Torah's account, read literally, is incorrect (at the least,
as to chronology, and probably much more so), continuing to insist on a
literal reading amounts to a distortion of the true meaning of the Torah.

> Sometimes it's acceptable to say that 2 ideas can't be reconciled at
> this time based on current Torah/mesora/scientific knowledge...Despite
> my attachment for seeking the truth, I don't think there is anything
> that will make me give up my fundamental belief in the mesora. I will
> just store both ideas, leaving it for further investigation at some
> later time.

The point is that that time has come. If you ask many rabbanim just how
much evidence they would require in order to convince them, they would
say that no amount of evidence would ever convince them. I simply do
not trust people of this mind-set---people who are willing to sacrifice
emes for the sake of emunah---to pass on a tradition accurately. The
weak link in the "unbroken chain" of our mesorah is people who are more
concerned with the preservation of emunah than with the correctness of
the mesorah. They are the cause of my despair. They would readily pass
on things they had good reason to doubt. In my view, this undermines
the entire mesorah.

-----------------------------------------------------------

 From my friend Reb Aaron:

Hi
> Here is something to think about: To feel the urgent responsibility to
> reconcile all contradictions between truths taught by the torah (e.g.
> the world's age) and scientific facts, is to say that absent our terutz
> we are in trouble. To me this is an arrogant approach; as it assumes
> that we can know all the answers and that our answers are the key to it
> all. I would rather take what I think is a frumer approach and apply
> the adage "you don't die from a kasha".

Some kashas you do die from. In the Gemara, when the view of a particular
Amora has been refuted, does the Gemara say he's correct anyway, as
"you don't die from a kasha"? I don't think so. Following this approach,
one can continue to cling forever to all manner of nonsense.

Is it "frumer" to continue believing in a discredited interpretation of
Torah? I hope not.

>If your belief in torah is strong enough you can live with the
>contradiction.

Personally, I hold demonstrable emes to be more important than an
erroneous tradition. Torah is supposed to be truth. It cannot be
interpreted in a manner that is demonstrably false. Otherwise it will,
chas v'sholom, become an object of derision. There is room in Yahadus
for reinterpreting the Torah when facts require it. This time has come
with respect to the flood. You really should study the literature.

*********************


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