Avodah Mailing List

Volume 16 : Number 082

Thursday, January 5 2006

• Re: Fwd: Re: your mail
• Come Join us for Melaveh Malkah this Week
• Gemara vs. evolution
• Re: Gemara vs. evolution
• Re: Shouldnt the night of the week for leil tevila be random?
• vest kavua nowadays
• female kashrus supervisors - female judges
• Echod bepeh ve'echod beleiv
• Re: Echod bepeh ve'echod beleiv
• Re: Echod bepeh ve'echod beleiv
• Re: female kashrus supervisors - female judges
• Re: Three steps forward
• Re: Female Kashrus Supervisors
• schar mitzvah bhai almah
• Re: Three steps forward
• Re: Abortion Due to Mental Anguish
• Hakol Tolui Bemazel...
• Re: Xmax and Assimilation

>I was politely asked by the Gabai to remove my hat and
>cover my head with the tallis. I naturally complied. However,
>this seems to me to be a chassidic custom. Can anyone
>confirm this with sources?

It's the Chaim Berlin minhag as well.

Gil Student,          Yashar Books

Disappointed you won't be in Flatbush for our Shabbaton this weekend
(parashas Vayigash, Jan 6th-7th)?

If you're in the greater New York area, you can still join us for the
Melavah Malkah!

			   8pm this Motza'ei Shabbos
			at the Yavneh Minyan of Flatbush

		   Simple Emunah and Philosophical Knowledge
			       a panel discussion

Speakers:
R' Prof. Shalom Carmy - professor of bible and Jewish thought, Yeshiva
                        University (and, of course, Avodah lurker)
Rabbi Moshe Sokol - Rav, Yavneh Minyan of Flatbush; Dean, Lander College
Rabbi Yisrael Hirsch - Rav, Shaarei Shalom; founder, Shalom Mediation
                       Center

The discussion will be moderated by our Rabbi Gil Student, billed as
founder of Yashar Books, but also one of AishDas's founding members.
(I finally was able to re-draft him for moderation, if only for an
evening! <g>)

And of course it will be fun to meet some of the people behind the
posts.

Price: $18

Kindly email RJJB <jjbaker@panix.com> and myself if you are interested.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             "The most prevalent illness of our generation is
micha@aishdas.org        excessive anxiety....  Emunah decreases anxiety:
http://www.aishdas.org   'The Almighty is my source of salvation;  I will
Fax: (270) 514-1507      trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya

The gemara in Shabbos daf ayin ches amud beis: (It's a paraphrase with
Rashi included and some details and questions skipped)

Rabbi Zeira found Rav Yehuda in a good mood and asked him a number of
questions: Why does a camel have a small tail? Because it eats thorns and
they would get tangled in the thorns. Why does an ox have a long tail?
Because it lives in the swamp and has to swat flies. Why does a kamtza
(grasshopper or ant) have soft horns (antennae)? Because if they were
hard they would break off when they banged into wood.

You see from here that animals were created with certain features for
their benefit. According to evolution you would have to say that the
animals adapted to their surroundings, but according to the Gemara,
the surroundings were predetermined and the animals were created to make
their stay in those surroundings more comfortable and safe.

You see the same thing with the famous story of Hillel who was asked why
people from different places have different features such as a round head
and flat feet. I brought down the gemara in Shabbos because I learnt it
today with my chavrusa.

Kol Tuv,
Shmuel

On Tue, Jan 03, 2006 at 08:17:09PM -0500, R Shmuel Weidberg wrote:
: You see from here that animals were created with certain features for
: their benefit. According to evolution you would have to say that the
: animals adapted to their surroundings, but according to the Gemara,
: the surroundings were predetermined and the animals were created to make
: their stay in those surroundings more comfortable and safe.

If you believe both: Hashem made such the animals adapt to make their
stay in those surroundings more comfortable and safe.

Aside from one being in dry language and the other speaking of Hashem's
Rachmanus on His creatures, I fail to see the difference you are making.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             With the "Echad" of the Shema, the Jew crowns
micha@aishdas.org        G-d as King of the entire cosmos and all four
http://www.aishdas.org   corners of the world, but sometimes he forgets
Fax: (270) 514-1507      to include himself.     - Rav Yisrael Salanter

R' Moshe Feldman wrote:
> My point is that women in Amoraic times had exact Vestot Kevuot.
> So some of them must have had 28 day cycles (as the average menstrual
> cycle today lasts 28 days--see http://www.coolnurse.com/menstrual.htm;
> I don't know whether this was true in ancient times).

It seems that the average menstrual cycle actually is/was 30 days -
onah beinonis (see YD 189:1).

Interesting to note, as it seems from the Rambam (quoted in BY YD 183),
the average menstrual cycle in the times of the Talmud was a perfect 7+11
(7 niddah days in which the period was to be expected and considered
"normal", 11 zivah days in which if the woman was to see blood, it would
be attributed to an illness). Rashi however, disagrees with the Rambam.

Returning to the original query, shouldn't the night of the week for
leil tevila be random, I may have missed something, I just don't get
the question. Who says throughout the years it isn't, did anyone keep
track to prove otherwise?

I can get my telephone bill any day of the week, does it mean that over
a period of years, from a statistical perspective, will the day I receive
my phone bill be randomly distributed across Monday, Tuesday, etc? Similar
question, if I flip a coin 10 times, will I get 5 heads and five tails?


Kol Tuv,
 - Avigdor Feldstein

R'n Boublil wrote [on Areivim]:
> From my personal experience as a Kallah guide and rabbi's wife, most
> women DO have a Vesset Kavu'a, only many times, it's not a simple Vesset
> HaYamim, rather there are many complex options.

 From what I heard from several Rabanim and madrichim, mostly at shiurim in
Hilchos Niddah and some of whom I've spoken to personally, a steady veset
kavua is virtually unheard of nowadays. Perhaps there is a geographical
difference.What's possible, is that a women might have a veset kavua
set once, be it a veset pashut or murkav, which in that case she'd be
required to keep note for the rest of her life, to make sure it never
recurs even once.

Looking in sifrei shu"t, one gets the notion that veset kavua was the
norm until recently, as recent as the prewar years. I have heard various
explanations behind the phenomena that vesets kavua aren't prevalent
nowadays.

One theory I heard of is that electricity is the culprit. Considering
that there is some correspondence between outside conditions and the
onset of the menestrual cycle, as demonstrated by the veset hachodesh
that is influenced by the moon.

In the days of old, day was day, and when the sun went down, those who
could afford candles stayed up a little longer, but sooner or later the
day came to a close, v'haya lonu halayla mishmar v'hayom melacha (Nechemia
4:16). Therefore the body sensed when it was day and when it was night,
va'yehi erev va'yhi boker yom echad... Nowadays with electricity, most
hours of the day are spent indoors with artificial lighting, and layla
kayom ya'ir with the same artificial lighting, the body sort of lost
sense of it's biological calendar.

I'm curious if this theory has any medical validity to it. Any doctors
on board?

Kol Tuv,
 - Avigdor Feldstein

Mike Wiesenberg (in areivim) just quoted Rav Frand on a tape, that the
reluctance to appoint women as kashrus supervisors is related to not
giving women leadership roles.

For your reference needs, I just came across a great list of sources on
the topic of appointing women as judges. The Sefer Hachinuch Mitzvah 77,
in a long tangent, asks how was Devorah able to be a judge. He has 2
answers one of which says she wasn't a judge. The other answer offers a
unique piece of lomdus -if I understood it correctly, she was the other
judges proxy.

If you look at all the references there (newer Minchas Chinuch- towards
the end of the first volume) you'll see that it's actually a big machlokes
in the Rishonim and the question itself is asked in the Gemara. Ayain
shom v'timtzeh nachas.

RSBA used the phrase 'echod bepeh and echod belev' on Areivim, and RJR
asked there "Source of phrase?"

Now that he asked, I'm wondering too. Does it date back to Chazal?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             "The most prevalent illness of our generation is
micha@aishdas.org        excessive anxiety....  Emunah decreases anxiety:
http://www.aishdas.org   'The Almighty is my source of salvation;  I will
Fax: (270) 514-1507      trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya

[I bedavka asked for a Chazal. I recall seeing the expression in the
Ramban, Rabbeinu Yonah, and other rishonim. -mi]

Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
> RSBA used the phrase 'echod bepeh and echod belev' on Areivim, and RJR
> asked there "Source of phrase?"
> Now that he asked, I'm wondering too. Does it date back to Chazal?

Shoen fargesen Rashi from two weeks ago? Velo yachlu dabero
leshalom-mitoch genusam lamadnu shevacham shelo dibru achas bepeh
ve'achas belev.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

Micha Berger wrote:
>RSBA used the phrase 'echod bepeh and echod belev' on Areivim, and RJR
>asked there "Source of phrase?"
>Now that he asked, I'm wondering too. Does it date back to Chazal?

Pesachim 113b There are three that G-d hates

Bava Metzia 49a

It is also found in a number of medrashim

Gershon Seif wrote:
>Mike Wiesenberg (in areivim) just quoted Rav Frand on a tape, that the
>reluctance to appoint women as kashrus supervisors is related to not
>giving women leadership roles.

See Igros Moshe YD II 44 & 45

Regarding leadership and being a judge  see YD II 45, YD IV 26

Daniel Eidensohn

[RMPT's son-in-law and R' Yitzzchak Blau's father, R' Yosef Blau, also
peruses Avodah sometimes. -mi]

The 10th yahrzeit of HaRav MPTeitz z'l' (father of y'lch't' REMT) having
just passed, this essay on s'michas "g'ulah" li"t'filah" by a grandson came
to my mailbox in a timely fashion.  Enjoy.

<http://vbm-torah.org/archive/aggada66/09aggada.htm>

 -----

IIRC, someone recently noted, agav urcha, that in KAJ only the Rav
(and a talmid muvhaq) could wear the talis over the head. Maybe so,
but in my recollection neither Rav YBreuer z'l' nor RSSchwab z'l' (and
certainly not their respective m'shorasim shey'l'y't'a', Avram Gutmann
and Benny Ettlinger) wore the talis in that manner. At the time of first
enwrapping, each was not wearing his hat but rather a yarmulke (of the
size and shape associated nowadays with Bucharians and of black color),
and each redonned the hat after a sufficient timespan of enwrapment.
Other members of the tzibbur did likewise.

 -----

Shabbas Shalom and all the best from
 --Michael Poppers via RIM pager

[Micha:]
> I am just wondering: Would someone who holds they can't use mashgichos
> ever eat at a friend's house? Does he presume that there's a yotzei
> venichnas in their kitchen?

> In practice, everyone relies on female mashgichos.

Technically you're right - if the sole job of the women mashgicha is to
supervise and make sure that the correct ingredients and utensils are
used. It's is a b'feirusher Tosfos that ma'asim b'chol yom that women
are trusted that a piece of meat was properly slaughtered, "treibered"
and koshered.

But if the female is the one that makes the kashrus decisions, then it
depends if a women may pasken shailos issur v'heter. See Sharei Teshuva
in Hilchos Pesach OC 461:17 in the first parentheses, where he quotes
an interesting discussion which is of relevance to our issue.

OTOH there may be some legitimacy to the argument that [some?] women
shouldn't be a mashgicha, for a more practical reason. A kahrus supervisor
sometimes has to be able to withstand intense pressure to overlook and
close an eye in case of some serious mishap. It sometimes takes an immense
emotional strength to withstand this pressure. IMHO (even if won't sound
to PC), in this area a man would most probably do a better mashgiach.

I find it difficult to understand why a behind the scene position like
a kashrus supervisor in a kitchen, be considered a "srara". Srara over
whom, the Filipino cook? or the Cuban dish washer?

Therefore in all honesty, in a small ehrliche establishment where an
abovementioned situation isn't likely to arise, if the job involves
making sure that only the proper ingredients and utensils are used, and
any shailo that may come up she consults with her Rabbinical Coordinator,
and there aren't any tznius problem involved, what problem can there be
in hiring female mashgichos?

Kol Tuv,
 - Avigdor Feldstein

"Rich, Joel" <> wrote:
> For those who believe that schar mitzvah bhai almah leka

What do you mean by 'for those who believe"?

SBA

RMP wrote:
> IIRC, someone recently noted, agav urcha, that in KAJ only the Rav
> (and a talmid muvhaq) could wear the talis over the head. Maybe so,
> but in my recollection neither Rav YBreuer z'l' nor RSSchwab z'l' (and
> certainly not their respective m'shorasim shey'l'y't'a', Avram Gutmann
> and Benny Ettlinger) wore the talis in that manner. At the time of first
> enwrapping, each was not wearing his hat but rather a yarmulke (of the
> size and shape associated nowadays with Bucharians and of black color),
> and each redonned the hat after a sufficient timespan of enwrapment.
> Other members of the tzibbur did likewise.

I just received from a friend the following:

"At KAJ today, the prerogative of `atifo be-talleis belongs basically
to the Raf and the dayyonim, though a few upstarts (NOT ME) do it with
impunity."

Lipman Phillip Minden

[RD Josh Backon:]
> The YAAVETZ (I:43) permits in the case where a mamzer would be born.
> In the case of rape, it is permissible (if done within 72 hours) to abort
> the fetus. (see also the Mishpetei Uzziel [III Choshen Mishpat, #47]).

Abortion done "within 72 hours" -- presumably that means within 72
hours of having relations -- at that point it is not an abortion, but
"morning-after" birth control. No one knows she is pregnant in the
first 72 hours!

If he is trying to say it should be done within 72 hours of finding out
you're pregnant -- well, that would be a strange ruling.

 -Toby Katz

We are holidaying in Sydney right now where I often davven in the
[former ?, don't ask] main Chabad Shul (when I usually bump into Areiv
Rael Levinson - no, he's not a Chabadnik - at least as far as I can
judge... not that there is anything wrong with Chabadniks of course,
some of my best friends are etc etc etc]

Anyway, to make a short story long, in that shul I found an old coverless
sefer which turned out to be Shu't 'Zvi Tiferes' by Rav Zvi Hersh Shapiro
zt'l, the baal Darkei Teshva [father of the Minchas Elozor zt'l] -
the 2nd [actually 3rd] in that dynasty to occupy the Munkatch rabbonus.

Which brings me to the subject line. The Darkei Teshuva is a sefer
universally known by all and used by Rabbonim and poskim - in fact almost
anyone learning YD seriously. But it seems that relatively few TCs have
even heard of the Zvi Tiferes.

It was published by the mechaber in 5672 - nearly a hundred years ago.

The foreword [entitled Rishumei Devorim] of about 20 big tightly packed
pages includes [from what I have had time to peruse] some beautiful
divrei agada - which is worthwhile checking out on its own. [I actually
photo copied it - as I doubt too many have the sefer in Melb].

A couple of interesting teshuvos I noticed:

About the rights of a kehilla to make takonos [he calls it kilkul -
not tikkun] that that tzibbur may not raise their voices during pesukei
dezimra and birchas Krias Shma. You can guess his psak...

If a mechalel Shabos can be part of a minyan. [In fact he is quite meikel
legabe other aveiros etc, bring rayos for it(see Pri Megadim OC 55 AA
7)]. But for chilul Shabbos bifresiyeh there is no leniency at all as
dinoy keAkum lechol dovor. Surprisingly he brings as a source the MB
(55:46), which would have been only had been recently published. I doubt
that his son the ME ever quotes the MB in his seforim...]

SBA

In message , S & R Coffer <rivkyc@sympatico.ca> writes
>But I didn't mean that. On the contrary, I meant that roite bendalach
>are possibly a lav whereas gift-giving surely wouldn't be considered
>a lav. The reason I think this is true is because darkei emoree,
>a lav that incorporates several different types of activity, also
>encompasses the issur against superstition which is the problem with
>roite bendalach. Giving gifts on Chanukah has nothing to do with that. If
>anything it might go into lo seilchu b'chukas hagoy but I don't think
>it even goes into that because the goyim are merely giving gifts because
>'tis the season to be jolly'. It is an expression of camaraderie which is
>found equally in all classes of mankind.

I am not sure you are right.

Certainly at least some Xtians link the gift giving with the gifts of
the 3 Kings (- how's your Xtian theology? they apparently who followed
the star to Bethlehem and gave gifts ). The day of the arrival of the
3 kings is, according to my Catholic au-pair, a big deal in Austria
(I think it might coincide with 12th day of Xmas - it is Jan 6 this
year apparently - which also might explain "on the first day of Xmas,
my true love gave to me ..."). She is completely amazed that the English
schools are all back at school already after Xmas (except the Catholic
schools, which she and my cleaning lady, who is Polish Catholic, agreed
was because they needed to wait for what my Catholic au-air translated as
"King's day"). We looked up what the diary said the day was called, and
it claimed Jan 6 was "Epiphany", which was not a name my au-pair knew,
and sounds to me like something else. Certainly none of the Spanish
lawyers (on both the bank and borrower side) that I have been dealing
with over the last few weeks are around, as this is apparently the big
holiday week in Spain, and my au-pair and my cleaning lady thought it
might also be linked, Spain being a Catholic country and all that.

So it might well be that while the Protestant countries, of which the
USA is one, just link the gift giving to the general season to be jolly,
it may have much older and more closely theologically linked origins.

Regards
Chana

(Who indulged in loads of gift giving this Chanuka, because my younger
son was born on 7th day Chanuka, so on top of everything else we had his
third birthday to think about - I think though that the co-incidence of
this birthday is likely to keep down the gift giving to other children.
My older one wouldn't understand a present from not receiving one,
so gift giving to him is irrelevant, and if we have others, I wonder
if it will seem a bit rough, for that one to get birthday presents on
their birthday and Chanuka presents on Eli's birthday, whereas Eli will
then not really have a special time especially for him. Of course,
there are arguably issues about birthdays as well, although the Ben
Ish Chai was big on them).

-- 
Chana Luntz

*********************


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