Avodah Mailing List

Volume 13 : Number 025

Thursday, May 20 2004

• pikuach nefesh & shabbat
• Re: coincidence according to the Maharal
• Avodah Zara Wigs
• Re: Indian hair, Sheitels and AZ
• Hindu hair
• Indian hair, Sheitels and AZ
• Re: upsheren / upsherin - to do or not to do?
• Re: Endangering one's life to recover body parts
• Re: About the water controversy
• RE: pikuach nefesh & shabbat
• Kal v'homer
• Indian hair, Sheitels and AZ
• Indian hair
• RE: Indian hair, Sheitels and AZ
• Re: Indian hair, Sheitels and AZ
• Re: Kal v'homer
• coincidence
• Lechovod Shevuos - Yetziv Pisgom
• Re: coincidence
• Re: coincidence
• Re: Indian hair, Sheitels and AZ
• Re: Kal Vachomer
• Re: coincidence
• Re: mevatlin issur le'chatchila
• charity to chilonim
• The Shelah's 'parent's prayer'
• Re: charity to chilonim
• Re: coincidence

In a recent shiur a rav discussed some halachot of pikuach nefesh and
shabbat. In particular there are differences between Mechaber and Ramah
(sefardim and Ashkenazim) whether a shinui is preferred.

The rav took it for granted that the sefard/ashkenaz refers to the
doctor/helper and not to the patient. However, several of us were not
convinced.

Anyone know how to do with an issue that involves both doctor and patient
where one is ashkenaz and the other is edot mizrach?

Eli Turkel,  turkel@post.tau.ac.il on 5/17/2004
Department of Mathematics, Tel Aviv University

Micha Berger wrote:
>Just pointing out that HP and sechar va'onesh in this world are different
>questions; HP is broader.

Do you have sources that the Maharal and the Rishonim differentiate
between these concepts?

Daniel Eidensohn

Assuming that these wigs are avodah zara, and are assur b'hanaah,
would it be mutar to donate them to cancer patients (non jewish)?
(making sure not to take any tax benefits from them)

would seem to be better spent than burning them. Does it make a difference
that they are tikrovet AZ as opposed to actual AZ.

thanks,
shaya

Rav Moshe Feinstein wrote a letter permitting sheitel with indian hair.
My sources think it was published. Does anyone have a copy or have more
information about it?

Daniel Eidensohn

"Pilgrims come for fleeting glimpses of the fascinating life-size idol of
Balaji, after inching in long queues for hours and days. Many undertake
the pilgrimage asking for favors to mark various transitions in life or
simply to offer their hair, tiny silver or gold bits or images of the
deity. The shrine is an integral part of life and culture especially
in the three southern Indian states of Andhra Pradesh, Tamil Nadu and
Karnataka."

But even if we determine that female hair is offered to a god-- how
does that hair get into my wife's wig?-- Are we going to assur Indian
silver and gold kiddush cups because silver and gold are offered to gods
by pilgrims??

Zvi Basser

R' Daniel Eidensohn wrote:
"Rav Moshe Feinstein wrote a letter permitting sheitel with indian hair.
My sources think it was published. Does anyone have a copy or have more
information about it?"

I do not know about a letter, but I heard from a talmid chacham whom I
know well that R' Moshe told two persons, R' Tuvia Bluth and R' Shmuel
Fuerst [sp?], that there was no problem with the Indian hair. However,
he did not give them any reason.

Henoch Moshe Levin

Phyllostac@aol.com wrote:
> A very significant consideration is also the question if there is a
> problem of 'chukos hagoyim' with the custom. While we don't generally
> see it now (in western countries at least), the fact is that in certain
> eastern cultures (e.g. arab and hindu / Indian) a great deal was/is
> made of a son's first haircut and it was accompanied by a significant
> celebration....

This is actually VERY related to the issues of sheitlach.

Hindus celebrate a child's first haircut in a ceremony called Mundan. Here's
one description:
> This is a ceremony in which a male child gets his first haircut done. It
> usually takes place when he is three, five or seven years of age. It is
> customary to conduct this ceremony at the shrine of the family God or
> in the temple of Lord Shiva. Clipped hair are placed along with some
> cow dung, milk and two coins wrapped in a piece of cloth and later on
> offered at the temple or the shrine of Kulja (family god/goddess) or
> a holy river. The ceremony is performed to receive blessings for the
> child. The cutting ceremony is first of all started by the maternal
> uncle of the child and is carried on by a barber. The maternal uncle
> bears all the expenses of the ceremony.

-mi

> the hebrew-enabled among us can find some more at
> http://www.yeshiva.org.il/Shiurim/klali/more/heter_viskut.htm
> I received a 404 "Page not found" from the site.  TIA for sending a 
> corrected URL.

it is still in the cache: <http://tinyurl.com/26z6t>

they seem to be reorganizing their site.
the other url is my own, at geocities' mercy. checked it just before posting.
> <http://www.geocities.com/proppentrecker/bioethik.html>
(scroll forward to heter hamekhirah)
> /dw

Rabbi Mandel noted that
> The individual who found the bugs
> in the water, reportedly in Brooklyn and mid-Manhattan, was brought down
> to the OU, where he worked for 3 hours trying to find a single bug or
> crustacean. There were none. He did bring a sample of what he had found;
> all everybody could see without a magnifying glass was dots and specks.

One must establish where in Manhattan the test was made. Much of Manhattan
is served by the Croton water system, rather than the Catskill-Delaware
system which serves most of the city, including Brooklyn. The Croton
system is more contaminated than the other but also less likely to have
the crustaceans in question because of many fewer suitable hosts.

> Someone reported that the Chazon Ish assered dots on oranges that he was
> told by experts with magnifying glasses were bugs. I don't know the case,
> but it is clear according to halokho that if I see a speck I don't have to
> bring it to someone with a microscope to look at, unless I see it moving.

This is a makhlokes which has been going on for a while. While Rav Moshe
Feinstein held that one must be able to see what is clearly a "bug,"
both Rav Shlomo Zalman z"l and Rav Elyashiv held that if it is visible,
even as a speck, and might be a bug it requires b'dika

> 2) SA YD 84 says if they grow in the water in kelim they are muttar;
> do these have that din?

Rav Belsky has tried to use this a basis for leniency. If one know the NYC
water supply system it seems impossible to justify this heter. It also
requires learning the sugya in a rather forced way. It is important to
keep in mind that the term reservoir does not mean a big concrete box;
most of the NYC reservoirs are lakes.

It is clear that the crustaceans in question are found in the
Catskill-Delaware water and it requires extraordinary mental gymnastics
to deny that they are shrotzei hamayim. The question remains whether
there is a halakhic reason to be concerned, but we want to be careful
to treat this as a question whose answer is not foreordained.

Melech Press

> The rav took it for granted that the sefard/ashkenaz refers to the
> doctor/helper and not to the patient. However, several of us were not
> convinced.

WHy would it apply to the patient? The doctor is the one doing the
melacha, after all.

Akiva

Micha Berger wrote:
> Why is qal vachomer considered a midah of derashah, rather than a
> form of sevarah?

I think that it is both.

The "middot", the hermeneutical rules, relate only to the analysis of, and
deriving halachot from, the text of the Torah. Thus even if, lu yetzuyar,
a person needed a mesorah for a kal v'homer to derive a halacha from
psukim, this would not mean that he would need such a mesorah to make
a kal v'homer in regular logical discourse.

For example, if one says "the Rambam would asser such-and-such as chametz
erev Pesach, kal v'homer on Pesach itself" he is using a kal ve'homer as a
logical, not a hermeneutical, principle; this argument would be valid even
if kal v'homer were not one of the middot sheha-Torah nidreshet bahen, or
one needed a mesorah for a kal v'homer in deriving halachot from psukim.

Thus the inclusion of kal v'homer among the middot means that this valid
*logical* principle (svarah) is *also* a valid midda of drasha. However,
once again, even if it weren't, it would still be a valid principle
 outside the framework of drishat hapsukim.

Saul Mashbaum

I have a letter dated May 14, 2004 that was written and circulated
by R' Dovid Ribiat of Monsey, explaining that according to R'
Yisroel Belsky, R' Shmuel Feurst [and R' Dovid Feinstein], even
sheitels that are definitely made from Indian hair are permissible
according to R' Moshe Feinstein, zt"l. The letter can be viewed at:
<http://www1.cs.columbia.edu/~spotter/Letter.pdf>

The teshuva from R' Elyashiv that RYGB referenced can be viewed at:
<http://www1.cs.columbia.edu/~spotter/R.Elyashiv.pdf>

In this three page teshuva, R' Elyashiv makes the following points,
based on the facts as explained to him by an expert in the field:

1) the hair is not offered to the idol, but, in fact, the hair is
considered "tamei" and the Indian women only enter the "Bais Avodah Zarah"
after their hair has been shorn.

2) whether the hair is takroves avodah zara depends solely on the da'as of
the barber and not on the intentions of the women getting their hair cut.

KT
Aryeh

On Mon, 17 May 2004 11:26:38 -0500, Avodah wrote:
> Interesting reading on Rabbi A. Abadi's web site regarding the
> previous investigation of Indian hair.
> http://www.kashrut.org/forum/viewpost.asp?mid=7727

I have been disturbed by this disagreement with earlier psakim.
The "official" answer s that the method of worship in India changed in
the last 20 years. Personally I find that very hard to believe.

Eli Turkel,  turkel@post.tau.ac.il on 5/18/2004
Department of Mathematics, Tel Aviv University

Just to add one more name of rabbanim who are matir sheitels made from
Indian hair: Rav Aaron Felder (of Philadelphia; a talmid muvhak of R'
Moshe) said yesterday (unequivocally) that these sheitels are mutar and
are not takroves avodah zarah.

KT,
Aryeh

Saul Guberman wrote:
>Interesting reading on Rabbi A. Abadi's web site regarding the previous
>investigation of Indian hair.
>http://www.kashrut.org/forum/viewpost.asp?mid=7727

The original and much more complete version is from frumteens. It is a
very well balanced presentation of issues that are increasing heading
in a very unpleasant direction <http://tinyurl.com/2zp2e>

Micha Berger wrote:
> Why is qal vachomer considered a midah of derashah, rather than a
> form of sevarah?

A kal vahomer is an argument of the form: X is more stringent than Y
in contexts a, b, and c, ..., and there are no known cases where X is
less stringent than Y, therefore X is always more stringent than Y,
even in unknown cases.

If it weren't a midda it wouldn't necessarily be true. It's an argument
based on silence, which is sometimes persuasive but not irrefutable.

David Riceman

Micha writes
> Except according to REED who says they're ma'asei H' but part of
>hester panim, that teva is an illusion. The Ramban might hold 
>similarly, depending upon which Ramban you look at. Which would be a 
>lack of HP but not because Hashem allows something else to to
>take over.

This got me all confused. If there is hester panim why is teva an 
illusion. Why noy just say that hester panim means hashem lets teva 
take over except in extreme cases.

"depending on which Ramban" - what does that mean. We know that the 
Ramban seems to contradict himself nevertheless the Ramban in Iyov 
seems to allow for teva.

Reminds me of a story I once heard (dont vouch for its truth). That 
Prof. Twersky at Harvard had a charedi student studying the Ramban.
Finally Twersky got rid of him and said that he would never finish his 
PhD because he would try and answer every contradiction in the Ramban 
and some of them have no answer.

Eli Turkel,  turkel@post.tau.ac.il on 5/18/2004
Department of Mathematics, Tel Aviv University

Re a recent OB discussion about Yetsiv Pisgom.

I have a cheaply-printed soft-cover sefer'l called Zichron Meir -
Toros and vertlech - in both LHK and Yiddish - by RM Shapiro zt'l -
published in 1954 in NY by his brother Rav Avrohom Shapiro.

The first article in that booklet is an interesting Maamar [al pi drush]
by their father Rav Yaakov Shimshon - on the last line of YP - a novel
pshat on "Yehonoson Gvar Anveson b'chein namti ley apiryon".

As this sefer seems to be quite rare - as are peirushim on YP - I am
happy to scan and send this 2- page piece - lechol doresh.

SBA
sba@iprimus.com.au

On Mon, May 17, 2004 at 02:05:14PM +0200, Daniel Eidensohn wrote:
:>Just pointing out that HP and sechar va'onesh in this world are different
:>questions; HP is broader.

: Do you have sources that the Maharal and the Rishonim differentiate
: between these concepts?

It is possible to believe that HQBH's HP is guided by things other
than sechar va'onesh. However, sechar va'onesh in olam hazeh would be
instances of HP. Therefore, the question of HP is broader than whether
there is sechar va'onesh in this world. Definitionally. I don't see need
for a ra'ayah that the two concepts need not be identical. A ra'ayah
would only prove that we believe that non SvO HP exists, or doesn't.
I was asking for an exploration of this issue by pointing out its
existance. I was not suggesting I have an answer.

If one holds "sechar mitzvos behai alma leikah" in a very literal sense,
is he necessarily denying all HP? How about "bederekh she'adam rotzeh
leileikh" -- is "molikhim oso" a matter of reward? Does R' Aqiva's "letav
avad" refer to the good of din, or to what's best for the person --
including deferring din for the moment? What about HQBH acting bemidas
Rachamim -- is that sechar, or is claiming that rachamim is a sechar
simply paradoxical (if it's earned, it's din)? Are yissurim shel ahavah
a form of onesh -- perhaps because they're instead of a worse onesh? (If
one deserves a worse onesh, how can such yissurim be instead?)

IMHO, there are too many statements of HQBH doing things in our lives
that simply don't fit a straight sechar ve'onesh model.

Maybe they're all for the purpose of Divine Justice, but not every event
in our lives are themselves reward or punishment.



On Tue, May 18, 2004 at 02:34:12PM +0300, Eli Turkel wrote:
: This got me all confused. If there is hester panim why is teva an 
: illusion. Why noy just say that hester panim means hashem lets teva 
: take over except in extreme cases.

Because it's denying a "thing" called teva interposing itself between
Hashem and events in this world. It's sayin there is total HP, however,
some of that HP is hidden by Hashem acting in pattwens we have gotten
used to -- and used to dismissing.

: "depending on which Ramban" - what does that mean. We know that the 
: Ramban seems to contradict himself nevertheless the Ramban in Iyov 
: seems to allow for teva.

"Depending on which [quote from the] Ramban" was my way of acnkowledging
the contradiction. It's possible other resolutions exist in which the
conclusion you see in Iyov simply isn't there.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 42nd day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        6 weeks in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Malchus sheb'Yesod: Why is self-control and
Fax: (413) 403-9905       reliability crucial for universal brotherhood?

At 07:34 AM 5/18/2004, [RET] wrote:
>Reminds me of a story I once heard (dont vouch for its truth). That
>Prof. Twersky at Harvard had a charedi student studying the Ramban.
>Finally Twersky got rid of him and said that he would never finish his
>PhD because he would try and answer every contradiction in the Ramban
>and some of them have no answer.

Wonder what his shverr would have thought of such a shocking incident.

YGB  

In a message dated 5/18/04 2:37:15 PM EDT, AStein@wtplaw.com writes:
> The letter can be viewed at:
> <http://www1.cs.columbia.edu/~spotter/Letter.pdf>

There is a problem with a line in it (of course in the most important
place <g>) can this be corrected?

Kol Tuv,
Yitzchok Zirkind

Akiva Atwood wrote:
>IIRC a Kal v'Chomer needs a mesorah -- and without that mesorah we
>can't bring a KvC.

Carl wrote:
>The Gemara says that you cannot make them >without a mesorah.

What about the Gemara in Pesachim 66a that you can make a kal vachomer
on your own but not a gezeirah shavah?

Gil Student
gil@aishdas.org
www.aishdas.org/student

Micha Berger wrote:
>On Mon, May 17, 2004 at 02:05:14PM +0200, Daniel Eidensohn wrote:
>:>Just pointing out that HP and sechar va'onesh in this world are different
>:>questions; HP is broader.

>: Do you have sources that the Maharal and the Rishonim differentiate
>: between these concepts?

>It is possible to believe that HQBH's HP is guided by things other
>than sechar va'onesh....
>Maybe they're all for the purpose of Divine Justice, but not every event
>in our lives are themselves reward or punishment.

My point is an extension of the original question as to whether there
is such a thing as coincidence, nature or mazel. There is a major
disparity between the way these issues are presented in the Rishonim
and even in the Maharal and the way "everyone" views it today. Thus HP
for the rishonim was something added onto the base line of chance or
mazel. It was viewed as reward and punishment. The tenth principle of the
Rambam is that G-d knows everything. The 11th is reward and punishment.
Where is HP in the modern sense? The commonly expressed contemporary
idea of HP is that events in one's life are providing signals or hints
of what direction one should be going or what information G-d feels that
you need. This concept of Divine mission is lacking in the rishonim -
except concerning major figures such as Yosef or events that impact
history or a king. Thus to answer the original question. In the world
of the rishonim and the Maharal - life was chance but with proper zechus
one would be protected against harm or the influence of nature or mazel.
Thus HP is reward and punishment. Good and bad things don't happen by
chance but are a result of reward and punishment. On the other hand
I have found no source that indicates that the rishonim or the Maharal
felt that a person was to assume that what happens to him is a Divine
message of what one is supposed to do with his life. "That event X
happened at the time of event Y and isn't that amazing because G-d is
obviously sending me a message. Because there are no coincidences it must
mean something ." None of the issues you raised seem to be understood
by the rishonim in terms other than reward and punishment. If you have
any sources to the contrary I would appreciate seeing them. Thus I am
asserting that you are using the modern concept of HP which of course
is much broader than reward and punishment. The Maharal, however, was
not modern and did not have this concept of HP.

             Daniel Eidensohn

<In the article about the kashrut of coca cola Rabbi Gefen was interested
in "Ein Mevatlin Issur Lechatchila" There is a Teshuva of RMF on ice
cream than deals with davar hamaamid. RMF not seem to be concerned about
bitul of an issur if has 60. I understood that that if a nonJewish firms
adds minute amounts of nonkosher products it is not considered mevatel
issur lechatchila.>

Brian wrote
> I remember coming across a Teshuva of R' Akiva Eiger number 207 (see
> this article <http://tinyurl.com/27et> [converted from a long koltorah.org
> address -mi] the end of the 1st part) where he entertains the idea that
> Basar B'chalav that is less than 60 is mutar l'chatchila since it's
> "ki'ilu eino".

imteresting. However, both the questions of coca cola and icecreams 
involve questions of nonkosher products not basar bechalav

> I remember also seeing a machlokes in 2 Tosephos (one was in Chullin
> and I can't remember the other) whether you can apply ein mevatlin issur
> l'chatchila to something less than 60.

If so when does ein mevatlim apply?

kol tuv
Eli Turkel,  turkel@post.tau.ac.il on 5/19/2004
Department of Mathematics, Tel Aviv University

ROY recently has stated that one doesn't fulfil the mitzvah of tzedaka
by giving money to a secular Jew who does not wash and make hamotzi
over bread.
What could be the halakhic basis that one indeed does not do a mitzvah
by giving money to a poor non-religious Jew?

Eli Turkel,  turkel@post.tau.ac.il on 5/19/2004
Department of Mathematics, Tel Aviv University

R' Akiva Miller wrote on Areivim about the Shelah's tefillah for parents, to
be said erev Rosh Chodesh Sivan. He wrote, in part:
> The particular tefilah under discussion is at
> http://www.ou.org/other/5762/parentsprayer.htm

>                                                       .... But I *am*
> curious: What does it have to do with Erev Rosh Chodesh Sivan? That
> site quotes the Shelah as writing that "the most appropriate time
> to recite this prayer is on Erev Rosh Chodesh Sivan, for that is the
> month when Hashem gave us His Torah, and when we began to be called His
> children." But I still don't see the connection. Why is this day better
> than Rosh Chodesh Sivan itself? Or Erev Shavuos? (Or even Shavuos itself,
> were it not for that we don't make private prayers such as this.)

On Areivim, I replied that I assume that the tefillah was written for Yom
Kippur Qatan, and that a baqashah on YKQ makes sense.

Right after sending that off, a problem hit me. Lema'aseh, we were called His
banim before all the makas, well before Matan Torah. Hashem sends Moshe back
to Mitzrayim with a mission to tell Par'oh to free "beni bekhori Yisrael"
(Shemos 4:22).

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 43rd day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        6 weeks and 1 day in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Chesed sheb'Malchus: How does unity result in
Fax: (413) 403-9905                           good for all mankind?

-mi

Eli Turkel wrote:
>What could be the halakhic basis that one indeed does
>not do a mitzvah by giving money to a poor non-religious Jew?

If you do not accept that these people are tinokos she-nishbu, then the
conclusion is very clear (Yoreh Deah 251:1-2).

Gil Student
gil@aishdas.org
www.aishdas.org/student

RDE:
> The commonly expressed contemporary
> idea of HP is that events in one's life are providing signals or hints
> of what direction one should be going or what information G-d feels that
> you need. This concept of Divine mission is lacking in the rishonim...

See Wolfson's book "Repercussions of the Kalam in Jewish Philosophy"
chapters 8 and 9 (he agrees with you).

David Riceman

*********************


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