Avodah Mailing List

Volume 13 : Number 023

Friday, May 14 2004

• Re: coincidence according to the Maharal
• Re: coincidence according to the Maharal
• Re: Music during Sefira
• Re: Music during Sefira
• Kal Vachomer
• Re: Music during Sefira
• Re: When is a Mechitzah Necessary?
• Sources regarding pluralism/tolerance
• Re: Indian hair, Sheitels and AZ
• Indian Hair
• Re: Indian hair, Sheitels and AZ
• Re: Indian hair, Sheitels and AZ
• Re: Sources regarding pluralism/tolerance
• Re: Sources regarding pluralism/tolerance
• upsheren / upsherin - to do or not to do?
• Re: Indian hair, Sheitels and AZ
• Re: Indian hair, Sheitels and AZ
• Re: Indian hair, Sheitels and AZ
• Re: Indian hair, Sheitels and AZ
• RE: Indian hair, Sheitels and AZ
• RE: Indian hair, Sheitels and AZ
• RE: Indian hair, Sheitels and AZ
• RE: Indian hair, Sheitels and AZ
• RE: Indian hair, Sheitels and AZ
• Re: Avodah V13 #22
• Indian hair, Sheitels and AZ
• kashing plastic.
• gematrios as conspicuous consumption
• Re: Music during Sefira
• Re: Kal Vachomer
• Re: Valid halachic change

> the commonly accepted notion
> that people seem to have of "nothing in life happens by chance"; that
> everything that happens is because of hashgocho pratis.

this is but a latter-day dossery. see daniel eidensohn's long answer.
/dw

There are numerous shitos about the universality of hashgachah peratis
(among people and among 2nd, among events that don't affect people)
and whether teva is real.

RMMS has a survey of shitos on the subject, the Iggeres is at
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/protis.pdf> and my summary thereof
is at <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol09/v09n042.shtml#12>.

RGS posted a summary of the Sifsei Chaim, who doesn't
understand some of these shitos the way RMMS does.
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol12/v12n004.shtml#07>

For that matter, see the entire threads "Hashgacha Protis" and variants
off the archive's alphabetical index. Allocate a lot of time -- we've
debated the subject frequently. But there was plenty of debate about
each of the opinions presented and whether RGS and I understood them
as intended.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 37th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        5 weeks and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Yesod: When does reliability
Fax: (413) 403-9905               require one to be strict with another?

> IIRC a Kal v'Chomer needs a mesorah -- and without that mesorah we can't
> bring a KvC.

you remember incorrectly.
gezerah shawah was the word.

/dw

Akiva Atwood wrote:
>IIRC a Kal v'Chomer needs a mesorah -- and without that mesorah we can't
>bring a KvC.

There are many sources that permit a kal v'chomer:

Nidah(19b); Pesachim (66a); Rashi (Pesachim 61a) say that a kal v'chomer 
is what a person makes up by himself as opposed to what he receives from 
the Mesora going back to Sinai. Rashi (Sanhedrin 73a); Rashi(Menachos 
82b); Rashi(Succah 32a).
 Tosfos(Sukkah 31a) says all midos can be used without mesorah except 
gezera shaveh.

Maharetz Chajes (Shabbos 87a) says it is normal logic.

Could not find anyplace where it says you can not use one today.

Daniel Eidensohn

On Thu, May 13, 2004 at 07:07:04PM +0200, Daniel Eidensohn wrote:
: Maharetz Chajes (Shabbos 87a) says it is normal logic.

Perhaps it's time to re-open a question I've asked here before without
getting an answer: Why is qal vachomer considered a midah of derashah,
rather than a form of sevarah?

"Ein oneshim min hadin" requires that QvC not be just another rule
of sevarah. But that's a conclusion from, not a reason for, this
categorization.

-mi

In a message dated 5/13/2004 11:18:57 AM EDT, akiva@atwood.co.il writes:
> IIRC a Kal v'Chomer needs a mesorah -- and without that mesorah we can't
> bring a KvC.

where does the gemorah say this? I thought it was clear that a gzeira
shava needed a mesorah and aK"V didn't. The question was which is the rule
and which is the exception for the other midot shehatora nidreshet bahem.

KT
Joel RIch

In Avodah V13 #22, RSBA added:
> this morning someone showed me the Ben Ish Chai [Year 2 p2] writing
> that in Baghdad [especially amongst the wealthy] women did not eat on
> one table with men - even if there were no guests

And we know that this was done for Halachic reasons (rather than because 
Iraqis, Jewish or not, segregated men and women in various circumstances) 
because...?

All the best from
Michael Poppers * ELizabeth, NJ

I am interested in exploring sources that relate to issues which we today
term "pluralism" or "tolerance" within the larger Jewish community.
Such questions as the parameters and implications of "eilu va'eilu",
in what cases a disagreeing interlocutor may still be considered within
the arba` amot of halakha, and what value is places on communal harmony
and what may (and may not) be done to maintain it. This may sound
somewhat vague, and it is, but I'd like ideas for sources (Talmud, codes,
mahhshavah, posqim) that relate to these issues.

Thanks,
	-Shlomo-

The following article in an Israeli newspaper [don't know which],
contained in three .jpg files referenced through the links below, was
forwarded to me yesterday. It describes the background of the Indian hair
sheitel question, the fact-finding missions, the meeting of rabbonim
and the responses of R' Moshe Sternbuch, R' Nissim Karelitz and R'
Shmuel Wosner, shlita.

<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/wig1.jpg>
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/wig2.jpg>
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/wig3.jpg>

Since then R' Elyashiv's psak [l'issur] has come out. The ksav yad of
R' Elyashiv's psak [penned by R' Efrati] was posted on Areivim by SBA,
but for convenience's sake here it is:
<http://tinyurl.com/33nqm>

This same link leads to a Hebrew Arutz Sheva article that claims
R' Elyashiv, shlita, was matir hair from China and Korea. Also the
prohibited Indian hair sheitlach are "te'unos kevurah." Also, sheitlach
whose provenance is a safek, "kinereh yei'asru gam heim."

The moros in Yeshiva of Spring Valley [Monsey] are today wearing
tichelach.

Henoch Moshe Levin  

David Hojda wrote: 
> Curious as to the great controversy about shaitels derived from hair used
> for avodaha zarah, I did a basic Google on Indian women hair sacrifice
> and came up with this:
> <http://www.venushairdesign.co.uk/hair_extensions/hair_extensions.htm>

This website cited by R. Hojda says that the Indian women cut their
hair as an offering to their god. It is still unclear, however, whether
that makes the hair prohibited as "takruvot avodah zarah." For example,
it may be that the hair itself is not consecrated during the ceremony,
but rather the intent (like the giluach of the nazir, per the gemara's
story of the person with beautiful tresses etc. who declared nizirut so
as to cut his hair and frustrate the yetzer hora) is that the person's
hair was cut and the "sacrifice" is that they are removing their
"beauty." (This is implied by some of the comments on the web site.)
Although I am not remotely an expert in Indian idolatrous practices,
it would seem that the fact that the hair is sold to be made into wigs
is inconsistent with the idea that the hair itself was consecrated.
[Unless they too have a halacha of na'asis mitzvoso yotaz le-chulin
:-) ]. Tonight, YIH, I will check whether there is support for this
cheftza/ma'aseh distinction in hilchot avoda zarah.

Shalom L. Kohn

[R' Henoch Moshe Levin:]
>The moros in Yeshiva of Spring Valley [Monsey] are today wearing
>tichelach.

My daughter tells me that Rabbi Faivelson ruled that the teachers at
the Bais Yaakov of Monsey must come to school in tichels or snoods only -
even those who wear artificial sheitels. Teachers who showed up in
sheitels were sent home to change (the girls got a kick out of that!),
even one of the most prominent and elder Rebbitzens in town who works
at BY. Some teachers who came in hats had to be checked out to see if
they were sufficient cover.

YGB 

Does anyone have a sense of the percentage of sheitels of Indian origin?
If it's significant, does the story of the GRA trying to reintroduce
daily duchening play a role(ie should we see this as a heavenly psak that
sheitels are inappropriate since so many who live al taharat hakodesh
were nichshol?) On the more kabbalistic front, has anyone come up with
a tikkun for those who unwittingly were over an issur chamur?

KT
Joel Rich

Try R' Michael Rosensweig's article "Elu Va-Elu Divre Elokim
Hayyim: Halakhic Pluralism And Theories Of Controversy" at
<http://www.lookstein.org/articles/elu_ve_elu.htm>.

Gil Student
gil@aishdas.org
www.aishdas.org/student

> Such questions as the parameters and implications of "eilu va'eilu",

beth shamay and beth hilel again - yevamoth perek1, last mishnah

/dw

From: [R Elly Krimsky] Rebelkrim@aol.com
> Am I wrong about this? What specifically is the connection between Lag
> Ba'omer and upsherin? I understand the connection between upsherin and
> the age 3 but do not see the connection to Lag Baomer.

> Also, is there any move to avoid cutting girls' hair for 3 years?

I believe that R. Elly was not around when we discussed this issue in
depth a while ago - and that was on areivim too - so we can't direct
him to some pages in the avodah archives. So I think it is appropriate
that the topic be discussed again and this time on Avodah - so that
a different position on the issue, un or little-known to some, can be
adequately represented.

The upsheren custom of Hassidim, which at first glance seems like some
venerable and ancient custom no good Jew would oppose, is actually
a controversial new custom which they picked up from certain middle
eastern Jews called 'mustarbim', which was and is rejected by certain
great gedolim and communities.

Although proponents attempt to attach it to the mitzvoh of orlah (fruit
from newly planted trees prohibited for first three years, etc.) (Vayikra
19:23-25), early mekoros (Rabbinic sources) (e.g. Rokeach 296, Daas
Zikeinim Mibaalei Tosfos on Vayikra 19:23), as well as later ones
(e.g. Eliyohu Rabbah 17:3, Ohr Hachaim on Vayikra 19:23), omit any mention
of such an custom, even, while at the same time, they mention approvingly
an old minhag to start a young boy in Torah learning at that time. There
is also no mention of it in very detailed, lengthy and comprehensive
works, such as the Shulchan Oruch and siddur of Rav Yaakov Emden.

The attempt to place the posthumous imprimatur of the Ar'i on it via
a tale told of him allegedly having given his son a haircut on lag
ba'omer is not as simple as it may appear initially as well. It comes
from an account by Rav Chaim Vital, but the language in the account is
not clear and it's not certain if it refers to the Ar"i or someone else
who was with him. Also, it it happened before the Ar"i reached his great
stature in Kabbalah, which occurred later in his life, and therefore
he may have not held of it then, as per his shita, based on kabbalah,
not to cut hair for the whole sefira period, including lag ba'omer.

In Ashkenazic communities of Lita, Germany, Hungary (Oberland), etc.,
the upsheren custom was not accepted, and the young boys were given
haircuts at a young age (sometimes when just a few months or even weeks
old), without any special event/celebration around it. Similarly, it was
not recognized in Sepharadic communities in Amsterdam, Hamburg, London
at all, as it was not done in Spain. In certain Moroccan communities,
the hair was cut at the age of nine months. In the famed 'sheva kehillos'
of Hungary, they cut the hair at one year of age. In Yemen too, the hair
was cut with no special celebration.

The renowned Brisker Rav, Rav Velvel Soloveitchik (HaGRY"Z), when he
came to Eretz Yisroel and was brought a child for such hair cutting,
declined, saying 'ich bin nisht kein sherer' (I am not a barber). His
position was explained with the following logic. Even if someone has long
hair, he is not oveir (doesn't transgress) the prohibition of 'lo sakifu
peas roshchem' (not to cut off sideburns / peiyos). So when you give
a child his first haircut, even his hair is lengthy, you are not doing
a mitzvoh - so it is just a regular haircut - so if you need a barber,
go find a barber - I am a Rav, not a barber.

The Steipler Gaon, Rav Yaakov Yisroel Kanievsky z"l, also refused to
go along with it. It is told (in sefer 'orchos Rabbeinu', by his talmid
Rav Avrohom Horowitz, volume one, p.233) that he would drive away ( ! )
people who came to him with three year old boys asking him to cut their
hair and was very angry about it ( ! ).

A very significant consideration is also the question if there is a
problem of 'chukos hagoyim' with the custom. While we don't generally
see it now (in western countries at least), the fact is that in certain
eastern cultures (e.g. arab and hindu / Indian) a great deal was/is
made of a son's first haircut and it was accompanied by a significant
celebration. It seems that those Jews who started the custom Jews
lived among such gentiles. So there is a concern that it may well have
originated in gentile practice. The discussion now underway re a serious
concern of avoda zara (idolatry) with human hair wigs from India made
from hair Indian women there cut off at Hindu temples as part of giving
thanks to their deities shows how real this concern is - even in our
modern era - and certainly in past years.

We also have clear traditions and sources from the gemara on down
that talk of cutting a young boy's hair before he is three years old -
in some cases much before - with no mention of such contradicting any
'upsheren'/'chalakah' type custom. The gemara (Moed Kotton 14a) says
that a youngster born with long hair can be given a haircut right
away. The Shita Mikubetzes (Nedorim 30a) says that the hair of young
boys was regularly and often cut. In Eastern Europe, non-Hassidic Jews
customarily cut a son's hair when he started to speak without waiting
until three years of age. In the family of the 'Steipler Gaon', hair
of his grandchildren was cut at two years of age, without any special
event being made of it / surrounding it.

Even among Hassidim, not all do the same thing. IIRC, Chassidei Gur
and Skvira, cut the hair at two years of age - not three - which seems
difficult to understand if it is based on orloh.

Among others (e.g. Sephardic Jews in Yerusholayim), the haircutting came
even later - at five years of age.

The above is from various sources, but mostly from an excellent survey
of the matter in 'Shorshei Minhag Ashkenaz', volume III, by Rav Binyomin
Shlomo Hamburger, Mochon Moreshes Ashkenaz, Bnei Brak, 5762.

There is more to say on the matter, but this should qualify as an
introductory survey to let people know the position of those who oppose
the custom.

Mordechai

In a message dated 05/13/2004 5:28:55 PM EDT,
sbechhof@casbah.it.northwestern.edu writes:
> My daughter tells me that Rabbi Faivelson ruled that the teachers at
> the Bais Yaakov of Monsey must come to school in tichels or snoods only -
> even those who wear artificial sheitels.

why the lo Plug?
KT
Joel Rich

[RJR:]
>In a message dated 05/13/2004 5:28:55 PM EDT,
>sbechhof@casbah.it.northwestern.edu writes:
>> My daughter tells me that Rabbi Faivelson ruled that the teachers at
>> the Bais Yaakov of Monsey must come to school in tichels or snoods only -
>> even those who wear artificial sheitels.

>why the lo Plug?

I'm not sure.

YGB 

R' Henoch Moshe Levin wrote:
>The moros in Yeshiva of Spring Valley [Monsey] are today wearing
>tichelach

I was told that in Bnei Berak - in one of the major Beis Yaakov schools
- the principal ordered the teachers to wear sheitel or go home - for
reasons of chinuch.

The issue - which is a major earthquake - still needs clarification.

Daniel Eidenoshn

>> My daughter tells me that Rabbi Faivelson ruled that the teachers at
>> the Bais Yaakov of Monsey must come to school in tichels or snoods only 
>> even those who wear artificial sheitels.

>why the lo Plug?

<sbechhof@casbah.it.northwestern.edu> wrote:
I'm not sure.

I have been told that even synthetic ones are sometimes blended with
real hair.

From: Akiva Atwood <>
It may not be so simple -- I know of at least one posek here in Jerusalem
who says that what is offered to the AZ is NOT the woman's hair but
her *beauty*.

Therefore, the hair is not assur.

I quote from the main  Indian temple site:

DEVOTION - Devotees contribute gold, jewellery and hair to help 
V. [name of AZ] repay the debt on his wedding loan.

OFFERINGS -  Many V. temples observe the practice of hair offerings.
<<

Sound pretty AZish to me

SBA

> Sound pretty AZish to me

Depends on how accurate they actually looked into the issues. Did the Rav
actually visit the temple, for example? Did he speak to the women in
question? The priests of the temple? The religious leaders?

I've been discussing this with some friends who are more than a little
familiar with the subject.

Indian religious beliefs/practices are MUCH more complicated than western
ones -- we're suspicious about the speed of the "research".

Akiva

From: Akiva Atwood <akiva@atwood.co.il>
>Indian religious beliefs/practices are MUCH more complicated than western
>ones -- we're suspicious about the speed of the "research".

Maybe you'd be doing the world a favour by discussing all this with the RM
Sternbuch - who first brought it to the worlds attention.

SBA

> Maybe you'd be doing the world a favour by discussing all this with the RM
> Sternbuch - who first brought it to the worlds attention.

This time, maybe -- but it's NOT a new shailah. I know people who went
into the Eidah 15 years ago with the same shailah -- and there was at
least one more round of the shailah years before that.

AND -- one of the people I know HAS discussed the issue with him.

Also, to quote R' Belsky: "One of the difficulties, he said, was
discerning just what the Hindu hair-cutters had in their minds when they
made their offerings, because that had a bearing on whether their acts
were idolatrous."

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/14/nyregion/14WIG.html

Akiva

I just head from a reliable source that R. Dunner was in India and checked
out the issue. He supposedly said that when he asked the Indian woman why
they give their hair to this Gechka they said, "Because he loves hair".

HM

A bit of history - this is not the first wig/issur hanaa crisis. In the
sixties there was a similar debate , then the issue was the possible use
of hair from dead bodies, subsequently imported by wig makers in the US
and Europe.

Many years ago I saw some related articles in old copies of Hapardes,
where leading rabbanim wrote on this. Does anyone remember this
episode? There is a site with PDFs of all the old Hapardes's but I do
not know if there is a friendly search tool there.

Avraham

It has been suggested by R' Shalom L. Kohn that although the gezizah may
be an act of avodah zara, the hair itself is not necessarily tikroves. It
seems however from the following American news story published more than
a year ago that the hair is very much an offering given to the avodah
zarah, i.e. tikroves.

Here is an article from an American news source in Tennessee from more
than a year ago describing the pilgrimage to Tirupati, the sacrifice of
the hair and the subsequent marketing.

[For those who may be reading it out loud to someone else, note that the
article includes names of elohim acherim that are currently worshipped
and to which "lo yishama al picha" may well apply.]

http://www.tennessean.com/special/hair/archives/03/03/29911318.shtml

For some reason I always thought that one couldn't kasher plastic.
I just asked a shaliah (in regards to buying a factory refurbished
kitchen aid mixer, as never bought anything 2nd hand b4) and was told
that I could even kasher the utensils that it comes with.

Is this the "normal" psak in regards to plastic?

thanks,
shaya

This morning I happened to be in the main office of a major corporation
and I noticed the vast waste of space. It reminded me of Veblen's
observation that people tend to waste resources to demonstrate their
status.

I personally don't even have time to seriously review the things I'm
supposed to know, and when I do learn new things I'm generally happy if I
understand pshat. I started thinking about some pshettlach I've heard in
the name of the Gra, and wondering if people who have time to generate
fancy notarikon and gematrias are indulging in a form of conspicuous
connsumption (there are certain contexts in which gematrios and notarikon
are functional, but my impression is that these are unusual). That is,
I wonder whether spending the time to indulge in gematrios is a way
of saying: "I've already been hozer al mishnati and now I can learn
something else".

Presumably there are nafka minos. For example, when the mishna says
tekufos ugematrios parparos l'hochma is it setting priorities (I suspect,
by the way, in spite of the Bartenura, that the mishna means geometry,
not gematriya)? Would the Rambam classify generating gematrios as Talmud?

David Riceman

R' Micha Berger asked <<< I am not sure that voice, acapella, is mutar
lekhol hadei'os. I never got replies on my earlier question: How do we
define music: a) for aveilus, omer and the three weeks; >>>

Sorry I missed this question the first time. On page 2 of "Halachos of
the Three Weeks", Rav Shimon Eider writes:

<<< Most Poskim hold that even during the Nine Days there is no issur of
singing niggunim without musical instruments [Hebrew note in my own
translation:] (It seems that zimrah is not the issur, but rather songs of
simcha, because songs of tzaar are allowed even on Tisha B'Av, such as
the minhag to sing Eli Tzion. And see Yosef Ometz 421 who writes to sing
Shabbos zmiros in a low voice, and see Kaf Hachaim note 41.) >>>

I hope that helps.

Akiva Miller

A kal v chomer is a logical argument you can certainly make one without
a mesorah, on the other hand a hekish or geziras shavah (or any of the
principles other than kal vechomer) you need a mesorah.
See pesachim 61a, rashi sukkah 31 a sv lo makshinin
Ramban hasagos to sefer hamitzvos shoresh bet
Resposna Har Zvi OH volume 1 section 43

Ari Kahn

On Mon, May 10, 2004 at 02:55:14PM -0400, T613K@aol.com wrote:
: I think we had better assume that halachic reasoning is Boolean...
...
: BTW interestingly in re another thread, for halachic psak you must pick
: one or the other--treif or kosher, one candle first night or eight candles
: first night--but for Torah learning a range of contradictories might be
: "true", look at eilu ve'eilu and the teachings of Hillel and Shammai.

I was at a yarchei (yarei'ach? shavu'ah -- since it was only a
week?) kallah during Elul in Boston where RYBS explicitly said is wasn't.
He also speaks about multivalent logic in halakhah in numederous places
in Ish haHalakhah. From the YK:

An esrog that was used for the mitzvah is qadosh and assur behana'ah
that entire day. And since it's qadosh bein hashemashos, it's gadosh
part of the next day and therefore assur behan'ah the entire next day.

RYBS asked (as do many) mimanafshach: Either BhS is part of the first
day, and there's an isur hana'ah BhS. But in that case BhS isn't part
of the next day, and on that day han'ah should be mutar. Or, BhS is part
of the 2nd day, and the issur would end BhS!

Rather, for certain sefeiqos both chalosim apply. It's only when the
chalos turns into a pe'ulah that we are forced to choose.

Therefore, one can daven either minchah or ma'ariv BhS. Even switch off
between days. But not both in the same BhS.

This is why a woman who is from safeiq chalal history (Rashi and Tosafos
disagree on details of the case) is called an "almanas issah", the widow
of a dough, a mixture.

This shtims with the teshuvas RAEiger distinguishing kol deparish meiruba
parish and kol kavu'ah kemechtzah al mechtzah. When the question is one
of pasqening on an unknown situation, we follow rov. When one is trying
to resolve a question that arose after the pesaq, rov doesn't apply.

Rov is a non-boolean state, something between yes and no. Therefore,
it does not apply after we've taken the question from the realm of
machshavah to that of ma'aseh.

Also, Rav Tzadoq (Resisei Laylah 17) distringuishes between the logic of
machshavah and that of pe'ulah, saying that when it comes to machshavah,
it's impossible to consider one thing without also considering its
opposite. RThK then develops this idea to explain eilu va'eilu as being
about real plurality. (More on this when I summarize the articles whose
URLs have been posted to the list.)

:-)BBii!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 38th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        5 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Yesod: How does reliability
Fax: (413) 403-9905           promote harmony in life and relationships?

*********************


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