Avodah Mailing List

Volume 13 : Number 009

Wednesday, April 21 2004

• Re: Limmud or Ma'aseh?: V'hogisoh Boh Yomom Voloiloh
• Re: Limmud or Ma'aseh?: V'hogisoh Boh Yomom Voloiloh
• Re: Limmud or Ma'aseh?: V'hogisoh Boh Yomom Voloiloh
• Heicha kedusha and informal minyanim
• Re: torah portion
• Re: Ikkarim of Dwarves/ Marc Shapiro's New Book
• Re: Limmud or Ma'aseh?: V'hogisoh Boh Yomom Voloiloh
• Re: Circuses... NOT your father's Oldsmobile
• Re: Heicha kedusha and informal minyanim
• Re: davening in plane
• Re: heresy
• Re: heresy
• Sefiras Ho'Omer
• Tefillin Chol Hamoed
• dateline and Australia
• Re: who is a posek
• Apocryphal Story
• Frumer then Chazal (was (no subject))
• Re: Avodah V13 #7

On 20 Apr 2004 at 12:57, Michael Frankel wrote:
> RCarl Sherer:
> Why do you
> say it was rejected? I didn't say that there's anything wrong with
> working. I said that when you're not working, you should be learning.
> Do you think RSRH went to circuses (R"L) when he wasn't taking care of
> his community? >>

> you conveyed the sense 24/7 learning is the “ideal”- what one should
> be doing if one could. 

Ain hachi nami. 

> all else is a concession to human frailty of
> one sort or another.  

And all of us have human frailties. For some of us, our frailty is that
we have difficulty admitting that we are living our lives less than
ideally :-)

> of course one should qoveioh ittim, learning is a very important
> mitzvoh -- but to the exclusion of other activities, even the other
> 612, or the notion that nothing else has intrinsic value? no.

So I can spend my entire day (and night) reading novels as long as I
fix half an hour or an hour per day to learn? Or as long as I say Shma
morning and night? Is that really what HKB"H wants from us?

> <<Learning musar isn't learning?  -- Carl>>

> of course it isn't.   

I would have thought that while the va'adim aren't learning, musar itself
would be.

> The voloshiners were violently against such
> bitul z'man.

So is R. Aaron Lichtenstein (whom you mentioned in a part of your post
that I deleted). Well, probably not 'violently.' When I was a bochur,
he told us to learn Ramban al ha'Torah in lieu of musar.

-- Carl

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son, 
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much. 

Michael Frankel wrote:
> But it was rejected by an even larger Chasidic community -- in an
> earlier iteration I quoted R. levi Yitzchoq's take (Bais Halevi,
> Ovos) as quite different from that of his contemporary R. Chaim V --
> on v'hogisoh boh yomom voloiloh. It was also rejected by TIDE german
> and western societies.

RCarl Sherer:
<<Why do you say it was rejected? I didn't say that there's anything wrong
with working. I said that when you're not working, you should be learning.
Do you think RSRH went to circuses (R"L) when he wasn't taking care of
his community? >>

you conveyed the sense 24/7 learning is the "ideal" -- what one should
be doing if one could. all else is a concession to human frailty of
one sort or another. work? a concession to a need for parnossoh only,
so we may sustain our learning. Games/circuses/recreation of whatever
sort? A concession to our inability to concentrate full time/recharging of
batteries to re-engage in learning. Secular education/reading? actually
I don't recall what opinion you might have expressed but other charedi
"softies" would permit only as a concession for some utilitarian
purpose. Performing a mitzvoh? Better to learn about it if someone else
can take care of it. In all these matters you are quite liberal in a
charedi context which finds less heteirim for non-learning activities. But
I said it was rejected -- because it was rejected. Chasidic and other
non-yeshivish models sees nothing b'dieved about work and sees fulfillment
of v'hogisoh boh also in the torahdika conduct of the daily affairs of
daily life. Other frum models see value and worth e.g. in perusing even
humanist literature (there's an old article by R. aaron lichtenstein
that comes to mind here which includes his praise for the intrinsic --
spiritual? -- value of writings not only by plain "humanist" but by
churchmen) though in theory those minutes too could have been spent
"learning". of course one should qoveioh ittim, learning is a very
important mitzvoh -- but to the exclusion of other activities, even the
other 612, or the notion that nothing else has intrinsic value? no.

RSRH: You ask rhetorically whether RSRH might go to the circus -- I
presume your point was the likely bitul time from learning (or perhaps a
question of t'znius?). I don't know about the circus, though it wouldn't
surprise me as much as it seems it might you. But if you'd phrased it --
might RSRH have gone to a night of Schiller poetry reading? I'd be more
confident the answer is yes.

B'khlol, the introduction of RSRH into this discussion is a note both
odd and revealing. It is odd because RSRH is one of the last people I
could think of who might have signed up for this charedi 24/7 learning
life style.

In fact, the many of the "learners" of RSRH's era and RSRH were at
opposite ideological poles and held (i.e. RSRH and the talmudists)
each other in mutual contempt. it is revealing of contemporary lust
for homogenization -- all our heroes had the same hashkofos -- that
RSRH could possibly be lumped into a discussion of current charedi 24/7
ideology along with its proponents.

>It was even rejected by yeshivish litvaks who > gave formal musar learning, 
>and "p'ilois", precedence for some period > of the day.
<<Learning musar isn't learning?  -- Carl>>

of course it isn't. The voloshiners were violently against such bitul
z'man. R. Chaim Brisker certainly would not have given you any "learning"
credit hours towards your 24. And while "musar yeshvos" were established,
you don't notice that any of them exist anymore so the voloshiners
eventually won that ideological battle. but even the musar forces in
19th century didn't confuse their activities -- significant formal
instructional/study hours during the day, external "actions", in some
places, e.g novoradok, even communist style self-criticism sessions --
with "learning. the point was that here a community of people thought a
non-learning activity -- character building -- had value and should be
pursued at the expense of time that could be spent "learning". If you
wish, you can expand your definition of what constitutes "learning"
so it encompasses formal musar, and of course you seem to do that --
helpful to reconcile an attraction to musar with the new ideology
of 24/7. but this was not done in the past (you can similarly expand
your notion of torah learning to cover many other subjects as well --
i propose physics -- but you end up with a taxonomy so watered down that
it is not useful. RSRH actually did something close to that)

Mechy Frankel
michael.frankel@osd.mil
mfrankel@empc.org
michaeljfrankel@hotmail.com

RCarl Sherer:
> Why do you
> say it was rejected? I didn't say that there's anything wrong with
> working. I said that when you're not working, you should be earning.
> you conveyed the sense 24/7 learning is the “ideal”- what one should
> if one could.   <<Ain hachi nami. >>

precisely what's in dispute. wasn't arguing which is "correct". merely
that legitimate alternative hashkofoh existed/exists. Unqualified
statements that 24/7 learning is "ideal" ignore the fact that it's a
machloqes, and those on the other side were cited. there are other ways to
wish to spend your life. you may argue with those who reject your notion
of the "ideal", but not that they exist as authentically frum tradition.

>all else is a concession to human frailty of one sort or another.

<<And all of us have human frailties. For some of us, our frailty is
that we have difficulty admitting that we are living our lives less than
ideally :-)>>

non-sequitor. the point advanced was that various activities were NOT
viewed as concessions to human frailty but as legitimately l'chatchiloh
life activities -- that 24/7 learning is both new and does not represent
a preferred "ideal".

>of course one should qoveioh ittim, learning is a very important
> mitzvoh -- but to the exclusion of other activities, even the other
> 612, or the notion that nothing else has intrinsic value? no.

<<So I can spend my entire day (and night) reading novels as long as I
fix half an hour or an hour per day to learn? Or as long as I say Shma
morning and night? Is that really what HKB"H wants from us?>>

a straw man not found in the original remark. q'vias ittim is a personal
matter of life balance that will vary with individuals but there is no
suggestion in it -- none -- that 24/7 is the ultimate desideratum. But
the issue under discussion is whether there is legitimate precedent
which accepted that it doesn't require 24/7. the alternative perspectives
may prefer going out and performing a mitzvoh to learning about it, may
view work as legitimated even without a parnossoh vector, some may even
discern intrinsic value in humanistic studies and not klap al chait for
any time spent in their realization.

as for what I think HQBH wants, I should really leave that to those
with a more direct two way line of communication into His Thinking such
as yerushalmi pashkivil authors, pat roberstson, and editors of yated
neeman, but I can't help thinking that. despite being only vaibishe
toiroh, Michoh 6:8 might not be a bad place to glean clues. umoh hashem
doreish miim'khoh ki im asos mishpot v'ahavas chesed v'hatzneioh lekhes
im elokechoh. not the slightest angst that all that chesed mongering and
hatzneoh lechesing might take time off from continuous torah study --
though perhaps you could chazer mishnayos by heart while on the move.

Mechy Frankel michael.frankel@osd.mil mfrankel@empc.org
michaeljfrankel@hotmail.com

I was at a chasuna on Sunday and, after the chupah, led a mincha minyan
that had a "heicha kedusha" - no chazaras hashatz. Later, I had the
opportunity to sit across from R' Dovid Cohen and asked him the following
(I am trying to be careful to use the exact language that I and he used):

"[Since, according to R' Yaakov Kaminetzky, the reason that some yeshivos
do not have a chazaras hashatz for mincha is because the takanah of
chazaras hashatz only applied to a beis k'neses - and not a beis medrash,]
does it make sense to say that, with respect to an informal minyan of ten
men (which I had just led), one did not need a chazaras hashatz, because
the takanah never applied to such a minyan? Is this a good sevarah?"

RDC answered me: "Yes, I think that is a good sevarah. Anyway, the whole
idea of davening at a chasunah is a sha'as hadchak, what with the all
of the distractions...."

He went on to mention that this is one reason why chassidic shuls call
themselves "beis medrash....." as opposed to "beis keneses..." because
this way they don't have to make kiddush on Friday night, as this takanah
was also instituted only for a "beis keneses" and not a "bais medrash."

Just to clarify, RDC never actually said that it was OK to have a heicha
kedusha, either bdi'eved or l'chatchilah; all he said was that I was
saying a good sevarah (but, OTOH, he knew that I was asking halacha
l'ma'aseh, as I told him I just did it and I was asking whether it OK
for me to skip chazaras hashatz in such a situation).

KT
Aryeh

On Sun, Apr 18, 2004 at 01:47:16AM -0400, Gershon Dubin wrote:
: <<How does one know which picture on the wall represents what's really
: going on live within the qodesh haqadashim.>>

: Even if it didn't "update" like a webcam, it still showed chiba, as above.

Would a sign posted by some kohanim that reads "G-d Loves You" show
Hashem's chibah? Mah beinaihu?

: <<Note that these demonstations are aimed at ma'aminim. Cynics would
: simply say they snuck in new loaves.>>

: Are you so sure there were cynics then?  Who were oleh regel?

Yeshaiah and Yirmiyahu seem to write of people who tried to buy off
their consciences with cows. Besides, there are plenty of cynics today
who follow the O lifestyle -- why wouldn't things be different then?

My point would stand either way, though. It's not about proof, because
religion isn't about proof.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 14th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        2 weeks in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Malchus sheb'Gevurah: How does judgment reveal
Fax: (413) 403-9905                            G-d?

On Sun, Apr 18, 2004 at 12:17:27PM -0400, David Riceman wrote:
: By making their two qualifications RMB and RGS concede PMS's point.
: The Rambam's Ikkarim, as written, contain neither qualification (though
: the Rambam elsewhere contains both, see, e.g. PHM Hullin 1:1, H. Mamrim
: 3:3).

PMS's point is that there is no form in which the ikkarim define the
limits of O. In fact, we know from his posts here that if he'd have
his drothers, O would include any hashkafah that is consistant with
observance.
...
: As an exercise, I wonder if RMB or RGS would write a modified Ikkar
: #2 strict enough to satisfy the Rambam but lenient enough to include
: mekubbalim. I suspect it can't be done, which would go some way to
: disproving their claim.

Mequbalim disagree. They believe the sefiros, or "Bo'achem Leshalom" in
Shalom Aleichem, do not defy the ikkarim. It would help to know what the
sefiros are before assuming they are a guf or structure to the A-lmighty.

The Kuzari 4:25, for example, speaks about them being stages in beri'ah
through mispar, sapar and seifer. (Be'eser ma'amaros.) The Ramchal
similarly.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 14th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        2 weeks in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Malchus sheb'Gevurah: How does judgment reveal
Fax: (413) 403-9905                            G-d?

On Sun, Apr 18, 2004 at 05:58:19PM -0400, Michael Frankel wrote:
: But it was rejected by an even larger Chasidic community -- in an
: earlier iteration I quoted R. levi Yitzchoq's take (Bais Halevi,
: Ovos) as quite different from that of his contemporary R. Chaim V --
: on v'hogisoh boh yomom voloiloh. It was also rejected by TIDE german
: and western societies. It was even rejected by yeshivish litvaks who
: gave formal musar learning...

I would have said differently. They didn't reject as much as chose not
to accept RCV's chiddush.

(IOW, RCV was the mechadeish, not they by rejecting "talmud Torah
keneged kulam.)

Nefesh haChaim cheileq 4 invented a new derekh, that which we call
"yeshivish". It's the maqor for a lifestyle of placing limud ahead of
everything else. Thus the yeshiva-centered community. No one else accepted
this mahalakh, otherwise multiple forms of frumkeit would not exist today.

On Mon, Apr 19, 2004 at 09:06:37AM +0300, Carl and Adina Sherer wrote:
: Why do you say it was rejected? I didn't say that there's anything 
: wrong with working. I said that when you're not working, you should 
: be learning. Do you think RSRH went to circuses (R"L) when he wasn't 
: taking care of his community? 

Actually, RSRH recommends travel. He waxes on about his trips to the
Alps.

...
: Learning musar isn't learning? 

No. Vehara'ayah: according to ba'alei mussar, women are mechuyavos in
mussar learning.

Perhaps one could make a chiluq between learning Toras mussar and actual
mussar learning. Making the distinction between "about it" (which is
Torah) and "it" (which belongs in Hil' Dei'os and Hil' Teshuvah). Learning
Hil Dei'os in the Yad is talmud Torah. Acting on what's learnt is not.

Those who followed tenu'as hamussar were doing both.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 14th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        2 weeks in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Malchus sheb'Gevurah: How does judgment reveal
Fax: (413) 403-9905                            G-d?

On Mon, Apr 19, 2004 at 09:06:37AM +0300, Carl and Adina Sherer wrote:
: I don't recall Rav Moshe referring to AZ in that tshuva, and there's 
: a huge dispute among the poskim whether today's Christians are ovdei 
: AZ.

The machloqes rishonim is whether Christianity (obviously not today's --
Tosafos and the Rambam predate the Protestant Reformation by a good deal)
is AZ ledinei 7 mitzvos benei Noach.

However, I thought that true AZ, as in really believing that stuff enough
to qualify as an oveid, was only possible in EY, and possibly only before
galus haShechinah.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 14th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        2 weeks in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Malchus sheb'Gevurah: How does judgment reveal
Fax: (413) 403-9905                            G-d?

In a message dated 4/20/2004 9:02:01 PM EDT, AStein@wtplaw.com writes:
>                                                ... Later, I had the
> opportunity to sit across from R' Dovid Cohen and asked him the following
> (I am trying to be careful to use the exact language that I and he used):

> "[Since, according to R' Yaakov Kaminetzky, the reason that some yeshivos
> do not have a chazaras hashatz for mincha is because the takanah of
> chazaras hashatz only applied to a beis k'neses - and not a beis medrash,]
> does it make sense to say that, with respect to an informal minyan of ten
> men (which I had just led), one did not need a chazaras hashatz, because
> the takanah never applied to such a minyan? Is this a good sevarah?"

What is the source of this restriction of the takkana? Does it apply to
shacharit as well? Does anyone hold of it anywhere else than in a Yeshiva?

> RDC answered me: "Yes, I think that is a good sevarah. Anyway, the whole
> idea of davening at a chasunah is a sha'as hadchak, what with the all
> of the distractions...."

and at midday work minyanim? Hmmm-I thought that one of the reasons
for the schar for mincha was doing it in the middle of a distracting day

> He went on to mention that this is one reason why chassidic shuls call
> themselves "beis medrash....." as opposed to "beis keneses..." because
> this way they don't have to make kiddush on Friday night, as this takanah
> was also instituted only for a "beis keneses" and not a "bais medrash."

> Just to clarify, RDC never actually said that it was OK to have a heicha
> kedusha, either bdi'eved or l'chatchilah; all he said was that I was
> saying a good sevarah (but, OTOH, he knew that I was asking halacha
> l'ma'aseh, as I told him I just did it and I was asking whether it OK
> for me to skip chazaras hashatz in such a situation).

I've always found it ironic that the speakers at a wedding praise hkb"h
for all his chesed but can't find the 5 minutes for tfillat hatzibbur
to the same HKB"H

KT
Joel Rich

>> saw notice that R. Wosner paskened that one cannot daven in a group in
>> a plane when it is dangerous or interferes with the crew. Recommends
>> either small groups or davening in one's seat

> meaning no tfilla btibbur I assume. Interesting shikul hadaas - how much
> "interfering" outweighs benefit of tfilla btibbur and hatzibbur?

If 10 people are near each other - could they do tefilla betzibur -
including Shoyneh Esre - sitting?

SBA

RDR:
> digression #2. The PHM Hullin 1:1 also contains the claim that in
> the Maghreb they executed many people for heresy. Given the Rambam's
> skepticism about post-Biblical miracles I wonder how the Hazon Ish dealt
> with

RDR2
> Try Kafih's translation (Hebrew only) p. 117 column 2 "ukvar naasah mizeh
> halacha l'maaseh baansashim rabim bchol eretz hamaarav."  I see, however,
> that it's Hullin 1:2 and not 1:1.

I tried.  There it says (in the standard edition, I don't have a Kafih
edition) that cherem and malkus were administered. A far cry from execution.

kol tuv, Shlomo Goldstein

From: "S Goldstein" <goldstin@netvision.net.il>
> I tried.  There it says (in the standard edition, I don't have a Kafih
> edition) that cherem and malkus were administered. A far cry from
> execution.

You need to get Kafih's translation. It's quite explicit. See especially
note 32, where he says that the standard translation deleted the term
"execute".

DR

If you ever stop to think about it, there are two different forms of
counting. Say there is a heap of oranges on the table and you want to
know the quantity. You pick up the first and say, 'one'; the second and
say, 'two'; until you arrive at a final number. Let us call this discrete
counting. However, if you are planning a car journey and want to count the
mileage, you set the trip odometer at nought. When it registers the cipher
'1', you are aware that you have already travelled one mile. A little
later you know that you have travelled between one and two miles. This
non-discrete counting is really a form of measurement.

To which category does Sefiras Ho'Omer belong? Since we are marking the
passing of days and weeks it should logically be thought of as belonging
to the second category. Why then do we start counting at number one?

The Sefer Hachinuch (273/307) and others pose another difficulty as
follows. Since the Sefirah signifies the spiritual ascent from the
defilement of Mitzrayim to Kabbolos Hatorah, why does the Torah delay
the start of the counting until the second day of Pesach? The answer
given by the Chinuch, namely that we are too busy with other important
Mitzvos on the first day of Pesach, does, I humbly suggest, leave the
door open for additional suggestions.

I would like to present a novel idea, which is only put forward as a
proposed Peshuto shel Mikro without any halachic implications. (See
e.g. Rashbam, Bereshis 37:2). My thesis is that the above two problems
cancel each other out! Let me explain.

The Torah really want us to start counting for the 15th Nisan, the first
day of Pesach. But it is nonsensical to count and say, "Today is nil days
of the Omer". We are therefore instructed to start counting from the
beginning of the second day of Pesach. We then say "Hayom Yom Echod",
meaning that one day has passed. We continue in this manner until we
reach the count of forty-nine, at which point seven complete week have
elapsed since the beginning of Pesach. Yet, the Torah want us to wait
one more day before celebrating Shevuos in order to complete fifty days.

Bearing all this in mind gives us a new insight into the Pesukim in
Emor (Vayikro 23: 15 &16). "Usfartem Lochem Memochras Hashabbos Meyom
Heviachem es Omer Hatnufoh, Sheva Shabbosois Temimos Tihyenoh. Ad
Memochras Hashabbos Hashvi'is Tisperu Chamishim Yom ..". "And you shall
count for yourselves from the morrow after the day of rest, from the
day that you brought the sheaf of the waving, seven weeks shall there
be complete. Until the morrow after the seventh week you shall count
fifty days ..."

Does the Torah want us to count forty-nine days or fifty? What does
Temimos (complete) mean? Rashi brings the interpretation of Chazal as
well as his own Peshat, one that involves a word inversion.

My paraphrase is that the verbal count is one of forty-nine days. It
is from the 16th of Nisan and is Temimoh, i.e. it denotes completed
days. However, the virtual count is one of fifty days, from Yetzias
Mitzroyim to Shevuos. The two Pesukim complement each other.

ER

From: perzvi@juno.com
> Is the reason Bobov has a sign for different minyanim is so that
> bochurim can put on tefillin or is it that l'chatchila one shouldn't
> have tefillin-wearers and non-tefillin wearers davenning together in
> the same minyan (without a mechitza or something similar).

In a place with a minhag not to put on tefillin - there may be a shaaloh
of 'lo sisgodedu'.

SBA

In terms of the halachic dateline one of the main shitot is that it is 
90 degrees east of Jerusalem. This splits into 2 shitot one taking 90 
degrees literally (Brisker Rav) and one that takes it to be the end of 
the Asian continent (CI).

The Brisker Rav's shita is straightforward but leaves one with an 
uncomfortable feeling when a town can be on two sides of the dateline 
and so wierd questions arise about crossing town on shabbat.

I actually understand less the CI shita though it seems more logical.
As a review Jerusalem is about 35 degrees east of Greenwich and so
the dateline is approximately 125 degrees east if G.
However, the coast of Asia is far from a straight line.
note that 15 degrees = 1 hour difference in time

Some examples are
Vietnam = 110 degrees
Shangahi = 120 degrees
Vladislok = 130 degrees
Bering Straits = 170 degrees west! of G (i.e. 190 degrees east)

so if we define the halachic dateline as the zigzag of the coast it 
crosses some 80 degrees or over 5 time zones!

In Australia the 125 parallel crosses over the desert with only Perth 
being on the Israeli side of the dateline. Most of the continent is on 
the other side with Melbourne being about 150 degrees East of G.
It is not clear to me whether we go by the majority of the land or 
people which puts Australia on the other side of the dateline (ie 
shabbat is not saturday) or do we say that if a small portion is on 
the Israeli side it is enough. As others have pointed out how about 
islands off of Australia?

In seems to me that the only shitah that really makes sense equates 
Shabbat with the local Saturday. In practice this is what is done.
For whatever reasons some charedim avoid Japan and Hawaii because of a 
safek with sahabbat but no one seems to avoid Australia though it has 
many of the same problems.

In addition if one measures distance by degrees on the globe it makes 
little sense if one is near the poles where each degree is only a 
small physical distance.
The only way out is to declare that G-d arranged that Jews would not 
populate areas that are problematical (except for Australia)

kol tuv
 -- 
Prof. Eli Turkel,  turkel@post.tau.ac.il on 4/21/2004
Department of Mathematics, Tel Aviv University

> If one is a "Chacham shehigia lehoraah", then he is entitled and indeed
> obligated to research
< snip >
> of course nobody may
> pick and chose arbitrarily from amongst the various opinions of
> the poskim.

if he takes upon himself to decide, he must, before he can form his own
opinion, study them all and their arguments and sources -- as far as they
touch the issue. it is not necessary to be a certified shohhet&bodek in
order to decide when to stop eating hhamets on nisan 14th.

/dw

From: JoshHoff@aol.com
> R. Avraham Danzig wrote a kitzur of Sefer Charedim,entitled Matzeves
> Moshe, so it does not seem likely that he would on principle have said
> that he is against the writing of kitzurim

The above posting is rather puzzling.

Matzeves Moshe, an appendix to the Chochmas Odom, is summary of the
Dinim of Aveilus, dedicated to the memory of the author's son who died
at a tender age.

I don't seen any connection to Sefer Charedim.

ER

In a message dated 4/20/04 9:01:20 PM EDT, jcoh003@ec.auckland.ac.nz writes:
> For your information in New Zealand we do rely on that heter. It strikes
> me that denying it's validity is challenging the authority of chazal,
> to which many respond - it's kosher, sure, but I'm more of a tzaddik if
> I refrain from eating it. Is this even a valid stance?

See Pischei Tshuvah end of Y"D 116, and Darkei Tshuvah Ois 109. as this
is an issue that has came up many times I am faxing copy of above
refrences. Please point to: <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/machmir.pdf>

Kol Tuv,
Yitzchok Zirkind

In a message dated 4/20/04 8:59:31 PM EDT, jcoh003@ec.auckland.ac.nz writes:
> I initially understood the position of the Tosefot and the Rama on this
> question refereed to the issur of business with them. The conclusion
> being that it is permissible because there is no michsol lifne iver given
> that bne no'ach are not covered by the issur of shituf in sh'vu'ot.
> Meaning that although it is still AZ, and for a Jew to make a sh'vu'a
> b'shem hashem b'shituf with AZ (ch'v) would be assur, but for a non-Jew
> a sh'vu'a b'shem hashem and AZ (ch'v) would be mutar. And in fact one
> finds no mention of issur shittuf bishvu'ot in Hilchot Melachim, whereas
> in Hilchot Sh'vu'ot Rambam clearly states this issur.

See Encyclopedia Talmudis Erech Ben Noach (Vol. 3 pg. 350). As this
came up many times I am faxing copy of above refrence. Please point to:
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/etBenNoach.pdf>

Kol Tuv,
Yitzchok Zirkind

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