Avodah Mailing List

Volume 12 : Number 109

Wednesday, March 3 2004

• Re: Pidyon Haben
• Re: Learning as much as possible
• Delaying a Seudas Bris until Sunday
• Re: FW: Matanot La'evyonim to be distributed in EY
• RE: FW: Matanot La'evyonim to be distributed in EY
• RE: FW: Matanot La'evyonim to be distributed in EY
• RE: FW: Matanot La'evyonim to be distributed in EY
• RE: FW: Matanot La'evyonim to be distributed in EY
• FW: FW: Matanot La'evyonim to be distributed in EY
• RE: FW: Matanot La'evyonim to be distributed in EY
• RE: FW: Matanot La'evyonim to be distributed in EY
• RE: FW: Matanot La'evyonim to be distributed in EY
• RE: FW: Matanot La'evyonim to be distributed in EY

On 1 Mar 2004 at 0:02, Gershon Dubin wrote:
> Anyone know why pidyon haben is the exception to the rule of zerizim
> makdimim?

Why do you call it an exception? The only place that the Shulchan 
Aruch says zrizin makdimim is by a bris. 

-- Carl

Catching up.... 

On 19 Feb 2004 at 12:37, Micha Berger wrote:
> Are you saying that other mitzvos that have no minimal chiyuv should
> only be done when one can't learn? For example, if I can learn every
> evening, I shouldn't the volunteer for tomchei shabbos deliveries?

Not unless you can change the Tomchei Shabbos deliveries to a time 
when you don't have a regular seder. Or if there is no one else to do 
them. 

The Gemara tells us about certain things that "m'vatlin Talmud Torah" 
in order to do them (kriyas megillah, halvoyas ha'meis where there is 
no one else...). Otherwise it seems to me that you should not be 
m'vateil from learning to do other mitzvos. If you're not going to be 
learning (or you're going to be m'vateil from your learning time 
anyway), that's a different story, but I'm talking about someone 
(like you!) who's a big enough masmid not to be m'vateil!

> I mean that as a question. I would think one needs to strive for
> well-roundedness. Even if that formula gives more priority to Torah
> than other mitzvos, I didn't think it would mean that other mitzvos
> are on minimal priority, run only when the CPU is available.

I think that depends on the person. And to some extent, it depends on 
the stage in his life. Certainly there's a lot less grounds for a 
bochur to be m'vateil sdorim to do other mitzvos than there is for a 
married man who m'meila has other obligations to his family.

-- Carl

mailto:cmsherer@fandz.com      mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On Areivim, someone posted an article about some people making a bris
on Sunday for various convenience reasons. (Obviously, these ideas would
not be relevant in Israel.)

I wondered why we don't find cases where people make the actual bris
milah on the eighth day, and then postpone the seudah to the following
Sunday. There certainly seems to be ample precedent by the way we schedule
the *seudah* on Sunday for a Bar Mitzvah or Siyum.

I'm now moving this conversation to Avodah, because I'm going to start
citing sources.

For example, I wrote <<< of all the times I've attended a Siyum, I don't
think I ever got the feeling that the person was actually completing his
learning of the masechta then and there. Rather it has always seemed to
me that he had actually completed his learning earlier, and was simply
reviewing it now for the sake of the hadran and the seudah.>>>

R' Carl Sherer responded <<< De facto that is probably correct, but a
siyum is not dependent on a calendar event.>>>

I see that I didn't explain my point well. A Siyum does not depend on the
calendar, and neither does a Bris. Both are Mitzvos which are celebrated
with a Seudas Mitzva, and so shouldn't both the Mitzvah and the Seudah
be on the same day?

A person learns the last few lines of the masechta, does the Rashis and
whatever other perushim he's learning, researches a couple of points that
were unclear, and resolves them. *That* is when he gets the feeling of
completion. *That* is when he has his simcha. And *that* is when he ought
to say his hadran and make a seudah to thank HaShem for this opportunity.

But what usually happens is that he spends the next few days writing and
rehearsing a Dvar Torah about that final portion, and finally makes his
Siyum and Seudah a while later. My question is why we can't act similarly
after a bris.

As regards a Bar Mitzvah, R' Carl's main point was that <<< there's no
chiyuv to have a seudah for a Bar Mitzva.>>>

Well, I'll admit that MB 225:6 does not use the word "chiyuv", and merely
calls it a "mitzvah". But on the other hand, he says that this mitzvah is
just as big as the mitzvah of making a seudah when his son gets married,
and that's pretty high up there.

As far as whether or not there's a "chiyuv" to have a seudah for a Bris
Milah, the Mechaber (YD 265:12) simply says "nohagim", while the Gra (#47)
does quote the Chachamim as saying that a Seudas Bris Milah is a chiyuv.

Akiva Miller

On 2 Mar 2004 at 9:51, Stein, Aryeh wrote:
> Matanos L'evyonim must be given on the day that we celebrate Purim, 

[snip]

> (I personally deliver matanos l'evyonim on Purim day in Baltimore; if
> anyone wants to make sure that his/her matanos l'evyonim is
> distributed on Purim day (EST), I will be happy to accept $$$.)

Doesn't it also have to be GIVEN on Purim day and not just distributed
on Purim day?

-- Carl

mailto:cmsherer@fandz.com      mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

RCS wrote:
> Doesn't it also have to be GIVEN on Purim day and not just
> distributed on Purim day?

Sure, but a person can make someone else a shliach to do the giving, no?
It is on the receiving end that the problems arise.

KT
Aryeh

On 3 Mar 2004 at 8:31, Stein, Aryeh wrote:
> Sure, but a person can make someone else a shliach to do the giving,
> no?  It is on the receiving end that the problems arise.

That's exactly what I was asking. Don't I have to *appoint* the 
Shaliach on Purim itself? Otherwise, I'm being m'kayeim giving 
tzedaka before Purim and not on Purim itself (which is very nice, but 
doesn't strike me as fulfilling the chiyuv of matanos la'evyonim 
davka on Purim). 

See Biur Halacha 694:1 s"v Lishnei Aniyim who implies that although 
the minhag is to give before Purim, you are only yotzei the mitzva by 
giving to aniyim on Purim. 

-- Carl

mailto:cmsherer@fandz.com      mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

RCS wrote: 
> .....Don't I have to *appoint* the Shaliach on Purim itself? Otherwise,
> I'm being m'kayeim giving tzedaka before Purim and not on Purim itself
> (which is very nice, but doesn't strike me as fulfilling the chiyuv of
> matanos la'evyonim davka on Purim).

Of course the giving to the evyonim must be on Purim, but why should
the appointment of the shliach have to be on Purim???

I assume that whenever people give money to charity organizations before
Purim (money that is intended to be distributed on Purim day), they are
making the organization their shliach to give the money on Purim day -
and the money remains the property of the original giver until it is
actually handed to the evyon.

Does there have to be some kind of kinyan or official designation between
the person and the organization for the shlichus to take effect? I don't
think so.

Does the fact that a person not have the shlichus in mind when they gave
the money m'akev? I don't think so.

Since most people already rely on shlichus to fulfull the mitzvah (since
few people actually give money directly to an evyon on Purim day, but
instead rely on Tomchei Shabbos type of organizations), I assumed that
this shlichus also works WRT to money given to these organizations prior
to Purim day.

KT
Aryeh

On 3 Mar 2004 at 9:46, Stein, Aryeh wrote:
> Of course the giving to the evyonim must be on Purim, but why should
> the appointment of the shliach have to be on Purim???

Because if it's not, it's no different than any other kind of tzedaka. Can
I appoint a shaliach on Pesach to give Matanos la'Evyonim next Purim? How
is that m'kayeim my mitzva on Purim? Keep in mind that at least one
of the teirutzim for why we say She'he'cheyanu on the Megillah in the
morning is that it goes for the other mitzvos of the day - including
matanos la'evyonim.

> I assume that whenever people give money to charity organizations
> before Purim (money that is intended to be distributed on Purim day),
> they are making the organization their shliach to give the money on
> Purim day - 

Ain hachi nami. But the Biur Halacha implies that you're not m'kayeim 
the mitzva like that (at least that's how I read him). See also MB 
695:22.

The Be'er Heiteiv 695:7 says "nistapakti". 

and the money remains the property of the original giver
> until it is actually handed to the evyon.

Source? Does this mean that if the shaliach loses it he has no 
achrayus? If so, are you yotzei the mitzva, or do you have to replace 
the money? 

> Does there have to be some kind of kinyan or official designation
> between the person and the organization for the shlichus to take
> effect?  I don't think so.

I doubt it.

> Does the fact that a person not have the shlichus in mind when they
> gave the money m'akev?  I don't think so.

When who gave the money? When the person gave the money to the 
shaliach or when the shaliach gave the money to the evyonim? 

> Since most people already rely on shlichus to fulfull the mitzvah
> (since few people actually give money directly to an evyon on Purim
> day, but instead rely on Tomchei Shabbos type of organizations), I
> assumed that this shlichus also works WRT to money given to these
> organizations prior to Purim day.

I'm not sure it does. In our neighborhood, much of the collection is 
done in the morning after Megilla, and it is distributed on Purim 
day.

-- Carl

RCS: 
> Because if it's not, it's no different than any other kind of
> tzedaka. Can I appoint a shaliach on Pesach to give Matanos la'Evyonim
> next Purim?

Why not? Why is this different than any other mitzva (aside from those
mitzvas haguf, like shofar, lulav, etc, that shlichus does not help)?

RCS:  
> How is that m'kayeim my mitzva on Purim? Keep in mind that at least
> one of the teirutzim for why we say She'he'cheyanu on the Megillah in
> the morning is that it goes for the other mitzvos of the day - including
> matanos la'evyonim.

Right, and a person can be mekayem the mitzva of matanos la'evyonim on
Purim day - through a shliach. Why should it make a difference when the
shliach was appointed or when the money was given to the shliach?

Old me:
> I assume that whenever people give money to charity organizations
> before Purim (money that is intended to be distributed on Purim day), 
> they are making the organization their shliach to give the money on 
> Purim day -

RCS: 
> Ain hachi nami. But the Biur Halacha implies that you're not m'kayeim
> the mitzva like that (at least that's how I read him). See also MB 695:22.
> The Be'er Heiteiv 695:7 says "nistapakti".

I don't have a MB with me right now, but IIRC, the Biur Halacha doesn't
preclude me from making someone a shliach prior to Purim to give money
to evyonim on Purim day (money that I gave to the shliach prior to Purim).

Old me:
>and the money remains the property of the original giver
> until it is actually handed to the evyon.

RCS:
> Source? Does this mean that if the shaliach loses it he has no
> achrayus? If so, are you yotzei the mitzva, or do you have to replace
> the money?

I don't have a source. If Tomchei Shabbos loses the money that I gave
to them, I don't think Tomchei Shabbos has achrayus. This would also
mean that I was not yotzei the mitzva with that money that I gave the
organization(which is why it is a good idea to give matanos l'evyoim
through more than one organization.)

Old me:
> Does the fact that a person not have the shlichus in mind when they
> gave the money m'akev?  I don't think so.

RCS:
> When who gave the money? When the person gave the money to the
> shaliach or when the shaliach gave the money to the evyonim? 

When the person gave the money to the shliach.

Old me:
> Since most people already rely on shlichus to fulfull the mitzvah 
> (since few people actually give money directly to an evyon on Purim 
> day, but instead rely on Tomchei Shabbos type of organizations), I 
> assumed that this shlichus also works WRT to money given to these 
> organizations prior to Purim day.

RCS:
> I'm not sure it does. In our neighborhood, much of the collection is
> done in the morning after Megilla, and it is distributed on Purim day.

New me:

I still don't know why, once we agree that most people are fulfilling
the mitzva through shlichus, that this shlichus wouldn't also work WRT
to money given to the shliach before Purim. I will, b"n, look up the
MB and BH later.

KT
Aryeh

On 3 Mar 2004 at 10:32, Stein, Aryeh wrote:
> RCS:
>> Because if it's not, it's no different than any other kind of 
>> tzedaka. Can I appoint a shaliach on Pesach to give Matanos 
>> la'Evyonim next Purim?

> Why not?  Why is this different than any other mitzva (aside from
> those mitzvas haguf, like shofar, lulav, etc, that shlichus does not
> help)?

It's exactly like those mitzvos because it's time-dependent. But for
"af hein hayu b'oso ha'neis," women would be patur. The idea is to give
matanos la'evyonim ON PURIM. If you give them in advance, that's just
the regular mitzva of tzedaka. (Agav, can you use ma'aser ksafim money
for it? I recall there being a diyun in the poskim, and while I don't
recall exactly where, I think the answer is no).

> RCS:  
>>>> How is that m'kayeim my mitzva on Purim? Keep 
> in mind that at least one of the teirutzim for why we say 
> She'he'cheyanu on the Megillah in the morning is that it goes for the
> other mitzvos of the day - including matanos la'evyonim.>>>

> New me:
> Right, and a person can be mekayem the mitzva of matanos la'evyonim on
> Purim day - through a shliach.  Why should it make a difference when
> the shliach was appointed or when the money was given to the shliach?

Because the mitzva is to appoint the shaliach (and ain hachi nami it can
be done through a shaliach) on that day. Would you allow me to appoint
a shaliach in advance to do Mishloach Manos for me on Purim? If not,
what's the difference?

...
> I don't have a MB with me right now, but IIRC, the Biur Halacha
> doesn't preclude me from making someone a shliach prior to Purim to
> give money to evyonim on Purim day (money that I gave to the shliach
> prior to Purim).

He says that people do it, but he implies that they're not yotzei that
way. "v'Lo yitein kodem Purim dilma achlei l'hu kodem Purim u'minhag
ha'olam litein kodem Purim af d'matanos la'evyonim mitzvaso davka b'yom
Purim tzarich lomar d'al korchacha NOSEIN SHTEI MATANOS LA'EVYONIM
GAM B'YOM PURIM V'GAM YESH HARBEI ANIYIM HA'CHOZRIM AL HA'PSOCHIM
B'PURIM." (emphasis mine).

> Old me:
>>> Does the fact that a person not have the shlichus in mind when they
>>> gave the money m'akev?  I don't think so.

> RCS:
>> When who gave the money? When the person gave the money to the 
>> shaliach or when the shaliach gave the money to the evyonim? 

> When the person gave the money to the shliach.

Then how are you appointing a shaliach? 

-- Carl

RCS:
> The idea is to give matanos la'evyonim ON PURIM. If you give them in
> advance, that's just the regular mitzva of tzedaka.

I agree - one must give matanos la'evyonim on Purim. I don't know why
one should not be able to appoint a shliach before Purim to give my
money to an evyon on Purim day.

RCS: 
> (Agav, can you use ma'aser ksafim money for it? I recall there being
> a diyun in the poskim, and while I don't recall exactly where, I think
> the answer is no).

I think you are correct.

Old me:
> ....a person can be mekayem the mitzva of matanos la'evyonim on 
> Purim day - through a shliach.  Why should it make a difference when 
> the shliach was appointed or when the money was given to the shliach?

RCS:
> Because the mitzva is to appoint the shaliach (and ain hachi nami it
> can be done through a shaliach) on that day. 

Where do you see that the mitzva is to appoint the shaliach on that day?

RCS:
> Would you allow me to appoint a shaliach in advance to do Mishloach
> Manos for me on Purim?

Sure, why not?!? Why can't I give my shaliach an apple and a can of
soda today and ask him to deliver it to a friend of mine on Purim day?

RCS:
> If not, what's the difference? 

I agree that there is no difference between mishloach manos and matanos
la'evyonim. I also assert that I can appoint a shaliach to perform those
mitzvos for me on Purim - and I can appoint the shaliach prior to Purim.

> New me:
> I don't have a MB with me right now, but IIRC, the Biur Halacha 
> doesn't preclude me from making someone a shliach prior to Purim to 
> give money to evyonim on Purim day (money that I gave to the shliach 
> prior to Purim).

RCS:
> He says that people do it, but he implies that they're not yotzei
> that way. "v'Lo yitein kodem Purim dilma achlei l'hu kodem Purim u'minhag
> ha'olam litein kodem Purim af d'matanos la'evyonim mitzvaso davka b'yom
> Purim tzarich lomar d'al korchacha NOSEIN SHTEI MATANOS LA'EVYONIM
> GAM B'YOM PURIM V'GAM YESH HARBEI ANIYIM HA'CHOZRIM AL HA'PSOCHIM
> B'PURIM." (emphasis mine).

This Biur Halacha has absolutely nothing to do with our discussion.
The BH is referring to my giving a dollar to an evyon before Purim day.
The BH is *not* referring to our case where I am giving a dollar to the
evyon on Purim day, albeit through a shaliach. The reason that we don't
give matanos l'evyonim before Purim, according to the BH is because
"dilma achlei l'hu kodem Purim." This chashash is not applicable when I
give money (before Purim) to an organization to distribute (on Purim),
as the ani doesn't get the money until Purim day.

Old me:
> Does the fact that a person not have the shlichus in mind when [he
> gave the money to the shliach] m'akev? I don't think so.

RCS:
> Then how are you appointing a shaliach? 

I think we assume that a person's stam daas is that it is working through
shlichus; IOW, there is no specific requirement that the person have
the shlichus in mind or that he makes a declaration to that effect.

(There are other situations where a person does not have to something
specifically in mind, but instead we presume that his intention is the
correct one. For example, if one is still davening shemona esrei and
he wants to be yotzei kedusha through shomea k'oneh, he can listen the
shaliach tzibbur. I think there is a presumption that every shaliach
tzibbur has in mind to be motzei other people. While I admit there
are distinctions between these two cases, I think that when a person
gives money, before Purim, to an organization, for the organization to
distribute to evyonim on Purim day, the person's "staam das" is to do
the mitzva the right way, i.e., by making the organization his shaliach.)

Once we are talking about this, I should add that RSZA was of the opinion
that mishloach manos was best performed *without* sh'lichus, because of
"mitzva bo yoser m'b'shlucho." The fact that the megila uses the word
"send" does not necessarily mean that there must be an shaliach. However,
RSZA would also send at least one mishloach manos through a shaliach to
be yotzei that shita.

One last related point about matanos l'evyonim: RSZA defines "evyon/ani"
as a person who doesn't have enough money for the basic necessities.

Q - what about an ani that, earlier that day, has received enough $$$
for these basic necessities - does he lose the status of "evyon/ani"
(until that money runs out?
A - [RSZA] No, he is still in the category of an evyon/ani, and one can
be mekayem the mitzva of matanos l'evyonim by giving to him.

KT
Aryeh

On 3 Mar 2004 at 11:41, Stein, Aryeh wrote:

> RCS: 
> >>>(Agav, can you use ma'aser ksafim 
> money for it? I recall there being a diyun in the poskim, and while I
> don't recall exactly where, I think the answer is no). 

> Me:
> I think you are correct.

Which means that Matanos la'Evyonim has to be different than stam 
tzedaka money (something which would also appear to be the case from 
SA OH 694:2. If you're designating a shaliach way before Purim, how 
do you ensure that the money doesn't get mixed up with other tzedaka 
money? 

> Old me:
> > ....a person can be mekayem the mitzva of matanos la'evyonim on
> > Purim day - through a shliach.  Why should it make a difference when
> > the shliach was appointed or when the money was given to the
> > shliach?

> RCS:
> >>>Because the mitzva is to appoint the shaliach (and ain hachi nami
> >>>it 
> can be done through a shaliach) on that day. 

> Me:
> Where do you see that the mitzva is to appoint the shaliach on that
> day?

In the Biur Halacha that I quoted. 

> RCS:

> >>>Would you allow me to appoint a shaliach in advance to do Mishloach
> >>>Manos for me on Purim? 

> Me:
> Sure, why not?!?  Why can't I give my shaliach an apple and a can of
> soda today and ask him to deliver it to a friend of mine on Purim day?

You can. But are you m'kayeim the mitzva like that? The mitzva is to 
do it on Purim. You make a bracha on it on Purim when you read the 
megillah in the morning. If you've already designated a shaliach to 
take care of the entire mitzva for you, on what are you making (or 
hearing) a bracha on Purim morning? 

> RCS:
> >>>He says that people do it, but he implies that they're not yotzei 
> that way. "v'Lo yitein kodem Purim dilma achlei l'hu kodem Purim
> u'minhag ha'olam litein kodem Purim af d'matanos la'evyonim mitzvaso
> davka b'yom Purim tzarich lomar d'al korchacha NOSEIN SHTEI MATANOS
> LA'EVYONIM GAM B'YOM PURIM V'GAM YESH HARBEI ANIYIM HA'CHOZRIM AL
> HA'PSOCHIM B'PURIM." (emphasis mine). 

> Me:
> This Biur Halacha has absolutely nothing to do with our discussion. 
> The BH is referring to my giving a dollar to an evyon before Purim
> day.  The BH is *not* referring to our case where I am giving a dollar
> to the evyon on Purim day, albeit through a shaliach.  The reason that
> we don't give matanos l'evyonim before Purim, according to the BH is
> because "dilma achlei l'hu kodem Purim."  This chashash is not
> applicable when I give money (before Purim) to an organization to
> distribute (on Purim), as the ani doesn't get the money until Purim
> day.

But he's saying that (a) you can't be yotzei with giving money  to 
the evyon before Purim dilma achlei and (b) that the minhag is to 
designate a shaliach in advance but you can't be yotzei that way 
either and therefore (c) you'd better find an evyon on Purim day to 
give money (or find a shaliach on Purim day who will give it to the 
evyon on Purim day) or you're not yotzei. 

> Old me:
> >>>Does the fact that a person not have the shlichus in mind when [he
> >>>gave the money to the shliach] m'akev?  I don't think so.

> RCS:
> >>>Then how are you appointing a shaliach? 

> I think we assume that a person's stam daas is that it is working
> through shlichus; IOW, there is no specific requirement that the
> person have the shlichus in mind or that he makes a declaration to
> that effect.  

You can designate a shaliach without da'as? 

> (There are other situations where a person does not have to something
> specifically in mind, but instead we presume that his intention is the
> correct one.  For example, if one is still davening shemona esrei and
> he wants to be yotzei kedusha through shomea k'oneh, he can listen the
> shaliach tzibbur.  I think there is a presumption that every shaliach
> tzibbur has in mind to be motzei other people.  

But there's a difference between what every shaliach has in mind the
entire year and having in mind specifically to make a shaliach for
matanos la'evyonim, which is different from other tzedaka money in that
(a) it cannot come from ma'aser ksafim money, (b) it has to be delivered
specifically on Purim and (c) it is designated as matanos la'evyonim
and not as tzedaka.

> While I admit there
> are distinctions between these two cases, I think that when a person
> gives money, before Purim, to an organization, for the organization to
> distribute to evyonim on Purim day, the person's "staam das" is to do
> the mitzva the right way, i.e., by making the organization his
> shaliach.)

He has done a mitzva. He has given tzedaka. He has not been m'kayeim 
matanos la'evyonim, at least not according to the MB. 

-- Carl

RCS:
> Which means that Matanos la'Evyonim has to be different than stam
> tzedaka money (something which would also appear to be the case from SA
> OH 694:2. If you're designating a shaliach way before Purim, how do you
> ensure that the money doesn't get mixed up with other tzedaka money?

Most of these organizations have matanos l'evyonim appeals - I assume
that if one sends them a check with "matanos l'evyonim" written in the
memo section, the organization won't mix it up with other tzedaka money.

Old Me:
> Where do you see that the mitzva is to appoint the shaliach on that  day?

RCS:
> In the Biur Halacha that I quoted. 

I don't think the Biur Halacha says anything like that.

> Me:
> Why can't I give my shaliach an apple and a can of soda today and ask
> him to deliver it to a friend of mine on Purim day?

RCS:
> You can. But are you m'kayeim the mitzva like that? 

Yes.

RCS: 
> The mitzva is to do it on Purim. You make a bracha on it on Purim
> when you read the megillah in the morning. If you've already designated
> a shaliach to take care of the entire mitzva for you, on what are you
> making (or hearing) a bracha on Purim morning?

First of all, I think this is one of the reasons that we *don't* make
a specific bracha on matanos l'evyonim. Second, "shliach adam k'moso"
- this allows me to make a bracha on Purim morning on the money that my
shliach will give to the ani later that day.

RCS:
> But [the Biur Halacha is] saying that (a) you can't be yotzei with
> giving money to the evyon before Purim dilma achlei and (b) that the
> minhag is to designate a shaliach in advance but you can't be yotzei
> that way either and therefore (c) you'd better find an evyon on Purim
> day to give money (or find a shaliach on Purim day who will give it to
> the evyon on Purim day) or you're not yotzei.

I don't know where you see (b) in the BH that you quoted.

Old me:
> I think we assume that a person's stam daas is that it is working 
> through shlichus; IOW, there is no specific requirement that the 
> person have the shlichus in mind or that he makes a declaration to 
> that effect.

RCS:
> You can designate a shaliach without da'as? 

Yes, when the mitzva is normally done that way, we presume that there
was such da'as. When you give $$$ to the matanos l'evyonim collection
on Purim morning, do you have specific da'as to designate a shaliach?
I don't think most people do.

RCS:
> But there's a difference between what every shaliach has in mind
> the entire year and having in mind specifically to make a shaliach for
> matanos la'evyonim, which is different from other tzedaka money in that
> (a) it cannot come from ma'aser ksafim money, (b) it has to be delivered
> specifically on Purim and (c) it is designated as matanos la'evyonim
> and not as tzedaka.

I don't see why these factors should make a difference when it comes to
the din of sh'lichus

RCS:
...
> He has done a mitzva. He has given tzedaka. He has not been m'kayeim 
> matanos la'evyonim, at least not according to the MB. 

I still don't know where you see this in the MB/BH. (Again, I will take
a look inside when I get home.)

KT
Aryeh

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