Avodah Mailing List

Volume 12 : Number 086

Sunday, February 1 2004

• Re: Hot Pad selfheating footwarmer on Shabbos
• Re: Hot Pad selfheating footwarmer on Shabbos
• airplane bathrooms
• Nesher
• Re: Slavery
• RE: zfardea=crocodile?
• Re: Airplane bathrooms
• Re: airplane bathrooms
• Re: Direction of Tefillah
• Re: zfardea=crocodile?
• Re: Direction of Tefillah
• Re Mi She'oso Nissim
• Hasgachah Pratit/K'lalit
• Eretz Zavas Chalav uDevash
• Re: Names of Avos
• Re: Direction of Tefillah
• Re: Hot Pad selfheating footwarmer on Shabbos
• Re: Slavery
• Re: airplane bathrooms
• Sefiros according to REED
• Re: Eretz Zavas Chalav uDevash
• Re: airplane bathrooms
• Mishna in Avos
• praying to the east
• Re: Slavery in the Torah

> Contents: iron dust, activated
> charcoal powder, cellulose, zeolite. Made in Korea.

> How does this process work with respect to hilchos Shabbas. It is
> presumably not aish -- but what chemical process is it?

A question which might help to shed light on this: If very finely divided
iron dust is exposed to air, it will burst into flame. This is not a case
of carbon combustion, rather a very fast 'rusting' reaction which looks
like a carbon fire. Many chemical reactions resemble carbon combustion,
and carbon combustion can take place in ways that do not resemble fire.
The question is, what, at the fundamental level, defines the halachic
concept of 'esh'. What about initiating other chemical reactions?
Clearly initiating any chemical reaction is not asur, because just about
any activity, such as eating, would do so, But what about when the
chemical reaction appears to separate a substance into two components,
such as gas and solid, or two solids?. Similarly I believe that heating
metal until it melts is asur. Do similar principles of change of phase
apply in other situations? These are fundamental questions of the
interaction between Shabbat and science - do we have any experts here?

Jonathan Cohen
jcoh003@ec.auckland.ac.nz

This device which produces an exothermic chemical reaction providing heat
obviously isn't an issur d'oraita as there's no flame. But it could be
Nolad. See: Rambam Hilchot Shabbat 4 :6 "aval ein manichin kli she'yesh
bo davar tzonen al gabei kli cham she'harei molich bo chom b'shabbat".
I think this question was asked in the army here a few years ago by
soldiers staioned on top of the Chermon during the winter with below
zero temperatures.

Incidentally, there's a quite bizarre far infrared emitting textile
that produces temperatures over yad soledet (with no shaking or chemical
reaction involved)and I wonder what its halachic status will be. (My lab
at the medical school is actually getting 10 square yards of this in 2
weeks for testing on diabetic patients so maybe I'll "patchgeh" around
with a sq. foot. If it heats up food, then we have a serious question
how to deal with it on shabbat since it's not really "hatmanah". The
fabric is supposed to be kept 4 inches from the patient's skin.).

[The exothermic reaction generates heat; the fabric contains it
intrinsically]

Josh

Rabbi Zivotofsky wrote:
<<.....An airplane bathroom is more like a real beis kisei that is
cleaned out on a very regular basis.>>

Can you wash n'tilas yadayim in an airplane bathroom (waking up in the
morning, after using the facilities, or before eating)?

 - Ilana

In RNSlifkin's email for this week, he pointed out that the nesher
takes Vayiqra 11:13-19 to indicate that the nesher is the paradigmatic
owf tamei.

Which makes the expression "al kanfei nesharim" interesting. Why is the
mashal that of being saved by a tamei bird?

Ad kan the serious question. Now for some idle speculation likely to
irritate RSBA and RnSBoublil alike....

The Misyavnim are referred to as temei'im, in Al haNissim's "temei'im
beyad tehorim". Is the "nesher" the Herzlian Zionist?

-mi

From: Zev Sero <zev@sero.name>
> Some posters seem to be under the impression that an eved kenaani is a
> slave from the nation Kenaan, and that the laws of eved kenaani have
> something to do with the particular history of that nation. But this
> is quite the opposite of the truth: we are in fact not allowed to buy
> slaves from Kenaan, because we are commanded "lo techayeh kol 
> neshama".
> Instead, the Torah tells us that we can buy slaves "from the nations
> that surround you", and from "the strangers who live among you" (Vayikra
> 25:44-46, see Rashi).

Chazal and the meforshim see Kenaan's lowly and immoral act as a "binyan
av" (paradigm) for all avadim.

MR Ber. 36:5: R. Yaakov said: why is an eved [kenani] freed for an "eye"
or a "tooth" -- from here [in Beraishis by Kenaan] because its says Kenaan
"looked" and "spoke" [with his teeth about Noach's nakedness].

See R Bechaya (Ber.) and Chizkuni (to Shemos 21:5) who quote this Midrash.
Shem Mishmuel to Parshas Noach on this Midrash: sight and speech are
spiritual powers in the human being, and it is inappropriate for human
beings who have these gifts of speech and sight to be enslaved, except
when man misuses them. The pain of a lost eye or tooth cleanses the
abuse and thus the eved goes free.

Haamek Devar to Ber. 9:25 on the clause "eved avadim": 
Offspring of Shem and Yefes were also enslaved, and not all offspring
of Kenaan were. Rather the curse is that due to Kenaan's lowly act he
and his offpsring (whom Kenaan commanded to love theft, immorality
etc.) developed in themsleves a corrupt slave mentality wheras the
offpsring of Shem and Yefes "aspire to be free" (shoef leheyos chofshi)
and will therefore through their "hishtadlus" become free. "Therefore
every eved akum is called an eved kenani because it was Kenaan who was
the paradigm of this slave mentality".

I cannot resist including yet another insight from RSRH Ber. 14:14. Lot
is taken captive by the four kings and Avraham goes out to battle to
save Lot. He leads an army of 318 "chanichav yelidei baisav". He had
318 human souls whom he had enobled and educated [lashon chinuch] to
the pure human calling in the midst of general degneration. They are
yelidei baisav "born in his household" which is why they could become
"chanichav", unlike Lot who could not be enobled because he was an
already formed character. Education must begin at birth. In the next
verse these human souls of his household are called "avadav". This may
well provide an illuminating insight into "slavery" in the people of
Abraham. It was a way to win human souls over from pagan degeneracy to
Abrahamitic clarity of thought and truth. "A Jewish slave became a "ben
beris", a son of the covenant with G-d, and this relationship formed a
striking contrast to slavery of modern times where a man would risk his
life if he gave slaves spiritual and moral education."

Although it is hard for us westerners to accept the concept, we Jews see
ourselves as exchanging servitude to Pharoah with servitude to G-d [a
person is only truly free to the extent that he labours in Torah]. The
Maharal in Shemos 12:6 (this week's parsha :-) explains that the two
mitzvos of Bris Milah and Korban Pesach represent this aspect of our
relationship with G-d (see Gur Aryeh for the details). So there is much
to learn from the Torah view, even with reference to ourselves, who are
blessed with freedom, which should not at all be confused with the cruel
system of the nations.

With kind regards ... Jonathan

Prof. Sperber's explanation concerning the relationship of the bird with
the crocodile is indeed ingenious. But it must be said that while there
appears to be evidence that the bird perches on the crocodile's back,
it is not so clear if it really enters the croc's mouth:

".No reliable observer since then (the 5th century account by Herodotus)
has seen [it] acting as a crocodile toothpick... The myth has been
perpetuated in the literature and needs finally to be laid to rest, unless
contrary proof can be found." Maclean, G. L. 1996. Family Glareolidae
(Coursers and Pratincoles). Pp. 364-383 in del Hoyo, J., Elliott, A.,
& Sargatal, J., eds. Handbook of the Birds of the World vol. 3. Lynx
Edicions, Barcelona.

Incidentally, Netziv says that whereas most of Egypt was plagued only
by frogs, Pharaoh and his entourage were attacked by crocodiles.

Kol tuv
Nosson Slifkin
www.zootorah.com

From: Avi Burstein <betera@012.net.il>
> Presumably that's because bathrooms nowadays are very clean. If that's
> the reason, I wonder if it applies to airplane bathrooms which aren't as
> clean as household ones and often have strong odors emanating from them.

Our bathrooms are not their bathrooms.

As recently as 100 years ago or perhaps even more recently than that,
"bathrooms" were literally outhouses. This is what is considered a
"House of the chair" or Beis HaKisei. I encountered still existing such
facilities in Meron where they did not have plumbing at one particular
facility. Trust me! there is a good reason for not allowing Teffilah
in such places. They are literally a "Graf Shel Reyee" and quite
unbearable to be in, near, and around... for those of us "spoiled"
by modern conveniences.

Our "bathrooms' with modern plumbing where the Tzoeh is literally
flushed out of the room is nowhere near comparable to anything like
an outhouse. The same thing is true of airplane bathrooms. There is no
Tzoeh left in the room after flushing. So, for all intents and purposes
our bathroomshave no din of a Beis Hakisei but Poskim feel that as a
matter of Kavod one should not use a room for Devarim Shebekedusha. It
is just a Chumra and not Ikkar HaDin, IIRC.

HM

On 29 Jan 2004 at 21:41, Ilana Sober wrote:
> Rabbi Zivotofsky wrote:
> <<.....An airplane bathroom is more like a real beis kisei that is
> cleaned out on a very regular basis.>>

> Can you wash n'tilas yadayim in an airplane bathroom (waking up in the
> morning, after using the facilities, or before eating)?

AFAIK (and this is what I recall Rav Nebenzahl telling my chavrusa and
me in Yeshiva since in most of the world outside of Israel they don't
put sinks outside the bathroom and the kitchen), you can wash your hands
in the bathroom, but you should not dry them completely, and then you
leave the bathroom, dry them and make the bracha (where required).

But I found RAZ's assertion puzzling for a different reason. Airplane
bathrooms have a tank beneath them to store the waste - but those tanks
also have an airtight seal (think about the sound that an airplane toilet
makes after flushing). Unless the toilet is stopped up, it is unlikely
to smell more - and probably smells less - than a household toilet.

-- Carl

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son, 
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much. 

On 29 Jan 2004 at 13:39, Zev Sero wrote:
> It seems to me obvious that one should face the great-circle path (i.e.
> NE from NY).   

But that's not the flight path either. The flight path is NNE (straight
up the east coast and then over the outer reaches of Nova Scotia
and Newfoundland and then across) at the beginning, and gradually it
turns ESE.

The psak I saw was to face the window (if you are facing anything)
regardless of direction. Of course, if you follow the authorities cited
earlier in this discussion regarding sitting, there is really only one
way you CAN face.

 - Carl

Zoo Torah wrote:
> ".No reliable observer since then (the 5th century account by Herodotus)
> has seen [it] acting as a crocodile toothpick... The myth has been
> perpetuated in the literature and needs finally to be laid to rest, unless
> contrary proof can be found." Maclean, G. L. 1996. Family Glareolidae
> (Coursers and Pratincoles). Pp. 364-383 in del Hoyo, J., Elliott, A.,
> & Sargatal, J., eds. Handbook of the Birds of the World vol. 3. Lynx
> Edicions, Barcelona.

Another resource rejecting the zfardea = crocodile idea:

My father wrote me:
<snip>
> However, I have an 1857 translation of William Gesenius' "Lexicon Manuele
> Hebraicum et Chaldaicum." which states, "This quinqueliteral appears to
> be a blend of the verb TzaPhaR (to dance) and [an Arabic word for]
> March. as if "leaping in a Marsh." He rejects any connection with Tzipor
> apparently believing that the croaking of frogs is to dissimilar to the
> chirping of a bird.
<snip>

can someone elaborate the arabic words to which this source refers?
good shabbos
elly

 --
Elly Bachrach
Engineering Intent http://www.EngineeringIntent.com
mailto:EBachrach@EngineeringIntent.com

From: Zev Sero <zev@sero.name>
> Due east from the NY area is definitely wrong - that doesn't even get
> you to Israel on a Mercator map, and davening toward 'mizrach', as
> opposed to toward Eretz Yisrael, is actually the exact opposite of what
> we are supposed to do.

Interesting note on this subject.
Here in Melbourne I have noticed that the direction of davvening depends
which Shul you are in. Thus one has a choice of davvening in any one of
4 directions(!).

For the benefit of RZS and others who know Melbourne, here is a list
[of some that I can think of] - Adass Yisroel/Gerer shtiebel/Lakewood
Kollel/Merkaz Hatorah/YGk's 770 = West. Chabad/Mizrachi = North. Elwood =
East. Gandel-Besen = South.

I sometimes wonder if we are all davvening towards the same target...

SBA

From: Joel Goldstein <>
SBA Wrote
>> And does anyone comment about what the geula has to do with RC or the
>> Shabbos prior? Why this special and unique tefilah?

> IIRC I once saw in the sidur of RSRH that we say mi she`asa nisim by
> kidush hachoidesh because when we are mekayem that mitzva we remind
> ourselves of the first mitzva we were given by geulas mitzrayim which
> was mitzvas kidush hachodesh.

I have now seen the same explanation by the Shaarei Efrayim [Shaar 10:36].
Also the Baal Torah Temimah in his peirushim al Tefilah.

Next question - "Chaverim Kol Yisroel". How does that fit in to this
tefilah? And why punkt here?

My ShE has a peirush Shaarei Rachamim who guides us to: 'ayin Teshuva
Sheleimoh behakdomo ma shekosav bezeh dovor nochoin'

The Otzar Hatefilos' peirush Dover Sholom explains that to qualify for
the final stage of geulah we all gotta be chaverim...

BTW the Tikun Tefilah there bring several ancient nuscho'os for this
tefilah - and none include 'chaverim kol yisroel'.

SBA

I heard an interesting vort which got me thinking about these concepts -
just wanted to throw out an idea that others and I thought of - I'm sure
it's no chiddush but maybe someone can point me in the right direction.
The vort was about the distinction between 'kol man d'avid rachamana
l'tova avideh' and Nachum Ish-Gamzu's 'gam zu l'tova'.

The idea was that 'gam zu l'tova' represents a higher 'lishmah' version,
because it states that the event in question is itself of worth, rather
than 'l'tova avideh' ie rather than saying that even though it might
not be worthwhile in and of itself it will lead to good results.

This idea effectively demolishes any kind of defence of tragedy in
the world which relies on saying that it was for a good purpose in
the end (even to increase isurin so that the righteous might merit a
greater reward in Olam HaBa). Rather the tragedy must be of worth in
and of itself. It evokes a timeless and static picture of the world
(from HKBH's point of view) in which, perforce, each distinct event on
the space/time axis is chosen for it's individual worth. The basic idea
can easily be explained to fit either a Rambamist view of hasgacha or
a chassidic one, but the basic idea is the same.

What kind of sources are there that deal with this side of the question?

Jonathan Cohen
jcoh003@ec.auckland.ac.nz

Over Shabbos, I heard the following from the Lubliner:

Why does the Torah bedavqa choose these two things to praise EY? Aren't
there other items that could equally well be used to show its bounty?

"Hadam ne'eqar vena'asah chalav". Chalav is from a davar tamei, but it
itself is tahor.

Devash comes from the devorah, a davar tamei, and also somehow becomes
tahor. In fact, any bee limbs or flesh that falls into the devash becomes
devash and tahor.

This is the praise of EY, that it's metaheir hatemei'im.

(I'm sure many share my surprise that he assumes it's bee honey and not
date nectar.)

Gut Voch!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 Life is complex.
micha@aishdas.org                Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org               The Torah is complex.
Fax: (413) 403-9905                                - R' Binyamin Hecht

On Wed, Jan 28, 2004 at 12:43:26PM -0500, Mlevinmd@aol.com wrote:
: Why did the Tannaim seem not to use the now common Biblical names; such
: as Avrohom, Aharon, Moshe, David? There seems to be a preference for
: names of the shevatim or newly coined ones, like Akiva, Tarfon, Elazar,
: Yochai etc. I appreciate any information on that.

The rule as I was taught it is that they didn't use the names of any of
the ushpizin, if one counts Shelomo rather than Yoseif keneged Malchus.

I think R' Aqiva was named for Ya'aqov avinu.

Gut Voch!
-mi

On Thu, Jan 29, 2004 at 01:39:41PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
: (Yes, some support *could* be adduced from hilchot techumin, but I don't
: really think so.  On the scale of techumin, the distortion introduced by
: the Mercator method is very tiny, especially compared to the quite
: visible distortion caused by the sqrt(2) = 1.4 error that chazal
: deliberately allowed in order to make the calculation easier.)

I used to think that it wasn't simply about making calculation easy,
but making it possible. After all, sqrt(2) is irrational. To do any work
with it, *some* estimate limiting the precision is necessary.

I've posted to this effect in this form, both about using 1.4 for sqrt(2)
and using 3 for pi.

But thinking about it, what calculation is necessary altogether? What
you need is a sqrt(2) or pi ammah long rope, which can be produced by
geometric construction given only Euclid. No algebra of any precision
to produce a rope as accurately measured at the 10 ammah rope used for
techumim.

Gut Voch!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 Life is complex.
micha@aishdas.org                Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org               The Torah is complex.
Fax: (413) 403-9905                                - R' Binyamin Hecht

On Fri, Jan 30, 2004 at 05:08:00AM +0200, BACKON@vms.HUJI.AC.IL wrote:
: Incidentally, there's a quite bizarre far infrared emitting textile
: that produces temperatures over yad soledet (with no shaking or chemical
: reaction involved)and I wonder what its halachic status will be....
: [The exothermic reaction generates heat; the fabric contains it
: intrinsically]

I can't understand what the material is from your description. Something
can't produce heat or any other energy continuously. It defies the laws
of conservation (if the heat is created) and/or thermodynamics (if the
heat is collected without work).

Is the material some kind of self-consuming fuel?
Is it akin to glow-in-the-dark material that absorbs light and re-emits
the energy as heat?

Gut Voch!
-mi

On Fri, Jan 30, 2004 at 12:48:46AM -0500, Jonathan S. Ostroff wrote:
: Although it is hard for us westerners to accept the concept, we Jews see
: ourselves as exchanging servitude to Pharoah with servitude to G-d [a
: person is only truly free to the extent that he labours in Torah]...

I wrote something along those lines in a vort titled "Sweet Charoses".
As in: Why is something made to look like mortar and avdus traditionally,
at least since some time after Chazal's day, made sweet?)

 From <http://www.aishdas.org/asp/pesach.shtml>:
     "'The tablets were engraved (charus) by G-d, and the writing was
     the writing of G-d.' (Sh'mos 32) Don't read 'charus', but 'cheirus'
     (freedom). For no one is more free than one is busy with Torah
     study."
     -- Pirkei Avos 6:2
...
   This is a major theme in the Exodus story in general. As we say in
   Sh'ma "I am Hashem your G-d who took you out of the land of Egypt to
   be for you a G-d/Legislator."

   We also have a key to understanding the apparently oxymoronic
   symbolism of charoses. It doesn't represent the bitter servitude of
   Par'oh, but the sweet, voluntary yoke of heaven. We eat is with maror,
   which does represent the bitter slavery, and give it the appearance of
   that servitude to bring to mind the contrast.

   Charoses, like being a "servant of the Holy One" has a surface layer,
   an appearance of the mortar of slavery. But experientially, it's very
   different. "Na'aseh viNishmah" -- only by doing can we hear the
   beauty, the depth, of the Torah.

Gut Voch!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 Life is complex.
micha@aishdas.org                Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org               The Torah is complex.
Fax: (413) 403-9905                                - R' Binyamin Hecht

On Fri, Jan 30, 2004 at 02:37:20PM +0200, Carl and Adina Sherer wrote:
: But I found RAZ's assertion puzzling for a different reason. Airplane
: bathrooms have a tank beneath them to store the waste - but those tanks
: also have an airtight seal (think about the sound that an airplane toilet
: makes after flushing). Unless the toilet is stopped up, it is unlikely
: to smell more - and probably smells less - than a household toilet.

In my experience, it smells more. I can't offer a reason why that should
be, though.

Gut Voch!
-mi

Appropos to our recent discussion:

The following list is from a late night reading of MmE I, pg 311. Please
check yourself and post corrections:
1- The 10 sefiros are how Hashem's actions look to us according to
our stance.
2- Even in nevuah one could not see His middos to their full extent.
3- In nevu'ah one sees from our perspective deep spiritual things in
physical forms.
4- Since what one comprehends from nevu'ah is from our perspective,
it is not a mashal at all. Rather, it is mamash the metzi'us as it
relates to us.

I thought it was relevent because:

a- He does not consider the sefiros to be real nivra'im.

b- It matches how I understood the Abarbanel to explain the Morah,
that Avraham's nevu'ah of seeing three mal'achim describes something
that actually happened, even if the perception wasn't sensory. (Not that
REED claims his is the Rambam's position.) He describes what I called a
"chazon" as opposed to a "chalom". It would seem REED altogether denies
the notion of a prophetic chalom.

Gut Voch!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 Life is complex.
micha@aishdas.org                Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org               The Torah is complex.
Fax: (413) 403-9905                                - R' Binyamin Hecht

On 1 Feb 2004 at 4:37, Micha Berger wrote:
> Why does the Torah bedavqa choose these two things to praise EY? Aren't
> there other items that could equally well be used to show its bounty?
> "Hadam ne'eqar vena'asah chalav". Chalav is from a davar tamei, but it
> itself is tahor.
> Devash comes from the devorah, a davar tamei, and also somehow becomes
> tahor. In fact, any bee limbs or flesh that falls into the devash becomes
> devash and tahor.

This much is (I think) a Gemara in Bechoros 6b.

-- Carl

Carl and Adina Sherer wrote:
>AFAIK (and this is what I recall Rav Nebenzahl telling my chavrusa and
>me in Yeshiva since in most of the world outside of Israel they don't
>put sinks outside the bathroom and the kitchen), you can wash your hands
>in the bathroom, but you should not dry them completely, and then you
>leave the bathroom, dry them and make the bracha (where required).

>But I found RAZ's assertion puzzling for a different reason. Airplane
>bathrooms have a tank beneath them to store the waste - but those tanks
>also have an airtight seal (think about the sound that an airplane toilet
>makes after flushing). Unless the toilet is stopped up, it is unlikely
>to smell more - and probably smells less - than a household toilet.

Reb Carl raised two points.

Regarding the first. I have often heard this assertion regarding drying
the hands outside the bathroom. Far be it from me to disagree with rav
Nebentzahl, but I always understood that to be an error. My understanding
was that either you can or cannot wash in a particular room. Drying them
outside would be of no avail if the room is not fit for washing.

Regarding the airplane. I was not discussing the smell or lack thereof. 
That is another issue. I am talking about the status of the room. I 
apologize for getting graphic. The gemara defines a beit kisei shel 
parsai as one in which the tzo'a immediately rolls away 4 amot. down a 
slanted hole. In a regular bathroom the tzo'a is immediately covered in 
the water. In an airplane there is no water. so the tzo'a just sits 
there until you flush. thus I am unsure if it too has the status of a 
beit kisei shel parsai with its attendant leniencies. There is no 
question it is infinitely cleaner than a traditional beit kisei, But 
that may not be enough of a halachik argument.

Does anyone have a reasonable understanding of the mishna about the 10
things that were created bein hashemashos?

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

> Due east from the NY area is definitely wrong - that doesn't even
> get  you to Israel on a Mercator map, and davening toward 'mizrach', 
> as  opposed to toward Eretz Yisrael, is actually the exact opposite of
> what  we are supposed to do.  

Why do we assume that one needs to pray "exactly" to EY rather than
in the general direction. The ancient shuls in the Galil face south,
I doubt they used any compass to be exact than that. Of course as one
gets closer to Jerusalem one needs to be more exact.

Similarly very few places in western Europe davened facing south-east
and I know very few places in Israel outside of Jerusalem that place
their aron kodesh on an exact angle to Jerusalem.

-- 
Prof. Eli Turkel,  turkel@post.tau.ac.il on 2/1/2004
Department of Mathematics, Tel Aviv University

From: "Chana Luntz" <chana@KolSassoon.net>
>  the basic starting point has to
> be that an eved knani is regarded as a chaver b'mitzvos

See Rabbi Cooperman's footnote 4 in his edition of Meshech Hochmah,
Parshas Bo 12:44 S.V. "V'chol eved ish".

David Riceman

*********************


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