Avodah Mailing List

Volume 12 : Number 063

Wednesday, December 24 2003

• RE: Did Yitzchok Avinu Speak Rechilus?
• RE: Did Yitzchok Avinu Speak Rechilus?
• RE: Did Yitzchok Avinu Speak Rechilus?
• Re: Did Yitzchok Avinu Speak Rechilus?
• RE: Did Yitzchok Avinu Speak Rechilus?
• Did Yitzchok Avinu Speak Rechilus?
• chanukah and trvelling by plane overnight
• RE: Avodah V12 #62
• Re: Driving on Shabbos in Lakewood
• RE: Driving on Shabbos in Lakewood
• Re: Chanukah Candles in Shul
• Re: Chanukah Lights and Late Work
• Re: Chanukah Lights and Late Work
• Candles at shul
• Re: Chanukah Candles in Shul
• RE: Free Kratzmach trees in Jerusalem
• Re: Maaser Kesafim
• Numi Abraham
• RE: Did Yitzchok Avinu Speak Rechilus?
• Re: Did Yitzchok Avinu Speak Rechilus?
• Re: Naked and Cunning
• The Mysterious Shape of the Menora
• chanukah and trvelling by plane overnight
• lighting in an airplane
• chanukah and trvelling by plane overnight
• Did Yitzchok Avinu Speak Rechilus?

On 23 Dec 2003 at 15:52, Rn Rena Freedenberg wrote:
> Actually, there was a definite tachlis. Eisav was due to get the bracha
> and then all of a sudden Eisav shows up and his father can't give it to
> him. What would you have had him say; oh, uh, I just changed my mind? Of
> course not. Yitzchok avinu had to tell his son the truth because he had
> to explain to his son Eisav why he wasn't getting the bracha he was
> expecting. 

Yes, but he didn't have to say that it was Yaakov who took the 
bracha. He could have said "I gave the bracha to someone else - I 
don't know whom I gave it to." Cf. the Gemara in Bava Basra 164b with 
R. Shimon b'Rebbe and Rebbe (IIRC) regarding the get m'kushar and the 
Tehillim.

 - Carl

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son, 
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much. 

RCS:
> Yes, but he didn't have to say that it was Yaakov who took the 
> bracha. He could have said "I gave the bracha to someone else - I 
> don't know whom I gave it to."...

But since there were only two "candidates" it would be obvious who he
gave it to.  Yitzchak only had two sons and one of them was to become
his spiritual heir -- if it wasn't Eisav it doesn't take too much to
figure out who it was. This would seem to be different than a case of
who a get was given to, no?

Besides, Yitzchak avinu was not a liar and presumably didn't want to
become one.

 --Rena 

On 23 Dec 2003 at 19:36, Rn Rena Freedenberg wrote:
>> Yes, but he didn't have to say that it was Yaakov who took the 
>> bracha. He could have said "I gave the bracha to someone else - I 
>> don't know whom I gave it to." Cf. the Gemara in Bava Basra 164b with 
>> R. Shimon b'Rebbe and Rebbe (IIRC) regarding the get m'kushar and the 
>> Tehillim.

> But since there were only two "candidates" it would be obvious who he
> gave it to.  

According to the CC, if that's the case, then you're not allowed to say it
at all. Why couldn't Yitzchak make up another bracha (which is what he did
in the end)? Why did he have to tell Eisav that Yaakov took the bracha?

> Yitzchak only had two sons and one of them was to become
> his spiritual heir -- if it wasn't Eisav it doesn't take too much to
> figure out who it was. This would seem to be different than a case of
> who a get was given to, no?

See above.

> Besides, Yitzchak avinu was not a liar and presumably didn't want to
> become one.

Adina read this over my shoulder and said, "even Hashem lied for Shalom
Bayis" ("v'adoni zakein" v. "v'ani zakanti" in Parshas VaYeira).

 - Carl

On 23 Dec 2003 at 17:53, SBA wrote:
> Nu, so Yitzchok told Eisov the facts...So what?
> Is it rechilus to report to someone that I saw ploni robbing your home??

Yes, unless there's a toeles (i.e. that the person you are telling is 
going to go and recover the money from ploni). Where's the toeles 
here (and since we're talking about Yitzchak Avinu, I have to believe 
there was one, but it's not obvious)? 

 - Carl

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son, 
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much. 

>> But since there were only two "candidates" it would be obvious who he 
>> gave it to.

> According to the CC, if that's the case, then you're not allowed to 
> say it at all. Why couldn't Yitzchak make up another bracha (which is 
> what he did in the end)? Why did he have to tell Eisav that Yaakov 
> took the bracha? 

Well, it would seem that Yitzchak's actions are more correct than
our understanding of the CC in this case. Adina is right that Hashem
changed Sarah's words when he "reported" them to Avraham for the reason
of shalom bayis, but apparently in this case neither Yitzchak nor Hashem
was concerned about maintaining shalom bayis between Eisav and Ya'akov.
[I say Hashem wasn't concerned because Yitzchak wasn't punished for
revealing the matter truthfully.]

"V'YECHARAD YITZCHAK" When Ya'akov came in to his father, Yitzchak
smelled the rayach of gan eden; when Eisav came in afterwards, Yitzchak
saw gehinnom opening before him. Pirkei d'rav Kahana says that "the
presence of gehinnom with Eisav made Yitzchak realize that he had been
decieved all along - Eisav was truly evil. This made Yitzchak fear that
the vision of gehinnom proved that he, Yitzchak, would be punished for
having allowed himself to be so grievously misled.

Now, since Yitzchak has just realized just who this son of his is, I
am not sure that that Yitzchak really cared how upset Eisav was going
to be, as he just found out he had been really duped. [Are these "he's"
clear?] and it seems possible that Yitzchak was *Deliberately* telling
Eisav what happened to say "I know who you really are and you are not
going to carry on my legacy".

Just because one is permitted to change the truth slightly in the *Very
Limited* case of shalom bayis does not mean that this gives us a blanket
heter to lie whenever we feel like it or whenever it will cause someone
to be angry at us.

 --Rena 

From: "Carl and Adina Sherer" <sherer@actcom.co.il>
<<Did Yitzchok Avinu speak rechilus when he told Aisav "ba achicha
b'mirma va'yikach birchosecha"?>>

Not according to Targum Unkelos.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

From: "SBA" <sba@iprimus.com.au>
> I heard from someone here that our Rav paskened in such a case to take
> along a flashlight [what we call a torch], and have that with you in
> your seat. Switch it on [without a brocho] and hold it for half an hour.

I've heard this too.  No holding, though;  it has to be set down.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

Chanuka candles:
There are two obligations on Chanuka, to light the candles and to see
the lights.

To perform the mitzvah of Persumie Nisa, and to experience the Pirsumie
Nisa. This is why we make two blessings. I am aware that what I just
wrote is following one line in the rishonim, but I want to exaggerate
this point in order to make the issues understandable.

If one will not perform the mitzvah himself i.e. he is away from home
he should then make the bracha on pirsumie nisa - sheasa nissim when he
sees Chanuka lights.

Hence the opinion that if a guest hears the bracha in shul, and will not
light by himself he is yozie - pirsumie nisa, hence it is probably best
for such a guest to actually light in shul.

The mitzvah and bracha of lihadlik, can only be made in your own home -
or where you are spending the night, which means sleeping. Tosfos in
Sukkah suggest that a homeless person has no obligation (though if you
want to be technical Tosfos really means that you have an obligation -
but no place to light) If you are away for dinner, you can not light in
the restaurant. If you are in an airport past shekia, but will not be
sleeping there you can not light there.

Does the plane constitute a place of sleeping? I have my doubts, if it
does not, you can not light. If you were driving all night in a cab,
I doubt you would have an obligation to light there.

The lighting in shul does not fulfill the obligation to light, it
is a special law designed to spread pirsumi nisa independently of the
obligation to light. This is a special law in a Shul, and may be extended
to a Town Square.

In a shul one lights even in the morning to publicize the miracle, but
there is no bracha or mitzvah performed, therefore the suggestion that
one could light in the morning bases on this practice is unfounded.

If you suggest that a flash light is good, then why not the overhead
light on top of the seat?, I doubt that is good in any case.

If one is away from home, and someone in the home lights, you have
fulfilled your basic obligation, this seems to be the best solution to
the problem raised.

The edition of the Kitzur mentioned is the one with the notes of the
forme chief Rabbi of Tel Aviv Rabbi Halevy, it is used in many schools
here in Israel.

Ari Kahn

"Danny Schoemann" <dannyschoemann@hotmail.com> wrote:
> This thread has been bothering me. Every few days another such story is
> added to the list. I think we're up to 4 recent incidents already.

And, somewhat to balance the picture, at least one case, reported in the
newspaper, of a busload of boys who stopped before shkiya and walked to
the nearest community, thus creating a kiddush hashem.

-- 
Zev Sero                    "I will do whatever the Americans want,
zsero@free-market.net       because I saw what happened in Iraq, and
                             I was afraid."
                                                - Muammar Gadaffi

R' Danny Schoemann wrote <<< Every few days another such story is added
to the list. I think we're up to 4 recent incidents already.>>>

I'm only aware of one such story, about a bus going to Lakewood on
December 5. Which posts mentioned a different story? Are you thinking
about the various hypothetical comments that people made about airplanes
which land on Shabbos?

RDS continued <<< While I fully understand the concept of relying on
a goy in order to provide proper Oneg Shabbes and Menuchas Hanefesh to
all involved, I am wondering whatever happened to the concept of Kidush
Hashem and Mesiras Nefesh.>>>

It's much more than just Oneg and Menucha. It can be Sakanas Nefashos too.

My friend continued driving for 2.5 hours past shkia that day. Prior to
shkia, in those sub-freezing temperatures, he opened the driver's window
about 2/3 of the way, so that he wouldn't have to operate the switch
upon arriving at the toll booth. (The idea to drive through without
paying didn't occur to him, I guess. I chose not to cross-examine him
on that point.)

Upon reaching a point about a mile from his home, he parked the car and
left all his stuff inside it. (I did not ask if he asked a non-Jew to
turn off the engine.) It took him another 30-40 minutes to walk home. He
had a decent coat, but no hat, and no boots.

The weather in some places was worse than in others. Hilchos Yom
HaKippurim teaches us that "a person knows his own illness" and if he is
convinced that he must eat, he can do so even if the doctor disagrees.
Wouldn't the same apply here? If a person sees the weather outside,
and knows what kind of clothes he has, and knows his own sensitivity
to cold, and judges the health risks (frostbite, or whatever) to be
life-threatening, then what's your problem?

"What happened to the concept of Mesiras Nefesh?" This *was* Mesiras
Nefesh!

Akiva Miller

"SBA" <sba@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>>At shul on Friday, erev Chanukah, the Rabbi lit the Menorah in the shul.
>>He put the Menorah against the window on the South Side of the Shul and
>>lit the candle of the far left.

> But I was also suprised to read that the menorah in shul is lit by
> the window. In all shuls that I have seen the menorah lit, it is done
> in front - near the Oron Hakodesh.

Just down the road from you, at Yeshivah, the menorah is lit in the south,
which is at the back of the shul, since, as you know, the shul faces north.
(There are also 2 electric menorot in front, which are lit on chanukah
according to the number of the day, but they are intended for decoration
only. Outside chanukah, all 9 lights are lit, on both menorot, as well as
the lights on the bima, on days when tachanun is omitted.) Or at least,
that's how it was done when I used to daven there.

IIRC your shul faces west, so the south wall would be the left; perhaps your
shul lights at the front of the left wall, which would fulfil both ideas -
front and south.

-- 
Zev Sero                    "I will do whatever the Americans want,
zsero@free-market.net       because I saw what happened in Iraq, and
                              I was afraid."
                                                - Muammar Gadaffi

In Avodah V12 #62 dated 12/23/03  Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> writes:
> I would amend (b) to:
> There are 2 mitzvos -- the de'Oraisah of pirsumei nisa, and the deRabbanan
> of hadlaqas neiros. They aren't totally independent, as the hadlaqah
> is based in a mishoreshei hamitzvah way to PN.

In the particular case of Chanuka lights, PN is not a deOraisah because
the whole yom tov of Chanukah [and all the events it commemorates] comes
from a period long after Matan Torah and is ipso facto not a deOraisah.
In the general case of PN for nissim that happened to Klal Yisrael,
or to one Jewish community, or to one Jew--well, I did not know that
publicizing nissim in general is a deOraisah, although if you tell me
that it is, I can believe it. But then I would want to know how and
when to fulfill this mitzva.

If in the case of one particular nes, Chazal said, "PN for this nes is to
be fulfilled in this manner" then maybe doing it that way and no other
would be a deOraisa. In the window, at home, not on top of a car, etc.
If there's a set of dinim regarding the fulfillment of the general
deOraisah of pirsumei nisa, I wonder why I never heard of it. Maybe I
shouldn't wonder. There is so MUCH I never learned--as I discover daily.

 -Toby Katz

On Tue, Dec 23, 2003 at 05:20:12PM -0500, T613K@aol.com wrote:
: In the particular case of Chanuka lights, PN is not a deOraisah because
: the whole yom tov of Chanukah [and all the events it commemorates] comes
: from a period long after Matan Torah and is ipso facto not a deOraisah....

Pirsumei nisah is a de'Oraisa, regardless of when the neis occured. There
is a general mitzvah of informing others of nifla'os haborei. Probably
part of haqaras hatov -- which is de'Oraisa even through the tovah is
usually one performed well after matan torah.

That chazal took that theme for one neis and made neir chanukah about
it is a deRabbanan, but that's either:
1- A second din, according to the lomdus under discussion; or
2- the matbei'ah chosen, according to the Brisker Rav.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org        you don't chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org   You light a candle.
Fax: (413) 403-9905        - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l

> From: "SBA" <sba@iprimus.com.au>
> From: Harry Weiss <hjweiss@panix.com>
>> At shul on Friday, erev Chanukah, the Rabbi lit the Menorah in the shul.
>> He put the Menorah against the window on the South Side of the Shul and
>> lit the candle of the far left.

>> Several of us have never seen it lit on the left side before and asked
>> about it. He said that it came from the Kitzur. (It was not the standard
>> Kitzur but a sefer of halachot by that name from a Rabbi (I cannot
>> remember his name) in Tel Aviv.

> It would be interesting to know the sefer and its mechaber is.

I will check that name out.

> But I was also suprised to read that the menorah in shul is lit by
> the window. In all shuls that I have seen the menorah lit, it is done
> in front - near the Oron Hakodesh.

> And, IMHO, it makes sense thus. As the whole purpose of lighting in shul
> is pirsumei nisseh - for [I presume] the mispalleim, not the bypassers
> on the street.

> Any other shuls that light at the window?

I need to clarify one thing from my original post. It wasn't at the window
for outsiders to see in. The entire South wall of the shul is windows.
If it is done in front it is done by the East wall, which is different
that what appears in the Mishnah Berurah

My primary question was regarding on which side of the Menorah are
candles lit in various communities.

In Avodah V12 #62, SBAbeles responded to HJWeiss:
>> At shul on Friday, erev Chanukah, the Rabbi lit the Menorah in
the shul. He put the Menorah against the window on the South Side of
the Shul and lit the candle of the far left.... <<

> ....But I was also suprised to read that the menorah in shul is lit
by the window. In all shuls that I have seen the menorah lit, it is done
in front - near the Oron Hakodesh.... <

Perhaps the "window" is not an important component of RHJW's account
while the "south side" (mimicing the BhM arrangement) is (as noted by
RHM in the same Avodah digest).

All the best from
 - Michael Poppers via RIM pager

Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote [to Areivim, about JNF providing
free Xmas trees -mi]:
> R Akiva Atwood wrote:
>>> I am sure that all Blue Box supporters will be thrilled
>>> to learn how their money is used.

>> It's either that or burning them (these are trees that need to be
>> harvested).

> I might be shifting into Avodah territory, but isn't it better to burn
> them?

> Even according to Tosafos' qulah of declaring the trinity to be
> shutefus, the tree itself is pagan in origin.

It is certainly worth being machmir on issues of AZ. As the Gemmarah in
AZ indicates, it is assur to to do or say anything to Ovdei Kochavim
to enhance their Yom Eidom. That is why it is preffereable to say,
"Happy Holidays" to Christian gentiles and not "Merry Christmas".

HM

I read somewhere that the Rosh, in his will, asked his children to adopt
the minhag of maaser kesafim, which he brought with him from Germany.
This would indicate that it was not practised, or even heard of, in
Spain, where the Rosh's children were born and raised. (It also seems
to indicate that he and his family generally kept minhagei Sefarad,
and not the German minhagim that he grew up with.)

Biblical weights unearthed by archaeologists prove that the "Gerah"
weight was .57-.58 grams. This makes the Shekel 11.57 grams, see
David Hendin's Guide to Biblical coins.

The Shekel standard used in the Second Temple (Tyrian), as well as
the shekel of the First Revolt weighed 14 grams. Why the disparity?

Rava (350 CE) in Bechorot 10a explains in regard to another discussion
that the sages increased the shekel weight by 20%. (They adopted the
Tyrian standard)

Isn't it actually 16.6% as it is m'lebar. See menachos 77a. If so,
it comes out to 13.44 gm only.

M.Levin

On 23 Dec 2003 at 20:39, Rn Rena Freedenberg wrote:
> Well, it would seem that Yitzchak's actions are more correct than
> our understanding of the CC in this case. Adina is right that Hashem
> changed Sarah's words when he "reported" them to Avraham for the reason
> of shalom bayis, but apparently in this case neither Yitzchak nor Hashem
> was concerned about maintaining shalom bayis between Eisav and Ya'akov.

That doesn't change whether or not it was rechilus. 

> [I say Hashem wasn't concerned because Yitzchak wasn't punished for
> revealing the matter truthfully.]

How do you know that?

> Now, since Yitzchak has just realized just who this son of his is, I
> am not sure that that Yitzchak really cared how upset Eisav was going
> to be, as he just found out he had been really duped. [Are these "he's"
> clear?] and it seems possible that Yitzchak was *Deliberately* telling
> Eisav what happened to say "I know who you really are and you are not
> going to carry on my legacy".

That would not make it not be rechilus. Something can be true and 
still be rechilus. See "Doeg." 

[Email #2. -mi]

On 23 Dec 2003 at 13:59, Gershon Dubin wrote:
> From: "Carl and Adina Sherer" <sherer@actcom.co.il>
> <<Did Yitzchok Avinu speak rechilus when he told Aisav "ba achicha
> b'mirma va'yikach birchosecha"?>>

> Not according to Targum Unkelos.

The fact that Unkelos translates it as chochma does not mean it was
not rechilus.

-- Carl

From: "Carl and Adina Sherer" <sherer@actcom.co.il>
> SBA wrote:
>> Nu, so Yitzchok told Eisov the facts...So what?
>> Is it rechilus to report to someone that I saw ploni robbing your home??

> Yes, unless there's a toeles (i.e. that the person you are telling is
> going to go and recover the money from ploni). Where's the toeles
> here (and since we're talking about Yitzchak Avinu, I have to believe
> there was one, but it's not obvious)?

There's an issur to talk LH on a ganev or baal aveireh?

SBA

In Avodah V12 #35 dated 30 Oct 2003 "Micha Berger" <micha@aishdas.org> 
writes:
>> In yesterday's parsha, we are told (2:25-3:1): "And the man and his
>> wife were both arum and were not ashamed. And the nachash was more
>> arum than all the other animals..."
> ...

> RMB:  We also have Sarah say "tzechoq asah li E-lokim" upon Yitzchaq's birth
> (Ber 21:6) and 2 pesuqim later she sees Yichma'el is "metzacheiq" (v
> 8). Yitzchaq is "metzacheiq es Rivqa" in Avimelekh's palace (26:8),
> thereby giving away the ruse.

> Eliezer's finding Rivqa involves a paragraph of gamal (camal) and
> gamal (as a verb, gemillas chessed).

Sorry just now getting to something so old.

"Tzechok" not apt parallel because the different meanings of the word
in the pesukim you quote clearly derive from the same shoresh in a
logical way. "Gamal" better example because camel and kindness not
obviously related.

Could be that use of "arum" in two sentences in close proximity--but with
entirely different meanings--is just a poetic device, as you suggest.
But R' Seth Mandel has suggested that there were [are?] two different
ayins, and that "naked" and "cunning" may not be the same shoresh at all.

I myself am not comfortable with the idea that we have somehow "lost" an
ayin with the passage of time, but his suggestion is interesting. Hard to
explain, otherwise, how the same root can have such totally unrelated meanings.  
Comments?

 -Toby Katz

The Mysterious Shape of the Menora
Rabbi Yisroel Greenwald

 From the Arch of Titus, to the emblem of the State of Israel, the most
popularised vessel of the holy Temple is undoubtedly the Menora. Though
frequently replicated, and the subject of much artistic interpretation,
the exact shape of the Temple Menora is not simple to determine. Although
the Gemara delineates the height and general appearance of the
Menora, numerous details are omitted, and are subject to controversy.
<http://www.shemayisrael.com/chanukah/shape.htm>

[Also, see the image at
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/menorahRambam.jpg>, which is an
enlargement of the same image as figure 3. Provided RSG. In general,
my eyes could have used bigger pictures than those provided. -mi]

From: Zev Sero <zsero@free-market.net>
>> In terms of subsequent days, when I spoke about this with R' Daniel Z.
>> Feldman, he mentioned that there might be a question of whether you can
>> continue adding lights in subsequent days once you missed a day. In other
>> words, the mehadrin min ha-mehadrin is to add a candle each day and once
>> you miss a day you lose that mehadrin min ha-mehadrin.

> Why not light during the day, without a bracha?  Isn't that what we do
> in shul?

I don't think the comparison between continuing mehadrin min hamehadrin
after skipping a day to counting Omer during the day after missing a
night, holds up.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

Besides the question of sakanah is one allowed to light chanukkah candles
in the galley. I remember reading that one who goes to a hotel can only
light in his room and not in a public portion of the hotel because it
is not his "bayit" he only rents the room and not the lobby. Similarly
in a plane one only "rents" the immediate seat.

It would seem that if one does not have a "bayit" for that evening then
he is patur from lighting candles.

-- 
Eli Turkel,  turkel@post.tau.ac.il on 24/12/2003
Department of Mathematics, Tel Aviv University

The following shailah just happened to me yesterday.
A friend of mine is flying tonight and will not be home to light chanukah neiros. His Rav told him that he should have someone else light for him in his house with a beracha. He asked me to do it, so I wil be lighting his menorah in his house tonight with a beracha and then I'll stick around for about a half hour.



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From: "SBA" <sba@iprimus.com.au>
<<Nu, so Yitzchok told Eisov the facts...So what?
Is it rechilus to report to someone that I saw ploni robbing your
home??>>

No, it's lashon hara, unless the nignav has some hope of recovering
the loss. In this case, there was none; telling Eisav wasn't going to
restore the berachos to him.

*********************


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