Avodah Mailing List

Volume 11 : Number 045

Thursday, July 31 2003

• Birthday Candles
• Conversion
• Delaying Tevilah
• Candles
• Tale of solika
• Use of Echad
• Nissim and Miracles
• Re: Nissim and Miracles
• Re: davai haser
• Re: Almond Growing
• Birthdays or candles?
• Re: Almond Growing
• Re: Halacha L'Moshe MiSinai
• Re: The Culture Wars: Jews Among the Nations
• Re: Words that have changed meanings
• Re: Almond Growing
• RE: Candles
• Re: Birthdays or candles?
• Re: blood on the Temple floor
• Re: Gilgul accord the Gro
• Re: Halacha L'Moshe MiSinai
• Re: Nigunim in Shul
• Birthdays or candles?
• Prefix she
• almonds

My brother-in-law (R' Chaim Lindenblatt of Atlanta) told me yesterday
that R' Mordechai Tendler holds birthday candles are mutar as long as
one does not make a wish.

Gil Student

From: Joelirich@aol.com
> A non-Jew comes to you and says "I accept the God of Abraham...Moses as
> the true God. I understand that Judiasm does not seek converts but does
> not forbid them. Does God prefer me to be a good non-Jew who keeps the 7
> mitzvot or would he prefer me to convert to keep 613 or is he ambivalent?"

RnTK wrote:
> G-d is not ambivalent; He has an individually-tailored plan for each
> of His creatures. Some of His creatures, however, are ambivalent,
> so life-altering decisions have to be made after due deliberation. One
> size does not fit all.

I paste a passage with Rashi imbedded from Zavachim 45b on top that
seems to speak to this point. Apologies if it does not transfer the
Hebrew well. It appears to clearly state that an avodah as a Jew is much
preferralbe to that of a non-jew.

M. Levin

[The attachment didn't work at all for me. It's in Unicode utf-8, if
that helps you set things up so you can read it. -mi]

אמר ליה רב הונא בריה דרב נתן לרב פפא: אלא מעתה (ויקרא כב)
[דבר אל אהרן ואל בניו וינזרו מקדשי בני ישראל ולא יחללו את שם קדשי] אשר הם מקדשים לי [אני ה'] (דכתיב גבי וינזרו) - הכי נמי הם ולא עובדי כוכבים (ותימא: דקדשי עובדי כוכבים אין חייבין עליהם משום טומאה לרבי יוסי? והא קאמר 'בכולן אני רואה להחמיר')?

אלא אמר רב אשי: אמר קרא: לרצון להם (גבי ציץ כתיב [בפסוק דלעיל, דכתיב בו 'להם': [שמות כח,לח:]), ועובדי כוכבים לאו בני הרצאה (להקב"ה) נינהו (שאינו מתרצה להם).

A month or two ago, we discussed on Areivim the permissibility of delaying
a wife's trip to the mikveh, for convenience or other reasons.

I heard tonight of a halacha relevant to this point: Chayei Adam 135:3
says that "m'dina", it is mutar to go to the mikveh on the night of
Tisha B'Av, and then gives arguments why not to go, despite the fact
that it is mutar to.

Of course, comparing this example to other examples is a difficult task,
and should not be undertaken lightly. (IOW: ask your rav.) The only
point I'm making is that just because one is capable of going, and is
halachically allowed to go, that does not automatically mean she is
*required* to go. There *may* be other relevant points to consider.

Akiva Miller

Posted by: gershon.dubin@juno.com
> OK, I'll be the neighborhood shaygetz:  what's wrong with birthday candles?

Just FYI: R. Blumenkranz shows that it arose as a pagan ritual of moon
worship- round cake representing the moon.

M. Levin

From: Sharon Vance <canito3@earthlink.net>
> My name is Sharon Vance and I am doing some research on haTsaddiqah
> Sol Hatchuel. I am reading R' Yosef Ben Naim's Sefer Malkhai Rabanan,
> specifically the maaseh about Solika.

Here are some details; this is a well known story and her grave has been
venerated by Moroccan Jews ever since.

The tale of Solika-the-Just (1817-1834)
Marc Eliany � All Rights Reserved

In all of Fez, and some say, even from one end of the Maghreb to the
other, there was no beauty to match Sol the graceful. She was barely
seventeen, some say only fifteen, when the son of the king, Abd-el-Rahim,
the "Servant-of-mercy" as some called him, heard of the Jewish belle
and summoned her to his lavish court. And when Sol appeared before
Abd-el-Rahim, he told her that in no time at all, he would be king and
his desire for her would make her queen!

-Oh, son of kings, 
Heir of prophets, 
How could a dhimi 
Wear a crown
In a castle of believers? Said Solika.

- Enchanted I am, 
By your charm, 
Bewitched - 
By your spell,
Oh uncle's daughter. 
Say: 
"Muhammad is your prophet. 
The Eternal is one." 
Replied the son of kings.

- Oh successor, 
Fortune maker, 
My faith is Sarah's, 
My head is yours to take, 
If you wish!

And so it was in eighteen hundred and thirty-four to the count of the
Romans, the lovely head was chopped and served on a golden platter to the
would-be-king. Some say, the sacrifice was necessary for the Eternal's
glory, for the one who witnesses all and pronounces right judgments!
<http://www.artengine.ca/eliany/html/jewishmoroccantales/alltales.htm>

M. Levin

MB wrote:
>  There are derashos about the use of "echad" rather than "rishon" at the
> end of the first day in Bereshis 1. However, this use of "echad" isn't
> rare....

> This is also a relevent conotation in shema, that echad not only refers to
> Yichud haBorei but also that "Hu rishon".

I agree but that meaning is only found when there is a set of numbers in
a sentence. In the Shema, I am not aware of a rishon who says anything
like that explanation; in fact, they say the opposite.

This is well discussed in my "With all your heart: The Shema in Jewish
liturgy, worship and life. (Can be found at targum.com or seforim stores).

M. Levin

On another forum, someone posted an interesting he'ara about the lists in Avos
5:5-6. It lead me to the following variant on his thoughts.

It would seem that Chazal use the word "neis" for things that can be
understood within teva, but are far too unlikely and fortuitous to be anything
but Yad H'.  Thus they serve as flags (nissim) of His Presence even within
other natural events. This is true of the 10 things in the beis hamiqdash are
called "nisim".

True violations of natural law are "devarim nivre'u bein hashemashos". Which
then leads back to our frequent discussion about the Ramban and when miracles
were created.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 The mind is a wonderful organ
micha@aishdas.org            for justifying decisions
http://www.aishdas.org       the heart already reached.
Fax: (413) 403-9905

On Mon, Jul 28, 2003 at 06:20:13PM -0400, Micha Berger wrote:
: On another forum, someone posted an interesting he'ara about the lists
: in Avos...

He replied to my variant, and thereby generated the following thought.

: It would seem that Chazal use the word "neis" for things that can be
: understood within teva, but are far too unlikely and fortuitous to
: be anything but Yad H'....
: True violations of natural law are "devarim nivre'u bein hashemashos"...

And note that we only say "Al haNissim" for the former, the latter get
Hallel.

-mi

On Sun, Jul 27, 2003 at 09:20:05AM +0200, Simi and David Peters wrote:
: I think the emphasis is on "haser" not "davai". Just as we break a
: glass under the chuppa zecher lachurban (implying hope for a better time
: when we will have the Mikdash again)...

I thought it was to be mema'eit simchah (like Mar brei deRavina's dish),
not to add hope.

My question was more why weddings and 7 berakhos bedavka get this call
for ge'ulah? I can see always adding it, or adding it during the three
weeks, but chasunos?

-mi

On Mon, Jul 28, 2003 at 11:08:08AM -0400, Gil Student forwarded from a
friend:
: that's shver. it's very very very very obvious from the context of the
: rabbis comments that it's the quickness not the earliness...

There are two issues: almonds in the pasuq, and in chazal.

RJBackon's citation of Genesius obviously has nothing to do with chazal.
And as both RGStudent and RETurkel wrote, Chazal are explicit that it
means speed.

As for the pasuq, Yirmiyahu 1 has "shaqeid Ani la'asoso" for something
HQBH was certainly warning He would do soon, but not necessarily rapidly.
As a verb, it seems to mean to keep watch, wake, or be insistant. See
also Eichah 1:14.

:                                              and this blooms in july
: or august for goodness sakes according to the websites.

Does this mean that "Tu biShvat Higi'ah" (which opens "Hashqadiah
porachas") does not fit the botony? I don't cite this as a Torah source,
but one of what chalutzim thought on the subject. They didn't grow
almonds?

So, I checked the California Board of Almonds. According to
<http://www.almondsarein.com/almonds/grow.cfm> hashqadiah porachas
be- January and February. They seem not to be harvestable until
October.

So the flowering of the sheqadiah is both rapid and early. Perhaps that's
the mashal, not the nut.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 The mind is a wonderful organ
micha@aishdas.org            for justifying decisions
http://www.aishdas.org       the heart already reached.
Fax: (413) 403-9905          

I have no access to the artscroll psakim. Is the objection to Birthday
candles of to birthday parties?

 From what I see, the idea of celebrating birthdays (yom huledet /
or in aramaic yom genisia) is found in only in relation to Goyim.
Anyone familiar with sources on Jewish birthdays?

Birthdays for Goyim:
Breshit 40 20, see Rashi and Targum Yonatan Ginasaih (birthday of Par'oh
of Yosef) Yalkut Shimoni Shmot 175 (also Par'oh but a different one -
with Moshe and Aharon Avoda Zara Perek 1 Mishna 2, gemara AZ 10a and
parallel Yerushalmi - (some discussion on the difference between yom
huledet and yom ginesia - but whole sugya refers to goyim celebrating )
Targum Esther 3 8 (Ahashverosh)

Birthdays for Jews:
7 Adar (Moshe Rabeinu) but that is also a yahrzeit
A secondary source (Eisenstein) tells me that Herods birthday celebration
is mentioned in the Christian Matthew , the primary source (Goyish )
and the King involved (Herod) probably wouldn't be too great of a ra'aya
for us

Dov A Bloom
dovb@netvision.net.il

Several posters have noted some apparent differences between the way the
Gemara described the growth of sh'kedim, and the way today's botanists
describe the growth of almonds.

Is it possible that the species known as "almonds" is not the same species
as the one known as "sh'kedim"? Or is it possible that they are the same,
but its nature has changed over the centuries?

These answers *are* offered for other questions. Am I out of line for
suggesting them for this question as well?

Akiva Miller

On Wed, Jul 23, 2003 at 03:57:04PM -0700, Ephi Sinowitz wrote:
: 2. Even if you would posit that a halacha l'moshe misinai cannot be
: derived from logic -- (Tosfos Bava Basra 101b s.v Hamotzi seems to support
: this; he says a "hilchasa gemiri la" would not make sense if the halacha
: could be based on reason.) there is no contradiction to to this from
: the gemara. The gemara is supporting the concept for nevuah of a chacham
: (daas torah?) by saying a chacham could "say a thing that turns out to be
: a halacha l'moshe misinai". In other words a chacham can intuit, through
: his nevuah, a halacha l'moshe misinai without the use of strict logic.

Which? Nevu'ah, meaning a gift from shamayim? (And I assume you mean
ru'ach haqodesh, as nevu'ah itself is limited to qetanim and shotim
bizman hazeh.) Or intuit, as in having a da'as Torah that allows for a
gefeel of what's din beyond relying on logic?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                     Life is complex.
micha@aishdas.org                    Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org                   The Torah is complex.
Fax: (413) 403-9905                                    - R' Binyamin Hecht

On Sun, Jul 20, 2003 at 10:36:52PM +0300, Akiva Blum wrote:
: >2. "Mamleches kohanim vegoy kadosh" implies that we stand in relation
: >to the rest of the nations of the world as kohanim to other shevatim.
: 
: Rashi translates kohanim as 'princes'. We are to be the princes of the
: world. We work for no-one else.

That's not how royalty works. To speak in Rashi's lashon, a feudal lord
not only reaped the profits of his serfs, he got power because he provided
them with land, laws, and a military (protection against listim).

Ki miTzion teitzei Torah udvar H' miYrushalaim is an explicit tzivui
(if one can use that word about a pasuq in na"kh) to teach the amim.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                     Life is complex.
micha@aishdas.org                    Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org                   The Torah is complex.
Fax: (413) 403-9905                                    - R' Binyamin Hecht

On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 01:17:18AM +0000, kennethgmiller@juno.com wrote:
: Or at least, it's pretty clear to *me* that grammar and usage changed
: over those years. At the very least, one can easily find words which are
: common in Navi, and relatively rare or missing in Chumash even though
: there are many contexts where Chumash *could* have used those words. (The
: example which jumps to my mind the most is alef-yod-nun.)

I don't recall seeing the "she-" prefix in chumash. At the very least,
"asher" is chosen over "she-" almost always, if not always.

In the reverse, a word that is used in chumash that you don't find in
na"kh is "hiw" ("hi" spelled hei-vav-alef), rather than the usual "hi".

And yet "higher" critics don't seem to be bothered by this. Is it because
they can't see beyond their own orthodoxy (while claiming this is a
failure of the religious, and they are too objective for such things),
or is it less muchrach than it seems?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                     Life is complex.
micha@aishdas.org                    Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org                   The Torah is complex.
Fax: (413) 403-9905                                    - R' Binyamin Hecht

On Mon, Jul 28, 2003 at 10:02:52PM -0400, kennethgmiller@juno.com wrote:
: Several posters have noted some apparent differences between the way the
: Gemara described the growth of sh'kedim, and the way today's botanists
: describe the growth of almonds.
: 
: Is it possible that the species known as "almonds" is not the same species
: as the one known as "sh'kedim"? Or is it possible that they are the same,
: but its nature has changed over the centuries?

Yes, they're both possible, but neither are necessary IMHO.

Almonds bloom in Jan or Feb, the fruit appears by early March. They are
therefore rapidly bearing trees, and Mr Dushman's song about Tu biShvat
makes sense even to farming chalutzim.

What threw people off (again, IMHO) is that the almond itself isn't
harvested until the fruit hardens (July), splits open (late Aug - Oct),
and the inside dries.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                     Life is complex.
micha@aishdas.org                    Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org                   The Torah is complex.
Fax: (413) 403-9905                                    - R' Binyamin Hecht

> Just FYI: R. Blumenkranz shows that it arose as a pagan ritual of moon
> worship- round cake representing the moon.

How does he show it? Does he bring primary sources? 

Akiva 

On 29 Jul 2003 at 2:09, Dov Bloom wrote:
>  From what I see, the idea of celebrating birthdays (yom huledet / or
> in aramaic yom genisia) is found in only in relation to Goyim. Anyone
> familiar with sources on Jewish birthdays?

The Arizal discusses birthdays, but I don't know where. It is brought
in the Sidur Beis Tefila in the list of aliya priorities in the order
of Shabbos Kriyas Ha'Torah.

The MB does not mention birthdays among the priorities he brings in
the Biur Halacha 136 s"v b'Shabbos v'Yom Tov. But he also refers to a
Sha'arei Ephraim, which bli neder I will try to remember to check.

-- Carl

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

Eli Turkel said:
>> I would come to the same conclusion I presume RET is hinting at... the art
>> of guzma didn't end with the nevi'im. There was some dam, the discussion
>> of chatzitzah could be literal.

> I would welcome a pshat that says the gemara is aggadic. However, the gemara
> implies that the height of the blood in the Temple on erev Pesach is the
> machloket tanaim. So if it is a guzma than there is no machloket! Are there
> achronim that say it is a guzma?

I don't know of any acharonim who say it's a guzma.

However, I don't understand your other objection. Why would a historical
argument be a more valid machloqes than one in the nimshal? Second, as
the guzma would never imply guilt on kesheirim, there can be a machloqes
about the halachic implications of the guzma as well.

> On the other side I saw in Meorot hadaf a persuh that lambs in those days
> were the size of our cows (this was with respect to semicha). Though they
> bring a medrash to that effect I would certainly accept that as a guzmah.

What do you mean by "though"? Recall the Rambam's warning about medrashim!
A medrash is no indication of literalness.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                     Life is complex.
micha@aishdas.org                    Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org                   The Torah is complex.
Fax: (413) 403-9905                                    - R' Binyamin Hecht

Me:
> Leshitaso, the nefesh is beheimis, and the ru'ach is where bechirah,
> machshavah, etc... reside.
>
> So, as I understood him, leshitaso, preferences that are not the effects of
> living in a mammal's brain do survive eternally (which probably excludes
> tastes in food), despite the fact that they are not nisgalgelim.

RML:
> I quote form the English translation of commentary to Yonah 1,6 by R. M.
> Schapiro, ArtScroll: Not only physical limbs face eternal death. The same
> fate awaits the lower components of the man's spiritual being - the bestial
> aspect of his nefesh and ruaach ("haguf vkol hashaikhiim aleah - nefesh
> vruach habeheimos". While R. MB translation is possible, it is not the
> simplest nor clearest way to learn, this in my opinion. The Otzar Acaris
> Hayomim and R. M. Schapiro understood it the same way as I did and so it
> seems from other writngs of the Gro as above.

I do not think that the ru'ach memalelah that "vayipach be'apav" is the
ru'ach beheimis he's referring to in Yonah. IMHO, the Gra uses this not
as an extra adjective, but as a reference to a subset. The elements of
nefesh that the ru'ach absorbed through hergel.

> Again, this explanaton of the Gro
> also explains their machlokes regarding which body of which gilgul comes up
> in techias hameisim. For the Gro, only the last for it is the only one with
> a full surviving nefesh and ruach. The Ari says -all bodies. Please see the
> previous post for details.

How would any body have a surviving nefesh unless the person didn't die
yet? I thought the Gra's problem was that each guf is associated with
a nefesh, and therefore many nefashos would compete for zivug with the
same neshamah.

In either case, your sevara for this machloqes works identically whether
it's the nefesh alone or the nefesh and the ru'ach that are transitory.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                     Life is complex.
micha@aishdas.org                    Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org                   The Torah is complex.
Fax: (413) 403-9905                                    - R' Binyamin Hecht

On Wed, Jul 23, 2003 at 03:57:04PM -0700, Ephi Sinowitz wrote: 
: 2. Even if you would posit that a halacha l'moshe misinai cannot be 
: derived from logic -- (Tosfos Bava Basra 101b s.v Hamotzi seems to support 
: this; he says a "hilchasa gemiri la" would not make sense if the halacha 
: could be based on reason.) there is no contradiction to to this from 
: the gemara. The gemara is supporting the concept for nevuah of a chacham 
: (daas torah?) by saying a chacham could "say a thing that turns out to be 
: a halacha l'moshe misinai". In other words a chacham can intuit, through 
: his nevuah, a halacha l'moshe misinai without the use of strict logic. 

RMB:
> Which? Nevu'ah, meaning a gift from shamayim? (And I assume you mean 
> ru'ach haqodesh, as nevu'ah itself is limited to qetanim and shotim 
> bizman hazeh.) Or intuit, as in having a da'as Torah that allows for a 
> gefeel of what's din beyond relying on logic? 

Nevuah is what the gemara is discussing (B"B 12a) - "From the day the
bais hamikdosh was destroyed nevuah was taken from the neviim but not from
the chachamim" One can argue that this nevuah, ruach hakodesh, intuition,
daas torah or gefeel are all one and the same thing. Intuition (daas torah)
doesn't exclude ruach hakodesh.

-ephi

I asked RCSG about his comment about how he chooses niggunim to use from
the amud. He wrote, "My guidelines are the 4 M's: Mode (nusach), Mood,
Meaning and Min Ha Mikdosh (not from secular sources)."

I didn't understand his identification of mode with nusach. Mode is a
musical term, somewhat more general than that of minor vs major key. For
example, much of Klezmer music is written in Fregish, a heimisher variant
of Frigian mode. It's not in the major of minor key that western music
is usually written for. Which is why you can recognize that "something"
about Klezmer music regardless of the mood or rhythm of the piece.

I also wanted clarigication about the difference between "mood" and
"meaning".

Minus personal material (we're mishapachah) here was his reply.

-mi

From: Sherwood Goffin <chaz@lss.org>
> Two melodies in the same mode are just that (same mode). They would be
> in the same musical "nusach" only if they matched the mode of the nusach
> in which paragraphs they were being used. The term nusach should only
> be used in context of tefilloh, and everything else is subsumed under it.

> As far as "mood' and "meaning", the former refers to the regesh of
> the melody and how it affects one emotionally; the latter is simply
> the translation.

Regrading birthday celebrations by Jews, I recall that the Chasam Sofer
says that it is a goyishe minhag and that this is why Avrohom made a
celebration at the time of weaning. However, among the sefardim some
communities did celebrate birthday and I think that the Ben Ish Chai
refers to it somewhere in reference to the same verses in Chumash.

Parenhtetically, I remeber than the Yerushalmi on Rosh Hashana says thr
the Amaleikim selected soldiers whose birthday it was that day so that
their mazal is strong and that Yehoshua was chosen to lead Bnei Yisroel
because he could also select Jewish soldiers whosew birthday it was on
that day of battle. BL'N, need to check sources to provide chapter and
verse; no access at this tiem.

M. Levin

> I don't recall seeing the "she-" prefix in chumash. At the very least,
> "asher" is chosen over "she-" almost always, if not always.

There is "bshagam hu basar" end of parshas bareishis which is like
"ad shakamti devorah".

The real issue, as I see it, is exostence of dialects and iso-usage belts
through the entire Israelite and even surrounding Semitic nations. One
notes that the Arameisms tend to be present in descritptions of Northern
events and when the neviim speak to foreign nations - ex. Yirmia 10. I
will, BL'N tommorow cite a paper that makes this point.

It would also nicely explain some peculiar Masoretic readings and some
Kri and Ksiv, as expressions of dialectical variation which the mesorah
or the ksiv preserved.

As an example, the song of devorah includes multiple doublings of
syllable in words which may be a dailaectical peculiarity. Of course,
it could also simply be a poetic usage.

M. Levin

Here's what Nogah Hareuveni says about almonds in "Nature in Our Biblical
Heritage":

The almond is a beautiful tree...Green buds swell after the flowers
bloom, and the young branches quickly develop. *At the same time,
the embryonic almonds begin to form, while the calyxes of the flowers
are still visible. The almond tree is the first of the fruit trees
to emerge from winter dormancy in Israel, and it passes very rapidly
through several beautiful stages of growth.* This characteristic made
it the subject of much admiration.

Isn't it possible that "gomer et perotav" refers to the formation of
the embryonic almonds--not the final ripe product which we harvest?
If I'm not mistaken, other fruit bearing trees lose their blossoms when
the fruit starts forming. Not the almond, apparently.

I don't have time to check on the Bar Ilan CD right now, (my library time
is running out for today) but if your friend has one, he might want to
see if the phrase "gomer et perotav" elsewhere refers to fully formed
ripe fruit, or something else.

Kol tuv,
Simi Peters

*********************


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