Avodah Mailing List

Volume 11 : Number 041

Thursday, July 17 2003

• blood on the Temple floor
• Saying alenu with the tzibbur
• hard cheeses
• Re: Work
• Re: Conversion
• Self-Awareness
• Defining anivus, redux
• Re: Words that have changed meanings
• Re: Halacha Mosheh misinai
• re: Hard Cheeses
• An Xian by any other name..
• Re: An Xian by any other name..
• Re: Conversion
• Re: Conversion
• The Culture Wars: Jews Among the Nations
• re: Saying alenu with the tzibbur
• Gilgul
• shmitta wine
• existential angst

In a recent daf yomi (Zevachim 35) the sages state that on erev Pesach
the blood on the floor of the Temple reached the priests knees. To bring
the wood to the alter they walked through the blood to show their love
of G-d and their service. For other avodahs they walked on high stones
so that the blood would not be a chatzizah and soil their clothing.

I am puzzled by several aspects of this gemara.

1. Blood being a liquid seeks its lowest level. So any high level of
blood in the Azarah would immediately descend into the Ezrat Nashim
through the Nikanor gate and from there into the entire har habayit
which was even lower.

2. On Erev pesach we are taught that the Temple area was full with
Korbanot and so the priests were lined up and only handed the blood from
one to another until it reached the Temple.
Were they also standing on high ground?
Where were the animals schected on high ground or on the bloody floor?
Where were all the owners of the animals who brought them to the Temple -
were they also alll blood filled?
I assume that the levites who sang Hallel were on a high Bimah as were
those that played the instruments.

In general this gemara is quite unclear as to where there was high blood
and where there were high stones to walk around the bloody spots and
how far this scene extended.
Remember that the Temple area was basically open, though surrounded by
a wall there were several gates which were normally open.

kol tuv,
Eli Turkel

Az men redt shoen vegen Alenu,

We say Alenu after kiddush levana (one reason) to show that we are not
ovdim to the levana, but praising its Creator.

The mashma'us of the Biur Halacha on this is that it is sufficient to
say the first paragraph, and not necessarily al ken nekaveh. (BTW al
ken or ve'al ken). Ayen sham.

Has anyone seen this done lema'aseh (except as I mentioned above, as a
short cut)? If not why not?

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

From: "cdz"
> Could anyone shed some light on the nature of swiss and other "hard"
> cheeses? I recall hearing that the need to wait 6 hours is not
> cut-and-dry for swiss cheese, but depends on the process involved in
> its production. Is there some rule of thumb to use for this...

Last year I heard a tape of a shiur re Shovuosú given by Rav M M
Weissmandl shlit'a of Monsey.
In it he explained the differences of the various cheeses.
Try to get a copy.(I have long forgotten the details...)

SBA

At 12:29 PM 6/29/03 -0700, Harry Maryles wrote:
> Daniel Eidensohn <yadmoshe@012.net.il> wrote:
>>> There is a Yireim (IIRC)that claims that the 39
>>> Melachos were basically made up by Moshe Rabbenu himself... that God put
>>> in MR's hands the task of defining what Melacha is and that it was
>>> indeed "man" that chose to link Meleches Shabbos to the Melachos of the
>>> Mishkan.

>>Would greatly appreciate knowing where the Yireim says this. I couldn't find
>>anything with a search of Bar Ilan CD.

>As I said, I didn't see it. RYGB had mentioned it to us during one of his 
>DY Shiurim, probably during Meseches Shabbos. Perhaps RYGB can point you 
>to the source.

I recall citing some Rishon who said this (or something similar), but
I do not recall which one, and my Yereim (as well as most of my other
seforim) are currently packed away. Remind me in a couple of months!

Kol Tuv,
YGB
ygb@aishdas.org  or  ygb@yerushalmionline.org
essays, tapes and seforim at: www.aishdas.org;
on-line Yerushalmi shiurim at www.yerushalmionline.org

R' David Riceman said:
>> I would think that since we're noheig / are chayav to disuade potential
>> converts, we should push Noachide observance.

> I had a colleague (in New Jersey) who had this shailah halacha l'maaseh. He
> conferred with his Rav, and they decided that the closest viable Noahide
> community was in Texas and therefore not a reasonable option....

First, a language point -- which is significant only in that it feeds into my
next issue. Unless you know of a community of descendents of Og, every
community is Noachide. Belashon chazal, a ben Noach is anyone who isn't a ben
Yisrael, still the vast majority of communities. What we're discussing is a
shomeir 7 mitzvos benei Noa'ch (S7MBN).

Second: Historically, the question was whether a member of some religious
group qualified as a S7MBN. Such as the Rambam's discussion of Islam or
RYEmden on early Christianity. The idea of Noachidism as a religion or
religious community was not raised until relatively recently.

So, if a Christian approaches you with this dilemma, do you need to find him a
Noachide community? Or, do you simply need to help him find a church that
conforms to the 7 mitzvos (beli cheshash shutfus)?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 I slept and dreamt that life was joy.
micha@aishdas.org            I awoke and found that life was duty.
http://www.aishdas.org       I worked and, behold -- duty is joy.
Fax: (413) 403-9905                            -  Rabinranath Tagore

Pretty central to the Rambam's theology is that HQBH knows Himself and is
that Knowledge (Yesodei 2:10).

I realized during the commute home that this gives a whole vehalakhta
bidrachav imperative to hislamdus and cheshbon hanefesh.

-mi

In the past, I expanded upon the Alter of Slabodka's definition of
anivus: the knowledge of the gap between what we are, and what we could
be. Awareness of the gap between "va'anochi afar va'eifer" and "bishvili
nivra ha'olam".

Alan Morinis pointed me to a gemara that I found enlightening on this
subject. Someone who sticks to a maqom kavu'ah until yom moso will
be called an anav. RAM takes this to imply a translation of anivus --
taking up your proper space; not more, and not less (as in the one who
can and should lead, but refuses the burden).

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 I slept and dreamt that life was joy.
micha@aishdas.org            I awoke and found that life was duty.
http://www.aishdas.org       I worked and, behold -- duty is joy.
Fax: (413) 403-9905                            -  Rabinranath Tagore

>For those interested in such matters, the sefer Tosefes
>Brocho from the baal Torah Temima on Parshas Korach
>[p.121] brings a list of words/phrases in LHK that have
>changed their meanings over the years...

Keep in mind that the Torah Temimah was an advocate of Modern Hebrew
(or whatever was being discussed at the time that would eventually
become Modern Hebrew) and used these as proofs that the language can
change over time and be modernized.

Gil Student

Joel Rich wrote:
>My understanding was that the hm"m could not
>be derived by logic or else why would hkb"h tell
>it to MRA"H as a msora(eg see sukkah 28.)

I do not think that this is correct. Rather, it is a matter of
Maimonidean terminology. According to the Rambam's hakdamah to PhM,
there are a number of types of Halachah Le-Moshe Mi-Sinai that are not
called such. For example, a halachah that we know from mesorah but
can also darshen it from a passuk would not technically be called, in
Rambam's terminology, HLMM, even though it is an halachah that we know
as a mesorah from Sinai. Similarly, an halachah that we can deduce via
the 13 midos is not technically an HLMM even though we actually know the
halachah because it is a mesorah from Sinai. According to the Rambam,
only those halachos for which we cannot find any base, neither in text
nor in logic, we label as HLMM. Other types of halachos might still
be known only through mesorah but since we can, ex post facto, find
derivations for those halachos we do not classify them as HLMM.

Gil Student

R' M. Levin wrote <<< ... it refers to a cheese that is aged at least
6 months (see nosei keilim). According to one of my rebbeim who is
personally involved in the field of Kashrus, no commercially available
cheese in the US meets these criteria. >>>

A few weeks ago I was at the Jerusalen Two pizza restaurant (Bway &
38, NYC), which is under the OU, and there were several letters posted
throughout the place, on OU stationery, stating that all the Parmesan
Cheese used there *is* aged long enough to require the 6-hour wait. The
letters did state how long the aging had been for, which IIRC was *ten*
months.

Over the years, I have heard that other hard cheeses (such as Swiss)
are "aged" artificially and for less than 6 months, but that Parmesan
has always been the exception.

Akiva Miller

lifted from recent areivim chit chat:
<<..bono lawyers who are helping the blacks are conservative Xians...>>, 
<<..I remember that my son's experience in scouts was indeed much more 
x-tian influenced ..>>

I've long noted the reluctance of many writers to deploy standard english
when referencing matters christian. without dwelling on the irony of
the employment of a similar orthographic device by some -- perhaps by
the same? -- people to reference god ("g-d") i'm curious just why they
do so. Xian in particular sounds like a linguistic refugee from a star
trek outtake.

Mechy Frankel			H: (301) 593-3949
michael.frankel@osd.mil		W: (703) 845-2357
mfrankel@empc.org
michaeljfrankel@hotmail.com

OTOH, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

I write "Xian" for the same reason that I write "OTOH".

-mi

Micha Berger wrote:
> Second: Historically, the question was whether a member of some religious
> group qualified as a S7MBN. Such as the Rambam's discussion of Islam or
> RYEmden on early Christianity. The idea of Noachidism as a religion or
> religious community was not raised until relatively recently.

Again I refer you to Professor Feldman's book. He claims there were such
communities in the Roman Empire both pre-hurban habayith and during the
Rabbinic period.

I agree that there were no such communities during the times of the
Rishonim (though one can quibble about the Mandaeans).

David Riceman

A relevant source is Tos A"Z 10b regarding Antoninus. The tosafos says
that Antoninus ultimately secretly converted; apparently the svoro that
he could do more for Jews as a Non-Jew does not apply.

M. Levin

In a message dated 7/17/03, hjweiss@panix.com writes [to Areivim -mi]:
> I know of Kol Yisroel Areivim zeh lozeh, but where is our responsibility
> to non Jew from?

1. "Ve'avorcha mevorachecha...venivrachu vecha kol mishpechos ha'adamah."
Hashem's blessing to those who are good to us implies that WE have a
duty to be good to those who are good to us.

2. "Mamleches kohanim vegoy kadosh" implies that we stand in relation
to the rest of the nations of the world as kohanim to other shevatim.

3. "Ohr lagoyim" likewise implies responsibility to benefit goyim with
our wisdom, and what is "our" wisdom? It is monotheism and Torah.

4. The Rambam saying that we were scattered throughout the world in
order to teach the whole world the sheva mitzvos--a task we failed to
accomplish when we were in our own land (and one of the reasons we were
punished with galus). (I am not certain it was the Rambam--if it was
someone else, I would be happy to be corrected.)

5. Messianic statements in Tanach about how the whole world will one
day be filled with the knowledge of Hashem, implying that Hashem cares
about all the people in the world, not only the Jews.

6. Avraham davening for Sedom, Yonah being sent to Nineveh, the angels
at the Yam Suf being told not to sing shira while Egyptians were dying,
etc, etc, etc. Again, the message conveyed throughout our literature is
that Jews care about ALL of G-d's creatures.

Toby Katz

R' Joel Rich asked <<< Someone asked me for the source of saying alenu
with the tzibbur if you're there even if you're not davening with them.
It's mentioned in Kitzur S"A 17:10 along with "shaar dvarim shehatzibbur
omrim" which includes Shma(1st and foremost) and tehilla ldavid and even
piyutim. >>>

I thank R' Carl Sherer for citing <<< MB 65:9 (also MA 65:3) >>>, but
I am extremely intrigued by RJR's question: <<< Given the inclusion of
tehilla ldavid, what does shehatzibbur omrim exclude? >>>

Indeed, if Ashrei and Alenu *are* "things which the tzibur says",
then what *isn't*??? Is U'va L'Tzion or Mizmor L'Sodah any less of a
"tzibur thing" than Ashrei?

Clutching at straws, I began to wonder if the Acharonim chanted Ashrei
in unison like I did in Talmud Torah. Or if they sang Alenu every day,
like we do on Shabbos morning. Any other thoughts?

L'maaseh, though, I'm satisfied to see what the Rosh Mimetics (a.k.a
Aruch HaShulchan) wrote in 65:6, at the end:
<<< Know that there are those who want to say that anything that the
tzibur says - like Tehila l'David - is answered with them (MA 3). We
don't do that, except for by "Shema Yisrael", and in Aleinu when we say
"Vaanachnu kor'im" one has to bow with them just like at Modim, so that
it shouldn't appear that the whole people is bowing and he's not bowing.
And some have the minhag to also say Aleinu along with the tzibur. >>>

Akiva Miller

Someone has posted a reference to Gro's shitah in gilgul.

He seems to hold that nefesh and ruach do not descend in gilugl but
die with each body (Tikkunei Zohar Chadash 38,2, See also commentary to
Yonah 1,6)). It seems leshitoso in Mishle 14,1 that only the nefesh and
ruach of th last guf will be resurrected in techias hameisim. Presumably,
this is because the other bodies' nefesh and ruach are lost with previou
gilglim. The ari seems to disagree with both points. See Otsros Achris
Hayomim ch 18 and and 16.

The implicatons of this for personal immortality are substantial. I always
wondered why personal preferences, such as liking eggs for breakfast,
and also most other personal defining characteristics that arose in
response to particular temporal events and circumstances, deserve to
survive eternally. According to the Gro, as properties of mefesh and
ruach, perhaps they do not whereas Ari may argue.

M. Levin

[Bounced from an Areivim submission. -mi]

My first attempt to send you something about this seems to have been
lost in cyberspace:
>A dear relative returned today from Eretz Yisrael with a 
>gift of a bottle of wine from the winery he had toured. The 
>reliability of the hechsher would seem to be a rather moot 
>question. 

>The front of the label clearly says "Otzar Beis Din 5761", 
>and the back (after several lines about how the winery took 
>care to follow the Beis Din's instructions) says in 
>boldface: "Zman HaBiur: Erev Pesach 5762". 

>First question: I can't think of any heter to drink this 
>wine. Can anyone else? 

Well I have a teshuva (not very readable print but in tiff format if
you want a copy) on the letterhead of Rav Avraham Dov Oyerbach who holds
that so long as the wine is in the hands of the beis din at zman biur,
not obligation of biur applies and that after that time it is then mutar.

If your wine is either Golan or from over haYarden there are additional
grounds to be lenient, as we have seen a teshuva attached to a bottle of
Golan wine arguing that because shmitta there was only ever d'rabbanan,
export to chutz l'aretz is permitted (and hence presumably no biur
problem). Rav Oyerbach says this explicitly, citing the Rosh as holding
there is no din biur for over haYarden.

Note that Rav Oyerbach concludes his teshuva by saying "achrei hapesach
[sman biur] l'kukei alma mutar l'chotzei l'chutz l'aretz).

>Second question: How does one do biur on *wine*? Open the 
>bottle and let it sit until it turns to vinegar? 

Well Rabbi Feldman of Munks apparently told a friend to pour such wine
down the sink (I believe that Rav Feldman was never shown the teshuva
of Rav Oyerbach, I do not know if he would have changed his psak if he
had been shown it).

Regards
Chana

From: David Riceman <dr@insight.att.com>
> Jonathan Baker wrote:
>> "He who has no son, has no share in the world to come" (Zohar Pinhas 215)

>> How am I supposed to deal with a line like that?  Even aside from the
>> personal pain,

> The personal pain is irrelevant. That, for the Zohar, is how the world
> works and you might as well get used to it.

My question: does the Zohar mean "no children" or literally NO SON?

BTW there are a lot of answers to RJB's question besides "you might
as well get used to it." Just one: Gemara says that one who teaches
another person's son Torah is like his father. Somewhere or other--T"C,
supply reference for me please--it says that if someone taught you
one halacha or even one letter of Torah, he is like your rebbe. So at
some level anyone can have a son by teaching a kid some Torah. Also,
you can support Torah financially. That would probably count too.

Lots more answers, something I thought about a lot during the years of
my own infertility saga. Maybe one of these days.

Toby Katz

*********************


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