Avodah Mailing List

Volume 11 : Number 040

Monday, July 14 2003

• Re: Conversion
• conversion
• Returning the Sefer Torah to the Aron
• al menat
• Re: al menat
• Re: Conversion
• hard cheeses
• Chumash Keser Yonoson
• Fw: More on Gilgul
• Saying alenu with the tzibbur
• HArd Cheeses
• Re: Halacha Mosheh misinai
• Re: Nigunim in Shul
• Re: Saying alenu with the tzibbur
• Words that have changed meanings
• Re: Conversion

R' Joel Rich asked: <<< A non-Jew comes to you and says ... does God
prefer me to be a good non-Jew who keeps the 7 mitzvot or would he prefer
me to convert to keep 613 or is he ambivalent?"

I think "ambivalent" is a great word for this situation. It's not that
HaShem doesn't care, but that there are very strong considerations in
both directions. On the one hand, an influx of foreigners is a "sapachas"
to Yisrael. But on the other hand, one who wants to be under the wings
of the Shechina, how can we refuse him?

I think this is an example of the sort of shaalah where a rav can guide
the individual, but the final psak must be made only by the individual
himself. How strong is his desire for dvekus to Kavyachol? And how
sure is he that his kiyum of 613 will match his current seven? There is
definitely a place in the scheme of things for friendly Bnei Noach, and
if doing that is enough to quench his thirst for dveykus, then that's
the right thing to do. But if it will not quench his thirst, then his
role in this world is to reattach his pintele yid to its Source. And
only he can tell which is which.

I look forward to see what other ideas will be posted.

Akiva Miller

> A non-Jew comes to you and says "I accept the God of Abraham...Moses as
> the true God. I understand that Judiasm does not seek converts but does
> not forbid them. Does God prefer me to be a good non-Jew who keeps the 7
> mitzvot or would he prefer me to convert to keep 613 or is he ambivalent?"
Sender: owner-avodah@aishdas.org
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Reply-To: avodah@aishdas.org

Wouldn't the answer to this question depend in part on the person
involved? That is not to say that G-d is ambivalent, but that there
are different "true" answers for different people. One of the factors,
for example, might be how consistently careful about shmirat mitzvot
a person might be expected to be. Or what the individual's strongest
identification is. Or what their kishkes are saying.

Kol tuv,
Simi Peters

From: kennethgmiller@juno.com
<<So my question is this, when people say Uvnucho Yomar early, is
it simple absent-mindedness, or is there some logic there which I'm
unaware of?>>

I do that, as well as other "short-cuts" when, as often happens,
I can't keep up any other way.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

RMB writes:
>Personally, I would want a peshat that also addresses why the mishnah says
>"al menas shelo leqabeil peras" rather than "shelo al menas". The mishnah
>is saying that one should do mitzavos for the sake of not getting a peras

The following is by no means a peshat; neither should it be seen as
precluding such a peshat. It is merely be-geder clarification. I'm not
sure if RMB was basing himself on some of the material I collected below,
but as they are not easily accessible to most, perhaps it was just faulty
memory...or me-ein nitnabe ve-lo yada mah nitnabe. :)

Most printed mishnayot (including the Avot printed in the Vilna Shas) as
well as siddurim with PA do have it as "she-lo al menat le-kabel peras".
It appears this way in the usual Avot deRabbi Natan perek 5, as well as in
the quotation from PA in ADRN version B perek 10. Thus it appears as well
in Avodah Zarah 19a (Vilna ed as well as the famous Munich manuscript).

However, most authoritative manuscripts of the mishnah (including
Cambridge; Kaufmann; Genizah; Paris; Parma as well as many others) as
well as 2 important manuscripts of the gemara AZ (Paris 1337; JTS 15)
and the expansion on the quotation in ADRN B perek 10 have it as "al
menat she-lo...."

[One genziah ms deletes the entire line from ele...peras; another 2 mss
delete only the words "al menat".]

By the way, the phrase "al menat she-lo..." appears in other contexts
in the gemara 26 times, 7 of which have an infinitive following
(al menat she-lo le...) [cf. mss readings which have 164 and 34
respectively.] Whereas the phrase "she-lo al menat" occurs, outside
of the AZ citation, nowhere else in Vilna and only one place in mss
[at Shab 31b "she-lo al menat li-venot" where Vilna has "soter al menat
li-venot she-lo bi-mekomo"].

Weight of evidence seems to favor "al menat she-lo" but makom hinihu
le-darshan li-derosh.

Yisrael Dubitsky

On Fri, Jul 11, 2003 at 12:36:13PM -0400, Yisrael Dubitsky wrote:
: >Personally, I would want a peshat that also addresses why the mishnah says
: >"al menas shelo leqabeil peras" rather than "shelo al menas". The mishnah
: >is saying that one should do mitzavos for the sake of not getting a peras

...
: Most printed mishnayot (including the Avot printed in the Vilna Shas) as
: well as siddurim with PA do have it as "she-lo al menat le-kabel peras".

But not Mechon Mamre, which is what got me started looking at
the suject. See <http://www.mechon-mamre.org/b/h/h49.htm>.

...
: Weight of evidence seems to favor "al menat she-lo" but makom hinihu
: le-darshan li-derosh.

Although I thought my comment stands: there is far more liderosh
with the "al menas shelo" version.

Li nir'eh someone decided that the other version was more logical and
must have been correct. Or, they copied what they expected to see,
rather than what they saw. So it makes the mishnah repetitive? It's
by far not the only repetitive mishnah.

:-)BBii
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org            you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org       You light a candle.
Fax: (413) 403-9905             - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l

On Sun, Jul 06, 2003 at 11:33:06AM -0400, Joelirich@aol.com wrote:
: A non-Jew comes to you and says "I accept the God of Abraham...Moses as
: the true God. I understand that Judiasm does not seek converts but does
: not forbid them. Does God prefer me to be a good non-Jew who keeps the 7
: mitzvot or would he prefer me to convert to keep 613 or is he ambivalent?"

I would think that since we're noheig / are chayav to disuade potential
converts, we should push Noachide observance.

But I assume part of the question is which is better for the person, and
not just which is literally what you should recommend. Perhaps you're
supposed to disuade people because it's only better for someone who is
determined enough to withstand the counter-argument.

The notes I took while readin Avodah during the bus ride home also raised
the questions of what's the sarpachas and (as implied by the previous
paragraph) the case-by-case factors. So let me throw in a ZGG to the
two posts I just approved to the list (they should appear shortly before
this one in the digest).

In any case, you can sell them on Noachide observance as a first step.
Conversion takes a while. Let them try being a good Noachide and see if
that's not enough for them. It can either be a final state or half-way
house, they don't have to decide in advance.

In RSRH's worldview, the ideal person in an observant Noachide. Yahadus
exists to create that mamleches kohanim to guarantee as many ideal people
as possible.

This is why he considers 7, which is the chol (6) plus the sanctity
inherent in the world (the 7th), to be representative of completion,
whereas the Jewish people are 8 (milah, Shemini Atzeres, techeiles,
etc...)

So the advantage isn't necessarily to the individual but to humanity --
who can clearly use more kohanim.

Your question touches on the dialectic between universalism and
particularlism.

:-)BBii
-mi

--
Micha Berger                 When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org            you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org       You light a candle.
Fax: (413) 403-9905             - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l

Could anyone shed some light on the nature of swiss and other "hard"
cheeses? I recall hearing that the need to wait 6 hours is not
cut-and-dry for swiss cheese, but depends on the process involved in
its production. Is there some rule of thumb to use for this, regarding
Haolam or Miller's for example?

--
Kol Tuv,
CDZ

Our Shul recently purchased a set of Chumash Keser Yonoson - published
about 5 years ago in Jerusalem.

It has the Targum Yonoson with a LHK translation.

I am no great linguist but would like to ask those that know..

On "Lemaan" [eg Tizkeru] the TY says "Min Biglall".
Our translater translates that back as..."Min Biglall:!

Why is that more LHK [if indeed that is LHK] than going back to the
original 'Lemaan"?

Bichall it seems to me that this work could do some editing and
clearing up. EG I would say that about 60-70% of TY [where he doesn't
add any chiddushim of his own and just translates the Torah into Aramaic]
doesn't any
translation -
JUST LOOK INTO THE CHUMASH!

[eg Is it really neccesary to translate Vayomer Hashem el Moshe Le'emor
as Vayomer Hashem LeMoshe Le'emor?]


But I wouldn't mind hearing fom others who have seen this edition.

SBA

[Forwarded by RSBA. -mi]

Finally got my hands on the Tshuvas Ha Rosh re gilgul. It is not
in old editions at all, but in a section at the end comprising new
(unpublished?) tshuvos.

It is indeed number 70. A younger relative puts forward an argument
in favour of gilgul to the Rosh who proceeds to demolish it, and states
that gilgul is contrary to common sense.

He then concludes by saying that 'im kabbolloh hi, nekabbel'.

This is the same expression that ibn Kreskas uses a generation or so
later. I also today came across a Gro to Mishle 14:- (don't have it in
front of me) explaining the verse according to gilgul.

Someone asked me for the source of saying alenu with the tzibbur if
you're there even if you're not davening with them. It's mentioned
in Kitzur S"A 17:10 along with "shaar dvarim shehatzibbur omrim" which
includes Shma(1st and foremost) and tehilla ldavid and even piyutim.

1.Does anyone know if this is brought down in s"a or m"b?
2. Given the inclusion of tehilla ldavid, what does shehatzibbur omrim
exclude?

KT
Joel Rich

> Could anyone shed some light on the nature of swiss and other "hard"
> cheeses? I recall hearing that the need to wait 6 hours is not
> cut-and-dry for swiss cheese, but depends on the process involved in
> its production. Is there some rule of thumb to use for this, regarding
> Haolam or Miller's for example?

I learned in my Yoreh Deah days that it refers to a cheese that is aged
at least 6 months (see nosei keilim). According to one of my rebbeim
who is personally onvovled in the field of Kashrus, no commercially
available chees in the US meets these criteria.

M. Levin

On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 07:09:12AM -0400, Joelirich@aol.com wrote:
: The gemora(BB 12.) in the inyan of chacham adif mnavi discusses nvuah
: by a chacham and proves its existence from the fact that a Talmid Chacham
: could be mcaaven with a raeson to a halacha moshe misinai.

I was thinking, though, that lefi haRambam, a HlMmS, even if deducable,
would still be free from machloqes.

Which then lead me to think about the Rihal's statement (in the Kuzari I)
about the advantage of mesorah over philosophy. For every philosophical
argument proving X, there are clever philosophers than can prove that X is
false. Perhaps one can say similarly that for every good sevara for some
shitah, there exists the ability to provide a sevara listor. Therefore,
even not lefi haRambam, one would need a HlMmS.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 "And you shall love H' your G-d with your whole
micha@aishdas.org            heart, with your entire soul, with all you own."
http://www.aishdas.org       Love is not two who look at each other,
Fax: (413) 403-9905          It is two who look in the same direction.

Chazzan Sherwood Goffin:
>Today, we have to be careful not to 
>use nigunim where they don't belong, and not to erase the nusach as a 
>result. Some think it is now "frumer" to not sing nigunim, and that is a bit
>of hisnagdut. Nigunim are part of "Zeh Keli V'Anveyhu". We just have
>to use seychel. My guidelines are the 4 M's: Mode (nusach), Mood,
>Meaning and Min Ha Mikdosh (not from secular sources). Incidently,
>many of the favorite KAJ melodies are these aforementioned 
>compositions of The Reform - Lewandowski, Sulzer, et al. I guess we "kashered"
>them over the last century and one-half by using them in Avodas 
>Hakodesh.

Thank you very much for your response. It was very informative. A comment
though - which brings me back to one of my questions - I don't believe
it is simply a frumkeit that certain Shuls and Yeshivos will put limits
on what is sung and what is not. They may feel that just as one cannot
change the basic nusach, as you said, one cannot put certain parts of the
tefilos to melodies. There is presumably a strong Mesorah to the nusach
of such pieces as Kail Adon and Lecha Dodi and putting them to popular
melodies may be seen as a Pirtzah. Such Pirtzos may be okay for the sake
of Kiruv, as was the case in the YI movement, but maybe those who do
not need that type of Kiruv should stick to the traditional nusach. 'Zeh
Kaili V'anvaihu' can be a slippery slope and Mesorah should be used as a
model for what is an appropriate enhancement of the Mitzvos. This would
bring into question the recent popularity of the Carlebach Minyan in
non-kiruv settings. Of course, the argument is that that's also kiruv.
Even though the congregants are all shomer shabbos, the routine is made
lebedig and geshmak. Nonetheless, it may detract from the importance of
Mesorah and maybe the dignity of the Mikdash Me'at.

- Mordechai Dixler

On 13 Jul 2003 at 9:39, Joelirich@aol.com wrote:
> Someone asked me for the source of saying alenu with the tzibbur if
> you're there even if you're not davening with them. It's mentioned in
> Kitzur S"A 17:10 along with "shaar dvarim shehatzibbur omrim" which
> includes Shma(1st and foremost) and tehilla ldavid and even piyutim.
> 
> 1.Does anyone know if this is brought down in s"a or m"b?

MB 65:9 (also MA 65:3). 

-- Carl

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son, 
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much. 

For those interested in such matters, the sefer Tosefes Brocho from
the baal Torah Temima on Parshas Korach [p.121] brings a list of
words/phrases in LHK that have changed their meanings over the years -
some diametrically opposite to their original pshat.

Among the list is

Meharsayich umachrivayich mimeich yetzu
Am Ho'oretz
Beis Am
Baal Chov
Tzaneh Molei Safra
Chesed
Kaleis [he goes on a bit about saying it on Shabbos etc 'levorech
    le'alei ulekleis']

Ayin Shom.

SBA

Micha Berger wrote:
>: A non-Jew comes to you and says "I accept the God of Abraham...Moses as
>: the true God. I understand that Judiasm does not seek converts but does
>: not forbid them. Does God prefer me to be a good non-Jew who keeps the 7
>: mitzvot or would he prefer me to convert to keep 613 or is he ambivalent?"

> I would think that since we're noheig / are chayav to disuade potential
> converts, we should push Noachide observance.

I had a colleague (in New Jersey) who had this shailah halacha l'maaseh.
He conferred with his Rav, and they decided that the closest viable
Noahide community was in Texas and therefore not a reasonable option.
Basically they considered it impossible to live a religious life without
a likeminded community. He encouraged conversion.

OTOH the Hillel Rabbi when I was in college had a similar shailah (with
a Protestant Minister) and he discouraged conversion on the (surprising,
to me at least) grounds that the minister could do more good for the
Jews as a Christian minister than as a convert.

Both stories are third hand, and therefore not particularly reliable.

Professor Feldman has a long and interesting section in his book on
"Jews and Gentiles in the Classical World" about God-Fearers as a halfway
house between paganism and full conversion. The impression I got was
that Noahism was viable even then only with the active encouragement of
the Jewish community, and only short term (1 generation).

David Riceman

*********************


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