Avodah Mailing List

Volume 10 : Number 073

Sunday, December 8 2002

• Time zone candle lighting
• Re: Time zone candle lighting
• Lack of candles
• Re: Lack of candles
• Re:Silk-Screened Sifrei Torah
• RE: Kiddush
• Re: dibre Torah be-loshan Bnei Adam
• Re: Adon Olam
• Re: donkeys
• Re: women and chanukiyot (take advantage of everything that is mutar)
• Re: women and chanukiyot (Wife making ha'moitzi)
• Women and Kiddush
• Re: Women and Chanukiot
• Re: women and chanukiyot (women making kidush)
• Re: women and chanukiyot
• Re: Hallel
• RE: Hallel
• RE: Menorah
• silk-screened sifrei torah (STAM) and megillot
• Re: BY disagreeing with Rambam

>> BTW you had to light in the US because of the different time zones. In

> Nope. Louisville and New Jersey are both Eastern Time.

An interesting question would be if for the guy it was not yet Plag
HaMincha (ie he had at that point no hiuv) but for the woman it was after
Shkia. Apparently there is a machlokes if the guy can be yotzei by his
wife's lighting...

On 5 Dec 2002 at 15:57, Daniel M Wells wrote:

>>> BTW you had to light in the US because of the different time zones.
>>> In

>> Nope. Louisville and New Jersey are both Eastern Time.

> An interesting question would be if for the guy it was not yet Plag
> HaMincha (ie he had at that point no hiuv) but for the woman it was
> after Shkia. Apparently there is a machlokes if the guy can be yotzei
> by his wife's lighting...

From what I recall (and this was eighteen years ago so my 
recollection may not be accurate), I think my wife waited until after 
tzeis in Louisville to light for me in Passaic. 

-- Carl

Carl M. Sherer, Adv. Zell, Goldberg & Co.
Telephone 972-2-571-5030 Fax 972-2-571-5031 eFax (US) 1-253-423-1459

mailto:cmsherer@fandz.com      mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

It was a mistake to bomb the nuclear reactor in Iraq. 
Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon P, Haaretz, December 24, 1995

Tonight the seventh night I have enough oil for nine more lights.
If it was impossible to get more oil, which option would be preferable:

1. Light seven tonight and two tomorrow

2. Light seven tonight and one tomorrow

3. Light two   tonight and eight tomorrow

4. Light one   tonight and eight tomorrow?

Daniel

> Tonight the seventh night I have enough oil for nine more lights.
> If it was impossible to get more oil, which option would be preferable:

> 1. Light seven tonight and two tomorrow

> 2. Light seven tonight and one tomorrow

> 3. Light two   tonight and eight tomorrow

> 4. Light one   tonight and eight tomorrow?

It's a machlokes between the MB (& others) and the Avi Ezri (the mahclokes
is specifically when you have 2 candles on the third night).  The MB would
tell you option 2 while the Avi Ezri would tell you option 1.

The following has been brought to my attention:

See the discussion in _Or Yisrael_30(2002), an excellent Torah periodical
published in Monsey. The article calls those who support silk-screen Torah
production "the worst sinners in Jewish history since Yerovom ben Nevat."

On 4 Dec 2002 at 19:22, Feldman, Mark wrote:

> From: Jordan Hirsch [mailto:trombaedu@earthlink.net]
>> OK, I may be mixing up my Achronim, but I believe the Elyah Raba expressed
>> some discomfort with the idea of a Woman making Kiddush for her husband. SO
>> there is at least someone who says no.

> I think you're referring to the issue of "zeilah ba milsah." That is
> not an *inherent* problem (invalidating the kiddush) but merely a
> statement that it's improper to do (presumably because it's demeaning
> to the husband, or something like that). To my knowledge, there is no
> one who says that a woman cannot be motzee a man in kiddush.

The advantages of being home with sforim....

Rashi in Succa 38a puts it much more strongly than that. He says 
"v'im lomad, tavo lo me'eira she'mevazeh es kono la'asos lo shluchim 
ka'ela." 

"Zila ba milsa" is what Tosfos there (s"v b'emes) says regarding a 
woman being motzi the rabim with a bracha. 

-- Carl

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

See pictures of Israel. Point your browser to:

http://www.members.home.net/projectonesoul/israel/israel.htm
http://www.bereshitsoftware.com/kdoshim/index.htm

On Thu, 5 Dec 2002 04:39:08 +0000, Micha Berger wrote:
>On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 10:49:53AM +0000, Eli Turkel wrote:
The question is whether we can assume something is allegory
>without : some mesorah that it's allegory.>

 It seems clear to me that many places where Maharal allegorizes a
Chazal it is not based on any mesorah....

<Please don't take me to mean there is no concept of chiddush. 
Rather, that chiddush must be consistant with mesorah. Not 
introducing an idea that no da'as yachid even raised because of some 
philosophical or scientific motive.>

>-mi

My main point was more in aggadata issues where mesorah is less 
clear. For example the concept of aliyah and Jerusalem being the 
center of the world is now considered to be a spiritual height and 
not a physical heightand center. Is there any basis for this in the 
Gemara itself?
Similarly many gemaras indicate that the world is flat and that seems 
to be the way rishonim acce[ted it. Today we reintrepr these gemaras.

Even in halacha we have debated using scientific data to re-intrepret 
gemaras. Tosafot introduce the concept of nishtanu ha-teva. It some 
cases this may be physically valid but in others it is just a 
reintrepation of the gemara to fit modern science
--
 Eli Turkel, turkel@math.tau.ac.il on 12/05/2002

RE: Adon Olam, How can you say that Hashem was King before creation when
"ein melech blo am".

The key to answering this comes from careful analysis of the terms
Malchus, Shem (Shmo), Cheftso. If you carefully look at all versions of
the Kedusha as it is expanded on different occasions and in the blessings
of the Shema, the following becomes evident:

Malchus - G-d's immanence or reaching to the world (Pachad Yitshak
talks about two types of Malchus, one form top to us, another form us
reaching upwards, in the volume on Rosh Hashana and defines it in this
way). Shem - our perception of HIm, what we call him based on perceived
attributes. Will is a philosophical term with NeoPlatonic roots.

So,
The Eternal Master who reached out to the word before anything was
created,
After everytning was created through His Will (cheftso), then HIs name
was called King - we can now perceive His presence in the world through
his actions in it.

The analysis of the Kedusha can be found in my forthcoming book on the
Shema that is expected BE"H to be in the stores by early January.

Meir Levin

> In a message dated 12/02/2002 9:26:59 PM EST, yadmoshe@012.net.il writes:
>> Why don't we turn the situation around. What examples can you cite
>> of improper sources being widely accepted for at least 700 years and
>> then after being discovered to be from these types of sources being
>> rejected. As Rav Moshe indicates with non Jewish names - there can be a
>> process of gerus or as he indicates with clothing - how do we know that
>> it didn't originate with Jewish sources.

> I'd be interested in seeing this tshuva inside-cite?
> What is the status of the first group that names or clothes -are they
> doing wrong but the continued actions make it right later?

Clothing YD I #81 page142
Names EH III #35 page 480 OH V #10 page 17

                                            Daniel Eidensohn

From: "Jonathan Baker" <jjbaker@panix.com>
>>> One is called to account in the Next 
>>> World for that which was mutar to one, and one did not take advantage 
>>> of it. 

>> Source????? 

> Lots of people have said this. Looking on the web, it's always 
> attributed to "the talmud", but nobody specifies a page number. 
> Maybe it's one of the phantom maamorei chazal? Suffice it to say, 
> I've heard it in lots of places, modern, Chabad, etc. 

The exact location of this 'phantom maamor chazol' is at the end of
perek daled of Yerushalmi Mesechtas Kidushin...the last maamor in the
name of Rav. and to quote the yerushalmi

'Osid odom litein din v'chesboin aal kol shero'as einoi vloi ochal' 
and then the Yerushalmi goes on to bring a story of R' Luzer was
'choishesh' for this d'rash and he used to save and put together prutahs,
perutahs, to be able to buy and eat from everything

From: "Carl and Adina Sherer" <sherer@actcom.co.il>
> How can she be motzi you with ha'Motzi (assuming that she is making 
> the bracha for you as well as for herself)? 

From: "Mishpachat Freedenberg" <free@actcom.co.il>
> I also asked the same question myself. How can she make motzi for her
> husband? 

where does everybody take this that you can't be moitzeh someone else
with a birchas hanehenin when you are also partaking of the food?

Nobody has been by a Bris or any other function where a brocha is made
on a cup of wine and the m'vorech doesn't want to drink or only wants
to drink a small sip and he gets someone to listen and be mechavin to
be yoitzeh with his Boirei Pri Hagofen and drink a reviis?

> There is a Mogen Avrohom in Hilchas Birchas Hamozoun that says that if a
> woman or, for that matter, anybody that is 'yoitze' with someone elses
> kidush and he misses even ONE word, he/she is NOT yoitze. The mogen
> Avrohom goes on to give an 'eitzeh', that the person that is yoitzeh
> from someone else should say along kidush word for word with the one
> who is actualy making the kidush on the cup of wine.

> I know of some families that are of Galitcian descent(since the Mogen
> Avrohom came from Galicia) that have this minhug that all the household,
> INCLUDING THE WOMEN, say along kidush with the head of the household.
> This should solve the problem.

I do not understand. Would not this fall under "Trei Kolei Lo Nishma'in."?
Either that, or no one is being Motzei you, you are merely making Kiddush
for yourelf, albeit queitly.

Jordan Hirsch

From: "Feldman, Mark" <MFeldman@CM-P.COM>
>I have no idea as to how rabbonim pasken, but I will tell you that this 
>arrangement is quite common among couples who attend the Harvard Hillel,
>and I have the impression that it's also common on the Upper West Side.
>Anyone have the email address of the O rabbi of the Harvard Hillel (if
>it's the same one as was there a couple of years ago, he's definitely
>a talmid chacham)?

Rabbi Klapper is the Orthodox Rabbi at Harvard Hillel. He also sits
on the Boston Beit Din and is the mora d'asra of the Orthodox community
in Cambridge. His email address is RryehDKL@aol.com.

~Sammy Groner

From: "Jonathan Baker" <jjbaker@panix.com>
>> Well, what if your wife started making kiddush on her own at her
>> parent's house; now that she is married, should you be making kiddush
>> for her or should she continue making it for herself at the table in
>> front of you? There are a number of things that a married woman is
>> privileged to have her husband do for her that she did for herself when
>> she was single. This is not a bad thing at all. If that is your minhag,
>> fine. If it is your minhag that every person in the household lights,
>> fine. But it should not be an issue of thinking that saying a bracha is
>> any better or more important halachically than saying amen to your
>> bracha. 

> Sometimes we switch around and she says kiddush.  So?

There is a Mogen Avrohom in Hilchas Birchas Hamozoun that says that if a
woman or, for that matter, anybody that is 'yoitze' with someone elses
kidush and he misses even ONE word, he/she is NOT yoitze. The mogen
Avrohom goes on to give an 'eitzeh', that the person that is yoitzeh
from someone else should say along kidush word for word with the one
who is actualy making the kidush on the cup of wine.

I know of some families that are of Galitcian descent(since the Mogen
Avrohom came from Galicia) that have this minhug that all the household,
INCLUDING THE WOMEN, say along kidush with the head of the household.
This should solve the problem.

>But the kohanim are not doing the duchen FOR you, they are doing it TO you.
>It's not apposite.  "Levarech et amo yisra'el bashalom" - the people are
>the OBJECT of the bracha-flow, and the kohanim are channeling that flow from
>Hashem to the am.  Kiddush has its own rules.

Birhat kohanim also has its own rules.

\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\
IRA L. JACOBSON
/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/
mailto:laser@ieee.org

[Only part of a post, bounced from Areivim. -mi]

Not saying Hallel on Yom Ha-Atzmaut is based on Halachic considerations.

IIRC, Hallel was established by the Anshei Knesses HaGedolah for
specific days or events where there was a clear Nes that happened to
yo. Saying a Bracha without those parameters violates Halacha and is a
Bracha L'Vatalah. Saying Hallel w/o a Bracha is also a problem because
the Tehillim used for Hallel were determined by Chazal to be used in
that way ONLY for the purpose they had intended so one cannot say those
Tehillim as Hallel and consider it Psukim of Tehillim.

Of course others disagree... most notably, R. Kook who said it with a
Bracha and RAS who said it w/o a Bracha.

But that's what makes horse races.

HM

> IIRC, Hallel was established by the Anshei Knesses HaGedolah for
> specific days or events where there was a clear Nes that happened to
> yo. Saying a Bracha without those parameters violates Halacha and is
> a Bracha L'Vatalah. Saying Hallel w/o a Bracha is also a problem....

> Of course others disagree... most notably, R. Kook who said it with a
> Bracha and RAS who said it w/o a Bracha.

See also Kol Mevaser, chelek alef, siman 21.

Avi Burstein

>>>I had two pence on this Ramban.<<<

One other nekudah - the presents of nesi'im were unique in that it
required a special hora'as sha'ah/matir in order to bring ketores
on the mizbayach hachitzon outside its normal place (Menachos 50 -
normally ketores cannot be offered by a yachid outside the heichal).
Chanukah is also in a sense a matir to extend the mitzva of menoras
mikdash outside its normal time/place.

>>>The role of the kohein is to give the am a common focus. To take the 
>>>different thoughts and approaches of the shevatim and aim them at a 
>>>common avodas H'.<<<

Chanukah in general is connected davka with kohein gadol - the shemen
was sealed with the chosam of the kohein gadol, & there are others
connections. Radomsker points out 8 nights parallel 8 bigdei kehuna
of k"g. B'zos yavo Ahron el hakodesh/zos chanukas hamizbayach.

The centrality of k"g may be the necessary ingredient to heal the pirud
between Yosef and his brothers. Chanukah= ad shetichleh regel min hashuk;
regel=meraglim atem (Radomsker). The story in chumash is resoved with
Yehudah=melech surrendering his role to Yosef, who has become the king
in mitzrayim. The kohanim of chanukah usurp the role of malchus once
again from shevet yehudah (inspiring a whole discussion in rishonim).
Meshech Chochma on Shmos 4:14 writes that the choshen of bigdei k"g
was mechapeir on mechiras Yosef - Rashi says Ahron was zoche to wear
it because of the joy he felt when Moshe was appointed leader of klal
yisrael, the opposite reaction of the shevatim to yosef's gadlus.
Getting back to the Ramban, one might have thought the jealousy of
Ahron at not being able to join the other shevatim in dedicating mikdash
was perhaps a reflection again of that old pirud between the shevatim.
However, the Torah reveals that this was b'geder kinas sofrim tarbeh
chochma/chochma=shemen, that davka Ahron as k"g is the ultimate source
of achdus through neiros chanukah and menorah.

-Chaim

The production of sifrei torah, tefillin parshiot, mezuzot, and megillot
by a silk-screening type process is causing much controversy. Leading
poskim in Israel have declared emphatically that the script is pasul,
while a Rav Abadi in J'lem (formerly Lakewood) declares it kosher
lemehadrin and actually produces these articles. While I am not qualified
to pass judgement on this issue, I would like to describe the technical
aspects of the process which I gathered from reading R' Abadi's website.
A faithful copy of a well-written klaf is scanned into computer memory
or a well-designed halachic script font is created followed by the
formation of the text page. The computer page is sized according to the
dimensions of a prepared, lined kosher klaf. The text is reproduced on a
photosensitive material probably using a laser printer (without the ink).
The irradiated areas are then selectively dissolved leaving a stencil of
the page. This stencil is then accurately placed over the lined klaf and
kosher ink is applied using a squeegee. The inked page then appears and
is dried. Many such klafim are then sewed together with sinew to create
the sefer torah.

The question, of course, is what makes this stencil inking process
equivalent to writing? Normal writing is done one letter at a time,
and it is important to preserve the order of letter formation in writing
STAM. Here the letters are formed wholesale by ink filling the spaces in
the stencil. R' Abadi has not written a responsum justifying his method
(see the Q&A section of his website). Why, for example, is this process
entirely different than printing which, I believe, no one accepts as a
valid process for creating STAM or megillot?

I wonder, however, what the objection would be to forming stencil "sticks"
of kosher lettering of different letter sizes, and using this type of
stencil to form the text one letter at a time (using, for example, a
Leroy lettering utensil)? Here the stylus is moved in the grooves of
the stencil letter while the pen end of the pantograph forms the letter
on the lined klaf.

Yitzchok Zlochower

Reb Eliyahu Gerstl wrote:
> 3. Citations to the places in the Beit Yosef and/or in the (Karo) SA
> where the Beit Yosef/Mechaber does not follow the Rambam.

First that comes to mind is how to understand the 11 days between nida and 
nida period. See BY on Tur YD183.

Arie

*********************


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