Avodah Mailing List

Volume 10 : Number 015

Monday, September 30 2002

• Re: Bowing during the Avodas Yom Kippur
• RE: Traveling on sukkot
• Re: Bowing during the Avodas Yom Kippur
• Re: Birchat kohanim/hoshanot/ naanuim
• Re: Birchat kohanim/hoshanot/ naanuim
• Re: Birchat kohanim/hoshanot/ naanuim
• Re: Birchat kohanim/hoshanot/ naanuim
• Re: Traveling on sukkot
• "Egalitarian" minyanim
• RE: Why teach the other opinions
• Dialectic Na'anu'im
• Re: Birchat kohanim/hoshanot/ naanuim

Arie Folger <afolger@ymail.yu.edu> stated:
>Since rav Bleich insists on maintaining
>his shul minhaggim except when he thinks it violates halakhik principles 
>(nixes 'Oseh hashalom as a final brakhah of 'amidah vehemently, for example,
>because it is not matbe'a shetavu 'hkhamim bevrakhot),

I like him already <g>.

The Oseh HAshalom change to the end of the shemoneh esrei and qaddish
was totally unknown to me until I came on aliya, and I must say that I
have successfully resisted it up till now.

(As opposed to something else I stated recently in error)

-----------------------
Mo'adim lesimha
IRA L. JACOBSON
mailto:laser@ieee.org

I wrote:
<<All these issues of tiyulim are discussed by RALichtenstein at length.

See:
http://www.vbm-torah.org/sukkot/suk-ral.htm 
>>

To induce you to read the article, which raises many of the arguments
discussed by RCS and RAStein, here are some excerpts:
<< . . . . 
Therefore, the halakhic conclusions that follow are: 

It is permitted to go on a trip during Chol Ha-mo'ed Sukkot even if it is
clear that the participants will not be able to perform the mitzva of sukka
during the tiyul. 

If, during the tiyul, they reach, around the normal or scheduled eating or
sleeping time, a place where there is a sukka they are able to enter, they
must eat and/or sleep there. How to define the area and the distance that
exempts them still needs clarification. 

If they finish the tiyul at night and stay in a place where they are able to
build a sukka, they are obligated to do so. To what degree they must exert
themselves also demands further clarification. 

If the activities of the tiyul extend late enough so not enough time is left
to build a sukka before sleeping time, they are exempt from building one. 


EDUCATION, MITZVOT, AND EXEMPTIONS - THE GREATER ISSUE

Up until now we spoke from a purely and exclusively halakhic vantage point.
However, on a practical level the matter seems radically different. 

One should be firmly and sharply opposed - both educationally and from the
perspective of Jewish beliefs and values - to tiyulim or activities organized
in a way that involves not observing the mitzva of sukka. The existence of
formal exemptions from positive mitzvot is not the exclusive nor the only
decisive way of gauging whether to perform them. We do not speak of actual
evasive trickery (ha'arama) - itself a significant problem in halakha and
belief - and this is not the forum to relate to it. Even not relating fully
to a mitzva is problematic, even when it involves ignoring and not evading.

A Jew must be saturated with an ambition and longing for mitzvot and not, God
forbid, view them as a burden he is inescapably stuck with that he tries to
cast off at the first opportunity. This point is at the root of the trait of
"zerizut" (acting with enthusiasm and energy), rooted in the obligation not
just to serve God, but to serve him with joy and exhilaration. Rabbi
Eliezer's statement, "If one's prayer is a fixed obligation it is not a
supplication," is explained by Rav Oshaya as "One whose prayer is a burden to
him." Of course this has special meaning in its home context, relating to
prayer, but the concept at its root applies to all mitzvot.
<snip>

Perhaps the central halakhic source in the Rishonim to clarify this issue is
in the laws of tzitzit. They built on the discussion in the gemara (Menachot
41a) between the angel and Rav Katina. Both Rav Katina's summer and winter
garments were technically exempt from tzitzit. The angel chastised him, "What
will be with the mitzva of tzitzit?" The gemara's discussion makes it clear
that Rav Katina was not violating the laws of tzitzit, but was evading the
mitzva by using exemptions. 
<snip>
However, the question itself, especially when asked by Israeli youth groups
that stand for education in service of Hashem and fear of God - and that no
small number of benei Torah are involved in - is problematic. For decades I
was in the Diaspora in places where the mitzva of sukka was not considered an
"easy mitzva," and I was never asked about using the traveler's exemption
when one is far from a sukka during the day. Did it ever enter the mind of a
businesthat strives to scrupulously fulfill mitzvot and, in the course of his
business, finds himself in New York's skyscrapers, to eat his lunch in his
office because there is no sukka in his vicinity? Did a student who views
himself as rooted in Torah and fear of God and finds himself forced to spend
a long day in a university library ever think of eating in a cafeteria
because the campus did not have a sukka? Is it possible that in Israel, where
the mitzva of sukka is both easier and more inclusive - a mitzva that even
many that are not generally observant still relate to in one way or another -
is it possible that here benei Torah should avoid keeping this mitzva in its
fullness?

I am well aware that many believe that there is much educational value to
youth groups' tiyulim - mostly because of how it deepens the love and
relationship to Eretz Yisrael. They also claim is that the days of Chol
Ha-mo'ed are most appropriate for scheduling tiyulim. As an outsider, it is
difficult for me to judge. However, I am convinced that, except for extremely
extenuating circumstances, the most important educational message we can pass
on to our youth during Sukkot is deepening the awareness and sensitivity for
observance and enthusiasm about mitzvot - even if this means some difficulty
and even if it involves sacrifice.

If there is need for tiyulim during the holiday, by all means have them.
Rabbi Eliezer's statement (Sukka 27b), "I praise the 'lazy ones' who do not
leave their homes on the holiday, for it says, 'You should be joyous, you and
your household," is not cited halakhically. But if a tiyul is organized,
arrangements should be made - the same way they are for trucks and water
supply, counselors and guides - to be able to fulfill the mitzva of sukka
properly. I am sure that the heads of the organizations, where the need and
desire is clearly felt, can grapple with more complex technical and
logistical challenges than arranging for sukkot for their campers.

We close with a prayer that He who spreads a sukka of peace over his people
Israel should help them succeed and merit organizing programming that will
give both recreation and education, both bring pleasure and uplift, while
deepening the mitzva of sukka specifically and mitzvot in general. So said he
who was the greatest of those who loved the land and longed for it, "Let
mitzvot that can be fulfilled by me, be fulfilled by me."
>>

In a message dated 9/26/2002 5:04:38 PM EDT, laser@ieee.org writes:
> Arie Folger <afolger@ymail.yu.edu> stated:
> >Since rav Bleich ...
> >(nixes 'Oseh hashalom as a final brakhah of 'amidah vehemently, for example,
> >because it is not matbe'a shetavu 'hkhamim bevrakhot),
...
> This change to the end of Sim Shalom was totally unknown to me until I 
> came on aliya, and I must say that I have successfully resisted it up 
> till now.

The Siyyum of Oseh Hashalom is older than the alternative Hamevareich.... *  
And Oseh Hashalom was not specifically for asseres Ymei Tshuvah either. See 
Aruch Hashulchan on this matter.  

*older in that it can be found in older documented versions 
 
Shanah Tovah
Richard Wolpoe
RabbiRichWolpoe@aol.com

In Avodah V10 #13, JIRich asked:
> Why does the shatz only do 2 naanuim at hodu and the kahal does 4?

Good question.  In KAJ/"Breuer's," the SHaTZ does all four, holding the
arba minim stationary for "bais Aharon" and "yir-ai H'" just as he did for
"laH'" (and, yes, also for "Yisrael," contrary to what I've seen done
elsewhere: "yomar" takes two naanuim, just as "anna" does later on...and,
while I'm on the topic, both "hoshi-ah" and "na" take two each, contrary to
the three/one I've seen some do elsewhere).

All the best (including wishes for a wonderful Shabbos and Chag) from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ

In a message dated 9/25/2002 11:26:49 AM EDT, Joelirich@aol.com writes:
> Are there any shuls out there that are minhag ashkenaz but do hoshanot
> after hallel during chol hamoed in order to speed up the davening?

I spend some time with Rav MD Tendler on Tuesday chol Hamoed. He said
the following:
1) his shul used to be ashkesfard but he srestored it to almost strict
Asheknaz
2) his shul still does hoshanos after Halle due to the logistical issue
that there is really no place to conventiently store the the arba minnim
from Hallel to Mussaf, so the most feasbile way is to do it all at once.
AIUI it's more of a tircha issue of going in and out rather than say a
time issue.
3) Why do hoshanos after Mussaf and not after Hallel? Due to taddir
ve'sheino tadir

> Why does the shatz only do 2 naanuim at hodu and the kahal does 4?

AISI, the Shatz should do just one, i.e.  the first one.  The point is to 
shake ONLY on Hodu Lashem's and Ana Hashem's.  I have no clue how the Yomar 
Na passuk got included for the Shatz. 

Shanah Tovah
Richard Wolpoe
RabbiRichWolpoe@aol.com

It seems that it is not uncommon that nusach ashkenaz shuls switch
during the week to hoshanot after hallel but continue the nussaf minhag
on yom tov (and perhaps Hoshanna Rabbah). The prevailing reason is tircha
dtzibburah of unholstering the lulav and esrog twice.

Questions:
1. What is the halachik principle that is employed to determine when
a change in minhag is permissible(why isn't it a neder brabbim type
situation?)
2. Isn't having 2 different minhagim for chol vs. yom tov problematic
(not exactly tartei dsatrei but along those lines)

Shabbat shalom and moadim lsimcha
Joel Rich

On Fri, Sep 27, 2002 at 01:46:14PM -0400, Joelirich@aol.com wrote:
: It seems that it is not uncommon that nusach ashkenaz shuls switch
: during the week to hoshanot after hallel but continue the nussaf minhag
: on yom tov (and perhaps Hoshanna Rabbah). The prevailing reason is tircha
: dtzibburah of unholstering the lulav and esrog twice.

Isn't there also the desire not to take the Torah out more often than
necessary?

-mi

What is the proper paridigm to consider the similarities/differences
between the amount of effort required by halacha not to take advantage of
a ptur from sukkah (see R'AL article already posted re: building sukkot
for tiyul) and the amount of effort required by halacha not to take
advantage of davening byichidut all year long(versus tfila btzibbur)?
For example - am I required to catch a flight 4 hours later in order to
ensure that I can daven with a minyan?

shabbat shalom Moadim Lsimcha 
Joel Rich

Akiva Atwood writes: "I can think of several otherwise O communities,
both here and in the US, which have "egalitarian minyanim", either as
the norm or as an acceptable alternative." As someone who has followed
this issue for many years, I was somewhat surprised by this statement
since I know of no such minyanim. I assume R. Akiva is not referring to
those minyanim in which women lead pesukai dizimra and kaballat shabbat
services, have aliyot, and read the Torah, but do not lead shacharit or
musaf nor are they counted in the minyan, since those minyanim, which
still treat men and women differently, are surely not "egalitarian."
I wonder if R. Akiva would tell us which minyanim he was referring to.

Joseph C. Kaplan

I wrote <<< My understanding is this: If there would be a community
that was otherwise Shomer Mitzvos, and accepted certain C decisions,
and over a period of time was successful at integrating them into their
Shomer Mitzvos lifestyle, then it would be very hard to pin them down,
and explain how - or whether - they are beyond the pale. >>>

R' Akiva Atwood responded <<< I can think of several otherwise O
communities, both here and in the US, which have "egalitarian minyanim",
either as the norm or as an acceptable alternative. What about O
communities which don't hold by "negia" or "yichud"? >>>

I should have been clearer, and restated R' Gershon Dubin's (I think it
was he who I was responding to) criterion that not only is the practice
accepted by a community as being consistent with Torah, but also accepted
by their spiritual leaders as such. That's why I referred to "C decisions"
rather than "C practices".

So if these examples were meant in terms of the fact that people are weak
and violations are rampant in some communities, then you are correct. The
people may have succeeded at integrating these things into their otherwise
Shomer Mitzvos lifestyle, but their rabbis have not sanctioned it,
and these activities remain beyond the pale.

Negia, on the other hand... There *are* those who allow allow shaking
hands in a business or other non-romantic situation. *Not* beyond
the pale.

So too for egalitarian minyanim. If they don't have anyone supporting
them, then forgetaboutit. But if they do have some support, no matter
how flimsy, then how is it different than Mayim Acharonim?

Akiva Miller

I didn't notice it until yesterday, probably because the tune we say
"Hodu Lashem" to on Sukkos isn't quite in line with the meaning. But it
made me wonder about what statement we're trying to make with na'anu'im.

We shake na'anu'im for two pesuqim: Hodu Lashem ki tov, ki le'olam
chasdo. This is shevach, and quite joyous one at that.

However, we also deem na'anu'im to be appropriate for Ana Hashem hoshi'ah
Nna. A plaintive baqashah.

What does na'anu'im mean, that it could be fitting in two such different
contexts? Is it, as I suggest in the subject line, addressing an
underlying dialectic?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                     Life is complex.
micha@aishdas.org                    Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org                   The Torah is complex.
Fax: (413) 403-9905                                    - R' Binyamin Hecht

>> Are there any shuls out there that are minhag ashkenaz but do hoshanot
>> after hallel during chol hamoed in order to speed up the davening?

>Almost universal here except on Shabbos. I don't think I've ever seen
>it done otherwise here.
>RYBS also did it that way IIRC.

At least one Yekke shul in Petah Tiqwa does it the other way (i.e., 
hoshanot after musaf), necessitating extra wear and tear on the 4 minim, 
and taking longer overall

---------------------------
IRA L. JACOBSON
mailto:laser@ieee.org

*********************


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