Avodah Mailing List

Volume 10 : Number 001

Friday, September 6 2002

• Re: Keeping The Faith
• Re: "halachik intuition"
• Re: Teiku
• Re: FW: RE: lo bashamayim
• Re: My 9/11 Miracle, More Or Less
• Hard-to-see bugs in vegetables
• Re: Why teach the other opinions?
• RE: Why teach the other opinions
• Re: Going to Uman for RH
• RE: Hard-to-see bugs in vegetables
• Re: Hard-to-see bugs in vegetables
• re:SSY
• RE: My 9/11 Miracle, More Or Less
• Re: Ellul vs Aseres Yimei Teshuva
• RE: Elul vs. Tishrei
• RE: Elul vs. Tishrei
• Re: Teshuva in Elul
• wedding dates and halacha
• Re: wedding dates and halacha
• wedding dates and halacha
• wedding dates and halacha
• Two from the Yated
• SSY
• Re: Teshuva in Elul
• Re: Elul vs Tishrei

On Fri, Aug 30, 2002 at 03:05:24PM -0400, Gil Student wrote:
: A series of three interesting essays by R. Nathan Lopes Cardozo titled
: "Keeping The Faith": ....

: His distinction between "belief that" and "belief in" (which is not
: originally his, of course) and his application of it towards yedi'as Hashem
: could perhaps be termed differently as whether we are obligated to know G-d
: "through acquaintance" or "through description"...

Part I does read like RGS's analysis. The need to have an I-Thou with
G-d over simply knowing/believing about Him.

: experiential knowledge and with the latter an intellectual knowledge (see
: http://www.ditext.com/russell/rus5.html).

I don't think RNLC goes as far as requiring us to gnostically experience
G-d! Prayer, not prophecy.

Part II, however, seems to make a different chaqirah, and that's where
he uses the terms "belief that" and "belief in". I saw "belief that"
as being emunah in the ikkarim, and "belief in" as about bitachon.

Emunah is a precondition to bitachon. One can't trust that Hashem will
make everything work out in the end without first believing there is a
HQBH who has the koach to make everything work out.

(As I wrote once before, perhaps this is the reason for semichus
ge'ulah letefillah. Ge'ulah is about emunah, the bakashos of tefillah
are pointless without emunah.)

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                     Time flies...
micha@aishdas.org                        ... but you're the pilot.
http://www.aishdas.org                           - R' Zelig Pliskin
Fax: (413) 403-9905          

On Tue, Sep 03, 2002 at 10:43:22PM -0400, kennethgmiller@juno.com wrote:
: I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "linkage", but I am fascinated
: by Chapter 6 of Rav Aryeh Kaplan's "The Handbook of Jewish Thought",
: entitled "Inspiration". Here are some excerpts:
: "The lowest level of inspiration is divine guidance that is granted to a
: person without his knowledge..." (6:18) "The next degree of revelation ..."
[... and so on upward.]
: I think that what we call "intuition" falls somewhere on this spectrum.
: The low end, granted, but on it somewhere.

That's normal English usage, for example, it is common to say
that music is "inspired". (Well, maybe Bach, but certainly not
Mozart. <grin> See RNLC's comparison of Bach and Beethoven, and
the similarity between Bach's style and the halachic process in
<http://www.cardozoschool.org/cardozo/thoughts35.htm>.)

However, that kind of inspiration is also true of finding the right
conscious deductive halachic ruling. It doesn't distinguish intuition
from the usual siyata diShmaya in getting the right pesaq.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                     Time flies...
micha@aishdas.org                        ... but you're the pilot.
http://www.aishdas.org                           - R' Zelig Pliskin
Fax: (413) 403-9905          

On Sat, Aug 31, 2002 at 11:43:48PM -0400, kennethgmiller@juno.com wrote:
: R' Joel Rich asked <<< How do others understand teku - that it will be
: through superior intellect or intuition or broad enough shoulders to
: make a call in unclear areas? >>>
: 
: Here's my guess: Eliyahu/Moshiach/whoever will be such a Talmid Chacham
: that he'll be able to pull sources together which we've had all along,
: but we didn't put it together the way he will...

Since he was around during all that time, presumably Eliyahu could simply
remember what Sanhedrin said and what the mesorah was.

-mi

On Wed, Sep 04, 2002 at 10:58:16AM -0400, Stein, Aryeh wrote:
: I seem to recall that the chiluk is as follows: "lo bashamayim" means
: that we don't listen to a bas kol which is telling us how to pasken.
: However, if the whole basis for the uncertainty as to how to pasken is
: because we don't know the underlying facts, then we _can_ listen to a
: bas kol which is telling us, l'ma'aseh, what actually happened/what are
: the facts.

As I pointed out, the rishonim don't all assume that the tanur shel
achna'i story is the norm.

Let me also add the Chida's shitah: Lo bashamayim hi is true WRT pesaq,
but not WRT questions of metzi'us or history.

I think he'd allow following a bas qol that told us what it is Sanhedrin
had pasqened. This too would allow for teshuvos min hashamayim.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                     Time flies...
micha@aishdas.org                        ... but you're the pilot.
http://www.aishdas.org                           - R' Zelig Pliskin
Fax: (413) 403-9905          

On Fri, Aug 30, 2002 at 05:31:02PM -0400, Feldman, Mark wrote:
:> If we're to thank Hashem for saving us from some danger
:> think how much we need to thank Him when HQBH keeps the sakanah away
:> altogether!

: This approach certainly works well according to Rav Dessler...

Well, to give credit where due, RMMS (the L Rebbe) holds it's the Besht's
chiddush that hashgachah peratis is universal even for domeim, tzomei'ach
and chai. REED got it from chassidus. But as for HP being for all people,
it's a machloqes rishonim, and most siding with the Rambam at least to
the extent that HP must be earned.

However, even REED holds that hashgachah that matches what the individual
wants must be earned. Thus his bitachon vs hishtadlus dichotomy. Bitachon
is his means of earning that form of assistance.

But this isn't a nature of hashgachah thing. The berachah of gomel
presumes that HP was involved. Would you argue that the Rambam would
tell you not to bench gomel unless it was a neis nigleh because maybe
you were saved biderech hateva?

My post, being to Areivim, wasn't being so intellectual. It was based on
my own beliefs, not on some rishon's thoughts. Which is basically RAK's
(as you note below).

: Query to RMB: since you tend to follow RAKaplan on issues of
: hashgacha--doesn't RAK concede the existence of nature, just that Hashem
: fine tunes its application to individuals via of the indeterminacy
: of nature....

RAK moots the question. Since modern conceptions of teva are
non-deterministic, saying that man is subject to teva doesn't deny that
he is simultaneously subject to HP.

Which brings us also to a different thread, that of "halachic intuition".

On Tue, Sep 03, 2002 at 10:43:22PM -0400, kennethgmiller@juno.com wrote:
: In fact, my personal feeling is to go even a little bit further. Bechira
: chafshis is a concept which transcends physical determinism...

The brain is an amazing set of feedback loops. The neural net is one
of the more complex Chaotic Systems about. IOW, it's of the class of
machines where microscopic changes in initial conditions can have
macroscopic changes in final conditions. In fact, a single quantum
event can have macroscopic effects. So, the brain is a "device" for
bringing non-determinism to the scale in which we live.

OTOH, bechirah chafshi isn't randomness. Randomness is a coin toss --
coins don't choose which way to land.

However, by allowing the physics to be non-deterministic, it allows
for a way that the neshama's choices could have physical effects
without violating the laws of physics.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                     Time flies...
micha@aishdas.org                        ... but you're the pilot.
http://www.aishdas.org                           - R' Zelig Pliskin
Fax: (413) 403-9905          

I found rough notes of a shiur by R. Mordechai Tendler on the web:
<http://www.yu.edu/faculty/emayer/riets_notes/notes_pages/contemphalakha_sp00.doc>

> The first problem is that it's difficult for us to be Motzi La`az
> on the Doros Rishonim, even beOnes, that they were `Over on some sort
> of Issur especially Ma'akhalos Asuros. Chullin 5b-6a-Takkala doesn't
> come through Tzaddikim....

> [I]n terms of insect infestation in vegetables--there are creatures we
> can't see because [(1)] our ability to see doesn't magnify enough for
> us to see--microscopic creatures. Or, [(2)] that our ability to see
> is insufficient to demarcate them. Just as the first type of creature,
> that it's not Asur because I can't see it, so too with the second type
> of creature. If you see it you need to take it away. As long as you
> can't see it-you searched and washed them properly, what remains is not
> Asur if you don't see it. The Torah didn't demand that you go through
> the trouble to demarcate them.

> There's a second approach-maybe we could say a little less of a Chiddush.
> Birya eno Batel is a Din deRabbanan. It's Mistabber that Chazal gave
> the Chashivus to Biryos which are Chashuv in themselves; a Birya which is
> not Nir'e la`Enayim does not have the Chashivus. You can see a Nemala,
> but what you can't see is not Chashuv. On this approach-if there's not 60
> (a tiny piece of lettuce) it's not Batel

It wasn't absolutely clear from the shiur--is Rav M Tendler reflecting
the (written/oral) view of R Moshe Feinstein? Has anyone heard this
kind of analysis from poskim?

Kol tuv,
Moshe

R' Carl Sherer wrote <<< What if the teacher/posek/Rebbe holds that the
other opinion is NOT legitimate? For example, someone here mentioned
women wearing pants the other day. I'm sure I don't have to tell you
that there are many, many poskim who hold that there is no heter.>>>

First off, in my original post, I pointed out that I'm NOT suggesting
that every shita must always be taught to every student. It depends very
much on many factors, as you wrote as well.

But an argument can be made that one should teach the other opinions
*especially* when "our" posek holds that they are not legitimate even
b'shaas had'chak. Namely: If we are so strongly against that other shita,
then it becomes even more important for our students and children to
understand *why* we are against it, so that they will not be led "astray"
by those who do follow that other opinion.

And as a side benefit, if we are that strongly against the other shita,
then I suppose we'd have very strong raayos against it. Teaching those
raayos will help our children appreciate the wisdom of "our" poskim,
which will give them chizuk for other psakim as well.

(Of course, teaching these things does run the risk that it might turn
our beloved little robots into thinking humans, but that's a whole
'nother thread...)

Akiva Miller

RCS wrote
> That presumes the legitimacy of the lenient opinion. What if the
> teacher/posek/Rebbe holds that the other opinion is NOT legitimate?
> For example, someone here mentioned women wearing pants the other day. I'm
> sure I don't have to tell you that there are many, many poskim who hold
> that there is no heter.

It is precisely this position that is itself problematic.  

Ie, I can hold that I strongly disagree with the lenient opinion, and
think that it is based on a mistaken understanding of the gmara/SA,
and rule (for anyone who will ask me or follow my shitta) that it is
completely forbidden, and try to convince everyone else that it is assur.
There are many halachic debates in history.

However, there are here clear sources and rabbanim who are mattir, and
kehillot who had followed them. To deny the legitimacy of the heter for
those kehillot, even if one wishes to convince them to change, is not
merely to disagree with the reasonings/conclusion, but to conclude that
those rabbanim may not be relied upon by anyone. It is this position -
that one is very willing to write off positions, poskim, and communities
contrary to mine as not merely wrong, but as hutz lamachane, that is
so very problematic (and I would argue, that that position itself makes
the posek hinmself hutz lamachane..)

Meir Shinnar

> One is allowed to leave E"Y in order to visit kivrei tzaddikim. It is
> brought in Shaarei Teshuva in Orach Chaim (exact ch. can't remember
> off-hand).

Shaarei Tshuva 568:8

From: Feldman, Mark 
> I found rough notes of a shiur by R. Mordechai Tendler on the web:
<http://www.yu.edu/faculty/emayer/riets_notes/notes_pages/contemphalakha_sp00
.doc>

Just to be clear, it seems that he was *critiquing* the following view:
<<There are big books on how to prepare vegetables.  Different vegetables
have different requirements.
Basically, some sort of soaking-salt water and vinegar, and
agitation-non-electric centrifuging, and washing it off.  Certain things
can't be checked and need to be cut off.  If you don't follow one of these
methods, you will have bugs in your vegetables.  The bugs are
camouflaged-they fit the vegetable and you can't see them moving-they stick
to the vegetable.
>>

That's what I believe the author refers to when he talks about "that our
ability to see is insufficient to demarcate them" -- i.e., a bug which is
visible to the naked eye as an insect when it is off the vegetable but cannot
be spotted when on the vegetable.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

It wasn't absolutely clear from the shiur--is Rav M Tendler reflecting
the (written/oral) view of R Moshe Feinstein? Has anyone heard this
kind of analysis from poskim?

Igros Moshe Y.D. IV #2 page 160. (He cites Aruch HaShulchan YD 100:13-18.)
It was addressed to Rav M. Tendler.

I have heard that Rav Heineman holds a similar view though possibly not
identical view.

Daniel Eidensohn

>>  Borchi Nafshi and
>> Mizmor Shir are not, in my opinion.  They are added because they are the
>> Shir shel Yom for Rosh Chodesh and Chanukah, respectively, and of course
>> SSY is said only in the morning....

> I don't understand this opinion. Surely on RC they said the shir shel
> yom on the korban tamid, and the shir shel RC on the korban musaf.
> On Hannukah there was no musaf, and they didn't say a special shir
> at all. Why should only one SSY be said on RC? Why is there a special
> SSY for Chanukah?

On Rosh Chodesh, Borchi Nafshi was said on both the t'midim, morning and
evening, and the musafim. On Chanukah, Mizmor Shir Chanukas was said on
the t'midim. See Rosh Hashanah 31b, that "niskalk'lu haL'vi'im b'shir"
refers to the tamid -- whether to say the weekday or the Rosh Hashanah
SSY. On special-shir days, the day-of-the-week shir was not said at all.

From: Micha Berger [mailto:micha@aishdas.org]
:> If we're to thank Hashem for saving us from some danger
:> think how much we need to thank Him when HQBH keeps the sakanah away
:> altogether!

Me:
: Query to RMB: since you tend to follow RAKaplan on issues of
: hashgacha--doesn't RAK concede the existence of nature, just that Hashem
: fine tunes its application to individuals via of the indeterminacy
: of nature....

From: Micha Berger [mailto:micha@aishdas.org] 
> RAK moots the question. Since modern conceptions of teva are
> non-deterministic, saying that man is subject to teva doesn't 
> deny that he is simultaneously subject to HP.

Perhaps you could elaborate. The way I understand RAK is that Hashem
is subtlely influencing nature through the non-deterministic aspect of
nature. Kind of like the butterfly in Africa causing wind in America.
But certain aspects of nature are not really non-deterministic. E.g.,
before Columbus, no one was sailing to America, so it wouldn't make
sense for a European Jew to thank Hashem for having been saved from a
hurricane which struck the coast of Florida.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

Akiva Miller wrote:
> The question will be asked, "Why does Elul have only these sets
> of prayers, rather than some sort of mitzvah-strengthing observance
> comparable to Pas Palter?"

We know that that On Rosh Hashana Tzadikim nechtovim v'nechtomim l'alter
l'chaim while beinumnim tluyim v'omdim ad Yoim Hakipurim. With that said
we can answer your question. Tzadikim don't need "mitzvah-strengthing
observance comparable to Pas Palter" because they don't eat Pas Palter
because it's not l'chatchila.

> Don't the seforim also tell us to focus on tshuvah primarily between
> RH and YK--the aseres y'mei tshuvah? I'm curious: when is the earliest
> mention of the idea that the days of final week of the year are meant
> to be an opportunity to be metaken the sins associated with each day?

I have no idea; I don't think I have ever seen it inside, and I certainly
don't remember the sources quoted by the rebbe I heard the shmooz from.

> ...All in all, I think it is clear that aseres y'mei tshuvah are the
> traditional focus of tshuvah. The days of Elul are also meant for this
> purpose, but are secondary to the aseres ymei tshuvah.

A few weeks ago I heard a tape from R' Rottman (RY in Merkaz HaTorah)
in which his main point was that Elul is not merely a preparation for
the yemei hadin/yomim noraim, but are actually a chelek of the yemei
hadin/yomim noraim themselves. He brought several proofs (IIRC from
the Shelah and the Rambam) to demonstrate this. According to this view,
the days of Elul are not necessarily secondary to the aseres ymei tshuvah.

KT and KvCT
Aryeh

From: Stein, Aryeh [mailto:AStein@wtplaw.com]
> A few weeks ago I heard a tape from R' Rottman (RY in Merkaz 
> HaTorah) in which his main point was that Elul is not merely 
> a preparation for the yemei hadin/yomim noraim, but are 
> actually a chelek of the yemei hadin/yomim noraim themselves. 
>  He brought several proofs (IIRC from the Shelah and the 
> Rambam) to demonstrate this.  According to this view, the 
> days of Elul are  not necessarily secondary to the aseres 
> ymei tshuvah.

But they could be. Did you get the impression he felt otherwise? In fact
(as you mentioned Rambam), the Rambam Hil. Tshuvah 2:6 specifically
states: "...during the ten days between RH and YK, [tshuvah] is especially
fitting and is immediately accepted, as it is stated: 'dirshu Hashem
b'hi'matz'o.'" Also Rambam 3:4 states that Jews have accepted the minhag
"to increase tzedakah and maasim tovim and to engage in mitzvos from RH
until YK in excess [of how they do this] the entire year...."

Kol tuv,
Moshe

From: Akiva Miller
> But now I'm back to my previous question: WHY is the ikkar deliberately
> delayed until the Y'mei HaDin have already begun? Why isn't the ikkar
> emphasis on doing the teshuva *beforehand*?

If by IKKAR you refer to Pas Palter, perhaps we are not to eat Pas Palter
in AYT, not for Teshuva reasons, but rather for Taharah reasons. It is
clear that the focus on Teshuva starts before Yemai HaDin - Dirshu Hashem
B'HimatzO goes on all of Elul. The arrangement of RH before YK is to
assist us in this task by an effective progression of emotion manipulation
(fear, anxiety, hope, more anxiety, more hope etc...) to put us in the
right place on YK. The fact that Pas Palter is not restricted in Elul
is because during Elul, Chazal wanted HKBH to see what we can do on
our own, without "required" behavior modification. When the "chips are
down", during the last few days, by not eating Pas Palter, perhaps we
are cleansing ourselves, making us more eligible and more receptive to
improvement, and thereby more deserving of Selicha.

KT
Stuart Goldstein  
Kesivah V'Chasimah Tovah !

During a recent discussion with a woman from a Chasidische group,
I found out some information that I think needs to be considered:

The discussion started with the question of using pills to "assist"
in achieving a wedding without Chupat Niddah. When I said that we are
supposed to follow halacha and determine the wedding date according to
the Kallah, she told me the following:
a) Nobody has a Veset Kavu'a anymore
b) Nobody asked her when to have the wedding, actually she thinks her
Chatan and his parents deteremined the date.

When I claimed that in all my years as a Kallah councellor I have never
seen a woman who didn't have a Veset Kavu'a of some type, she described
her situation: apparently she doesn't have a VK and she offered to give
me her Yoman to prove her point.

During the discussion she said "MeiSi'Ach LeFi Tumo" that such and
such happens every month and exactly 2 days later she becomes Niddah.
When I said that this is "Veset HaGuff" -- she didn't know what I was
talking about, she had never heard about "Veset HaGuff" (I sent her to
her Rabbi to confirm this).

A few things have become apparent (and not just from this discussion):

First, that the PILL, in various combinations, is being pushed on girls
without sufficient medical investigation (some girls aren't even asked
their medical background), and without warning the girls about possible
side effects or long term effects. The idea of the Segula of pregnancy
on the wedding night is not even discussed with the women.

Second, I have asked various doctors who are involved in fertility and
know the halacha and they agreed that the majority of women do have
some kind of VK, though they may be complex. As an example, I know of
a bride whose VK was a cycle of 24-27-27 days that repeated itself.

Third it has become prevalent to set a wedding date without asking the
bride and then taking it for granted that she will dose herself with
these hormones to achieve the requested date without Chuppat Niddah.

As there are many parents on this group who are in the Parsha, I think
it was important that this issue be brought to your attention.

Shanna Tova,
Shoshana L. Boublil

While I understand that a wedding date *should* be set according to
the kallah, do young women regularly keep track of their cycles before
marriage/while in the "parshah"? Are they instructed to keep a calendar
(and if so, by whom)? I doubt it (but please correct me if I'm wrong).

Thus, I assume that the increasing reliance on the pill to ensure that
there won't be a chuppas nidah stems from the reality that, often,
a kallah really has no idea when her next period is expected. (And I
would suspect that the ignorance as to niddah cycles is more prevelant
in Chasidische circles.)

KT, Gut Shabbos and KvCT
Aryeh

From: "Stein, Aryeh" <AStein@wtplaw.com>
> While I understand that a wedding date *should* be set according to
> the kallah, do young women regularly keep track of their cycles before
> marriage/while in the "parshah"? I doubt it (but please correct me if
> I'm wrong).

You're wrong.

> often, a kallah really has no idea when her next period is expected.  

Um, do women who are menstruating, even if not married or kallos or in
the parasha, (or not frum or not Jewish) get taken by surprise?

I think that (sorry) you are again wrong. They may not know the exact
expected veses according to all the shitos, but within a day or two,
they know when to expect.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

From: "Shoshana L. Boublil" <toramada@bezeqint.net>
> Nobody has a Veset Kavu'a anymore

I was told this many years ago by a posek who is very well known in the field;  I have heard it from other rabbanim as well.

> First, that the PILL, in various combinations, is being pushed on girls

This is true; the cases I am aware of where a shaila was asked, were
uniformly answered in the negative, i.e. not to use it in routine
circumstances. But it is too widely used with too little thought.
The phenomenon, BTW, is not at all a recent one.

> The idea of the Segula of pregnancy on the wedding night

Source?

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

SOMETHING TO WORRY ABOUT
It once happened during the Ten Days of Repentance that Rav Dov Ber of
Mezeritch encountered a friend of his who was at that moment the very
picture of gloomy despair.
Sighing and moaning heavily in between every word, the man said to the
tzaddik, "Oy, Rebbe, we have so many sins. Whatever will become of us?"
"The sins don't worry me," Rav Dov Ber replied, "because for sins we can do
teshuva. It's our mitzvos that give me pain. How will we face our King with
mitzvos such as these?"



RAV SHLOMO ZALMAN'S RESOLUTION
FOR THE NEW YEAR
Someone once asked Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, zt"l, if he had made any
resolutions for the new year.
"Yes," he replied. "This year I would like to recite the first bracha of the
Shemoneh Esrei with proper kavana."



Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

From: "Gil Student" <gil@aishdas.org> [the first pararagraph quotes
yours truly -mi]
>> I heard besheim R' Hutner that nusach Ashkenaz associates the SSY
>> to the mention of the tamid in the musaf "shemoneh esrei" rather than
>> combining it with shacharis that doesn't mention qorbanos at all.

> I think pashtus is that SSY was a later addition so it was "slapped
> on" at the very end of davening

Guess Rav Hutner disagrees that it was "slapped on", eh?

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

On Thu, Sep 05, 2002 at 10:33:17PM -0400, Gershon Dubin wrote:
: <<Dirshu Hashem B'HimatzO goes on all of Elul.>>

:         Not in my Gemara.  The Gemara (R"H 18a?) refers to behimatz'o
: as "eilu asara yamim".

The Rambam, however, says "behimatz'o" and "bihyoso qarov" refers to the
entire period from RC Elul to YK.

-mi

IMHO, the compoarison is almost akin to basic training, boot camp spring
training and training camp as training for a war or real season. Elul
begins with Tehilim 27, the Shofar as a wake up clarion but not as
a mitzva and picks up real psychological speed and intensity with
Selichos. Look at the words and you will note a sense of isolation
and plea for our words to be accepted despite all of our many problems
which act as an iron curtain between HaShem and our selves. Erev RH we
start with tevila, a lot of Selichos and undestand that we differentiate
between the training season and the war by not blowing shofar. RH has
the high drama of Malchiyos, Zichronos and Shofros as well as the Torah
readings/haftaras which emphasize these themes. The Aseres Yimei Teshuvah
are the time when we strive the hardest to achieve a sense of taharah,
as opposed to just mechila. On Yom HaKippurim, we finally reach the
high levels of kavanah in Musaf and Neilah and literally trust that
our tears and prayers will reach HaShem.

May all of us have a Ksivah Vhasimah Tovah.
Steve Brizel
Zeliglaw@aol.com

********************


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