Avodah Mailing List

Volume 09 : Number 088

Wednesday, September 4 2002

• Re: Eating fish in treif restaurant
• Eating fish in treif restaurant
• Changes in studying Hashkofa
• re: "halachik intuition"
• FW: RE: lo bashamayim
• "early shabbat"=davening mincha and maariv after plag but before shkia
• RE: Slits in Skirts... Tznius in Women's Clothing
• Re: Slits in Skirts - Tznius issues
• Re: Slits in Skirts - Tznius issues
• Re: Slits in Skirts...Tznius in Women's Clothing
• Eloka/Elokay
• Re: Eloka/Elokay
• Re: Kavanah problems
• More meaningful Tefilos
• Re: More meaningful Tefilos
• Re: More meaningful Tefilos
• More meaningful Tefilos
• More meaningful Tefilos
• Re: More meaningful Tefilos
• SSY
• Re: SSY
• Re: "early shabbat"=davening mincha and maariv after plag but before shkia
• Re: Aval davening on aseres yemei tshuvah
• RE: Eating fish in treif restaurant
• Re: Shofar after Maariv during Elul

kennethgmiller@juno.com wrote:
>  When
> they wrote that "stam keilim ainam bnei yoman", what sort of situations
> was it for, if not eating from the kitchen of a non-Jew or a non-frum
> Jew?

One would think that the klal "stam keilim einan bnei yoman" might
not apply in a restaurant where all keilim get an intensive work out.
OTOH you'd hope they wash the keilim with soap in hot water between uses,
so the taam might be pagum anyway.

> But even if it is, bishul akum is only d'rabanan,
> as R' Moshe Feldman posited in his query.

Isn't there some sort of loophole for shaas hadchak? I have a vague
recollection that the poskim do discuss travellers in towns with no
kosher food, and offer some kulos for that case.

> I
> don't know at what point in history bishul akum became a halacha to be
> careful about,

check out what chazal say about Daniel & Co. not eating "mipath bag
hamelech". I suspect it's a halacha kdumah.

> but the involvement of even a single
> Jew throwing a single splinter into the fire would remedy that fear
> of leading to intermarriage.

I believe that's a later kulla (peculiar to ashkenazim). I suspect
you'll find that the original g'zeirah was very strict, and the conditions
you're mentioning were later imposed to make the gzeirah more liveable.
As a comparison see the Rambam's sketch (IIRC) of how the laws of muktza
gradually became more lenient.

David Riceman

From: kennethgmiller@juno.com
> When they wrote that "stam keilim ainam bnei yoman", what sort of
> situations was it for, if not eating from the kitchen of a non-Jew or
> a non-frum Jew?

Milk and meat.

> My point in this paragraph is that from a *keilim* perspective, fish
> in a treif restaurant might actually be mutar even d'rabanan, not only
> d'Oraisa, especially if this particular restaurant was closed yesterday
> for whatever reason.

That would make it a nosen ta'am lifgam, still osur to do lechatchila.
IOW, you cannot take a keli that's not ben yomo of treif and cook in it
lechatchila. Same for ben yomo of milk to meat and VV; fish in a treife
restaurant is at least still assur lechatchila.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

I have recently come across a number of statements regarding **changes**
in attitude towards study of hashkofa.

Two statements concerning studying hashkofa seforim such as Kuzari

1) Chavis Ya'ir (#124) states that even though in previous times they
were studied but now we keep far from such studies and it is a good thing.
2) R' Yaakov Emden writes that his father - the Chachom Tzvi told him
that in Poland the roshei yeshiva required such study.

Both the Chavis Ya'ir and the Chachom Tzvi lived at the same time.

Were they describing differences between Germany and Poland or were the
distinctions much more localized?

Similarly I found in the Nesivos Shalom that while intellectual analysis
of hashkofa was at one time acceptable - but since the revelation of
the Zohar and other works of Kabbala as well the Baal Shem Tov that it
was no longer needed.

Finally Rav Elchonon Wasserman (Kovetz Shiurim 2 46:9) notes that there
had been legitimate differences concerning the role of philosophical
thought in Hashkofa but that today we can't handle it and it should
be avoided.

Are there any other sources which talk about changes in learning hashkofa
and the rationale behind them?

                Daniel Eidensohn

R' Micha Berger wrote on Avodah <<< I have yet to be convinced that
intuition is a claim of linkage to shamayim. >>>

This post does not address the role of intuition in paskening, which
the original thread addressed. But I do want to voice my views on the
concept of "intuition" in general.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "linkage", but I am fascinated
by Chapter 6 of Rav Aryeh Kaplan's "The Handbook of Jewish Thought",
entitled "Inspiration". Here are some excerpts:

"The lowest level of inspiration is divine guidance that is granted to a
person without his knowledge..." (6:18) "The next degree of revelation is
Divine Inspiration, Ruach HaKodesh. On this level, a person is consciously
aware of G-d's guidance..." (6:21) "There are many levels of Divine
Inspiration. The highest degree is just below actual prophecy..." (6:27)
"A low level of Divine Inspiration was a bath kol... Even after message
bearing Divine Inspiriation ceased to exist, a bath kol could deliver a
clear, unambiguous message." (6:29-30) "The next degree of revelation
istrue prophecy, nevuah..." (6:39) "... the mechanism of prophecy
resembles that of a dream... dreams are therefore spoken of as a touch
of prophecy..." (6:67-68) [Obviously, his source notes published there
will be very helpful to anyone who wants to investigate this more deeply.]

I think that what we call "intuition" falls somewhere on this spectrum.
The low end, granted, but on it somewhere.

In fact, my personal feeling is to go even a little bit further. Bechira
chafshis is a concept which transcends physical determinism. For that
reason alone, I can't help but believe that the decision-making process
is inherently related to the brain's role as an interface between
the physical and spiritual worlds, -- or in simpler English, that any
original thought (such as the act of making a free-willed choice) is a
very bottom-of-the-barrel form of nevuah.

Akiva Miller

>I was listening to a tape from R' Frand where he quoted a Chidah
>explaining why we could have things like Tshuvot min hashamayim. The
>gist of it was Lo bashamayim he only applies when the halachik process
>can reach resolution (eg yachid vs. rabbim) but if not, then can rely
>on dreams etc.

I seem to recall that the chiluk is as follows: "lo bashamayim" means
that we don't listen to a bas kol which is telling us how to pasken.
However, if the whole basis for the uncertainty as to how to pasken is
because we don't know the underlying facts, then we _can_ listen to a
bas kol which is telling us, l'ma'aseh, what actually happened/what are
the facts.

I forget where I heard this, but the speaker then proceeded to cite
example after example to prove his point.

KT and Kesiva v'Chasima Tova
Aryeh

We've discussed this before but I'm curious as to how you (or your
favorite posek) would answer the following question: All else being equal
(ie the questioner has no reason for a preference) is halacha "neutral"
as to whether to make early shabbat as above or make it bzmano? Why?

KVCT
Joel Rich

> This issue has been discussed before. I have always been at a loss as
> to why issues of Tznius in dress have been so ridgedly interpreted by
> some of our Batei Yaacov.

And *I* have been at a loss why issues of Tznius in dress have been so
*loosely* interpreted by some non-beis-Yaakovers.

> IS Tznius or not, and worst an attempt assert one's own personal views
> as Halacah P'Suka on unsophisticated young minds who will then teach it
> as Halacha P'Suka to the next generation without ever questioning it.

Why do you assume the teachers are acting on their own "personal views"?
Maybe they are acting according to the halachic instructions they received
from the schools posek?

(I KNOW that this is the case with the Beis Yaakovs my daughters have
attended.)

Furthermore -- WHY should they teach the girls that there are other
opinions? Judaism is NOT a democracy where the Am decide for themselves
which opinion they want to follow. I assume that the Posek knows the
other opinions, and ruled against them.

Akiva

Harry Maryles holds forth: 
> I have always been at a loss as to why issues of Tznius in dress have
> been so ridgedly interpreted by some of our Batei Yaacov. In fact I
> believe that it is not taught but rather indoctrinated.

While I have also entertained my own share of questions regarding the
Tznius obsession in Beis Yaakov schools, I have usually focused on the
manner in which Tznius Hashkafos are forced down the girls' throats. I
have argued with BY high school principals that they have to find other
and more interesting means of motivating girls to WANT to dress with
Tznius, rather than receive a daily dose of "You must do it", without
further discussion.

Be that as it may, I am all for the BY "rigid interpretation" of Tznius
issues, for 2 reasons: 1) As a Harchaka. To flirt with the line at
which Tznius ends and Ervah begins serves no purpose at all; 2) To
completely remove BY girls from the equation. Any man with "Fleishige
Oigin" will tell you that it doesn't take much for his "radar" to pick
up exposed skin. When a man, even such a man, sees a BY girl with her
un-slit longish skirts, his radar doesn't even notice. She is invisible
to him. As a father of BY girls, I can't tell you how proud I am to see
my girls dress this way.

Does our culture gain anything by opening these issues up for discussion
? Women in western societies have to deal with the conflicts of showing
enough to feel attractive, but not too much. But their standard is
not so much personal as it is focused on propriety. They believe it
is not "appropriate" to dress "sluttishly" (if there is such a word)
in a business environment. But on a beach or in a park, anything goes,
because the environment allows it. Is that a standard worthy of Halachic
discussion ?

Indoctrination sounds like a terrible thing. But it seems to work well
in the U.S. Army. Does a sergeant encourage discussion when he gives his
troops orders ? Obviously, he wants them to blindly jump when he says
so because their immediate compliance may save their lives someday. If
we accept the rule that our lives depend on compliance with Halacha then
we should behave the same way, and teach our children to accept what we
teach them in that vein. Ultimately, all we have is Emunah. You can't
PROVE anything that is based on Emunah.

Stuart Goldstein
Kesivah V'Chasimah Tovah !

Harry Maryles holds forth: 
> I have always been at a loss as to why issues of Tznius in dress have
> been so ridgedly interpreted by some of our Batei Yaacov. In fact I
> believe that it is not taught but rather indoctrinated.

While I have also entertained my own share of questions regarding the
Tznius obsession in Beis Yaakov schools, I have usually focused on the
manner in which Tznius Hashkafos are forced down the girls' throats. I
have argued with BY high school principals that they have to find other
and more interesting means of motivating girls to WANT to dress with
Tznius, rather than receive a daily dose of "You must do it", without
further discussion.

Be that as it may, I am all for the BY "rigid interpretation" of Tznius
issues, for 2 reasons: 1) As a Harchaka. To flirt with the line at
which Tznius ends and Ervah begins serves no purpose at all; 2) To
completely remove BY girls from the equation. Any man with "Fleishige
Oigin" will tell you that it doesn't take much for his "radar" to pick
up exposed skin. When a man, even such a man, sees a BY girl with her
un-slit longish skirts, his radar doesn't even notice. She is invisible
to him. As a father of BY girls, I can't tell you how proud I am to see
my girls dress this way.

Does our culture gain anything by opening these issues up for discussion
? Women in western societies have to deal with the conflicts of showing
enough to feel attractive, but not too much. But their standard is
not so much personal as it is focused on propriety. They believe it
is not "appropriate" to dress "sluttishly" (if there is such a word)
in a business environment. But on a beach or in a park, anything goes,
because the environment allows it. Is that a standard worthy of Halachic
discussion ?

Indoctrination sounds like a terrible thing. But it seems to work well
in the U.S. Army. Does a sergeant encourage discussion when he gives his
troops orders ? Obviously, he wants them to blindly jump when he says
so because their immediate compliance may save their lives someday. If
we accept the rule that our lives depend on compliance with Halacha then
we should behave the same way, and teach our children to accept what we
teach them in that vein. Ultimately, all we have is Emunah. You can't
PROVE anything that is based on Emunah.

Stuart Goldstein
Kesivah V'Chasimah Tovah !

>>>...Satmar Chasidim for example beleive that seemless stockings do
not fall within the parameters of Tznius and someone who wears such
"Durzeyifdikeh Zaken" violate Tznius issues. But it is a subjective
decision on their part and not a universally accepted one.>>>

>>>For a Beis Yaakov to categorically Assur slits below the kneecap as
a violation of Tznius seems to me, at the very least, to be a refusal to
recognize that there is room for disagreement as to whether it actually
IS Tznius or not, and worst an attempt assert one's own personal views
as Halacah P'Suka on unsophisticated young minds who will then teach it
as Halacha P'Suka to the next generation without ever questioning it.>>>

I think we are confusing two issues:

1) Does a Bais Yaakov have the right to assur students from wearing
slits below the kneecap in school, as part of the school's dress code?

2) Should teachers in Bais Yaakov teach their students that slits below
the kneecap are assur (a halacha p'suka)?

I think R' Harry would agree that a Bais Yaakov has the right to have and
enforce a dress code (just like Satmar), but that Bais Yaakov teachers
should not tell their students that slits are 100% assur.

If I am understanding R' Harry correctly, then I agree with him.
However, I *would* want the teachers to tell their students that,
while slits may not be asur al pi din, a bas yisroel should not *want*
to wear them since they are not befitting a bas melech.

KT and Kesivah v'Chasimah Tova 
Aryeh  

Milifney Eloka Yaakov.
Is there a difference between this and Elokay Yaakov?  What?

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

On Tue, Sep 03, 2002 at 10:09:03PM -0400, Gershon Dubin wrote:
: Milifney Eloka Yaakov.
: Is there a difference between this and Elokay Yaakov?  What?

(As pointed out by RSM on Mesorah, the sheim is "E-loak". The patach
sound comes before the hei's in a rule similar to that of "Noach".)

E-loak Yaaqov is the G-d of Jacob.

E-lokay is my G-d of all the forces (thus the lashon rabbim).

One stresses immanence, and in particular the ability to have a qesher
to HQBH via Ya'aqov's approach to avodah. (The "bayis", as opposed to
Avraham's "har" and Yitzchaq's "sadeh".) RYBS spoke numerous times about
how the avos were able to keveyachol acquire HQBH -- it actually refer's
to Yaaqov's G-d.

The other stresses transcendence.

A similar point is made by the Gra, when he explains how all of Birchas
Avos is based around "haKel haGadol haGibbor vehaNorah".

Baruch - HaKel: A statement of transcendence (yes, there are numerous
other shitos about what giving H' a berachah means)

Atah H' - haGadol: Who suffuses all of existance

E-lokeinu - haGibbor: Who shows restraint when it comes to dealing with
our folly (Eizehu gibbor?)

ve'E-lokei Avoseinu ... E-lokei Yaaqov - vehaNorah: But Who is also awe
inspiring when interacting with people who deserve more than hester
Panim.

The point of connection to your question is that haKel is given a very
different meaning than E-lokei Avoseinu. The posessive changes the
entire focus. Perhaps here too.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org            you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org       You light a candle.
Fax: (413) 403-9905             - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l

Aryeh Stein writes:
:> institutionalized betzibbur ? When they are said for special occasions
:> and not continuously, they seem to get much more kavonnoh...
: but I do know that I am not saying the tehillim after davening with
: nearly as much kavanah as I used to. 

I am no Tzadik but I don't seem to have this problem. 

Let me ask you how your Shemona Esreis are doing lately. Has the fact that
you say them 3 times every day for 20-50 years caused a waning of Kavanah
? Mine seem to take longer and longer (which is a different problem). As I
get older and life gets more and more complicated, I feel the imperative
of "Ain Lanu Al Mi L'Hishoain" more acutely. Self-preservation is the
key. If you have what you need in mind, and you believe that what you are
saying (Shemona Esrei, Tehillim, bentsching, whatever) will help you out,
it is not difficult to find the Kavanah. And don't feel guilty about it
either. HKBH wants you to do this.

KT
Stuart Goldstein
Kesivah V'Chasimah Tovah !

From: "Avroham Yakov" <avyakov@hotmail.com>
> I am back from the first night of slichos. But I can't exactly say
> that slichos are meaningful to me. I don't really understand what I am
> <saying. And even with an Artscroll, it does not do a lot for me....

When running low on Tefilah HisOrerus, I do the following:
1) Imagine this Tefilah was THE Tefilah that determined everything -
your whole future, career, family etc..;
2) Imagine you weren't going to get another chance - a-la Shuv Yom Echad
Lifnei Misascha;
3) Imagine that it takes intense concentration and focus on the words
(not yelling) to get the Tefilah all the way up to Shomayim.

A useful perspective during the Tefilos of Yomim NoRaim (IMHO), especially
when so much of it seems to be related NOT to our needs and wants, but
rather to HKBH's Malchus, is to imagine (and Sefarim say this - I think
it's Bnei Yisaschar) that there are Mekatrigim (Malochim who are "against"
us) that would like nothing better than to block our Tefilos from making
it up to the Kisei HaKavod. Therefore, when we "stuff" our Tefilos with
praises of HKBH, the Mekatrigim have to let such Tefilos in. That is
where we slip in the ones with our Bakashos. Although one must certainly
follow the Nusach HaTefilah, these Yemai Ratzon days should be full of
impromptu, spontaneous mini-Tefilos, and that's one of the ways to do it.

Stuart Goldstein        
Kesivah V'Chasimah Tovah !

> When running low on Tefilah HisOrerus, I do the following:
> 1) Imagine this Tefilah was THE Tefilah that determined everything - your
> whole future, career, family etc..;
> 2) Imagine you weren't going to get another chance - a-la Shuv Yom Echad
> Lifnei Misascha; 
> 3) Imagine that it takes intense concentration and focus on the words (not
> yelling) to get the Tefilah all the way up to Shomayim.

Yasher koach for these tips. I'll share something that works for me during
this week before Rosh Hashanah (similar to the tips suggested above).

I always remember from the mussar shmoozen that I heard in yeshiva, that
the last seven days before Rosh Hashanah are special. How we act on the
Tuesday before Rosh Hashanah can be mechaper for all the times we acted
inappropriately on all of the Tuesdays of the year; how we act on the
Thursday before Rosh Hashanah can be mechaper for all the times we acted
inappropriately on all of the Thursdays of the year; and so and so forth.

So, this morning, for instance, I told myself that this Wednesday
morning shacharis can remedy all of the Wednesday morning shacharis
tefilos during the past year that were less than perfect. I find that
this helps me focus on the words of the various tefilos.

(This past Shabbos, I made the point over and over again to my kids and
our guests that this was the last shabbos of the year and that we should
make it special so as to remedy all of the shabbosos of the past year.
I made a point of washing and having bread for seudah shelishis and
melava malka.)

Kol Tuv and Kesivah v'Chasimah Tova
Aryeh

Aryeh Stein writes:
> I always remember from the mussar shmoozen that I heard in yeshiva, that
> the last seven days before Rosh Hashanah are special. How we act on the
> Tuesday before Rosh Hashanah can be mechaper for all the times we acted
> inappropriately on all of the Tuesdays of the year...

Exactly.

I think there is one small but VERY significant point that doesn't seem to
get across in the "last-minute Rosh HaShanah preparations". Theoretically,
HKBH should be watching to see how we have changed UP UNTIL Rosh HaShanah,
to decide if we are more deserving. Everybody is going to be davening
their eyes out on RH & YK and probably refraining from LH while they're
at it. But what we accomplish and demonstrate in the waning days of Elul
is a truer indication of our future intentions. Let's hope HKBH is not
so exacting.

Kol Tuv.
Stuart Goldstein 
Kesivah V'Chasimah Tovah !

From: "Stein, Aryeh" <AStein@wtplaw.com>
> the last seven days before Rosh Hashanah are special. How we act on
> the Tuesday before Rosh Hashanah can be mechaper for all the times we
> acted inappropriately on all of the Tuesdays of the year

Not to detract from the mussar value of this approach, isn't the
traditional approach that each day of aseres yemei teshuva the FIRST of
the Sundays, Mondays, etc. of the year?

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

From: "Stein, Aryeh" <AStein@wtplaw.com>
> the last seven days before Rosh Hashanah are special. How we act on
> the Tuesday before Rosh Hashanah can be mechaper for all the times we
> acted inappropriately on all of the Tuesdays of the year

Not to detract from the mussar value of this approach, isn't the
traditional approach that each day of aseres yemei teshuva the FIRST of
the Sundays, Mondays, etc. of the year?

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

On Wed, Sep 04, 2002 at 03:38:49PM +0000, Gershon Dubin wrote:
: Not to detract from the mussar value of this approach, isn't the
: traditional approach that each day of aseres yemei teshuva the FIRST of
: the Sundays, Mondays, etc. of the year?

Charata or azivas hacheit at the end of the year vs qabbalah al ha'asid
at the begining?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org            you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org       You light a candle.
Fax: (413) 403-9905             - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l

From: Elazar M Teitz <remt@juno.com>
> of course SSY is said only in the morning. 

Why is shir shel yom not said at Mincha?

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

On Wed, Sep 04, 2002 at 05:01:20PM +0000, Gershon Dubin wrote:
: Why is shir shel yom not said at Mincha?

Bizman shebeis hamiqdash hayah qaram, the leviim sang the SSY during
the qorban tamid, not the minchah.

Which is why nusachei Sefarad, haGra, "Sfard", and Ari have SSY
before qeri'as hatorah rather than after musaf.

I heard besheim R' Hutner that nusach Ashkenaz associates the SSY
to the mention of the tamid in the musaf "shemoneh esrei" rather
than combining it with shacharis that doesn't mention qorbanos
at all.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org            you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org       You light a candle.
Fax: (413) 403-9905             - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l

Joelirich@aol.com wrote:
> We've discussed this before but I'm curious as to how you (or your
> favorite posek) would answer the following question: All else being equal
> (ie the questioner has no reason for a preference) is halacha "neutral"
> as to whether to make early shabbat as above or make it bzmano? Why?

The Chovos HaLevavos somewhere says that there are no actions about
which the Torah is neutral. There are some for which there are uniform
norms, which we call halachoth, and others for which the preferences
are individual rather than uniform. In those latter cases halacha
neither prescribes nor proscribes the action, and the actor is obliged
to determine what the Torah's preference is.

One can then ask to what extent poskim are obliged to make this
distinction clear. The person I normally consult does it very explicitly,
in the form "X is mutar but I suggest that you avoid it because of Y."
But he doesn't do that with everyone who asks him sheiloth. I imagine
it's another example of the same phenomenon.

David Riceman

From: Gershon Dubin 
> In my local shtibl, they do not permit an avel to daven for the amud
> during Aseres Yemei Teshuva. That applies to all 3 tefilos.

> In the same shul, they do permit the avel to daven for the amud during
> Selichos, but not for Selichos themselves. Does anyone have a source
> for this?

the sources is the Mateh Efraim, who mentions the minhag of an avel not
davening for the amud ASERES YEMEI TSHUVAH. he doesn't say anything
about not davening during selichos before RH

I hope no one is taking this discussion too seriously. The only thing I've
learned fro it is that ignorance of facts still doesn't present an obstacle
to anyone offering an opinion about kashrus.

(this point not directed specifically at this or any other particular
poster.)

Virtually every post I have read on this topic has been written based on the
acceptance as fact of certain inaccuracies.

BTW, if anyone ever needs to know how to eat kosher in a treif restaurant
please contact me off list.

Kt
sk

Stuart Klagsbrun
Credit Manager
AGT seven

On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, Stein, Aryeh wrote:
> The Mateh Ephraim ("ME") mentions that it used to be the minhag in certain
> places (including, but not limited to, Prague) for the shofar to be blown
> (not only after shacharis in the morning but also) at night, after maariv...
> I am curious:  Is anyone aware of any communities where they blow the shofar
> at night after maariv during Elul?

I can't tell you about Maariv, but it may be linked to when L'david Hashem 
Ori is said. I davened mincha today at Beilinson hospital. They daven 
nusach Sefarad. Before saying L'David, the rabbi blew TaShRat on the 
shofar.

Ari

********************


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