Avodah Mailing List

Volume 09 : Number 008

Monday, March 25 2002

• Re: Korbonos l'osid lovo..
• Re: emunas chachomim
• Fwd: RICE.TXT
• grape botany - source for additional info
• Re: emunas chachomim
• Re: emunas chachomim
• Chochom is superior to a prophet
• Re: Gilgul and Reason
• Freedom
• Re: Taanos B'choros
• Re: Some Pesach Yom Kippur Parallels
• Re: Adas Yisrael and Sanhedrin
• Re: Kashrut
• Re: Ben Olam Haba (was: what we daven for?)
• recorded music during sefirah
• Re: Korbonos l'osid lovo..
• Re: Taanos B'choros
• Re: Segulos

At 10:24 PM 3/21/02 +1100, SBA wrote:
>So tell us how does RAYK explain the 'vehosheiv es ho'avodo'
>and "veshom naaseh lefonecho es korbonos chovosenu.." and similar
>tefilos?

Huh?

What did you answer to yourself when you posted the Medrash?

Kol Tuv,
YGB
ygb@aishdas.org      http://www.aishdas.org/rygb

I was just wondering about the origin and meaning of the term "emunas
chachomim." When did it make its first appearance? Whom was it applied
to, Chazal or the chachomim of each generation? What precisely is the
set of normative beliefs about the chachomim (whoever they may be)
that is subsumed under this term?

To the extent that I have anyone's attention, I would also encourage
haveirim in search of divrei torah and hearot about the haggadah to
visit www.dorrevii.org and follow the Shivivei Eish link to find several
wonderful divrei torah of the Dor Revi'i on the haggadah.

Hag kasher v'sameah to all.

David Glasner
dglasner@ftc.gov

This is from a shiur in medical halacha we recently had at the hospital:


   If one is gluten intolerant, one should make an effort to find oat
   or spelt matza. If, however, one can't obtain non-wheat matza, one is
   exempt from the requirement of eating matza the first night of Pessach
   (see: Chazon Ovadiah 173). If one's physician prohibited the person
   from eating gluten matza and the person ate wheat matza in spite of
   the warning, he has not fulfilled the mitzva (see: SHU"T Mahari Asad
   OC 160; Tzitz Eliezer XII 43 and the eating is called an *aveira*
   [see: Maharam Shick OC 260; Minchat Yitzchak IV 102 #2]. It is even
   forbidden to make a bracha over the matza (see: Mahari Asad Orach
   Chaim 160). See also: Sdei Chemed, Maarechet Chametz U'Matza 14:14).

   Gluten-sensitive enteropathy can present with devastating
   malabsorption, steatorrhea, diarrhea, weight loss, as well as
   extraintestinal manifestations such as: osteopenic bone disease,
   secondary hypopituitarism, adrenal insufficiency, purpura,
   hyperpigmentation, peripheral neuropathy, xerophthalmia, dermatitis,
   secondary hyperparathyroidism, bleeding, microcytic or macrocytic
   anemia, and edema.

   For an Ashkenazi ill person who is gluten sensitive and requires a
   rice (kitniyot) diet, there is a leniency provided the following is
   carried out:

   1) a special pot is reserved for the rice (and set aside special
      dishes);

   2) the rice is cooked by placing it in boiling water (one is not
      permitted to place cold water and rice in a pot and then heat
      to boiling);

   3) before cooking, the rice is checked grain by grain for presence
      of any of the 5 forbidden grains [for anyone who has ever visited
      a wholesale grain market and has seen 200 pound sacks of rice in
      burlap bags, knows what I'm referring to].

     Marei mekomot: Chatam Sofer OC 122; Sdei Chemed Maarechet Chametz
                    u'Matza 6 # 10; Chayei Adam Klal 127 #6; Maharam Shick
                    OC 241; Melamed l'Ho'il OC 98; Kaf Ha'Chaim 453 # 27.


Josh

Dr. Josh Backon
Hebrew University
Faculty of Medicine
backon@vms.huji.ac.il

I was asked for more info -
Here is a good source, which I found via google -
http://www.botany.com/vitis.html

Mordechai

David Glasner wrote:
> I was just wondering about the origin and meaning of the term "emunas
> chachomim."

Isn't it in the (non-Mishnaic) sixth perek of Avos?

David Riceman

> I was just wondering about the origin and meaning of the term "emunas
> chachomim."

Brief check using DBS indicates the source is Avos 6:6. The phrase
produces the most hits in chasidic seforim. R' Moshe Chagiz - leading
opponent of the Ramchal - has an extensive discussion in his sefer
Mishnas Chochimim in a chapter on the subject.

                    Daniel Eidensohn

I am working my way through a thought provoking Lubavitsh sefer (Emunas
Chochomim by R Eliyahu Bakobza)discussing the nature of emunas chochomim
as based upon ruach hakodesh and nevuah. [He states in his introduction
that the Lubavtischer Rebbe is "without doubt a navi" and obviously
means it literally].

There is an apparent contradiction between the gemora in Yevamos 49b
which said only Moshe saw with the "clear lens" and the gemora Succah
(45b) which states that in each generation there are 36 tzadikim who see
with the "clear lens". The Maharsha (Succah 45b) reconciles the two by
the gemora Bava Basra 12a that a chochom is superior to a prophet. Thus
amongst the prophets only Moshe saw with the "clear lens" but amongst
the tzadikim and chomim there are many.

Aside from sources from the Alter Rebbe - I found that Rav Tzadok also
uses this principle literally to explain the gemora in Menachos that R'
Akiva understood things that Moshe did not - as well as the chazal that
things were revealed to R Akiva and chaverim that were not revealed
to Moshe.

It would seem from this tiny sample that in fact through chochma of
kabbala that the Rashbi and Arizal held that they could reach higher
levels than Moshe. I seem to recall that the Ramchal claimed that he in
fact had surpassed them.

In contrast the Gra held that the Arizal was not in those leagues nor
was the Ramchal.

This principle - as understood literally - allows for continuous
revelation beyond Sinai. Torah from heaven is the prophetic Torah while
the Oral law of the Chachom continues according to Rav Tzadok.

The thesis is that there are two types of prophecy - 1) prophecy which is
a direct communication from G-d and 2) the prophecy of the chachom. The
assertion - based upon Ramban in Bava Basra 12a is that gedolim still
have the second type of prophecy - which can be superior than the first.

The Meiri (Sanhedrin 11a) states that the prophecy of the chachomim
produced the sinas chinom from their refusal to pay attention to each
other - that led to the destruction of the Second Temple.An obvious
source for the Netziv's introduction to Bereishis]

Question: Is this issue of the literal understanding of the superiority of
a chochom compared to a prophet - even Moshe rabbeinu - a differentiating
princple between chassidus and misnagdim? Was it ever? Sources would
be appreciated.

                            Daniel Eidensohn

On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 09:32:00AM -0500, Gil Student wrote:
: Not at all. I do not claim to be able to decide which of the many
: rishonim on both sides is correct, even though the clear majority is on
: the side of gilgul.

"Clear majority"? I didn't think it was rov rishonim. Rov acharonim,
yes. But most rishonim that discuss existance after misah don't include
it in their description.

: The following is what R' Chasdai Crescas concludes after attempting to
: logically disprove the concept of gilgul (Or Hashem 4:7):
: "Since this group [that affirms gilgul] has its basis in tradition, the
: doors of investigation are closed to this topic. If it is a tradition
: we will accept it [cf. Mishnah, Yevamos 8:3] with a cheerful face."

Isn't this in itself the point under dispute? R' Saadia Gaon's rejection
is clearly based on the assumption that the idea was imported from other
religions, and did NOT have a mesorah.

RCC presumes that the Zohar on the begining of Mishpatim is from R'
Shim'on bar Yochai, therefore he presumes a mesorah. It could well
not be. R' Saadia clearly didn't think so. (And we've discussed RYE's
shitah that much of the Zohar is later accretion -- this could be a
case.)

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 For a mitzvah is a lamp,
micha@aishdas.org            And the Torah, its light.
http://www.aishdas.org                       - based on Mishlei 6:2
Fax: (413) 403-9905          

Pesach is described as the time of our freedom - cheirus. But at the same
time we were freed from Egypt only to becomes slaves of G-d. The gemora
Sanhedrin 105a describes the attempt of the Jews to claim freedom from
the covenant because of the exile. Jewish slaves are temporary because
we are slaves to G-d not to mankind which are slaves of G-d. On the
other hand Shabbos 88a indicates we were in fact free from observing
the Torah until Purim.

The clearest statement is in Avos 6:2 which says a person is only free if
he is constantly involved in Torah learning. - That would make Shavuos
the time of freedom not Pesach. Furthermore freedom is associated with
the Luchos - Eiruvin 54a. The commentaries on Avos say that Torah study
frees a person from physical desires - thus indicating that there was
no freedom for those not involved in Torah study.

The issues of derech cheirus - indicate that what is celebrated is our
physical freedom - but that would seem to indicate when we are in golus
or under the domain of a alien power i.e. Second Temple - then cheirus
does not exist.

Freedom from slavery seems to be the obvious basis for Pesach - but I
have not found any clear exposition about the nature of this freedom and
how it relates to either future enslavement to either G-d or man.Can a
person be both an eved and also free at the same time? Can a person be
free from G-d?

Bottom line - is slavery the opposite of cheirus or can they exist at
the same time?


                                Daniel Eidensohn

On Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 06:49:37AM -0800, Harry Maryles wrote:
: MiPi Shmuah from Rabbi Tzvi Finer:
...
: RSZA answers with the following. The fact is that the common perception of
: the reason for Taanis B'choros, that of fasting because G-d spared us from
: that Maka, is NOT the reason for the Taanis. The reason is because the
: B'chorim lost the Kahuna... the HALACHIC B'chorim. This is why B'Chorim
: fast and the reason we do it on erev Pesach is because that day was the
: busiest day in the year for Kohanim. ....                     The reason
: we are encouraged to have a Siyum is because the learning of Torah is
: the ultimate antidote to the loss and is the only way to compensate for
: this loss.

Reminds me of the comparison in avos between keser malchus, keser
kehunah, and keser Torah. Keser malchus aside for this discussion.
The keser Torah is both greater than kehunah, and (quite notably) not
reserved for a given group of people.

-mi

On Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 01:51:50PM -0500, RabbiRichWolpoe@aol.com wrote:
: in a related matter there are a set of parallels between Yom Kippur and
: Seder Night

In addition to the 5 in RRW's list: 6) Concluding with "leshanah haba'ah
biYrushalayim habenuyah".

RSBA posted an interesting Vayo'el Mosheh on it. Interesting both in
conclusion and in that the SR wrote somthing that could be discussed on
Mesorah. <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol06/v06n004.shtml#05>

His masqanah is that it's "leshanah haba'AH", with a stress on the
aleph. As Rashi tells us, this makes it lashon avar. The year that just
started should see us in Y'laim -- not next year.

That brings us to the yesod of their connection: both YK and Pesach are
right after the start of a new year (by different definitions of course),
and exist to start that year on the right track.

All of which reinforces RYGB's qol qorei to use this time between Rosh
Chodesh and Pesach (and beyond) to review our new year's resolutions
from Tishrei and rededicate ourselves to them.

(Writing this was just interrupted by word of yet another attack.)

To add my own two cents (and when don't I?):

I HIGHLY recommend trying this experiment, see if it doesn't impact your
entire life. I'm sure it's an idea (okay, two ideas) you heard before,
but this time PLEASE give it a try.

As REED writes, we live in an age of fusion. We live in such a religiously
impoverished time that we can't choose to follow this derech or that,
but need to take elements from everyone.

Both mussar and chassidus promote taking time off for contemplation.

In mussar, that time is for a cheshbon hanefesh.

I ask you again, PLEASE try this. Once a week, preferably on the weekend
so that it's easier to frame and recall what happened that week or to
get a tone for the week, take a mere 10 minutes to review your actions
and moods over the week. Compare them to your resolutions. Actually
measure your progress.

To frame this in terms of my talk at the MM: If our work is important
enough to warrant a status check and possible replanning every week,
how can we NOT invest similar effort in our avodas Hashem.

In chassidus, that time is spent in hisbonenus. (The difference is
typical of the road each took in that hashkafic fork.)

Pick a night, I guess in the middle of the week to better spread out the
chizuq in relation to the cheshbon hanefesh, to contemplate a pasuq or
ma'amar chazal about man's relationship to HQBH. Spend 10 minutes just
thinking about the quote and what it means, gleaning every aspect of
meaning, every association WRT one's own deveiqus, that one can.

In both cases, if it works for you and you gain from the experience, the
10 minutes will grow to 15 or 20. But as an original qibbul, let's not
aim at a tefisah merubah. Also, this contemplation of a pasuq or ma'amar
chazal is a major part of qabbalah al ha'asid after a cheshbon hanefesh.
(As noted in the sefer by that name.) However, if we're starting with
just a 10 minute span, we have to abbreviate the program.

Last, I'd like to hear in private email or on the Mussar Forum if anyone
tries this, and if so, how it worked (or didn't) for them. (If you email,
kindly mention if I can share it with the Mussar Forum anonymously.)

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 For a mitzvah is a lamp,
micha@aishdas.org            And the Torah, its light.
http://www.aishdas.org                       - based on Mishlei 6:2
Fax: (413) 403-9905          

On Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 01:26:44PM -0500, RabbiRichWolpoe@aol.com wrote:
: As far as Minhag goes, a Minhag that is ONLY the expression of the
: people is not what I would refer to a "binding minhag". Only a Minhag
: predicated on a Mesorah or Psak would have that standing. Kitniyos is
: a case of a binding Minhag <pun most definitely intended BTW}

Rishona'i hi!

Didn't we already establish that this is the Rambam's shitah, since
he talks about a "beis din ... shehinhigu minhag" in Mamrim 2:2?

On Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 01:47:18PM -0500, RabbiRichWolpoe@aol.com wrote:
: Is it really such a big extrapolatoin to say that NOw - following the
: Churban and in the absence of a bona fide Sanhedrin - that the Davar is
: chozer leyoshno and that we fall back to the idea of Adas Yisrael as a
: authoritavie body - albeit with some limitations and caveats?

You might want to check back to the early digests of v2. This is the
Dor Revi'i's shitah. But there was a hefty debate involving the
citations of various rishonim and the CI.

We also find Sanhedrin as representative of Klal Yisrael in buying
qorbanos tzibbur and in qiddush hachodesh. It would be consistant
(as I argued in v2) to say that's the source of their qo'ach for
takkanos (speaking broadly of gezeiros, dinim and minhagim) as well.

To add to that -- but not necessarily for pesaq. Pesaq is a power
that a contemporary rav can hold.

This would explain the different in power to repeal between Mamerim
2:1 (pesaq) and 2:2-3 (takkanos).

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 For a mitzvah is a lamp,
micha@aishdas.org            And the Torah, its light.
http://www.aishdas.org                       - based on Mishlei 6:2
Fax: (413) 403-9905          

On Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 03:02:02PM -0500, Gil Student wrote:
: >Okay, you're right, but how do you know for sure that they are 
: >unfertilized?

: Rov.

Isn't it really two rovim? Rov are unfertilized, and of the mi'ut, rov
won't have blood spots.

On Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 04:18:48PM -0500, Gil Student wrote:
: See my summary in vol. 6 #3 of an article by R' Hershel Schachter...
: When the probability is less than 10% then there is no obligation to verify.

I'm wondering why we need 10%.

If sefeik sefeika is grounds for heter, wouldn't compounded rovim be lo
kol shekein even if they don't get you to 90%?

Or, to put it another way, when do you follow rules like sefeik sefeika,
and when do you just look at the resulting odds?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 For a mitzvah is a lamp,
micha@aishdas.org            And the Torah, its light.
http://www.aishdas.org                       - based on Mishlei 6:2
Fax: (413) 403-9905          

On Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 04:39:04PM +0000, kennethgmiller@juno.com wrote:
: R' Micha Berger asked <<< A side question: How does a "ben olam habah"
: differ from all of BY who "yeish lahem cheileq le'olam haba"? >>>

: Citizen vs. permanent resident?

Since OhB doesn't actually hand out green cards, I assume you mean this
as a mashal. What would the nimshal be?

On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 10:22:36AM +0200, Carl and Adina Sherer wrote:
: I think "yeish lahem chelek" is how you start out - but you can blow 
: it. After all the Mishna goes on to enumerate people who don't have a 
: chelek. A "ben olam haba" is someone who is assured a place. 

Except that Hillel tells us that no one can be assured of themselves ad
yom mosecha. Wouldn't that include not be assured of a place?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 For a mitzvah is a lamp,
micha@aishdas.org            And the Torah, its light.
http://www.aishdas.org                       - based on Mishlei 6:2
Fax: (413) 403-9905          

From: gil.student@citicorp.com
> A senior colleague of mine told me that RSZA permitted attendance at a 
> classical concert during Sefira or 12 chodesh of avelut for a parent (R"L). 

>I heard in the name of R. Hershel Schachter from RYBS that it is permitted to 
>listen to music during sefirah or aveilus for intellectual purposes, i.e. to 
>study the inner workings of the musical pieces....

Hello, 

I found this in the archives from last year. I just asked one of my
rebbeim, who said that R' Aharon Soleivechik zt"l altogether permitted
listening to recorded music during sefirah. I was wondering if anyone
knows the opinions of RHS or R' Mordechai Willig regarding listening to
recorded music (at home, in the car, at work) during sefirah and could
repeat them here. Any information about the three weeks bein hametzorim?

Thanks,
Avraham Cohen

In Avodah V9 #7, SBAbeles wrote:
> However, the question then is what is the meaning of our tefila 3
> times daily "Vehosheiv es ho'avodo lidvir veisecho, v'ishei yisroel..."?

Given that you pause between "vaisecho" and "v'ishai Yisroel" (those
who don't consider "v'ishai Yisroel" a continuation of "ho-avoda"),
you might be able to answer your own question, as "v'ishai Yisroel" is
then connected to "u-s'filasam," hence the explanation that it refers
to people, not korbanos, and specifically to tzadikim, and especially
when they have passed on from this world.

All the best (including wishes for a "great" Shabbos!) from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ

Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
>: MiPi Shmuah from Rabbi Tzvi Finer:
 ...
>: RSZA answers with the following....e Taanis. The reason is because the
>: B'chorim lost the Kahuna... the HALACHIC B'chorim. This is why B'Chorim
>: fast and the reason we do it on erev Pesach is because that day was the
>: busiest day in the year for Kohanim. ....                    The reason
>: we are encouraged to have a Siyum is because the learning of Torah is
>: the ultimate antidote to the loss and is the only way to compensate for
>: this loss.

> Reminds me of the comparison in avos between keser malchus, keser
> kehunah, and keser Torah. Keser malchus aside for this discussion.
> The keser Torah is both greater than kehunah, and (quite notably) not
> reserved for a given group of people.

Excellent additional proof for RSZA's argument for why we seek a Siyum
on a Mesechta.

HM

RDR is correct in that I use terminology pretty idiosyncratically, so that
half of my conclusion was presumed in my wording.

So, let me step back a moment and see if we can salvage this merry-go-round.

On Tue, Mar 19, 2002 at 11:17:09AM -0500, David Riceman wrote:
: No, this time I think you miss my point. You have attempted to harmonize
: three families of concepts: kabbalistical concepts like gilui panim and
: hester panim and olamos haelyonim, popular concepts like segulos, and
: Newtonian (for lack of a better term) concepts like teva (by which you
: mean the modern model, not the Aristotelian model)....

I had said earlier in this thread that I was artificially defining segulos
to refer to rules about the effects of non-physical causality. A catch-all
for things that are both not sechar va'onesh nor teva.

(BTW, hakol biydei Shamayim has two endings: chutz miyir'as shamayim
and chutz mitzinim upachim. I guess you'd classify these causal chains
as akin to tzinim upachim.)

To get back to my point, these things aren't merely "popular
concepts". They appear in the gemara. Advice about pregnant women and
cracks or donkey urine. Our example. Vechulu.

The sources of emes that are thus identified: Toras nigleh, nistar and
science, must coexist. The Newtonian revolution means that we have a new
model for teva, and the same model must be able to coexist alongside
Kabbalah, since it too is emes. Somehow the mesorah we have recieved
in Aristotilian terms must be able to make sense in the new scientific
language.

Perhaps this is a better place to start than where I did, that this
dilemma -- Kabbalah in a universe that has many more than four elements,
post-Copernicus and the discovery that even the sun isn't the center,
in which momentum is conserved, not created by intellect, and all the
other changes in worldview from what is assumed in the sifrei Kabbalah --
underlies mine.

: makes several assumptions: it assumes
: (1) there is a mechanism teva
: (2) segulos work using a different mechanism than teva

(2) isn't an assumption, it's a definition. It might not be the standard
definition of segulah, but it's the one I gave toward the top of the
conversation. I did mention at the time that it was idiosyncratic, as
I giving a full definition difficult.

: (3) observing segulos gives you more information about spiritual things
: than you would get living a normal life

(3) is a consequence of (2). Stripping out the jargon I built up in
the last month, it boils down to: Observing the effects of predictable
spiritual forces gives you more information about spiritual things than
you would get living a normal (i.e. only subject to those forces manifest
on a physical plane) life.

: (4) this extra information reduces your bechira.

I also find (4) to be a consequence, not an assumption.

It's a consequence of (3), and of the assumption that bechirah includes
choosing whether or not one believes one is more than merely a bright
mammal. This model of bechirah is found pretty far back, though.

:> Why? Just because the rambam speaks of a continuum, someone who agrees
:> with another nequdah of his does?

: No, because he quotes a couple of sentences almost word for word.

On one point. In any case, the continuum vs discrete thing is a tangent
that has little to do with my question. I can ask why there is a spectrum
along which various kochos lie as much as I can ask why there are discrete
olamos in which various kochos can be found.

BTW, since one does name 4 olamos or groups of olamos, I presume the Ramban
have these be fuzzy sets (using the phrase non-technically). Otherwise
the existance of a set implies discrete entities that can either belong
to one or the other of the four.

:> In any case, your model doesn't explain Abayei's chaqira. He explicitly
:> says that the connection between spilled beer (which I guess you /should/
:> cry over) and povberty is NOT teva but INSTEAD it's segula.

: I don't recall the terms teva or segula in that gemara. It is you who
: assign it that particular theoretical superstructure...

But I'm asking about the notion, not the word "segulah". As I said, I was
calling the notion "segulah" only because I needed something to call it.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 The mind is a wonderful organ
micha@aishdas.org            for justifying decisions
http://www.aishdas.org       the heart already reached.
Fax: (413) 403-9905          

*******************


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