Avodah Mailing List

Volume 09 : Number 007

Thursday, March 21 2002

• Re: kashrut
• haggada authorship
• Re: haggada authorship
• Re: newspapers on Shabbat
• Re: Kashrut
• Chol HaMoed Get Together
• Parshas Zachor and tekias Shofar
• Parshas Zachor and tekias Shofar
• Re: Parshas Zachor and tekias Shofar
• Women and Parshat Zakhor
• Toras Hagadah III
• Re: Eliyahu's cup
• Re: Eliyahu's cup
• Three Shidduchim
• grape botany
• Re: haggada authorship
• Re: Ben Olam Haba (was: what we daven for?)
• Re: newspapers on Shabbat
• Kitniyot
• Gilgul and Reason
• Korbonos l'osid lovo..
• Fwd: Areivim Digest V9 #27
• Korbonos l'osid lovo..
• Re: Korbonos l'osid lovo..
• Re: Korbonos l'osid lovo..
• RE: Kitniyot
• RE: Kitniyot
• Kol Koreh

Rena wrote:
>Okay, you're right, but how do you know for sure that they are 
>unfertilized?

Rov.

Gil Student

Generally IIRC the Haggadah is ascribed to anshei knesset hagdola -
there's a machloket in the gemora (pesachim 116) as to where to begin
and we also know the ac"h were mitaken tfilot etc(brachot 32). Does
anyone know of any sources which discuss when the text we have today
(not just the bare bones) reached it's current state and who contributed
(if it wasn't fixed in its current state by the Ac"h)

KT
Joel

On Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 03:17:54PM -0500, Joelirich@aol.com wrote:
:                                                Does anyone know of any 
: sources which discuss when the text we have today (not just the bare bones) 
: reached it's current state and who contributed (if it wasn't fixed in its 
: current state by the Ac"h)

I assume you mean Maggid, I'm sure Hillel didn't say "zeicher limiqdash
keHillel..." <grin> The whole stretch from Motzi to Tzafun would be
different with an actual korban. I also wonder if they did Yachatz,
as the half matzah is needed for afikoman, a commemorative act. Or is
Yachatz part of lechem oni, and we then took half for afikoman when the
need arose?

The amora'im argue over how much of tehillim is included in the Hallel
haGadol at the end of the unit of the seder called "Hallel". Also in
that unit is Nishmas, often attributed to a post-teshuvah Peter, and in
any case younger than AKhG.

So, on to maggid... (Which, now that I went back to proofread, did not
end up the majority of this post!)

Ha Lachma Anya was written by people who weren't in EY -- "leshana haba'ah
be'ar'a diYisrael".

OTOH, we know that Mah Nishtanah underwent a change with churban bayis,
but was basically there.

If you see the Rambam's haggadah, you find that Rav's and Shemu'el's
answers to Mah Nishtanah are reversed. First "Bitchilah ovdei AZ" and
only later "Avadim hayinu".

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 A cheerful disposition is an inestimable treasure.
micha@aishdas.org            It preserves health, promotes convalescence,
http://www.aishdas.org       and helps us cope with adversity.
Fax: (413) 403-9905                - R' SR Hirsch, "From the Wisdom of Mishlei"

"Stein, Aryeh" wrote:

> I don't know that reading a newspaper *necessarily* constitutes bittul
> Torah anymore than taking a nap or shmoozing with friends constitutes
> bittul Torah.

It's not germane to the discussion but you remind me of an anecdote one of my
rebbeim told me.  The mashgiach of [your favorite yeshiva's name] wandered into
the Beis Midrash on Shabbos afternoon and found a couple of boys chatting
instead of learning.  Here's the dialogue.

Mashgiach: "Don't you boys know that the rashei teivos shabbos indicate sheina
b'shabas taanug, meaning either shinun (of Torah) or sleeping?"
Boys: "Perhaps it's rashei teivos for sicha b'shabas taanug?"
Mashgiach: "Lev chacham l'ymino, v'lev ksil l'smolo."[meaning the dot on the
shin]

David Riceman

Micha Berger wrote:
>After learning the inyan, I figured that the issue was efshar levareir.

Moshe Feldman quoted from Michael Broyde's article:
>In addition, United States government regulations require that Grade A and 
>Grade AA table eggs be checked for blood spots in a process commonly 
>referred to as candling (although it is now done with an infrared light) 
>before eggs can be sold to the consumer as grade A or AA. Thus the 
>incidence of blood spotting in grade A or AA table eggs is very, very small 
>in the United States (perhaps as low as one in 1,000).

See my summary in vol. 6 #3 of an article by R' Hershel Schachter
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol06/v06n003.shtml#24>. When the
probability is less than 10% then there is no obligation to verify.
When the probability is less than 1% then even Rabbi Meir would not
be choshesh and we would be motzi mamon based on such a rov. When the
probability is less than 0.1% then we are not even choshesh for sakanah.

Gil Student

Adina and I wish to invite those of the Chevra who will be in Eretz
Yisrael for Pesach to the third annual Avodah/Areivim Chol HaMoed get
together at our home in Ramat Shlomo in Yerushalayim.

We are planning to the make the get together on Sunday afternoon,
the third day of Chol HaMoed (for those of you in Chu"l, we count Chol
HaMoed differently than you do :-) on the assumption that Birkas Kohanim
will be Sunday morning (first non-Yom Tov day for all), and that way
people planning on coming for Birkas Kohanim will have what to do in
the afternoon and not have to come in for another day to attend. No
promises, but in the past there has usually been a direct bus between
my neighborhood and the Kotel on Chol HaMoed.

If you are interested, please drop me an email. I will try bli neder to
find the maps on my computer that someone sent me last year, but I will
send directions bli neder to all who respond.

Please note that the food will likely not be as elaborate as it was
last year, so please don't count on making lunch out of it :-) We look
forward to seeing you!

-- Carl

mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

From: "Carl and Adina Sherer" <sherer@actcom.co.il>
<<According to my luach, for those who read the nesiim (our shul does 
not), the first few psukim of b'Haa'loscha should be read on the 13th 
of Nissan. >>

        Why?

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

From: Zeliglaw@aol.com
> ....... Shofar, as Tosfos in RH point out was a chivuv which all or most
> women accepted among themselves along with other mitzvos. 

See Shu"t "Salmas Chaim" (Sonenfeld) Siman 349 that sefira women were
"able" to accept on themselves since it is there abilty to do it without
anyones help, unlike Shofar. ad kahn.

Therefore the loshon concerning Shofar is usually "Nachas Ruach Lenoshim",
unlike sefira.

Chaim G. Steinmetz
cgsteinmetz@juno.com

From: "Carl and Adina Sherer" <sherer@actcom.co.il>
> <<According to my luach, for those who read the nesiim (our shul does 
> not), the first few psukim of b'Haa'loscha should be read on the 13th 
> of Nissan. >>

On 20 Mar 2002 at 19:02, Gershon Dubin wrote:
>         Why?

K'neged Levi. Ask my why davka Levi on Yud Gimmel - I don't know. 

But he brings the whole minhag in the name of the Shla, and says it's 
brought down in the Kaf HaChayim 429:22. I don't have a Kaf HaChayim 
handy....

-- Carl

For an extensive discussion of Women and Parshat Zakhor, See "WOMEN'S
PRAYER SERVICES - THEORY AND PRACTICE", Part 1: Theory by Aryeh
A. Frimer and Dov I. Frimer Tradition, 32:2, pp. 5-118 (Winter 1998).
Text p. 16-17 and 19-20 and Notes 82-84 and110-117. The article is
Available in Manuscript form at the site below; see text p. 7-9.
http://mail-jewish.org/Womens_Prayer_Service.doc

Chag Kasher ve-sameach
        Ar

--
Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer
E-mail: FrimeA@mail.biu.ac.il

In the Dayenu section of the Haggadah we come across the following:
"Even if we were only brought to Har Sinai and not given the Torah,
that would have been enough."

The question arises, of what benefit would it have been to just bring
us to Har Sinai and not given us the Torah?

R. Y. Z. Soloveichik answers that there was a great benefit in just
receiving the the Yiras HaShem that was generated by the experience of Har
Sinai, even without the reception of the Torah. The GRI'Z continues...
as it states in Sanhdrin (59) a Gentile that is Osek in Torah is Chaiv
Misah... Because it states "The Torah was commanded to us by Moshe as an
inheritance". That is to say it was given as an inheritance to US... and
not to Gentiles.

The Aruch HaShulchan in his Peirush on the Haggadah "Lel Shimurim" says
that the meaning of this phrase in "Dayenu" does not mean that the Torah
was not given to us at all. It was. The phrase: "Ilu Karvenu Lifnei Har
Sinai" reffers to the Gemmarah in Bava Metzia (59).

There the Gemmarah discusses the famous Machlokes between R. Elazar and
R. Yehoshua WRT to Tanur Achnai:

"A Bas Kol, ("heavenly voice") came down and stated the Halacha is in
accord with R. Elazar, whereupon R. Yehoshua stood up and declared:
Lo BaShamayim Hi! ...the Torah is not given in heaven! It was already
given (to man) on Har Sinai and we do not take heed of a Bas Kol. The
Torah tells us to follow majority rule."

So it is this that the phrase in Dayenu refers to. In fact the Torah and
every halacha could have been dictated to us in totality, leaving no room
for us to decide any issues at all. It could have all been transmitted
through Nevuah or Bas Kol. If it had brought us to this level, that is,
the level of bringing us to Har Sinai whereby the Torah would have been
transmitted to us through some sort of direct, prophetic circuit (or
the like)... Dayneu. But through the benevolence and great love HKBH
has for Bnei Israel, He gave us "Torah" that is... the right to use
our own intellect and interpret Halacah through the "Midos SheHaTorah
Nidreshshes Bohen" and... the decisions of the majority.

HM

On 20 Mar 2002 at 12:43, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 19, 2002 at 09:23:42AM -0500, Gil Student wrote:
>: Based on this, those gaonim rule that we really drink five cups at the
>: seder. Some rishonim say that there are really five words referring to
>: redemption and add "ve-heveisi" as the fifth.

> But doesn't the gemara itself mention four leshonos? Are there divergent
> girsa'os?

I remember hearing that there are those who hold five l'shonos 
(hotzeisi, hitzalti, goalti, lakachti, heiveisi). 

-- Carl

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 10:22:21AM +0200, Carl and Adina Sherer wrote:
:> But doesn't the gemara itself mention four leshonos? Are there divergent
:> girsa'os?

: I remember hearing that there are those who hold five l'shonos 
: (hotzeisi, hitzalti, goalti, lakachti, heiveisi). 

Yes, but the gemara itself says four.

-mi

From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
>>>> Is anyone familiar with the source of the saying that one who makes
three shidduchim automatically merits olam ha'ba?<<<

I've never heard of that one before!
And what if someone makes12?
(That's about my score.)

And what about the dozens you try - and work hard for  - and they don't
happen?
Don't we deserve s'char for that?

Someone once told me that the Mah'arsho explains the question we are
asked upon entry to Olom Haboh; "Osakto bepiryeh verivyeh?" as refering
to making shidduchim. (I can't recall if that is for usual ones or maybe
only for yesomim. I'll have to check it up.)

In any case Reb Carl, many gutteh yidden have told me that being oysek
in shidduchim is a segula to marrying off your children easily. And that
is no small reward these days.

SBA

<<This applies to wine made from grapes with sufficent sugar. That is true
of real grapes, but not of their American second cousins, Concord grapes
(a native American species that is of a different genus than grapes in
Europe and the Middle East.>>

The classic (European / Mediterranean) grape is Vitis Vinifera. The
native American specie (at least the one native to the New England area
or so, IIRC) is Vitis Labrusca. They belong to the same genus, but are
different species.

There are hybrids of the two species, as well.

IIRC, the Concord variety is either a selection of a superior native
variety, or possibly a Vinifera - Labrusca hybrid (?).

Mordechai

Joelirich@aol.com wrote:
> Does
> anyone know of any sources which discuss when the text we have today
> (not just the bare bones) reached it's current state and who contributed
> (if it wasn't fixed in its current state by the Ac"h)

There are several books on this.  The prettiest is the Polychrome Haggada
(which my wife uses at the seder every year - it prints texts from different
eras in different colors), the most serious is Daniel Goldschmitt's book.
IIRC Rabbi Kasher discusses these questions in Haggadah Shleimah.

David Riceman

On 20 Mar 2002 at 16:39, kennethgmiller@juno.com wrote:
> R' Micha Berger asked <<< A side question: How does a "ben olam habah"
> differ from all of BY who "yeish lahem cheileq le'olam haba"? >>>
> Citizen vs. permanent resident?

I think "yeish lahem chelek" is how you start out - but you can blow 
it. After all the Mishna goes on to enumerate people who don't have a 
chelek. A "ben olam haba" is someone who is assured a place. 

KNLA"D.

-- Carl

At 02:32 PM 3/20/02 -0500, David Riceman wrote:
>It's not germane to the discussion but you remind me of an anecdote one of my
>rebbeim told me.  The mashgiach of [your favorite yeshiva's name] wandered 
>into
>the Beis Midrash on Shabbos afternoon and found a couple of boys chatting
>instead of learning.  Here's the dialogue.

>Mashgiach: "Don't you boys know that the rashei teivos shabbos indicate sheina
>b'shabas taanug, meaning either shinun (of Torah) or sleeping?"
>Boys: "Perhaps it's rashei teivos for sicha b'shabas taanug?"
>Mashgiach: "Lev chacham l'ymino, v'lev ksil l'smolo."[meaning the dot on the
>shin]

Hooks into the Ramchal in Kinas Hashem Tzevakos on the entire world being 
an interplay of Shin yemonis (chesed) vs. Shin semolis (din) vs. Samech 
(Seichel vs. Sachal). A far more profound joke than one would initially think!

Kol Tuv,
YGB
ygb@aishdas.org      http://www.aishdas.org/rygb

Hevra.

Kindly share your perspective/experiences with the following shaylot.

1. if someone is machmer not to eat kitniyot on Pesach, and he recieves a
gift on Pessach of an item that has Kitniyot (chocolate), what should he
do with the bar (dispose of it immediately..save it for after pessach
etc.)

2. if someone is machmer not to eat kitniyot on Pesach, and visits
a close family member who does not have a no-kitniyout tradition
(ashkenazi rabbi who visits sister who married a sephardi rabbi), how
machmer should he be in eating off dishes that had kitniyout served on
them , or food cooked in pots that also had kitniyot cooked in them etc.

3. Non Jews (neighbors/bsiness assocites etc.) at the Seder.(please do
not include yayin nesech problems)

4. the kitniyot status of "lifteet"

c

I had received an e-mail containing a rational proof that gilgul does
not exist to which I responded sarcastically regarding the author's
dismissal of gedolei harishonim.

I was surprised to receive a response requesting further comment.
The following is what I sent:

>So, you then deride all the other Rishonim who reject gilgul.

Not at all. I do not claim to be able to decide which of the many
rishonim on both sides is correct, even though the clear majority is on
the side of gilgul.

>Unfortunately, quoting sources was not a method used to decide fact, even 
>by those who you quote! They used reason.

Your premise is incorrect for a number of reasons. First, you claim that
the sources that I cited used reason to decide this matter. This is
incorrect, which you will see when you look up the sources. I will
soon quote one verbatim to make the point. However, more importantly
is your claim that only reason is worth following. This is incorrect
for many reasons.

First, not everyone is intellectually capable of a full and complete
logical analysis. Indeed, perhaps most people are incapable. What should
they do? Should they think through subjects to the best of their ability
and follow their probably incorrect conclusions? Then there are those
who think that they have fully analyzed a topic but have actually missed
certain points, perhaps because they did not read the analyses of those
greater than they. A scholar needs to research an issue completely
before reaching a conclusion. Perhaps the Rambam raises a point that
you had not thought of? Perhaps R' Chasdai Crescas?

But most importantly is the fact that not everything is subject to
human understanding. Consider what Rambam wrote in his Treatise on
Ressurection in defending himself against the accusation that he denied
resurrection because he barely discussed it in his writings:

"What may, in all likelihood, have led men to misjudge us is the fact
that while we discuss immortality, offering appropriate illustrations
from scriptural and rabbinic authorities, we are, on the contrary, very
brief when discussing resurrection and content ourselves with the mere
assertion that it is an essential creed of our religion... It is faith
and not reason that can persuade us that [resurrection] will occur... No
proof can be advanced in its support. How then could it be expected that
we should have discussed it at length?"

Resurrection cannot be proven but it must never the less be believed.
How can the Rambam, the prince of logic, accept a principle that he
cannot rationally prove? Consider also his oft-repeated answer to the
contradiction between divine omniscience and freedom of will (if G-d knows
the future then how can we have freedom to choose?). Rambam repeatedly
stated that G-d's knowledge cannot be understood by man and therefore the
contradiction is only apparent. What kind of an answer is that? We don't
and can't know everything. There are certain areas, particularly those
regarding the spiritual realm of which we have no empirical evidence, in
which we must simply have faith. Not an irrational faith. Not a faith
that contradicts reason. But sometimes a faith that cannot be proven.

The following is what R' Chasdai Crescas concludes after attempting to
logically disprove the concept of gilgul (Or Hashem 4:7):

"Since this group [that affirms gilgul] has its basis in tradition, the
doors of investigation are closed to this topic. If it is a tradition
we will accept it [cf. Mishnah, Yevamos 8:3] with a cheerful face."

Be well,
Gil Student

Some time ago there was some discussion re how 'eagerly' some people are
awaiting the arrival of Moshiach and again being able to makriv korbonos.

Looking into some sEforim, I was referred to a Midrash Tanchuma (Emor
14) which says "...Kol hakorbonos b'teilim vekorban toda eino botel
le'olom..."

This should make these people happy...as there is no blood and gore with
the Toda.

However, the question then is what is the meaning of our tefila 3 times
daily "Vehosheiv es ho'avodo lidvir veisecho, v'ishei yisroel..."?

SBA

From: "SBA" <sba@iprimus.com.au>
>Looking into some sEforim, I was referred to a Midrash Tanchuma (Emor 14)
>which says "...Kol hakorbonos b'teilim vekorban toda eino botel le'olom..."
>
>This should make these people happy...as there is no blood and gore with the
>Toda. ...

Sheer curiosity:

RSBA: Did the fellow who referred you inform you that this Medrash is the 
cornerstone of an entire shitta espoused and elaborated upon by RAYHK in 
his essay on Vegeterainism?!

Kol Tuv,
YGB

ygb@aishdas.org      http://www.aishdas.org/rygb

From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
> RSBA: Did the fellow who referred you inform you that this Medrash is the
> cornerstone of an entire shitta espoused and elaborated upon by RAYHK in
> his essay on Vegeterainism?!

No. I strongly doubt that he is fluent in his seforim.

So tell us how does RAYK explain the 'vehosheiv es ho'avodo'
and "veshom naaseh lefonecho es korbonos chovosenu.." and similar
tefilos?

SBA

From: "SBA" <sba@iprimus.com.au>
> This should make these people happy...as there is no blood and gore
> with the Toda.

Why would that be? In Mishna 6 of Eiyzehu mekomon we learn (daily) that
the Toda blood gets sprinkled on 2 of the Mizbeach corners. Unless you
mean that none of the meat lands on the mizbeach?

Curiously yours,
- Danny

SBA wrote:
>Looking into some sEforim, I was referred to a Midrash Tanchuma (Emor 14)
>which says "...Kol hakorbonos b'teilim vekorban toda eino botel le'olom..."

That is referring to the korbenos yachid like chatas and asham.
Korbenos tzibbur will still be around.

Gil Student

> 1. if someone is machmer not to eat kitniyot on Pesach, and he recieves a
> gift on Pessach of an item that has Kitniyot (chocolate), what should he
> do with the bar (dispose of it immediately..save it for after pessach

*owning* kitniyot is permitted -- so there would be no reason to dispose of
it. Even if you hold it to be muksa, you could put it away until after pesach.

> 2. if someone is machmer not to eat kitniyot on Pesach, and visits
> a close family member who does not have a no-kitniyout tradition
> (ashkenazi rabbi who visits sister who married a sephardi rabbi), how
> machmer should he be in eating off dishes that had kitniyout served on
> them , or food cooked in pots that also had kitniyot cooked
> in them etc.

I've heard the complete range of opinions, from "no problem" (heard
from R' Shlesinger at Shaalvim) to "you can't eat there" from various
Rabbanim in Meah Shearim.

Akiva

*Kindly share your perspective/experiences with the following shaylot.

*1. if someone is machmer not to eat kitniyot on Pesach, and he receives a
*gift on Pessach of an item that has Kitniyot (chocolate), what should he
*do with the bar (dispose of it immediately..save it for after pessach
*etc.)

Even though we are noheig not to eat kitniyot on Pesach, it is not chametz
and we are not required to dispose of it for or on Pesach. As a matter of
fact, even the most machmir of chareidi parents here still feeds their young
children/babies kitniyot cereal during Pesach. However, just this year I see
signs up for non-kitniyot baby cereal. People here usually prepare the
kitniyot baby cereal away from the other food and in separate utensils, but
our rav holds that if one were to accidentally use a regular kli for this it
does not necessarily make the kli unusable.

*2. if someone is machmer not to eat kitniyot on Pesach, and visits
*a close family member who does not have a no-kitniyout tradition
*(ashkenazi rabbi who visits sister who married a sephardi rabbi), how
*machmer should he be in eating off dishes that had kitniyout served on
*them , or food cooked in pots that also had kitniyot cooked in them etc.

Our rav said in his pre-Pesach shiur this year that one can eat by such
family members [non-kitniyot food, of course, even though it was cooked in
the same pots previously used to cook food with kitniyot]. We were invited
over to the home of Sefardi friends one year during Pesach and asked our rav
[same rav] whether we should go and he said better to just go some other
time, as visiting friends is not the same as visiting Sefardi family
members.

---Rena

On the occasion of the Yom Kippur Kotton I told my talmidim that I was
not fasting, as caffeine withdrawal effects my capacity to learn and to
teach and I would not be able to fulfill my responsibilities. I told
them that although fasting was important, it was primarily important
in provoking contemplation, reflection and enhanced avodah - i.e.,
kabbolos. It is good, especially at this halfway point, to reflect on
our New Year kabbolos - and it took me a few moments even to remember
mine! (They were to be kinder and gentler at home and to bentsch with
greater kavannah.) I then suggested that since this was an ongoing
situation, an important ramification of the T'aanis/YKK would be for
every individual to take on a kabboloh of limited duration (the Alter from
Kelm's Yomim Noro'im kabbolos were also of limited duration - such as till
Chanukah and stick to it as a degree of additional devotion and Kiddush
Hashem in these times of Chillul Hashem. I took upon myself (and told the
talmidim that I had done so) to learn every day except Shabbos a perek
Nach until Shavu'os. As Hashgocho would have it, my son asked me to learn
with him Mishlei every day that very day! We are up to the ninth perek.

May I suggest that everyone within ear(e-mail)shot accept some small
kabboloh upon themselves until Shavuos? The ongoing situation seems to
warrant it strongly!

Kol Tuv,
YGB
ygb@aishdas.org      http://www.aishdas.org/rygb

*******************


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