Avodah Mailing List

Volume 08 : Number 003

Wednesday, September 26 2001

• Rosh HaShana
• Re: Prozbul
• Chayim and Chayim Tovim
• Re: Yom Hazikaron
• Re: Kinus, Part II
• Re: Kinus, Part II
• Re: Fwd: Re: Lubavitch Philosophy
• Re: Dor Revi'i on hein qarvu yamekha la-mut
• [none]
• Shabbath Shuva
• chayim vs. chayim tovim
• Fw: Yom Hazikaron (2)
• Re: yom hazikaron
• Pruzbul
• Pruzbul
• Re: Kinus, Part II
• Re: RMF and USDA Milk
• Re: Fwd: Re: Lubavitch Philosophy
• Re: RMF and USDA Milk
• Bracha for Scholars, was: Get in the WTC

[Micha Berger:]
>Isn't the determination of which day is 1 Tishrei "merely" a rabbinic
>decree as well?

>As Simcha states, the heavenly court is apparantly convened when we
>ask it to.

Not really the same.
The torah explicitly says that RH (or at least yom teruah) is on the
first of tishrei and gives bet din the duty of setting the new moon.
This is the yisrael vehazmanim of the beracha.

However, the second day is a later innovation. Thus, early in Jewish
history G-d judged us only on one day. At some point it became a safek
and it is less clear what G-d did. later it was made into one long day
and that was my question.

The Baal Hamaor claims that the original custom in EY was to keep only
one day RH and that was only changed by the talmidei haRif.
That leads to the strange conclusion that people in EY were judged on
only one day and people outside EY are judged on 2 days.
When the custom in EY changed then presumably G-d changed the way
the heavenly court judged also?

[Rena Freedenberg:]
>What our rav said a couple of years ago is that the way the bais din shel
>ma'aleh works can be seen a bit from the way the courts shel mata work.
>First, they get all the pre-trial motions and other such "quick" things out
>of the way, and then they start judging the cases that take a longer time....

Again the problem is that RH did not always have 2 days

Eli Turkel

Rabbi Mechy Frankel asks <<< Why prozbul now? Or am I just imagining
all this.? >>>

For what it's worth, I do recall various announcements and reminders
every end-of-shemitah as far back as '73, when I was at YU. In fact,
my purely subjective impression is that there have been fewer reminders
this year than in the past.

Akiva Miller

From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
> We say  zachrenu lechayim,   zocher yetzurav lechayim
>  but Uchesov lechayim tovim and then combine them,
>    HBesefer chayim..........lechayim tovim.
> What is the distinction between chayim and chayim tovim, and when do
> we ask for one and when the other.

The Otzar Hatfilos Siddur's peirush Anaf Yosef explains that we first
ask for 'stam' Chayim' and later on we get 'bolder' and request 'Chayim
Tovim' k'derech' beggars who begin with something minor
and slowly increase their demands.

He brings the Yalkut Tehillim 19 which states that Rav Acha said that these
Kutim know how to 'schnorr' [lesavev al hapesochim]. They first say: "Do you
have a little water?' Then they ask for an onion. When they get it they say
that without some bread it harms the heart... Similarly "tzaddikim yodim
leratzos es Boyrom..."

Um'inyan l'inyan on the same page [623] of the siddur in the peirush Dover
Sholom he explains re the repetitive language in 'B'sefer Chayim' that there
is a hefsek between Nizocher and v'Nikoseiv - as we are requesting 2
things - zechirah and kesiva. Ayin Shom.

S B ABELES

From: Qumran <qumran@optonline.net>
> I'm sure this question will sound simple, but why do we say (in Yaaleh
> Veyavo) Yom Hazikaron, rather than Yom Hateruah or Yom Hamelucha ?
> Why is Zichronot being placed above Malchyot and Shofarot?

The Eitz Yosef in the Otzar Hatefilos siddur (p 1040) explains (b'shem
the Levush) that Yom Hazikoron refers to both RH and Rosh Chodesh and
that we try to mask [lehaalim] RH as much as possible from the Soton.

(I don't quite get it...is the Soton really such a fool? The whole
Tefilah is about RH?)

[The Taamei Haminhogim gives a few reasons for the use of "Zikoron"
but these do not explain why the others are not used.]

SBA

On 21 Sep 01, at 13:44, Micha Berger wrote:
> The Medrash Rabba says that Re'uvein was the first one to do teshuvah,
> after the incident with the duda'im. As we know of earlier cases, it's
> hard to understand this medrash. Obviously the Maharal wouldn't go with
> the teiretz that he was the first to do teshuvah mei'ahavah.

Why would Reuvain have to do tshuva for the dudaim? 

-- Carl

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

On Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 03:18:21AM +0300, Carl and Adina Sherer wrote:
: Why would Reuvain have to do tshuva for the dudaim? 

I meant for his role in inforcing the deal by stepping beyond the limits
of kibud av va'eim and moving the bed.

-mi

On Thu, Sep 20, 2001 at 05:22:16PM -0400, RYGB forwarded from his L source:
: "man pnei Ho'odon Havaya etc. do Rashby" (Zohar II:38a) etc....

While I realize that anivus doesn't necessitate saying "ich bin gornisht"
when one isn't, I would still find this a difficult statement for an
anav to record about himself. (Assuming this is from the original Zohar,
and not amongst things RYE would consider a later accretion.)

RYGB adds within his own 2 cents:
: The truth is, regardless of whether there is a "right" or "wrong" answer,
: there seems to be a very real difference of opinion on the twin issues
: of YK and B between Chabad and Chagas Chassidus.

I thought, from what you already said on the pasuk, these aren't really
two issues. Did you mean "twin" just to mean "pair", or to also connote
closeness?

IOW, is it possible to believe one and not the other?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org            you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org       You light a candle.
Fax: (413) 403-9905             - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l

From the Dor Revi'i website www.dorrevii.org

hein qarvu yamekha la-mut: It is written in the Midrash:
	Moshe said: *Ribbono Shel Olam, I praised you with the word
	"hein" as it is written (Deuteronomy 10:14): "Behold the heaven
	and the heaven of heaven belong to the L-rd your G-d" (hein
	la-Sheim Eloqekha ha-shamayim u-sh"mei ha-shamayim). Yet with
	the word "hein" You decree death upon me? The Holy One Blessed
	Be He replied to him: "A bad neighbor sees what enters but not
	what goes out. Don"t you remember that when I sent you to redeem
	them from Egypt you said to Me (Exodus 4:1): "behold, they will
	not believe me" (hein lo ya"aminu li). That is why "behold,
	the days approach when you must die" (hein qarvu yamekha la-mut).

And our master explained this Midrash with knowledge and understanding.
For the man who walked at the head of the people of Israel and led the
flock of Yoseiph had been charged with two tasks. The first is to stand
in the breach to abate the wrath and the anger when the Eternal became
incensed and would destroy them or would do evil to them, by atoning
for their sin with his prayers on their behalf and causing the Eternal
to repent of the evil that He had thought to do to them. This, indeed,
is what Moshe the shepard of Israel did when they despised the Almighty
and walked contrary to Him causing the wrath of the Eternal to burn
against them. So when the Eternal decided to kill them in the desert
and destroy them, Moshe beseeched the Eternal to forgive their sin and
to withdraw His plan to do them evil.

The second task of a leader is to lead them along the path on which they
should walk and to reproach them continually for their conduct, to correct
their traits, to cause them to reverence the Eternal and to love Him.
Now Yitro admonished Moshe about both of these responsibilities when he
said to him (Exodus 18:19): "you shall represent the people before G-d."
Rashi comments:
	you shall be an agent and an advocate between them and the
	Omnipresent who will pray for them and will offer numerous
	supplications before G-d and will speak well of them.

And also this (Exodus 18:20):
	and you shall teach them the statutes and the decisions, and make
	them know the way in which they must walk and what they must do

However if we reflect upon these two tasks, we shall see that they are at
cross purposes to each other, so that whenever one becomes more prominent,
the other must recede correspondingly. For only a man so exalted that
he could ascend the ladder that rises to the house of the Almighty
on high and could set his dwelling place among the stars, would have
the courage to approach before the Eternal to quell His burning wrath.
And as the soul of this person ascends and soars toward the Eternal, his
courage increase would increase correspondingly, so that his strength and
dignity will enable him to stand as an iron pillar of defense so that
the Eternal may not pour His wrath upon them. However, as he ascends,
his words will no longer draw the hearts of his listeners toward him
and they will not listen to his reproof. Nor will they learn from his
example, as they will say: *What have we to do with him, is he not so very
far removed from us?* For one who gives reproof to the people will not
strike the chords in the heart of his audience unless he is similar to
them, is acquainted with their concerns and knows what they are seeking.
Only then, can one administer an appropriate reproof

This is clear from what the Eternal told Moshe when Moshe ascended on
high to receive the two tablets of the covenant from the Eternal (Exodus
32:7): "Go down; for your people . . . have corrupted themselves."
And the Sages interpreted this to mean: "Go down from your greatness."
In other words, you must lower yourself to become closer to them and
then it will be within your power to lead them in the paths of honesty
and righteousness. At the exalted level at which Moshe stood then, the
people would not listen to him or turn an attentive ear to his words.
However, how could a man whose soul had not soared and was just like one
of the people stand in the breach to beseech and supplicate the Eternal
to abate His anger and abandon His wrath, and by virtue of what merit
could he cry out to the Eternal?

Now Moshe tried with all his might to perform both these tasks
wholeheartedly. When he came down a second time from the mountain where
G-d and truth had been revealed to him, he had become so great that his
face shone. Moshe therefore put a veil over his face to hide his face
from the people, so that they should not understand how wondrous were his
ways and would continue to accept instruction from him. But when he came
before the Eternal to beg and supplicate for his people, he removed the
veil and his honor was completely revealed in its glory and brilliance.
And for his sake, the Eternal forgave them. However, at the end of his
days, Moshe became very much greater; his brow rose to the clouds and
his head to the heavens, so that he was just short of a god. He could
no longer conceal his magnificence and his greatness from the people,
for every eye that glimpsed him and everyone that saw him recognized
the splendor of his greatness which was enormous. It was no longer in
his power to control his people and to teach the wayward understanding
for his voice was no longer heard. That is why the end of all flesh came
upon him and his sun began to set while the spirit of the Eternal began
to move his servant Yehoshua whose sun began to rise.

Now in the Midrash Tanhuma it is said about the verse (Numbers 23:9):
"lo, a people dwelling alone" (hein am l"vadad yishqon), that the letters
"hei" and "nun" have no numerical mates. In other words the letter "hei"
with a numerical value of five is added to itself to equal ten and the
letter "nun" with a numerical value of fifty is added to itself to equal
one hundred, whereas all the other letters must be added to a different
letter to equal either ten or one hundred. That is why the word "hein"
(lo) is used in this context to signify that the people dwells alone as
do the letters "hei" and "nun".

And now the words of the Midrash with which we began shine forth as
does the light of the sky. For the Eternal said to Moshe: "Behold, the
days approach when you must die" (hein qarvu yamekha la-mut), because
you are now in the category of "hein." In other words, you have been
set apart, because you have become so great and the distance between
you and the people is so vast that you cannot associate with them and
be close to them. That is why the day of your death is approaching and
your position must be given to another who is popular with the multitude
of his brethren. Moshe then asked with an agitated heart,

    Ribbono Shel Olam, with the word "hein" I have praised You and with
    "hein" do You now decree death upon me? Am I not preeminent because
    I was exalted over other human beings, having ascended on high and
    wrestled mightly with G-d so that I became an interlocutor on their
    behalf to cause the wrath of the Eternal to recede and He spared
    them for my sake? Did I not praise You with "hein" (as is written):
    "Behold the heaven and the heaven of heaven belong to the L-rd your
    G-d" (hein la-Sheim ha-shamayim u"sh"mei ha-shamayim) because You are
    separated from all the inhabitants of the earth and Your path is in
    heaven. So who can, better than I, ascend to You and come to the inner
    sanctum?" (As, indeed, it is written in the Midrash that when Moshe
    was prepared to die and entrusted his soul to the G-d of spirits,
    the Eternal roared like a lion (Psalms 94:16): "Who rises up for Me
    against the wicked?" Who will stand with Me in My time of trouble?)

Then the trustworthy G-d answered him:

    A bad neighbor sees what enters but not what goes out. He focuses on
    the crop of his neighbor and does not see his expenditures which are
    many. So do you focus on high and on your own advantage, but do not
    see the great loss that results, because you will be unable to reprove
    the people and they will not listen to your words. Did you not say,
    "behold the people of Israel have not listened to me" because you
    were greatly separated from them and their ways were not your ways so
    that you could not reprove them and keep them from throwing your words
    behind them. That is why they would not turn to listen you. Therefore,
    "behold, the days approach when you must die" and when another man
    who will be able to lead them in righteousness and justice will
    occupy your place. And they will listen to the lesson of his reproof.

David Glasner
dglasner@ftc.gov

I agree with R' Mechy;  I don't understand the universal writing of
pruzbulim.  I for one am owed no money and chose not to write a pruzbul. 
A few days before R"H I lent someone a dollar whom I don't know and
didn't expect to meet again.  I asked him to wait until after R"H and
then,  it having become his due to shemitas kesafim,  to give it to
tzedaka.  In retrospect I probably had no right to ask him to do so.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

From: David Riceman <dr@insight.att.com>

 <<Why not have Yom Kippur immediately after Rosh haShana? For most of
us the days between are a let-down rather than a heightened experience
of mitzvoth and tshuva.>>

        I would argue that hi hanosenes;  that this is a first
opportunity to put your "New Year's resolutions" into practice;  YK right
after RH would be TOO much of a high to have any long lasting meaning.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

 

From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
> We say  zachrenu lechayim       zocher yetzurav lechayim
> but          Uchesov lechayim tovim
> and then combine them,       Besefer chayim..........lechayim tovim.
> What is the distinction between chayim and chayim tovim,  and when do we
> ask for one and when the other.

I would like to add to the above seasonal query the fact that in
a number of places throughout the year, nusach Ashkenaz generally
limits itself to asking for chayim, while 'Sephard' adds tovim -
e.g. in yaaleh viyovo (vihoshieinu vo lichayim [tovim - Sephard]),
and at the end of kaddish (yihei shlomo rabbo min shimaya vichayim
[tovim-Sephard] oleinu....). In some printed 'nusach Ashkenaz' texts,
printers added 'tovim' in parentheses - as some similarly some added other
'Sephard' things in parentheses elsewhere. Tangentially, I think such
parenthetical additions have no place and they cause confusion and cause
some unknowledgable people to say the parenthetical additions because
they are afraid of leaving something out, thereby distorting / ruining
the proper / original nusach / nuschaos and creating (a) mishmash /
hybrid nusach / nuschaos.

Perhaps shedding light on the year round chayim vs. chayim tovim issue
will solve the Yomim Noraim part and / or vice - versa.

Mordechai

From: SBA <sba@blaze.net.au>
>>I'm sure this question will sound simple, but why do we say (in Yaaleh
>>Veyavo) Yom Hazikaron, rather than Yom Hateruah or Yom Hamelucha ?
>> Why is Zichronot being placed above Malchyot and Shofarot?

> The Eitz Yosef in the Otzar Hatefilos siddur (p 1040) explains (b'shem the
> Levush) that Yom Hazikoron refers to both RH and Rosh Chodesh ...

Further to the above, I have now come across the gemorro in Eiruvin
[40a]: Omor Rabbah...Mahu lehazkir shel Rosh Chodesh beRH... oy dilma
Zikoron echod oleh lekan ulekan...?

Rashi [dh Zikoron Echod]: Es Yom Hazikoron Hazeh, deRachmono karyeh
zikoron d'ch'siv Zichron Terua, uberosh Chodesh nami k'siv vehoyo lochem
lezikoron...

So it seems obvious that a term that covers both was required.

SBA

Is there something subtle I'm missing? Yom HaZikkaron is from the
Biblical "zichron trua"; malchioth and shofroth are nowhere (as far as
I recall) Biblical allusions to the day of Rosh HaShana. The whole
structure of yaaleh v'yavo centers around zikkaron. I have heard (I
don't recall from whom) that it was composed for Rosh HaShana and only
later borrowed for the liturgy of other holidays.

David Riceman

On Sat, 22 Sep 2001, Gershon Dubin wrote:
> I agree with R' Mechy;  I don't understand the universal writing of
> pruzbulim.  I for one am owed no money and chose not to write a pruzbul....

I am not sure, but I think this is all different if one is privelaged
to live in a Jewish country with Jewish banks and a Jewish government.
For example, our rav announced that all people with children who receive
kitzvat y'ladim (a large percentage of the shul) needed to write a pruzbul
since the government deopsited money for you in the bank a few days before
R"H. The bank now owed you money that technically you were loaning them
to use. Shmittah would cancel their chov to you without a pruzbul.

> A few days before R"H I lent someone a dollar whom I don't know and
> didn't expect to meet again.  I asked him to wait until after R"H and
> then,  it having become his due to shemitas kesafim,  to give it to
> tzedaka.  In retrospect I probably had no right to ask him to do so.

AIUI, based on a psak I received, a debt had to be due before R"H for
shmitas kesafim to apply.

Akiva

On 22 Sep 2001, at 23:00, Micha Berger wrote:
> I meant for his role in inforcing the deal by stepping beyond the limits
> of kibud av va'eim and moving the bed.

Unless I missed something, the dudaim were payment for Leah to 
spend Rachel's night with Yaakov (a night on which Yissachar was 
conceived), while the bed moving was after Rachel's ptira and had 
no connection to the dudaim. Or have I missed a Medrash 
somewhere? 

-- Carl
Carl M. Sherer, Adv. Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751 Fax 972-2-625-0461 eFax (US) 1-253-423-1459
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il             mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Dear RDE
1) Which Teshuva has the issue of USDA milk (chalav stam)?
2) Did RMF use the term "Anan Sahadi" wrt to the USDA's 'hashgacha" on the 
milk?

Gmar Tov 
  
Shalom and Regards
Rich Wolpoe
Moderator - TorahInsight@yahoogroups.com
"Knowledge without Insight is like a horse in a library" - Vernon Howard    

At 11:10 PM 9/22/01 -0400, Micha Berger wrote:
>: "man pnei Ho'odon Havaya etc. do Rashby" (Zohar II:38a) etc....

>While I realize that anivus doesn't necessitate saying "ich bin gornisht"
>when one isn't, I would still find this a difficult statement for an
>anav to record about himself....

What about when Rashby says "Ro'isi Bnei Aliyah etc."

>: The truth is, regardless of whether there is a "right" or "wrong" answer,
>: there seems to be a very real difference of opinion on the twin issues
>: of YK and B between Chabad and Chagas Chassidus.
...
>IOW, is it possible to believe one and not the other?

Yes, one can believe in the idea of YK as an abstract concept with no 
practical ramifications (i.e., one need not be mischaber to a specific YK, 
it happens me'meilah) - this, it seems to me, is the approach of Misnagdic 
Mekkubalim.

And, one may certainly be mevattel oneself to another individual's ratzon 
because of that individual's charisma (in very negative manifestations, 
demagoguery) with no clear idea of YK whatsoever. This becomes related to 
our perennially recurring DT discussions.

That's why I used the word "twin".

KT,
YGB
ygb@aishdas.org      http://www.aishdas.org/rygb

From: <RabbiRichWolpoe@aol.com>
> 1) Which Teshuva has the issue of USDA milk (chalav stam)?

I have two pages of citations about chalav stam in the current edition
Yad Moshe page 100-101 There is a concise summary of the issues made by
Rabbi S. Rappaport in the 8th volume #5 page 161
Start with YD I #47-49

> 2) Did RMF use the term "Anan Sahadi" wrt to the USDA's 'hashgacha" on the
> milk?

2) YD I #47 page 82  mentions anan sahadi

R' Micha asked,

<<While on the subject, if anyone knows which berachah you make for
Jewish scholars of non-Jewish subjects, please answer me on Avodah.>>

        My recollection is that one does not make any beracha.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

*******************


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