Avodah Mailing List

Volume 07 : Number 006

Wednesday, March 28 2001

• Shower in Lieu of Tevilas Ezra?
• Does HaMotzi Cover the Meal?
• Erev Pesach she' chal b'Shabbos Eitza for Ashkenazic
• RE: Lashon ha-ra about the dead
• RE: Erev Pesach she' chal b'Shabbos Eitza for Ashkenazic Gebrokts Eaters
• RE: Shower in Lieu of Tevilas Ezra?
• Re: Shower in Lieu of Tevilas Ezra?
• Re: LED on Shabbos
• RE: LED on Shabbos
• RE: Shower in Lieu of Tevilas Ezra?
• Re: children and seder
• Re: Hareni Kapparat Mishkavo
• Re: Hareni Kapparat Mishkavo
• Re: Hareni Kapparat Mishkavo
• Re: children and seder
• Re: Hareni Kapparat Mishkavo
• washing hands of kohanim
• Matza Ashira on Erev Pessach
• RE: Erev Pesach she' chal b'Shabbos Eitza for Ashkenazic
• RE: Shower in Lieu of Tevilas Ezra?
• Re: 'G-d'/Hashem & Tzivoh Levorchom
• bein hashemoshot
• Re: Erev Pesach she' chal b'Shabbos Eitza for Ashkenazic
• Erev Pesach she' chal b'Shabbos Eitza for Ashkenazic Re: Avodah V7 #5
• Gebrokts Shabbos Erev Pesach
• Re: Erev Pesach she' chal b'Shabbos Eitza for Ashkenazic Gebrokts Eaters
• Re: Matzah mehl Rolls on Erev Pesach
• Matzo erev Pesach
• RE: Matza Ashira on Erev Pessach
• Re: Erev Pesach she' chal b'Shabbos Eitza for Ashkenazic Gebrokts Eaters
• RE: Erev Pesach she' chal b'Shabbos Eitza for Ashkenazic

I seem to recall that some hold that taking a shower is sufficient to
fulfill tevilas Ezra. Anyone have any more info on this?

From: Kenneth G Miller <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
> ... in cases where the family goes to another room, perhaps even outdoors,
> and makes hamotzi standing over napkins ... How is this different than
> the classical Akiras Hashulchan? Why on earth would they not have to
> make a new bracha rishona on the main course and side dishes?

        IIRC, Rabbi Yisrael Reisman said that in fact you do have to. 
You can either make brochos,  or eat at the table.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

From: "Akiva Atwood" <atwood@netvision.net.il>
>> Matzo ashira applies to flour mixed with mei perios - not matzo meal.
 
> I know -- but AFAIK you can't be yotzeh the mitzvah with it, so by 
> the original post it should be mutar to eat it erev Pesach.
> AIUI, Ashkenazim don't eat it erev pesach

Machlokes if you can eat it during heter chometz or all day. Rav Moshe
Feinstein told people to use it for lechem mishna if they have small
kids and are afraid about scattering crumbs.

Shiurim are an issue: approximately one full matzo for a kebeitza.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

From: Carl M. Sherer [mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il]
> You are arguing the semantics of the Gemara and whether or not the
> statement that one who talks about the dead is as if he is talking about
> a stone can be reconciled with the Gemara's earlier statement (which is
> gepaskened l'halacha) that one cannot wear tzitzis and t'fillin in the
> Beis HaKvoros because of loeg larash. And I am arguing that because we
> do pasken loeg larash is assur, that it is assur to speak lashon hara
> about meisim.

> So we are actually talking about two different things. 

I didn't respond at the time because I thought I had made my point clear.
Let me quote myself in Avodah Volume 3 #196 as to why there is no
proof from lo'aig larash:
Clearly we pasken (YD 367:2-3) that one should not show his tzitzis
openly in a cemetery because of lo'aig larash.  That accords with
*both* the middle of 18a and the opinion of R. Chiya on the bottom of
18a (disputed by R. Yonasan, who claims that the dead do not know
what happens on this world; the gemara later says that R. Yonasan
reversed his position).  You claim that this psak is irreconciliable
with the gemarah on the top of 19a, which states, "Rabbi Yitzchok
said, 'Whoever speaks disparagingly about someone after his death is
as if he spoke about a stone.' Some say [1] because the deceased is
not aware [of the comment] while others explain [2] it is because the
deceased is aware but doesn't care."  I agree with you that position
#1 cannot be reconciled with the psak in YD, but why can't #2? 
Perhaps a dead person doesn't mind when people speak disparagingly
about him (knowing the unimportance of what goes on in Olam Hazeh)
but nevertheless feels bad when reminded that he can no longer
perform mitzvot and thereby elevate his neshama.

<snip>
> Look at the Rabbeinu Yona...  He specifically states that it's assur to 
> repeat the gnus and the aveiros of a talmid chacham, and he does 
> not make the distinction between truth and falsehood that you 
> make. While that may not mean that we cannot speak (truthfully) 
> b'gnus of ANY meis (because the Rabbeinu Yona attributes it to 
> the fact that we have a chazaka that a talmid chacham who sins 
> does tshuva immediately)...

I agree about a talmid chacham.  But this implies that there is no issur
regarding a non-talmid chacham.

<snip>
> BTW the Mordechai in Bava Kama Number 82 speaks of asking  
> forgiveness from meisim for "cheruf." (He also alludes to this at the 
> beginning of 106). AFAIK cheruf is a curse, without regard to its 
> truth or falsity.

But cheruf is a much a stronger action than merely speaking lashon hara.
The implication is that cheruf is assur but lashon hara is muttar.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

From: Kenneth G Miller [mailto:kennethgmiller@juno.com]
> This is supported by the Star-K at
> http://www.star-k.org/kashruskurrents/pass01/eruv01.html, which writes
> <<< For those who follow the custom of eating gebrokts on Pesach,
> products containing matzoh meal that were boiled (e.g. 
> knaidlach) may be
> eaten if they are consumed before the 10th hour of the day. 
> Baked matzoh
> meal products, including cakes, may not be eaten all day. 
> (Whether or not
> one eats gebroks, baked matzoh meal may be eaten friday night.) >>>

It seems that that this statement is contradicted by Mishnah Brurah in
471:20 and 461:18.  In 471:20, MB writes that the issur to eat matzah on
erev pesach applies only to matzah that has shem matzah; consequently he
permits kneidlach on EP, citing his comments in siman 461.  In 461:18 MB
deals with what is considered "matzah" for purposes of achilas matzah.  He
says that a zaken or choleh can eat matzah shroo'yah.  However, if the
matzah is in pieces smaller than a k'zayis and the soaking process caused
the water to turn white, the matzah is nisbatel mi'toras lechem and cannot
be used for purposes of achilas matzah.  

In our case, a cake made out of matzah meal is nisbatel mi'toras
lechem--proof: you make a mezonos on it.  Therefore, you should be able to
eat on erev pesach.

Alternatively, see MB 461:20, explaining that when matzah is cooked, even if
it has toar lechem, one is not yotzei achilas matzah because the taste of
matzah has been nullified.  The same reasoning would seem to apply in the
case of cake made of matzah meal.

Kol tuv,
Moshe


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From: Noah S. Rothstein [mailto:noahrothstein@mindspring.com]
> I seem to recall that some hold that taking a shower is sufficient to
> fulfill tevilas Ezra. Anyone have any more info on this?

Rav Tzuriel, when he was mashgiach ruchani at Shaalvim, told us that we
could shower for tevilas Ezra.  Maybe he wrote this in one of his seforim?
Anybody have his seforim?

Kol tuv,
Moshe

On Tue, Mar 27, 2001 at 05:01:21PM -0500, Feldman, Mark wrote:
: Rav Tzuriel, when he was mashgiach ruchani at Shaalvim, told us that we
: could shower for tevilas Ezra.  Maybe he wrote this in one of his seforim?

I know someone who heard the same thing from R' Tzuriel, and subsequently
showers before Yamim Nora'im rather than go to a mikvah. (His family
minhag is neither, anyway.)

He makes sure to use 9 kav of water, as that was how he remembers the
shitah.

-mi

R' David Riceman wrote <<After the enlightening discussion several months
ago about fluorescent lights on Shabbos, does anyone have any profound
comments about LEDs or LCDs?>>

Profound comments? No. For some simple remarks, see below:

Rabbi L"Y Halperin considers eish to include light and heat. Cold light
is not the eish of d'oraita as it lacks one of the two constituents.

The creative act in turning on LEDs and LCDs and the issur involved,
he says, is molid ohr (light) a toladah of tikkun. When I say that the
sources speak of molid ur (fire), not ohr, he smiles. Sometimes he quotes
the shu"t Helkat Ya'akov, who says that if reiyach is a molid than light
certainly is. When I say that the nikkud in the Helkat Ya'akov should
also probably be ur and not ohr, he smiles again and then we go on to
the next subject.

K"T,
David

From: D. and E-H. Bannett [mailto:dbnet@barak-online.net]
> The creative act in turning on LEDs and LCDs and the issur involved,
> he says, is molid ohr (light) a toladah of tikkun. 

Do you mean a toldah = melachah deoraisa, or did you mean a gzeirah
d'rabbanan?  I always thought that LCDs were at most assur m'drabbanan.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

From: Micha Berger [mailto:micha@aishdas.org]
> I know someone who heard the same thing from R' Tzuriel, and subsequently
> showers before Yamim Nora'im rather than go to a mikvah....
> He makes sure to use 9 kav of water, as that was how he remembers the
> shitah.

That is what I recall as well.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

Eric Simon wrote on Areivim:
: Looking forward to hearing all tips regarding making a meaningful seder for
: children (other than the obvious: nap).

Micha Berger wrote on Areivim:
: Which brings back a question I asked a couple of years ago: What is
: the role of the haggadah's maggid (up to the first part of hallel) when
: your kids don't understand a word of what's going on?

RYBS (quoted by his grandson R. Yitzchak Lichtenstein in Siach HaGrid
12,51) noted that according to the Rambam first the children ask their
questions and then the READER says the mah nishtanah. In other words,
the kids ask their questions and THEN we start the maggid in the haggadah.
RYBS explains that the mitzvah of sippur yetzias mitzrayim is for everyone
(not just children) and by its nature must be in the form of question
and answer.

Obviously, the children should be explained the answers in the haggadah
if they don't understand them. If they don't understand a word of what's
going on, then you're not doing it right.

Gil Student

I wrote on Areivim:
: The gemara in Kiddushin 31b says that in the first twelve months one should
: say "hareini kaparas mishkavo" and after that "zichrono livrachah lechayei
: haolam haba".  I don't see people being makpid on either.  Instead they say
: "alav hashalom" or "zichrono livrachah".

Joel Rich wrote on Areivim:
: Doesn't it make you wonder why something which is a mefurash halacha, and not
: really that difficult (since,as you point out, many people do say something
: extra) is ignored.

Most of the details of aveilus are minhagim and many of these minhagim have 
changed over time (e.g. atifas harosh, kefias hamitos).  If these particular 
aspects of aveilus have also changed over time, so be it.

If this is not part of aveilus but part of kibbud av ve'eim, then the parents 
have probably been mochel and only expect the common minhag.

Gil Student

In a message dated Tue, 27 Mar 2001 6:01:25pm EST, gil.student@citicorp.com
writes:
> Most of the details of aveilus are minhagim and many of these minhagim have 
> changed over time (e.g. atifas harosh, kefias hamitos).  If these particular 
> aspects of aveilus have also changed over time, so be it.

> If this is not part of aveilus but part of kibbud av ve'eim, then the parents 
> have probably been mochel and only expect the common minhag.

From its positioning in the sifrei halacha it seems to be a din in kibud
av vem. Interesting is that the only other similar usage I could find
is in mishnayot negaim 2:1 where R' Yishmael states "Bnai Yisrael ani
kaparatan..." and yachin comments -" hinneni tachtav lkabel onsho kidei
shetkaper aleha". Could it be that this concept was too close to the
core of another religion("he died for your sins")

KT
Joel

Thinking about it, HK"M may be a reference to chibas hakeiver, and therefore
an insult to the niftar if said beyond the normal limit.

-mi

On Tue, Mar 27, 2001 at 05:29:59PM -0500, gil.student@citicorp.com wrote:
: RYBS explains that the mitzvah of sippur yetzias mitzrayim is for everyone
: (not just children) and by its nature must be in the form of question
: and answer.

: Obviously, the children should be explained the answers in the haggadah
: if they don't understand them. If they don't understand a word of what's
: going on, then you're not doing it right.

But explaining the text as published isn't question and answer.

No published text could be.

You can't both follow a tight script and be responsive. Unless you
use the words of the hagadah also as a loose script to illicit their
questions -- and then answer them. Once you've done that, do you need
to say the original words?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org            you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org       You light a candle.
(973) 916-0287                  - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l

In a message dated Tue, 27 Mar 2001 6:12:34pm EST, Micha Berger
<micha@aishdas.org> writes:
> Thinking about it, HK"M may be a reference to chibas hakeiver, and therefore
> an insult to the niftar if said beyond the normal limit.

It's only for the 1st 12 months - it differs from kaddish since in month
12 not saying kaddish is a shev val taaseh versus having to say something
when you mention your parent's name - either hk"m or Z"l.

KT
joel

RNW asks:
> I seek sources, especially SH"uT, about the obligation/miinhag of
> Leviyim washing hands of Kohanim before Nesi-as Kapayim.

I have seen none of these so I welcome corrections (and additions!):

1. Shu"t Rashba"n 88 [Shelomoh Tsevi b. Natan Shik]
2. Mahara"sh le-Bet ha-Levi 9-10 [Shelomoh b. Yitshak]
3. Mahar"i le-Bet ha-Levi kelal 5 nos. 39-41 [Yaakov b. Yisrael]
4. `Ein Mishpat 2 [Avraham ha-Levi]
5. Darkei No`am 12 [Mordecai ha-Levi]
6. Mishpetei `Uziel [mahadurah tinyana] 8 [Bentsiyon Meir hay Uziel]
7. Igrot Mosheh OH 4: 127 
8. Shevet ha-Levi 8:47 [Shemuel ha-Levi Wosner]

Hag kasher ve-sameah,

Yisrael Dubitsky

I see from the Tosfot in Pesachim 35b d"h "u'mei peirot ein machamitzim"
and Pesachim 99b d"h "lo yochal" that Rabbeu Tam used to eat matza
ashira up til the 9th hour on erev pessach. The MAHARAL in Gevurot Hashem,
Perek 48 quoting the ROSH and TUR also mentions the permissibility of eating
matza ashira up to the 9th hour [and mentions that Rabbenu Tam used to do
this specifically on Erev Pessach shechal b'Shabbat].

BTW a Sefardi who daavens in our shul mentioned this evening what
Rav Ovadia Yosef recommended to do (Erev Pessach shechal b'shabbat):
they take matza before shabbat, COOK it in soup (!), remove it whole,
and let in dry in the oven. This removes its status as matza but still
engenders a bracha of *hamotzi*.

Josh

Menachem Burack:
> Rav Jolte zt"l, former chief rabbi of Yerushalayim, suggested eating matzos
> that were baked "she'lo l'shem matzo mitzvah" - since you cannot be yotze
> with them on Pesach - you can eat them erev Pessach.

what about the geschmak of matzah? I thought we also want to avoid the taste
so that we can relish it so much more at the seder.

Micha Berger:
> I know someone who heard the same thing from R' Tzuriel, and subsequently
> showers before Yamim Nora'im rather than go to a mikvah....
> He makes sure to use 9 kav of water, as that was how he remembers the
> shitah.

how do you measure out 9 kav in the shower?

From: SBA <sba@blaze.net.au> (To: areivim <areivim@aishdas.org>)
> I am not sure if this is a Hungarian(Oberlander?) thing or maybe
> universal: after the Rov Hakehilla (and sometimes visiting Rabbonim)
> are Oleh leTorah, when making a misheberach - unlike us 'civilians' who,
> when we get to "baavur sh'reb ploni yiten $$$ letzedoko baavurom...",
> with them it's "baavur sh'harav ploni tzivoh levorchom..."

> One visiting rav however made a fuss about this, saying: "What a chutzpah
> of any rav to be metzaveh the RBSO anything..." We, however pointed out
> that the 'tzivo levorchom' refers to the gabai making the misheberach
> rather than an order to the RBSO...

RHS reports in Nefesh Harav that RYBS was against mishebeirachs unless the
Oleh gave tzedakah as part of the mishebeirach.  He said that w/o giving
tzedakah, this constitutes Iyun Tefillah, which is prohibited by the gemara
Brachos.  (I don't recall whether he added the following:) Our paradigm for
someone telling Hashem--"if you do for me X, I'll do Y"--is Yaakov Avinu.
Yaakov's Y was "aser a'asrenu lach."

Kol tuv,
Moshe

Micah seems to have misunderstood my intentions in asking for observations
on sky changes starting at sunset. I have no intention of correcting
observations for specific atmospheric corrections. Small differences
between observers at similar lattitudes (and similar altitudes) can
be lumped under observational uncertainty. The plan is to arrive at a
qualitative understanding of how long the eastern sky (or clouds) are
reddened by the sun just after sunset; how long it takes for the eastern
sky to achieve a uniform dark coloration; how long after that to find
(outside the city and bright lights) 3 stars of average brightness (not
Jupiter, Venus, Saturn, mars, or Sirius and other very bright stars);
how long for the western sky to lose its redness; to achieve a uniform
coloration; for 3 closely spaced stars of below average brightness to
appear; and for stars to appear in the lower western sky (again outside
the city and bright lights). The object is to better relate the various
shiurim that have been given - to actual sky changes. The Gemara in
Shabbat 34b, 35b deals primarily with such changes whether its the
appearance of the sky according to Rabbi Yehuda or the appearance of
stars according to Rabbi Yosi. The given shiurim (for the lattitude
of the Tanaim and Amoraim at the spring and fall equinoxes) have to
be understood in that context, it seems to me. This is why it is most
puzzling that Rabbenu Tam, apparently, makes no attempt to relate his
sof shkia thesis to anything observed; not to Rabbi Yehuda's "hichsif
ha'elyon ve'hishva le'tachton" and not to Rava's looking at the redness
of the western sky. Perhaps observations will help clarify the matter.

Yitzchok Zlochower

The following is from Rabbi J. David Bleich's Halochos of Erev Pesach Which 
Occurs on Shabbos (SOY:1994) p. 10.  This section is reproduced from his 
Contemporary Halachic Problems vol. 1.

"Rabbi Feinstein cautions that when egg mazah is used for the morning meal, 
this repast must be completed early in the day before the time during which 
hamez may be consumed has elapsed.  He points out that such procedure is 
necessary because Rema, Orah Hayyim 462:4, records that use of egg mazah is 
to be restricted to the sick and the elderly who are incapable of chewing 
ordinary mazah.  All others are not permitted to partake of egg mazah during 
Pesah or on Erev Pesah after the fourth hour (Rema, Orah Hayyim 444:1).  The 
requirement that egg mazah be eaten early in the day necessitates that the 
Shabbat services be held at an early hour in order to aford sufficient time 
for the Sabbath meal to be completed before the time has elapsed during 
which hamez may be eaten.  Not cited by Rabbi Feinstein is the divergent 
opinion of Arukh ha-Shulhan 444:5, who offers a different interpretation of 
Rema 444:1 and permits the use of egg mazah later in the day as well[3]."

"[3] See also Shulhan Arukh ha-Rav, Orah Hayyim 444:2-3; Noda bi-Yehudah, I, 
Orah Hayyim, no. 21; and R. Moshe Binyamin Tomashoff, Avnei Shoham, III, no. 
11. It should be noted that R. Feinstein's interpretation of Rema is 
consistent with the opinion of R. Akiva Eger as contained in a gloss on R. 
Ya'akov Emden's Derekh ha-Hayyim published in Siddur Ozar Yisra'el, II, 
958."

Gil Student

Is there any source for davenning Shacharis relatively late, making
kiddush and having the meal b'zman and then having leining and Musaf
later in the day (like we do on Simchas Torah). As one of the lunatics
involuntarily appointed to run things at my shul this Pesach, I would
be interested in responses.

Wouldn't permissibility of gebrokts erev pesach depend on whether one
considered gebrokts to be chometz or not -- for instance, some chassidic
groups in CHuL actually use different kelim on Acharon Shel Pesach than
for the rest of Pesach. 

From: "Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer"

> "Challah" Rolls mae from Matzo Meal and water plus some egg flavoring. Can 
> be eaten after Chatzos, lichora, as well - good for Se'udah Shelishis (you 
> can wash if you are kovei'ah se'udah, like egg chometz challos).
> Works?

Yes. 

However, the Aruch HaShulchan states unequivically that MeIkkar HaDin,
bread is required based on the the positions of the Rif, The Rambam, the
Rosh, the Tur, and the SA, that Shaleshudes can only be fulfilled through
bread. As I posted several weeks ago: The best method of fulfilling
the Seudah requirements is to eat Chametz before Shah HaAsiri. This way
you can be MeKaim the requirements of Seudah B'Pas and Lechem Mishneh
with Sheleimos. IOW you eat both day meals before the tenth hour of the
day. In order to avoid making a Bracha SheAino Tzricha, you wash for
the first meal (on Lechem Mishna), eat a Kezayis, Bentch, WALK AWAY FOR
A SHORT WHILE (so as not to make it appear that you are just bentching
in order to artificially create another Seudah) and then wash again for
Shaleshudes on Lechem Mishna... ALL BEFORE TEN OCLOCK.

Eventhough this doesn't fulfill the requirements that some Poskim have
of eating Shaleshedos after the sixth hour, prefferebly after Davening
Mincha, at least it is fulfilled according to those who say that you
can be Yotze Shaleshudos in the morning, and this is after all B'shas
Hadchak. In order to satisfy those Shitos which say you aren't Yotze
Shaleshudos in ther morning, you can then rely on those who say you can
be Yotze Shaleshudos with meat or fruit and eat that after the sixth hour.

Of course there are some people who eat Matza Ashira, and IIUC this is
what the CRC and the Dayan Of Agudath Israel of the Midwest reccomend. I
question this practice because of the Chashash that Matza Ashira is
actual chametz according to one Shittah (Beis Shammai?).

The Gra did not eat Shaleshudes under these conditions.

Botom line: Any way you do it, you compromise something but if you eat
Pas and you have Lechem Mishneh, I think you are satisfying the maximum
number of parameters.

HM

Rabbi YGB suggests the use of Matzah Mehl Rolls on Erev pesach.  My
research suggests that according to most authorities, the prohibition of
matzah on Erev pesach includes items baked with matzah mehl (e.g., cakes
and cookies), but not those cooked (e.g., Kneidelach - kufta'ot) [OH
444, MB no. 8] or fried (matzah brei, chremzelach) [See for example,
Erev Pesach she-Hal be-Shabbat, R. Zvi Cohen, chap. 21, parag. 5 and
note 10].

Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer

> A local rav pointed out that the issur of eating matzah erev pesach is
> only from Alos. Friday night one could theoretically eat any 
> matzah with no problem.

What about the minhag of not eating Matzoh from Rosh Chodesh or even from
Purim?

Eli Turkel

Our rav told us that Rav Ovadia Yosef said to fry the matza in oil and
egg, and then let it cool so it wouldn't break and then one can use it
for lechem mishna. I don't think that he mentioned soup, but anything that
"adds" to the matzo to enrich it should do to make it not legal matza.

Our rav also said, though, that even though there were those who eat matza
ahira until the 9th hour, there was another opinion [don't remember who]
that said until noon, so we should finish with our seudah shilishit by
halachic noontime.

--Rena

From: "Yitzchok Willroth" <willroth@jersey.net>
>The Mishna Berurah suggests kneidlach for Shalosh Seudos...  I immediately
>also came onto the idea of matzo flour "rolls", but I wondered why one
>couldn't
>take it further and use them for ALL THREE meals of Shabbos?  The entire
>house could be cometz-free before Shabbos & the bitul could be done Friday
>morning along with the biur...

                                                                 Bs"d
I was also going to post about this connection bw kneidelach and Pesach 
rolls. But what's different about them and a cake or cookies made from M. 
meal? Don't we say that kneidels have totally lost their to'ar lechem, but 
cake hasn't? If so, why should rolls be different? Also, RYGB, why do you 
say Carl was taught wrong?

Eli

Menachem Burack:
> Rav Jolte zt"l, former chief rabbi of Yerushalayim, suggested eating matzos 
> that were baked "she'lo l'shem matzo mitzvah" - since you cannot be yotze
> with them on Pesach - you can eat them erev Pessach.
     
Steve Katz wrote:
> what about the geschmak of matzah? I thought we also want to avoid the 
> taste so that we can relish it so much more at the seder.

The Maharsha on Pesachim 99b suggests that problem regarding matzahs baked by 
a gentile.  There is a tumult in the acharonim regarding this Maharsha.  

Gil Student

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