Avodah Mailing List

Volume 06 : Number 150

Thursday, March 8 2001

• Re: RTam and Astronomical Tables-Not
• Re: shitas Chasam Sofer re nightfall
• computer checking ST
• How Far Are We Obligated to Use Technology for Precision in Halacha?
• RE: How Far Are We Obligated to Use Technology for Precision in Halacha?
• How Far Are We Obligated to Use Technology for Precision in Halacha
• Re: How Far Are We Obligated to Use Technology for Precision in Halacha?
• Purim Seudah on Erev Shabbos
• plag/Purim Seudah on Friday
• Erev Pesach that Falls on Shabbat
• Purim Meshulosh
• Re: Toras Purim
• Hilchos Aveilus
• Re: Avodah V6 #148
• washing before touching a megillah
• Re: chelek Eloak
• Re: Life span
• RE: Avodah V6 #148
• Rabbinic authority
• RE: making brachos on Sifrei Torah
• RE: How Far Are We Obligated to Use Technology for Precision in Halacha?
• Re: making brachos on Sifrei Torah
• Yisurim in a Child
• Re: Yisurim in a Child
• RE: Yisurim in a Child

On 6 Mar 01, at 12:49, Micha Berger wrote:
> The K'vasikin minyan that I sometimes attend...
>             They map haneitz to 1 sec accuracy.

> This isn't k'vasikin, though -- the vasikin were unable to be that accurate.

Will that work outside the US? Is it expensive? 

[No, and I don't know. -mi]

Seriously though, while not all vasikin minyanim are quite that down
to the second, we use a chart that is accurate to within five seconds,
and we use a watch that is set exactly to the second. I think the idea
is that we do the best we can under the circumstances. If I were in a
place where I didn't have a luach, then I would have to figure it out
based on watching for the sun.

-- Carl

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

>From: Phyllostac@aol.com
>I heard an address a while ago by the renowned Rabbi Dr. Shneur Z. Leiman....
>           when the teshuvos (or another sefer) of the Chasam Sofer were
>reprinted here in the USA (perhaps the first time after WWII?) the text was
>tampered with....                                                 It stated
>that they davened maariv 20 something minutes after the shkia and perhaps ten
>minutes later on (motzei)  Shabbos...
>Someone didn't like those numbers evidently - so he changed them to be more
>in line with the Rabbeinu Tam shita.
>It created a scandal of sorts....

Considering that he has a tshuva that states clearly that he holds like RT 
(as did his father in law R. Akiva Eiger) I find this quite intetresting.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: "Akiva Atwood" <atwood@netvision.net.il>
> ...The rate of posul seforim is fairly high, and while we assume a
> sefer to be kosher once it has been checked by two people, the fact is that
> it's fairly easy to posul a sefer if you look hard enough.

Some years ago I read in a publication of the Vaad Mishmeres Stam that
whilst ST written prior to the war had a small percentage of psulim,
post war ST's psulim are very high.

They put it down to the magihim these days being paid 'piece work'
(or some similar reason) - so they rush thru the job...

I also read of a story about a leading rebbe who wasn't too enthusiastic
about endorsing this new modern idea of computer checking ST.

However after his personal ST (which he was convinced was perfect) was
checked and found to contain several errors, he quickly changed his mind.

SBA

From: "Akiva Atwood" <atwood@netvision.net.il>
> Not to mention those that the human has no way of detecting, such as
> mezuzos which had been (fraudulently) fixed.

> I don't know how a computer could check this -- this is an area 
> where you must rely on the sofer's yiras shamayim.

I also thought so until I saw the Va'ad program.  Each mezuza, or
tefila or sefer Torah which is scanned has a unique "signature"  which
identifies it uniquely from all others. The fellow demonstrating the
program showed a mezuza and challenged us (a sofer friend and myself) to
find something wrong with it.  We couldn't.  He then scanned it in and it
came up "chaser teiva".   The computer recognized the "signature" and
"said"   "Last time I saw this mezuza it was missing a word".  Presumably
an unscrupulous dealer* had it fixed by an equally unscrupulous sofer and
resold it.

        *who was smarter than the one who tried this on a local store
here but forgot to erase the word "posul" from the back of the mezuza!   

Not a substitute for yiras shamayim but an excellent adjunct!!

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

>        I also thought so until I saw the Va'ad program.  Each mezuza, or
> tefila or sefer Torah which is scanned has a unique "signature"  which
> identifies it uniquely from all others.

Assuming it had already been scanned once before by that computer. I wasn't
aware of this feature -- but it makes sense.

Akiva

I would like to point out, that i belive that the debate seems to be as to
how accurate the computer is and not as to technology an halacha.
As to technology and halach there are 2 faces. On where technology helps us
with halacha and one were it differs from halacha. I believe that were it
help we should use it, and when it differs then the questions begin.

Chaim Turkel

On Tue, Mar 06, 2001 at 11:41:11PM +0200, Akiva Atwood wrote:
: Exactly. The rate of posul seforim is fairly high, and while we assume a
: sefer to be kosher once it has been checked by two people...

This brings up a parallel question to the one I asked a while back about
mezuzah.

Does one require a kosher seifer Torah for leining, or a seifer Torah that
has a chezkas kashrus?

-mi

I understand that Rav Goldvicht, a Rosh Yeshiva at YU, intends to begin
his Purim seudah this Friday in mid-afternoon as usual, and to continue
the meal into Shabbos per the gemora. One of the rebbeiim here in Silver
Spring told me that he did this the last time Purim was Erev Shabbos.
And I have been told that R. Shlomo Carlebach z"l did this whenever
Purim fell on Erev Shabbos.

Jeff Zuckerman

From: "S. Goldstein" <goldstin@netvision.net.il>
> What about for melacha after plag hamincha on Shabbos? No way!  Even Rabbi
> Yehuda never said this!!! ...

There are also shitos that hold that Erev Shabbos one should not do
malakos after plag -- few folks hold that way but I have heard of some
who do 

From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
>> Isn't there something about being oker the Shulchan when Shabbos starts,
>> making Kiddush and resuming the meal?
> 
> Heard last Friday that a certain rebbe used to do that when he had a
> smaller olam; can't get away with it any more....

Perhaps other Rebbeim used to do so as well, but the Lubavitcher Rebbe
would do this if a farbrengen ran into Shabbos -- in fact, mid'raisa you
would be required to as you cannot eat after shkia erev Shabbos (even
continuing a meal which you have already started).

The trick, of course, is, where are you going to find a late Maariv
minyan so as to daven Maariv after the seudah.   

    My friend Eli Turkel wrote me regarding to the possibility of eating
Kitniyot on Erev Pesach. My research indicates that it is a machloket
haPoskim. (See Erev Pesach she-Hal Be-Shabbat, R. Zvi Kohen, Chapter 21,
no. 4; Mikraei Kodesh, R. Moshe Harari, Chapter 1, no. 3, bottom of page
7; Shmirat Shabbat Kehilchato, II, Chapter 56, note 54):
    The Pri Migadim, Eshel Avraham OH 444, no.2 indicates that the
prohibition is only on Pesach proper but erev pesach it is permissible.
    The Hok Yaakov, however, OH 471 no. 2 forbids it. So does the book
Pesach Me'ubin

    The above cited texts are not machri'a. However, R. Gavriel Zinner,
Nitei gavriel, Hag HaPesach, II, Kitniyot, no. 14 is machria like the
stringent school, based on Resp. Shevet HaLevi (R. Samuel ha-Levi
Wosner) III, sec 31) that this is the custom.

    I would appreciate some feedback, mekorot, or testimony as to a
custom/hachra'a on this issue.
                                Kol Tuv and happy Purim
                            "I got the here-come-Pesach Blues"

                                                Aryeh
--
Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer
Ethel and David Resnick Professor
   of Active Oxygen Chemistry
Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University
Ramat Gan 52900, ISRAEL
E-mail: FrimeA@mail.biu.ac.il
Tel: 972-3-5318610; Fax: 972-3-5351250
Tel Home: 972-8-9473819/9470834

Regarding what to do in Yerushalayim when Shushan Purim falls on Shabbos,
as it does this year, R' Carl Sherer wrote:

<<< 3. You're supposed to be marbeh b'seuda on Shabbos. How one measures
this ribbui seuda, I have not yet figured out. Maybe I'll tell my wife we
should have an extra cake for dessert :-) (This last happened seven years
ago and I don't remember what we did). >>>

Isn't this a general rule when two or more Seudos Mitzvah overlap? Like
when Yom Tov or Rosh Chodesh or Chanuka fall on Shabbos, or when a bris
or sheva brochos falls on such an occasion?

I must admit though, like R' Carl, I am clueless how to implement this
l'maaseh.

Akiva Miller

From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
>Bamidbar 34:4 (first mention of Adar in the Torah); note five locations
>corresponding to NARANCH"Y.

At 09:29 AM 3/7/01 -0500, Markowitz, Chaim wrote [in private email]:
>Can you please elaborate? Thanks.

Nefesh, Ruach, Neshomo, Chayah, Yechidah, the five parts  of the soul.

KT,
YGB
ygb@aishdas.org      http://www.aishdas.org/rygb

I was told tonight by someone that the Chasam Sofer opposed anyone
(except rabbonim) learning hilchos aveilus,  and that dire things had
happened to all the members of a certain chabura (IIRC in Lakewood many
years ago) who undertook this limud.

I told him it was a bubba (Bove) ma'aseh at which he became seriously
offended.  I asked him to show me the Chasam Sofer but at that point
rational conversation was mimenu ulehalan.

Has anyone heard this story?

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

I would like to propose a question. How would you define the position of a
rav. What is his halacik position, and what is his social position. If i
recall corerctly, in halacha there is the king, sanhedrin, sofet, navi,
cohen. Besides thoses menstioned I do not recall any halach that binds me to
the decistion of a rav. Today I have come to believe that the position of a
rav is simmial to a doctor. We go to the doctor since he has knoledge that
we do not.
What do you think?

Chaim Turkel

With regards to the question of washing before touching a megillah, I
suggest seeing the Maharil, Hilchot Purim se'if 16 and the Sha'arei Teshuvah
to Siman 691, note (3).

Purim Sameach,
Stuart Fischman

R' Gil wrote:
> Note the name change.  I'm surprised that no one has mentioned it yet, 
> considering the grammatical nitpickers we have on this list.

The correction was certainly noticed and considered an improvement.
There are so many opportunities for grammatical nitpicking on the
list that I've pretty much given up on it This lack of response on
my part seems to hold true even when, as in this example, I have been
seriously annoyed at seeing inventions of new names for God. This use
of non-existent words as names for HKBH is something that ROY has called
"mecharef umegaddef".

BTW, ROY would consider your improvement as being in the same above
category. Eloak and Kel are neither names of HKBH nor descriptive
kinuyim. They are inventions. We mortals, he says, have no right to
invent names for HKBH.

Of course, I, as an Ashkenazi, continue to say Elokeinu as I was taught
as a child. That doesn't mean I approve or agree.

David

R' Gil wrote:
> The Rashbatz discusses this in his Magen Avos (5:25 sv. Ben shivim).
> ..and sugggests... that Adam was not born from a "tipah seruchah"
> and was therefore very strong. As the generations progressed and people
> became more distant from their "pure" origin, they lost that strength
> and their life spans shortened.

Did anyone note the similarity of this suggestion to that of R' Natan
Aviezer already mentioned on this list, namely the gene mutation that
started to cause aging.

D.

Chaim Turkel:
> I would like to propose a question. How would you define the position of a
> rav. What is his halacik position, and what is his social position. If i
> recall corerctly, in halacha there is the king, sanhedrin, sofet, navi,
> cohen. Besides thoses menstioned I do not recall any halach that binds me to
> the decistion of a rav. Today I have come to believe that the position of a
> rav is simmial to a doctor...

Professor Agus devoted an entire lecutre to this...

The authority for Halachah was vested in the Sanhedrin At the Churban,
R. Yochanan Ben Zakkai created the titles Rabbi and Rabban to create a
brand new authority. Dr. Agus called this tutorial authority. Since I
am your teacher, you are obligated to follow my psak.

He further claims that is my the honorific of Rabbi did not pre-exist
the Churban, the use of Rabban for Gamliel and RSBG seniors was a taus
sofrim. Only the juniors were post Churban.

Thus the statement, those called by their names (e.g. Hillel and Shammai)
were superior to those who had the title Rabbi (e.g. Rabban Gamliel, Rabbi
Akiva, etc.), This is easy to understand from a niskatnu perspective.
Pre-churban masters were superior to post-churban masters now called
rabbi.

The concept of authority is based upon the Rabbi being a teacher. Now
certain gedolim who are experts become Rabban shel kol Yisrael. E.G. I
would say R. Moshe Feinstein was one such Rabban shel kol Yisrael.
Why? R. Moshe taught the teachers. Bepashtus he was a master of the
masters.

The authority of a mora d'asra stems from his teaching halacha. Vayeshev
Moshe lishpot es ha'am. The process of ruling IS the process of teaching,
at least in a sense.

The authority vested in a rabbi who has no official position as either
a teacher or more hora'a seems to me analogous to honoris cuasa. It is
similar to the German Chaver Title. It is a recognition of mastering
a course of learning, but carries no official weight. It is arguable
that a Rosh Yeshiva would have more authority than a pulpit rabbi in
that he teaches more. The power is a function of Torah transmission.
A rabbi who has no pulpit but gives a shiur, even a voluntary shiur,
is Defacto officiating as rabbi in the sense of teaching disciples.

Good Purim
Rich Wolpoe

On Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 11:49:12AM -0500, Wolpoe, Richard wrote:
: The authority for Halachah was vested in the Sanhedrin At the Churban,
: R. Yochanan Ben Zakkai created the titles Rabbi and Rabban to create a
: brand new authority. Dr. Agus called this tutorial authority. Since I
: am your teacher, you are obligated to follow my psak.

I think it fits quite well with the gemara in Sanhedrin recently
cited here. A poseik acts midin shelichus for the last Sanhedrin.

Dr. Agus is saying that RYbZ explicitly set that up.

-mi

From: Akiva Atwood [mailto:atwood@netvision.net.il]
>          The rate of posul seforim is fairly high, and while we assume a
> sefer to be kosher once it has been checked by two people, the fact is that
> it's fairly easy to posul a sefer if you look hard enough.

Somehow, I thought that there's a tzad l'hakel based on the Ramo who says
that b'dievad (and I mean b'dievad--when it was unwittingly done) one can
rely on the shittah that one may be yotzai kriyas hatorah on a sefer torah
which one *knows* to be pasul.  That's why, when we find a psul in a sefer
torah, we don't start reading the parsha all over again.  

Could someone please find the cite to that Ramo?

Kol tuv,
Moshe

> This brings up a parallel question to the one I asked a while
> back about mezuzah.

Or Tefillin, for that matter.

>
> Does one require a kosher seifer Torah for leining, or a
> seifer Torah that has a chezkas kashrus?

If you are asking "does it have to be 100% kosher", then the question would
seem to be the same as the discussion on hasgachya -- does food have to be
100% kosher without any possible doubt, or is chezkas kashrut enough?

In either case, we have an obligation to ensure *to the best of our ability*
the kashrut involved.

Akiva

In a message dated 3/7/01 12:50:41pm EST, MFeldman@CM-P.COM writes:
> Somehow, I thought that there's a tzad l'hakel based on the Ramo who says
> that b'dievad (and I mean b'dievad--when it was unwittingly done) one can
> rely on the shittah that one may be yotzai kriyas hatorah on a sefer torah
> which one *knows* to be pasul....

> Could someone please find the cite to that Ramo?

See O"C 143:4


Kol Tuv, 
Yitzchok Zirkind

[Carl wrote that he intended this for Avodah, not Areivim. So, I'm
reposting it here. -mi]

This may be an unanswerable question, but I thought I would throw it
out anyway to see if the Chevra have any thoughts on it.

How do we understand yisurim in a child?

Don't get me wrong - I'm not asking questions in emunah (or maybe I am -
but I'm not R"L experiencing weakness in emunah). But when an adult R"L
suffers we say that the suffering is being memareik his chatoim. When a
child R"L dies early, we say that he was a gilgul of another neshama that
had a tafkid to complete in this world which is limited in time. Those
are fine, pat explanations. But why does a child suffer R"L? If s/he has
not reached gil onshim then there should be no onesh. And if s/he hasn't
reached gil mitzvos, there should be no cheit either. Meileh - you want
to tell me that the child is taken early R"L because that's what the
neshama's tafkid was, I understand that. But yissurim - at least in the
sense that is observable - are to the guf and not to the neshama. So why
does a child suffer? Are we capable of understanding it, or is this just
an instance of "yesharim darchei Hashem" and we just have to accept it?

-- Carl
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 09:25:20PM +0200, Carl M. Sherer wrote:
: How do we understand yisurim in a child?

Isn't this a curtain call for people's thoughts on tzadik via lo? A child
or a tzaddik can't be recieving onshim, so why does it happen?

RYBS's answer in Kol Dodi Dofeik is that the question can't be answered.
Any attempt to address theodicy is going to insult the intellect or the
emotions, and quite likely both. Besides, Yahadus doesn't aim at answering
"why", it aims at telling us "what shall I do about it?"

"Kesheim shemivarchim al hatov, kach mivarchim al hara", RYBS continues.
Just as we dedicate all the good that comes are way to be tools in our
avodas Hashem, we also dedicate ourselves through our responses to
suffering.

Despite this, I think we need to rise to the challenge. Realizing that it's
a case of lo alecha hamlachah ligmor, we can never really answer the question,
HKBH is asking us the question by allowing suffering. We need to grapple
with it, because in that we associate the pain with G-d, we use it to
motivate our exploring our relationship with Him.

Consider the rest of this email in that line.

:                                                                  When a
: child R"L dies early, we say that he was a gilgul of another neshama that
: had a tafkid to complete in this world which is limited in time. Those
: are fine, pat explanations.

This is a question that the Ribbono shel olam asked me. So I spent much time
thinking about it.

We might invoke the notion of gilgul, but R' Saadia Gaon wouldn't. Even
without positing that the neshamah had a history before this birth, it
could still be that it was a neshamah whose potential can be fulfilled
with next-to-nothing in additional labor.

The "fine, pat explanation" bit is exactly what RYBS wrote about.

:                                 why does a child suffer R"L? If s/he has
: not reached gil onshim then there should be no onesh.

S'char mitzvos behai alma leika. One would assume the same is true of
on'shim. R' Nachum ish gamzu's "gam zu litovah", or R' Akiva's (his talmid)
"kol man di'avad rachmana litav avad" suggests as much.

We live these lives so as to reach a level of "his-halech lifanai viheyei
samim"; to change ourselves into dovkim bashem, sheleimim, perfect keilim
to recieve His shefa. This is hatavah, preparation. As opposed to ra, which
RSRH associates with /reish-ayin-ayin/, to shatter. "Gam zu litovah", this
too is part of the path my soul must travel for hatavah. Whatever we get
in this world is whatever HKBH decides would maximize our potential in
comparison to where we are now.

Sometimes, that may mean nisyonos, having to realize some latent ability
and excercise it. Which is how the Ramban understands the point of the
akeidah; Avraham had to actualize that level of mesiras nefesh.

Sometimes, r"l, it may mean having to be awoken from the rut one was in.
Yissurim have a role, and we may think of them as on'shim, but they are
necessarily the full onesh of the cheit.

Sometimes one may recieve tov because HKBH wants to encourage the path
we're currently following. Sometimes because HKBH doesn't think we're up
to the nisayon of doing without.

Without having Hashem's ability to see the subjunctive, to know what would
have been without the ra, we really can't answer the question "why?"


A different approach can be based on Yeshaiah, "yotzeir or uvorei choshech,
oseh shalom uvorei es hara" (chazal euphamized the last word of the pasuk).
Ra is choshech, an absence, not a beryah.

And if tzimtzum is the illusion of a vaccum, so that things can appear to
exist independant of the Borei, then evil is only an apparant vacuum.

Again, RYBS criticised attempts to say that suffering isn't real. It doesn't
help the sufferer in his tafkid. But that in itself shows that the suffering
serves the person's purpose, and is therefore only apparantly evil. For us,
though, evil is to be lived through and dealt with, not dismissed. Otherwise,
why would Hashem have created it?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org            you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org       You light a candle.
(973) 916-0287                  - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l

On Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 09:25:20PM +0200, Carl M. Sherer wrote:
> : How do we understand yisurim in a child?

From: Micha Berger [mailto:micha@aishdas.org]
> RYBS's answer in Kol Dodi Dofeik is that the question can't 
> be answered.

For more along RMB's line of thinking, see R. Shalom Carmy's article on
Suffering in the Orthodox Forum book about Suffering.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

*********************


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