Avodah Mailing List

Volume 06 : Number 114

Monday, January 29 2001

• Re: Elevators and Fluorescent Lights
• Re: Shabbat elevator
• Elevators and fluorescents
• Re: Non-Jews prohibited by rabbinic law?
• Re: Non-Jews prohibited by rabbinic law?
• Re: Elevators and fluorescents

At 11:36 PM 1/21/01 +0200, D. and E-H. Bannett wrote:

>I did not disagree with any assumptions. I wrote that some aspects of
>elevator operation were misunderstood. The errors were in things stated
>as physical facts. I have no argument with the excellent summary of
>different halakhic sources and views. I question only those views or
>halakhic decisions that stem from incorrect data.

Which is all the more reason we are grateful that you will come around to 
explain matters to us next month. Quite frankly, based on the complexities 
that you have raised till now, the very thought of making elevators Shabbos 
worthy seems to be a dizzying proposition.

>RYGB wrote:
> > what locations actually have the "right" kind of Shabbos elevators
> > ... Might you please instruct us over the course of several posts?
>
>Engineers are not qualified to decide what is the "right" kind. My
>personal habit, one that has no halakhic significance for others, is that
>I do not use any elevator not approved or that would not be approved by
>the Institute for Science and Halakha in Jerusalem.

How does one know that the elevator has been approved? I once heard that 
only Sha'arei Tzedek hospital and the Plaza hotel have such approved elevators.

>Rabbi Halperin was asked by one who had to light a lamp on Shabbat
>whether he should light a fluorescent ("cold" light is not eish) or
>an incandescent. R' Halperin told him to choose the incandescent which
>has only one gahelet shel matekhet rather than the fluorescent that has
>two separate sources of gahelet shel matekhet in addition to the "cold"
>fluorescent light along the tube.
>
>David

RSZA holds that it is the length of the wire, not the number of wires, that 
determine which is the lesser prohibition. It is for that reason that he 
holds it is better to light fluorescent lights than incandescent ones b'eis 
ha'tzorech.


KT,
YGB

ygb@aishdas.org      http://www.aishdas.org/rygb

On 26 Jan 01, at 15:00, D. and E-H. Bannett wrote:
> The modern alternative to a goy pushing the buttons is a preset
> automatic program. The preprogrammed elevator travels between stations
> and waits at each station for a fixed time without taking into account
> presence or absence of passengers. 

What happens if you try to push your way into the elevator as the 
door is starting to close? During the week, an electric eye would 
reopen the door. But on Shabbos, there should be no electric eye. 
Will the door continue to close? Or will it be forced open 
somehow? And if it is forced open, is that a grama or is it a direct 
chilul Shabbos?

> The goy, even without amira, does a
> similar thing but with a slight difference. The goy, if he sees you
> coming might wait for you to arrive. If he knows the floor you want,
> he will take you directly there. He is working for you and his only
> benefit is his salary. 

Not necessarily. What if I am in a hotel and the goy knows what 
floor I am going to, but his salary is not coming from me? I don't 
say a word to him (other than hello) and he takes me to the floor to 
which I want to go.

BTW - I am told that there are poskim who allow chutznikim in 
Eretz Yisrael to ride in buses on Yom Tov Sheini provided that the 
driver has to open the door for an Israeli anyway, and that an Israeli 
pays for the chutznik. The claim is that there is no mar'es ayin 
issue, because it's not Yom Tov for most of the country anyway, 
and that there is no weight issue, because the additional weight to 
the bus is negligible. Are the issues with a bus that much different 
than with an elevator? What about driving a chutznik in my car on 
Yom Tov Sheini?

-- Carl
Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

RYGB is still pushing me to work Quotes and my comments follow. If you'll
glance at the time recorded above, I think you'll agree it's a hell of
a way to spend Saturday night.

> the very thought of making elevators Shabbos worthy seems to be a dizzying 
> proposition.

You just solved a mystery, I have wondered why I've been dizzy for the
past thirty years.


> I once heard that only Sha'arei Tzedek hospital and the Plaza hotel
> have such approved elevators.

A few years ago the Plaza (it now has a new name) did a complete
modernization of their elevators. To discourage the use of non-standard
parts and thus allow maintenance by less trained personnel, the elevator
company gave a high price for meeting R' Halperin's requirements and
told the hotel that, for a lower price. they could offer elevators with
other approvals. The Institute could longer approves the Plaza.

Sha'arei Tzedek is still approved by the Institute. Maybe it's lucky
that they have no money for an update. The elevators have been running
for some 25 years.

> RSZA holds that it is the length of the wire, not the number of wires,
> that determine which is the lesser prohibition. It is for that reason
> that he holds it is better to light fluorescent lights than incandescent
> ones b'eis ha'tzorech.

Sorry I don't understand your comment. Let me add a few details to what
I wrote about fluorescents. The main light in a fluorescent is from
the glowing of the material that coats the inside walls of the long
tube. The energy source for the fluorescence is invisible radiation from
the ionized gas in the tube. To ionize the gas and then keep it ionized,
most fluorescents do two separate things (again, like tzvei dinim :-). The
120 or 230 volt supply applied to the metal electrodes, one at each end
of the tube, is not sufficiently high to ionize the gas but, once ionized,
the voltage supply is more than enough to keep it ionized.

To accomplish the initial ionization, the electrodes at each end are
heated by passing current through them for a few seconds. In older
slow starting fluorescents that use a small cylindrical starter unit
(often called rapid start!) you can see the reddish glow at the two
ends before the tube lights up. When the electrodes are hot enough, a
high voltage pulse of about 800 volts is applied momentarily between the
electrodes. This ionizes the gas and lights the tube. At the same time,
the heating of the two electrodes is disconnected.

As the electrons and mercury gas ions flow through the tube they gather
speed and bombard the electrodes. The bombardment cause heating of the
electrodes that makes them white hot, ke-1000 degrees Celsius, b'erekh
(ke-1800 Fahrenheit). They are two separate incandescent pieces of metal,
one at each end of the tube. The bombardment and heat also knock off
small bits of electrode. For that reason, fluorescent tubes get a black
deposit on the glass at the two ends as the metal is eroded.

There are now two bright white light sources a few feet apart connected
by a radiating energized gas. The radiation hits the tube coating which
then gives off a whitish, yellowish or, at the butcher, pinkish glow
that we call fluorescent light.

When one turns on a fluorescent, he connects current that heats two
electrodes to a glow, generates a high voltage pulse, disconnects the
initial heating circuit, ionizes a gas that heats the two electrodes
further to bright white glow, and causes additional light to be given off
by the fluorescent material. All this in one rapid continuous operation.

Turning on an incandescent bulb is the connection of current to a filament
that is thereby heated to white hot and kept at that temperature by the
continuous flow of current through it.

So now you can re-explain what you meant by "length of wire and number
of wires" or, if you prefer, make a halakhic analysis of what has been
done when turning on the two types of lamps.

And now to sleep and perchance to dream.

all best, 
David

> As I mentioned in a previous posting - there are two basic sources
> that obligate us. 1) a command from the Torah i.e., from G-d. 2)
> Commonsense.

Just an idea - could that be the hesber of the machlokes in Yevamos 20
as to whether shniyos m'divrei sofrim are called an issur mitzva or an
issur kedusha? i.e. the issue is whether there is a specific *mitzva*
l'shmoa divrei chachamim, or it is stam a commonsense idea and shniyos
is categorized b'lashom issur kedusha.

-Good Shabbos
-Chaim B.

> Rav Elchonon Wasserman (Divrei Sofrim) asks
> where does authority come from if the verse is only an asmachta. He answers
> that it comes from the realization that the chachomim best know what G-d
> wants. It is thus a rational or commonsense act to listen to them because of
> their superior knowledge and thus there is no need for a specific command.
> However, Rav Gustman apparently did not see this as a  solution since he did
> not propose it as the solution to the problem and left it with tzorech iyun.

Had the opportunity to ask Rav Sternbuch about Rav Gustman's question. He
opted for the explanation of Rav Elchonon Wasserman and said that the case
of a child is different. I asked why didn't  Rav Gustman answer that way.
Rabbi Mordechai Kornfield who was standing there said that he had heard a
number of times from Rav Gustman that the question was not how a non Jew can
be obligated to keep rabbinic mitzvos but rather according to the Lechem
Mishna why should there be a rabbinic chiyuv misa. He noted that  the Lechem
Mishna does not say they are obligated derabbon but they are chayiv misa
derabbon. When I noted  that contradicted Rav Gustman's words in his sefer.
He replied that he had a similar discussion with Rav Gustman concerning the
position of Rav Shimon Shkop. Rav Gustman replied that it didn't matter what
the sefer said - he himself had heard from Rav Shimon Shkop at least 20
times the statement he was telling over.

As far as the issue of chinuch he noted a position similar to Reb Moshe that
a child is in essence obligated from the Torah but there is an onas that
interferes with this Torah obligation.

In sum - the original question is not a question and apparently no one holds
that there is an obligation to keep rabbinic mitzvos in the absence of
either a Torah mitzva or a clear sevorah which also constitutes a Torah
obligation. Why Rav Gustman's sefer asks the question is itself the
question.

Daniel Eidensohn

At 02:26 AM 1/28/01 +0200, D. and E-H. Bannett wrote:
>A few years ago the Plaza ...                               the elevator
>company gave a high price for meeting R' Halperin's requirements and
>told the hotel that, for a lower price. they could offer elevators with
>other approvals. The Institute could longer approves the Plaza.

Probably tzarich lomar "no" instead of "could" in that last sentence.

>Sha'arei Tzedek is still approved by the Institute. Maybe it's lucky
>that they have no money for an update. The elevators have been running
>for some 25 years.

So, bottom line, there is only one set of elevators in the world right now 
that is approved by the Machon?

Questions (perhaps you won't want to answer these): Who are the other 
certifying organizations, who paskens for them, and where do chilukei 
dei'os lie?

>> RSZA holds that it is the length of the wire, not the number of wires,
>> that determine which is the lesser prohibition. It is for that reason
>> that he holds it is better to light fluorescent lights than incandescent
>> ones b'eis ha'tzorech.

>Sorry I don't understand your comment. Let me add a few details to what

(deleted)

How long are those filaments in the fluorescent vs. the length of the 
filament in the incandescent?

KT,
YGB
ygb@aishdas.org      http://www.aishdas.org/rygb

*********************


[ Distributed to the Avodah mailing list, digested version.                   ]
[ To post: mail to avodah@aishdas.org                                         ]
[ For back issues: mail "get avodah-digest vXX.nYYY" to majordomo@aishdas.org ]
[ or, the archive can be found at http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/              ]
[ For general requests: mail the word "help" to majordomo@aishdas.org         ]