Avodah Mailing List

Volume 06 : Number 058

Wednesday, December 6 2000

• Mussar and Chassidus
• Re: Living in Gaza
• RE: Chumrot and kullot- an excellent discussion from Darchei Noam
• Nishmat
• Re: Intent to write a Get
• Re: new sefer on RSZA
• new book on the Maharal (url)
• re: zemer lechanuka
• Parallels between Ya'akov/Eisav and Purim
• RE: Gaza in Israel?
• Gaza in Israel?
• Re: Gaza in Israel?
• Re: Gaza in Israel?
• Re: Intent to write a Get

On Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 07:50:08PM -0500, RSB <Zeliglaw@aol.com> wrote:
:       Perhaps mussar is a poor cousin to pure limud haTorah because we take 
: neither it nor chassidus, its intellectual cousin very seriously and we 
: ignore halacha in the bein adam lchaveiro area more than we admit...

I wouldn't have described Chassidus as Mussar's intellectual cousin,
unless you mean that they are cousins on an intellectual plain. Both
share the notion of creating hanhagos beyond the shuras hadin. Both
also define their goal in experiential, not textual, terms. But the
goal itself is very different. Mussar aims for temimus both in how one
is motivated and in personal interation; while C is more about finding
ways both in and beyond halachah to be nidvak to the Ribbono shel Olam.

You are right, though, Choshein Mishpat is a "poor cousin" as
well.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org            you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org       You light a candle.
(973) 916-0287                  - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l

On Thu, Nov 30, 2000 at 11:16:20AM -0500, Gil.Student@citicorp.com wrote:
:> 2. Yishuv EY, if a chiyuv today, can be done in Sanhedria or Har Nof.

: R. Hershel Schachter understands the Ramban in the back of Sefer HaMitzvos 
: (Mitzvos Aseh Sheshichechan HaRav, IIRC #7) as saying that there is a mitzvas 
: aseh of not leaving any part of EY unsettled.

Which is why I threw in "underutilized". Perhaps one should start another
yishuv in the Negev (above any sefeikos about borders) or just a shade
north of the TA - Y'lem highway, or between Chaifa and the Kineret, or...

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org            you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org       You light a candle.
(973) 916-0287                  - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l

From: Zeliglaw@aol.com
> "Chumrot and Kulot and Hachnasat Orchim -- Darche Noam Institutions"
> <http://www.darchenoam.org/articles/web/responsa/chumra_bz.htm> an
> excellent series on a much discussed topic on our list

I agree with the article with the possible exception of one implication of
the conclusion.  The article concludes:
: What is proper guidance for a guest who holds to a stringency that his
: host does not? He should (based on the Or Zarua 603) ask his host
: (tactfully!)....  If he cannot ask, it is legitimate to assume that he will
: not be fed what he believes is prohibited even though his host does not.

This might be taken to imply that the guest should (tactfully) stand his
ground when it comes to stringency.  In contrast, Eli Turkel wrote that
"Ve-alehu lo Yebol" states in the name of RSZA:
> NonIsraeli students who are invited out for shabbat can eat in anyone's
> house from any hechsher kashrut. One can be machmir for himself but
> not for others.

> Similarly when one is invited out or to a wedding. He testifies that he
> saw R. Sonnenfeld eat at weddings from Sephardim when the shechitah
> was sephardi shechita. He said that he eats chicken at weddings from
> hechsherim that he would not bring them home. They are not treifah!!

Kol tuv,
Moshe

From: Isaac A Zlochower <zlochoia@bellatlantic.net>
> Or why should a husband not sacrifice
> some of his study time and take care of the kids while his wife studies?

	Up to this point I agreed with much of what you said. However,
there is the little issue, that no matter how desirable a woman's learning
is in context of today's society, yada yada, she is still einah metzuvah.
Her husband is metzuvah and that is why he should not sacrifice his
learning time for her.

	If you are asking whether he should close the Gemara when she
needs help with the kids, I think most of us here understand that
that is required. But he should close the Gemara so she can open
hers? Yishtaka hadavar.

Gershon

Micha Berger:
> Russell Steinthal <rms39@columbia.edu> asked the following to scjm...
> It's an interesting question. Can a kofer's get ever be lishmah?

The first question is not "Can ...ever be lishmah" but rather -- Does
a Get need to be with Kavanah (intent).

The answer is no.

Basically, the procedure for granting a Get involves a series of legal
steps:

a) The Beit Din asks the person if he ever swore not to give a Get
(this is the essence of the first question, not the full content).
Whether he says "no" -- which means he didn't or if he says "yes" --
the Beit Din disolve the Neder.

b) The Beit Din asks him to appoint to Shlichim as Eidim (witnesses).
To nominate witnesses to the process does not need intent.

c) The husband declares that he is giving a Get to the woman.  No
intent needed.  He just hands her the divorce "paper".

There are other steps taken by others (the Sofer Gittin who writes the
divorce "paper", the woman who receives it), but those are separate
issues.  No where in the process does the man have to state any belief
in the Torah, jewish law, the jewish court system or anything else of
a religious nature.

Shoshana L. Boublil (for Rav Tsuriel Boublil, adv.)

> Earlier this week I purchased the 2 volume set "Ve-alehu lo Yebol"
> with the customs and psakim of R. Shlomo Zalman Auerbach. The total
> cost was 100 shekels ($25) from Or Hatzafon at 15 Meah Shearim St.

This sefer is fascinating. BTW, inn halichos Shlomo, it is mentioned that 
during the Six Day War, RSZA was giving shiur when someone came in and told 
him about the great victories. RSZA stopped the shiur, instructed the shiur 
to say Mizmor LTodah , have a lchaom and mezonot and then say Hallel ha 
Gadol. An amazing maaseh shayah from a Gadol .
                                Steven Brizel
                                 Zeliglaw@aol.com

People of the Book <http://www.jewishworldreview.com/people/book.html>
A new book on the Maharal has anybody read it yet ?
                                   Steve Brizel
                                    Zeliglaw@aol.com

RAP writes:

>A zmirot that I have includes something called : zemer leshabbat channuka 
>shel haibn ezra. It starts : Hay hay bet kor timkor tachkor lichvod
>shabbat channuka. I have been trying for years to understand the zemer.
>If anyone knows of a peirush or knows the zemer and has ideas of it's meaning'
>please respond. 
...
>[I heard someone comment (at RYGB's daf-yomi shiur on Sunday) that Yekkes
>sing it. Perhaps one of you know more?  -mi]

Haim Leshem in his *Shabbat u-mo`adei Yisrael* (Tel Aviv, 1965), vol. 1
pp. 288-290 has a piece on this zemer. It is true, he says, that the
acrostic of the zemer [which begins BTW "ikhlu mashmanim ve-solet
revukhah"; the "hai hai bet kur" is the refrain] spells Avraham but there
is no indication that Ibn Ezra was its author. In fact, neither the
definitive editions of Ibn Ezra's Shire Kodesh [which includes even
doubtful piyyutim of IE] nor Shire .Hol include the zemer. Leshem is
further surprised how such an obviously secular piyyut as this was ever
included in a siddur tefilot -- among shire kodesh of medieval Germany. Ad
kedai kakh that Sephardim even parodied it into a Purim song: "Ikhlu
mashmanim u-shetu mamtakim...li-se`udat Purim." Since perhaps the earliest
reference to the zemer from shut"im comes from R. Yisrael Bruna (d. 1488)
[Shu"T no. 137], the theory is that it was probably written sometime in
the 14th century. He and others were adamant that the song NOT be sung at
all. R. Aaron Worms  (d. 1836) in *Meore Or: helek be'er sheva* p. 124b
even wrote a zemer to supplant the Ikhlu mashmanim one and he introduces
it this way:
"Zemer hai hai ha-nidfas be-emek ha-bakhah ve-zot .halifato u-temurato
asher ba-emek ha-berakhah." The beginning of his zemer is: "Agilah
ve-esme.hah bi-yeshu`ah u-reva.hah / hai hai beit Torah tishkedah
ve-tadurah."

Ad kan divrei Leshem. I would just note that since Leshem's (and the
other's he quotes) argument against the song is because of the obvious
hedonism/gashmiyut the anonymous author seems to laud, one may wish to
consult M. Rafeld's comments re mishteh ve-sim.hah on Hanukah in vol. 5 of
D. Sperber's *Minhagei Yisrael.*

Bi-tefilah la-Me'ir le-olam kulo she-yizkeh kol beit Yisrael la-Yehudim
haitah orah ve-sim.hah ve-sason vi-yekar,

Yisrael Dubitsky

The Midrash (Yalkut Esther 4) says that as a result of Ya'akov causing
Eisav to cry 'tz'aka gedolah u'mara', we find that Mordechai cries
'z'akak gedolah u'mara' as well. The idea brought other parallels
to mind: the idea of Esther's concealed identity/Ya'akov's concealed
identity; Mordechai encouraging Esther to act/Rivka pushing Yitzchak to
act; Achashveirosh 'blind' to the evil ambition of Haman/Yitzchak blind
to Eisav's faults; the party at which Esther reveals herself/the food
prepared for Yitzchak; Ya'akov's reluctance to deceive Yitzchak/Esther's
reluctance to come before Achasveirosh without permission....

Something to think about.

-CB

From: "S. Goldstein" <goldstin@netvision.net.il>
> I would like to agree with R' Micha concerning Gaza. Even though there are
> points further South than Ashkelon that are considered E. Israel, many
> Poskim consider Ashkelon as marking the Western border.
> Therefore, further South and West of Ashkelon(ie Gaza Strip) is outside of 
> Israel.  This is learned from the first Mishna in Gittin.  See Tos. there.

Tos. Gitin 2a s.v. Ashkelon quotes RI (R. Isaac Dampierre) as saying that
even parts of Eretz Yisrael require saying befanai nichtav if they are not
part of "ikar yishuv Eretz Yisrael."  (As I noted previously, this makes
sense because the point of saying befanai nichtav has to do with the
knowledge of the populace, not the shem Eretz Yisrael.)

> Tshuvos Maharit says that the minhag of Yerushalayim in his time was to
> bring produce from Gaza and it was considered Hutz l'aretz.  

Terumos u'maasros are a different issue.  That requires a place where olei
bavel settled.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

The basic question is "Gaza in Israel" for what purpose?

If you are talking about Gittin -- then the source in Gittin is
relevant.

If you are talking about Kedushat Shvi'it -- then the question of
Kedushat Olei Bavel is relevant, and in any case the border is
distinct from Ashkelon, just as the other borders mentioned in Gittin
are not relevant to Kedushat Olei Bavel, but rather, as the Tosefot
says -- they are relevant to where jewish communities exist.

If you are talking about the borders per se, then the only source is
the Torah and the Promise to Avraham.  In this case the southern
border is Nahal Mitzraim, and the only question is where this is.  The
Machloket HaPoskim is whether it is the River Nile, in Egypt or what
is known as Wadi El Arish, which is South of the Gaza Strip.

The most important thing is to notice the context of questions and
answers and not mix responses on Kedushat HaAretz with responses on
Gevulot of Avraham.

I used Steinsalz not as a Poseik, but to understand the issue in the
G'mara as my husband was not home at the time, and my aramaic is weak.
So, please realize that when discussing a legal issue such as the
borders, it is important to realize all the factors of the discussion.

So, just b/c a place does not have Kedusha for purposes of Shvi'it --
that does not Mafki'a the place from being within the borders promised
by Hashem to Avraham.  The only question that remains is at what point
is the resettling of Eretz Yisrael in our times going to make the
place receive Kedusha Shlishit.

Shoshana L. Boublil

From: Feldman, Mark <MFeldman@CM-P.COM>
>Tos. Gitin 2a s.v. Ashkelon quotes RI (R. Isaac Dampierre) as saying that
>even parts of Eretz Yisrael require saying befanai nichtav if they are not
>part of "ikar yishuv Eretz Yisrael."  (As I noted previously, this makes
>sense because the point of saying befanai nichtav has to do with the
>knowledge of the populace, not the shem Eretz Yisrael.)

The kashya and Rabbeinu Tam hold that Ashkelon is the border for kdushas
Eretz Israel (olei bavel).  Even the R"I will have to pick a point as the
border of E. Israel.  I agree that it is not Ashkelon for him, but is Gaza
Strip Israel?  Not clear.

From: "S. Goldstein" <goldstin@netvision.net.il>
>> Tshuvos Maharit says that the minhag of Yerushalayim in his> time was to
>> bring produce from Gaza and it was considered Hutz l'aretz.

>Terumos u'maasros are a different issue.  That requires a place where olei
>bavel settled.

I assume you agree concerning shvi'is as well.  I also wrote that the Ritva,
not in his question but in his answer, extends E. Israel for chibuv of the
mitzva of yishuv.  I suggested that regular, kdushas Eretz Yisroel should be
preferred even according to this opinion.

Shlomo Goldstein

On Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 08:27:56AM +0300, Shoshana L. Boublil wrote:
: The basic question is "Gaza in Israel" for what purpose?

We are talking about the mitzvah of yishuv E"Y. Which I think is what
you were addressing in:
: If you are talking about the borders per se, then the only source is
: the Torah and the Promise to Avraham.

What about Devarim?

In either case, I was suggesting that it wasn't black-and-white. Perhaps
even within the gevul, some areas should get preference over others. Remember
the gemara's comment about Moshe Rabbeinu's desire to enter E"Y -- part of
the mitzvah of yishuv E"Y is the ability to do mitzvos hateluyos ba'aretz.
Which would imply a greater kiyum of yishuv when in lands for which more
hilchos E"Y apply.

Therefore, while there are lands that do have dinim of shevi'is, shouldn't
those lands come first?

But focussing on this issue was my idea. Simcha's original comment was about
imposing such chumros on one's children. On the subject of chumros, R'
Eli Turkel quoted R' Nachum Stephansky's "Ve-alehu lo Yebol". One of the
points he quotes:

: 2. When asked about moving to the Moslem quarter of the old city when
: the parents object that it is dangerous. RSZA suggested not to move
: there because of the parents feelings and others can do it. When asked
: but the others also have parents he answered someone lime me can move
: who no longer has parents that will worry.

: Note: neither the questioner nor RSZA were bothered about moving into
: a dangerous neighborhood !!

R' Simcha Klagsbrun's question is only addressed if we knew that the sho'el
had children.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org            you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org       You light a candle.
(973) 916-0287                  - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l

On 6 Dec 2000, at 8:18, Shoshana L. Boublil wrote:
> a) The Beit Din asks the person if he ever swore not to give a Get
> (this is the essence of the first question, not the full content).
> Whether he says "no" -- which means he didn't or if he says "yes" --
> the Beit Din disolve the Neder.

How can someone ask to have a neder dissolved if he doesn't believe in
the entire Torah of Nedarim? Do we say zochin with respect to hatara
of nedarim?

-- Carl
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

********************


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