Avodah Mailing List
Volume 06 : Number 015
Tuesday, October 17 2000
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 12:17:21 +0200
From: "Carl and Adina Sherer" <sherer@actcom.co.il>
Subject: Re: forgiveness
On 13 Oct 00, at 12:24, Rich, Joel wrote:
>> During Yom Kippur, we read that it is not permitted to give forgiveness to
>> a person who acts wrongly, with the expectation that you will forgive
>> them. ...
> Is this statement correct, that one is not permitted to give forgiveness or
> is it not required (nafka mina - in tfilat zaka can one leave out the
> passage where we withhold forgiveness from one who said I'll sin and he'll
> forgive)
I think you're correct - it's not required. But to say that it's not
permitted to forgive someone who said echta v'hoo yimchol li is
probably a bit too strong. See the Mishna Brura in 606:11.
-- Carl
Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.
Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il
Gmar Chasima Tova (or Gmar Chatima Tova,
depending on your preference).
May you and yours be sealed in
the books of life, health and happiness.
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Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 18:47:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Gil Student <gil_student@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Malachim and Bechirah
As promised, the following is a summary of R. Chaim Friedlander's Sifsei
Chaim - Pirkei Emunah Uvechirah vol. II pp. 142-157
The gemara in Shabbos (88b) explicitly says that malachim don't have a yetzer
hara as does the Midrash Rabbah (Bereishis 45:11). Ramchal explains this
(in his introduction to Derech Etz Hachaim) that knowledge of the truth
distances the yetzer hara which is why malachim do not have a yetzer hara.
However, in Chagiga (15a) we that the angel Metatron fooled Acher into
thinking that there were two reshuyoc (ch"v) and was therefore punished.
Similarly, the Yalkut Shimoni (Bereishis 84) says that the malachim were
punished for revealing Hashem's secret to Lot by telling him that they were
going to destroy Sedom and Amorah. See also Rabbeinu Bachya to Bereishis 3:6.
Rabbeinu Chananel (Chagiga ad. loc.) explains that the malachim's sin is not
really a sin but is part of their mission. They are supposed to "sin" and be
punished in order to teach us that sinning leads to punishment. However, they
were actually following their mission. It was Metatron's job to fool Acher and
his "punishment" was really just a lesson to us about the results of sinning.
The Sefer Chasidim (530) and the Sodei Razia (brought in Yalkut Reuveni,
Bereishis p. 36), however, explain the sins of malachim differently. They say
that while malachim cannot sin due to a yetzer hara, they can make the wrong
decision based on a lack of facts. Since malachim have never experienced
the power of the yetzer hara, they sometimes have placed a stumbling block
in front of people in order that these people should overcome it and be
rewarded. However, the malachim do not realize the extent of the stumbling
block because they do not have a yetzer hara. Or in the case of Lot, they
mistakenly thought that Lot's tefillos could reverse the decree.
Ramchal (Da'as Tevunos vol. II in Ginzei Ramchal pp. 40-42) uses this
idea to explain the idea of a Satra Achra who rebelled against Hashem.
Hashem created him to give people equal opportunity to do good or bad.
However, as people sinned the Satra Achra's power of bad in the world grew.
Due to his lack of knowledge, he then mistakenly thought that he was (ch"v)
as powerful as Hashem. However, that is just his misconception. He still
only works with Hashem's permissions; he just does not know that.
The question remains, why doesn't Hashem give malachim full knowledge so
they would not make these mistakes? R. Chaim Friedlander suggests that this
can be explained through Rabbeinu Chananel's approach. Hashem intentionally
allows malachim to make mistakes and be punished for them to teach us that
even sins done with good intentions will be punished. From the Satra Achra
we can learn that even those who rebel against Hashem and then see themselves
succeeding in life are only fooling themselves and will eventually be punished.
Gil Student
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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 09:03:23 -0400
From: Richard Wolpoe <PMSRXW@ibi.com>
Subject: Re: Yom Kippur Notes
On Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 11:07:59AM +1000, SBA wrote:
>: 1) Parshas Aroyos at Mincha. There are a number of reasons given why
>: we lein Parshas Aroyos at Mincha...
On Fri, 13 Oct 2000 09:09:22 -0400 Micha Berger said:
>Why not pashut p'shat: because it's a continuation of what we had just
>leined in the morning. Much like what we do on Shabbos.
This probably explains why we read the aroyos in Acharei Mos
isntead of those in Kedoshim, but these leaves {begs?} the question:
"why skip the 2 aliyos in between?"
Shalom and Regards,
Rich Wolpoe
pmsrxw@ibivm.ibi.com
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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 04:19:26 +1000
From: SBA <sba@blaze.net.au>
Subject: seforim niftachim (repeat)
From: Gershon Dubin
>> We ask, in Avinu Malkenu, to be written in many different
>> seforim. What is the source of all these or is it just an idiomatic
>> expression?
From: SBA
> The only place I have seen this mentioned (till now) is the Siddur Otzar
> Hat'filos in the peirsuh 'Achris Lesholom" via a Zohar - Ayin Shom,
> and the Peirush Etz Yosef (even more intriguing) as he explains Sefer
> Chaim is Bereishis, S. Geulah Veyshuah is Shmos, Parnoso V'Chalkolo is ...
RGD's question has been bothering me ever since he posted it. (And to add
to it - what about "Besefer Chaim Brocho V'Sholom uParnoso Tova etc etc -
again, what sefer is this?)
Besides the Siddur OH, I haven't found anything written on this. I have
meanwhile spoken to half a dozen Rabbonim, Talmidei Chachomim locally
and overseas - and not only couldn't they come up with a decent answer,
but were surprised at themselves that they never questioned the nusach
hatefilah.
So why am I repeating the post? I though that as we have a few hundred
chaverim (I am counting you humble, modest and silent lurkers out there
as well) - from MO to RW (-am I allowed to mention those Roshei Teivos
yet?), Chassidim and Litvaks, Ashkenazim and Sfardim, why not ask this
question from your local Rav, Rosh Yeshiva or local 'Yadan' - and share
their response with us. There MUST be a simple answer!
Yasher Kochachem and a Gutten Kvittel.
SHLOMO B ABELES
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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 16:41:15 -0400
From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
Subject: Subject: 15 Av
From: Kenneth G Miller <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
> One possible answer is that every night was cloudy, and they
> genuinely could not see the moon. Unlikely as that might be for a summer
Maybe that's why it took so long to ask the question! There were
ananei kavod in all six directions; maybe they couldn't see the moon. I
actually saw this discussed once, but who knows where!
Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com
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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 09:10:54 -0400
From: Richard Wolpoe <PMSRXW@ibi.com>
Subject: Re: Yom Kippur Notes
In Avodah V6 #13, MBerger replied:
>> Note that Sh'mini Atzeres comes after 49 days of teshuvah (starting
>> R' Chodesh Elul). It invites comparison to the other Atzeres.
On Fri, 13 Oct 2000 14:14:57 -0400 said:
>Tangentially, NB what occurs 50 days _before_ Rosh Chodesh Ellul --
>places tisha b'Av and its aftermath in a different light, no?
I posted soemthing about the various 49/50 day periods a few years ago
and gave talks on this in West Orange and Teaneck. FWIW the period of
Ledovid Hashem is 49/50 says (b'erech) note that the Germans that DO
say leDovid end w/ Hoshana Rabbo BEH I will re-post an expanded 49/50
period article...
Shalom and Regards,
Rich Wolpoe
pmsrxw@ibivm.ibi.com
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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 09:30:24 -0400
From: Richard Wolpoe <PMSRXW@ibi.com>
Subject: Machshava on Sukkos
[best if viewed in a fixed-width font -mi]
Every one of the Regalim {pilgrimage festivals} has {at least} a dual
nature.
The Torah often emphasizes the agricultural aspect and the liturgy
emphasizes the historical aspect:
AGRICULTURAL HISTORICAL (LITURGICAL)
Pesach: Omer (barley) Cheiruseinu {Exodus from Egypt}
Shavuos: Bikkurim (Wheat) Matan Toraseinu {Giving of the Torah}
Sukkos: ha'Asif (harvest) Simchaseinu {rejoicing}
The question is what is the Historical event associated with Rejoicing
(Hint: Refer to the Haftarah of both the 2nd day of Sukkos
and of Shmini Atzeret in the Golah {Diaspora})
Shalom and Regards,
Rich Wolpoe
pmsrxw@ibivm.ibi.com
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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 15:26:45 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer" <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
Subject: Re: Fw: tinok shenishba (fwd)
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
> Which still means that RAS considers a TsN to be a non-rasha -- as long as
> he is capable of doing the mitzvah, we count him toward it. As opposed to
> a non-TsN who is mechaleil Shabbos bifarhesia but still davens regularly.
No! Why can you not daven with resho'im?! "Kol ta'anis she'ein bo
me'posh'ei Yisroel eino ta'anis!"
> Because he associates din, at least din Shamayim, with the sheim
> "Yisrael". The same criterion used to define eidah-eidah for minyan is
> used to define whether or not the person is guaranteed a cheilek li'olam
> haba.
> I'm sorry if that doesn't add much, but I thought my original paragraph
> was clear. I'm not sure what I left to ask "why" over. Please be more
> verbose in your question.
I have no clue what you are saying!
Of course resho'im get to OhB, how is that relevant?
KT,
YGB
Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/rygb
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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 10:18:39 -0400
From: Richard Wolpoe <PMSRXW@ibi.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: tinok shenishba (fwd)
On Mon, 16 Oct 2000 10:10:28 -0400 Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer said:
>No! Why can you not daven with resho'im?! "Kol ta'anis she'ein bo
>me'posh'ei Yisroel eino ta'anis!"
I saw an article a few years ago, I'm not sure who wrote it but I
vaguely recall R Shlomoh Riskin - any one who knows for sure please set
this straight.
Q: Why is it when it comes to Karaban Pesach the Torah is so restrictive
re: Oreil, Meshumad etc. and by Kol Nidre we state anu matirim lehispallel
im ha'avaryanim?
Answer: When it comes to celebrating good things, only those who are
observant are invited; howeever when it comes to shouldering the burden
of the tzibur, all are invited.
Shalom and Regards,
Rich Wolpoe
pmsrxw@ibivm.ibi.com
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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 10:42:21 -0400
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Subject: Re: Fw: tinok shenishba (fwd)
On Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 03:26:45PM -0500, Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer wrote:
:> Which still means that RAS considers a TsN to be a non-rasha -- as long as
:> he is capable of doing the mitzvah, we count him toward it. As opposed to
:> a non-TsN who is mechaleil Shabbos bifarhesia but still davens regularly.
: No! Why can you not daven with resho'im?! "Kol ta'anis she'ein bo
: me'posh'ei Yisroel eino ta'anis!"
Iz nisht azoi pashut. Before Kil Nidrei we have to explicitly grant
reshus to daven with avaryanim.
But I realized it's not so simple for a second reason.
Even those who mattir counting a TsN as part of a minyan do not permit
stam yeinam. They seem to be creating a category (despite the previous
conversation) -- one in which a person is a member of the "eidah" WRT
minyan, but not part of the klal when it comes to yayin.
:> Because he associates din, at least din Shamayim, with the sheim
:> "Yisrael". The same criterion used to define eidah-eidah for minyan is
:> used to define whether or not the person is guaranteed a cheilek li'olam
:> haba.
:> I'm sorry if that doesn't add much, but I thought my original paragraph
:> was clear. I'm not sure what I left to ask "why" over. Please be more
:> verbose in your question.
: Of course resho'im get to OhB, how is that relevant?
Far from "of course", that's not what the Rambam says. The Rambam says
"kol Yisrael" excludes resha'im -- that a rasha isn't "Yisrael" and
therefore has *no* guarantee of a "cheilek li'olam haba".
What I was saying is that this connects the sheim "Yisrael" with din. IOW,
having the status of "rasha" (or some flavor thereof) and therfore not
having that of "Yisrael" very directly connects to that person's din
k'lapei Sh'maya.
Apparantly the Rambam can not divide the two.
Saying that a TsN is judged leniently bibeis din shel ma'alah means that
he does not have the sheim "rasha".
-mi
--
Micha Berger When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org You light a candle.
(973) 916-0287 - R' Yekusiel Halbserstam of Klausenberg zt"l
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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 10:58:52 -0400
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Subject: Re: "standing on the shoulders of giants"
On Thu, Oct 12, 2000 at 02:52:44PM +0200, Carl M. Sherer wrote:
:> We're adding
:> little to their foundation, but we're still adding.
: Yes, but.... Aren't we also adding to their aveiros?
As long as we average in the positive, the cumulative total will also a
positive. And since "she'eiris Yisrael lo ya'asu avla", we know that there
will always be a net s'char.
On Thu, Oct 12, 2000 at 09:51:20AM -0400, Richard Wolpoe wrote:
: My understanding of mimetics is just a bit different than Micha's.
: IMHO the WHAT's survive but the WHY's are lost.
...
: And therefore niskatnu is a function of us getting less and less original
: transmission and relying upon more and more sevara to fill in the gaps.
That's not mimetics, though. Mimetics is the preservation of "hows"
but only if by the culture, as opposed to using the vehicle of texts.
You have a valid model (assuming historical evidence backs it up),
but it's not R' Dr Haym Soloveitchik's.
A second question: which "why" are we talking about? The halachic
procedure and kelalim that justify the p'sak? Or the ta'am, hislahavus
and sense of what HKBH would want -- the aggados of the observant
life?
I would like to suggest a third, also related model -- that of Moshe
Koppel (as per his book "MetaHalacha", published by Aaronson; I refer
people to the Avodah archives for longer summaries). Niskatnu hadoros
meant that we lost a bit of the innate sense of what halachah would
require, and therefore need to formalize things into rules.
: The Midrash re: teh lost halachos after the dath of Moshe rabbeinu
: helps to illustrate that further. And it is not because the generaton
: of Yehoshua were less tzaddikim than the dor deiah, but it is arguable
: that they knew less than dor deiah! (after all who could know more than
: dor deiah? <smile>).
I'm not sure why you're arguing this point. We have a clear statement
from Abayei that the reduction is in the ability to live al kiddush
Hashem, and that their knowledge far surpassed that of earlier
generations.
Yes, the generation of Yehoshu'ah were less tzaddikim than those who were
able to reach a greater level of nevu'ah than Yechezkeil.
-mi
--
Micha Berger When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org You light a candle.
(973) 916-0287 - R' Yekusiel Halbserstam of Klausenberg zt"l
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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 11:06:51 -0400
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Subject: Re: 15 Av
On Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 12:22:15PM -0400, Kenneth G Miller wrote:
: To think that there had been a miscalculation is absurd, because even if
: there WAS a miscalculation, we are taught that HaShem follows the
: declaration of Beis Din....
: Another possibility is that the story was never meant to be taken as
: literally as I've done. If so, then fine; but can anyone suggest the
: nimshol of this allegory?
I think your question WRT following beis din still holds.
Chazal spends much effort justifying the halachic suggestions in medrashim.
I would argue that even those we take to be mishalim need to be halachically
sound. Or to put it another way, the medrash wouldn't have coined a mashal
that is kineged halachah.
Since we pasken lehalachah that we don't worry about the "real" Yom haDin
WRT Yom Kippur, nor are chosheid about an error WRT Pesach, the medrash is
problematic on this point whether or not the story is historical.
-mi
--
Micha Berger When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org You light a candle.
(973) 916-0287 - R' Yekusiel Halbserstam of Klausenberg zt"l
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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 10:28:13 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer" <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
Subject: How does a Brisker learn Toch k'dei Dibbur k'Dibbur Dami?
...In light of the Ran on Nedarim 87a, who links TkDkDD to da'as, which is
very non-Brisker (not measurable) does RYBS or another Brisker offer
another mahalach?
KT,
YGB
Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/rygb
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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 11:31:17 EDT
From: Joelirich@aol.com
Subject: Re: tu baav
> As I understand the story (I'm not sure if it is a gemara or medrash or
> whatever), when we were in the midbar, each year on Tisha B'av, everyone
> would go to sleep in their graves...
It's Taanit 30b-Rashi seems to say that they just thought they were mistaken
in their count, The yesh mfarshim in tosfot says that they didn't just die on
tisha baav(although many did) and it was only when NO ONE died(on the 15th of
av) that they realized the gzera had been lifted. I assumed that the Y"m
were bothered by your question.
Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich
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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 11:16:38 -0400
From: Richard Wolpoe <PMSRXW@ibi.com>
Subject: Re: "standing on the shoulders of giants"
On Mon, 16 Oct 2000 11:09:16 -0400 Micha Berger said:
>I'm not sure why you're arguing this point. We have a clear statement
>from Abayei that the reduction is in the ability to live al kiddush
>Hashem, and that their knowledge far surpassed that of earlier
>generations.
There is an earlier statement if they were angels we are men..etc.
And Professor Agus attributes this dropping off to the calamaties and
persecutions, not to an intrinsic less worthiness... IOW, Torah was
forgotten during tough times...
>Yes, the generation of Yehoshu'ah were less tzaddikim than those who were
>able to reach a greater level of nevu'ah than Yechezkeil.
So how do you explain the fact that Dor Hamidbar ein lohem chelek
l'olam habo. Are you equating levels of nevius with level of tzidkus?
The Rambam seems to say that we can acheive the same schar as Moshe
rabbineu but not the same level of nvius. please explain.
>
>-mi
Shalom and Regards,
Rich Wolpoe
pmsrxw@ibivm.ibi.com
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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 10:26:41 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer" <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
Subject: Re: Fw: tinok shenishba (fwd)
On Mon, 16 Oct 2000, Micha Berger wrote:
> Iz nisht azoi pashut. Before Kil Nidrei we have to explicitly grant
> reshus to daven with avaryanim.
Poetic license. Meant to instill eimas ha'din.
> Even those who mattir counting a TsN as part of a minyan do not permit
> stam yeinam. They seem to be creating a category (despite the previous
> conversation) -- one in which a person is a member of the "eidah" WRT
> minyan, but not part of the klal when it comes to yayin.
OK, but heavy on the momenclature. Not so sure I accept the terminology
:-) .
> Far from "of course", that's not what the Rambam says. The Rambam says
> "kol Yisrael" excludes resha'im -- that a rasha isn't "Yisrael" and
> therefore has *no* guarantee of a "cheilek li'olam haba".
Where is the Rambam?
Anyway, I am a "mekkubal" :-) , and we "dorshei reshumos" hold that even
those enumerated in the mishna and Chelek get into OhB.
> Saying that a TsN is judged leniently bibeis din shel ma'alah means that
> he does not have the sheim "rasha".
I do not understand why you assume there is only one sheim "rasha" (latent
Brisker tendencies?).
KT,
YGB
Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/rygb
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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 15:27:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Daniel A HaLevi Yolkut <yolkut@ymail.yu.edu>
Subject: Chol ha-Moed
Does anyone know of marei mekomos on word processing during chol ha-Mo'ed?
Mo'adim le-Simcha,
Daniel
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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 16:51:17 -0400
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Subject: Re: Chol ha-Moed
On Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 03:27:15PM -0400, Daniel A HaLevi Yolkut wrote:
: Does anyone know of marei mekomos on word processing during chol ha-Mo'ed?
I do, but I can't type up the reply. <grin>
According to the shitah of R' Yisrael Avraham Abba Krieger (my
great-grandfather) that I have quoted in the past, the issur against
writing on chol hamo'ed is tied to tefillin. IOW, those who say one
shouldn't wear tefillin are the same who say one may not write on chol
hamo'ed.
This would imply, l'fi aniyas da'ati, that RYAAK would not consider
typing, which would not be kasher for tefillin, to be any different than
any other melachah -- and would be muttar in cases of hefsed merubah or
oneg.
-mi
--
Micha Berger When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org You light a candle.
(973) 916-0287 - R' Yekusiel Halbserstam of Klausenberg zt"l
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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:35:17 -0400
From: "Wolpoe, Richard" <richard_wolpoe@ibi.com>
Subject: Sukkah Sensitivity
One of the laws of the Sukkah roof {aka SCHACH} tells us if the shade is
less than 50% it is invalid. And on the other hand, any thatched SCHACH
that is so thick that rain cannot permeate is also not valid.
So the cover must be more shade than Sun yet not so shady that neither rain
nor the Starlight can penetrate.
This can be considered a metaphor for how a Jew should deal with the outside
world.
A protection or barrier of less than 50% is invalid, it is too prone to
assimilation. It is by definition more outside than inside, it is too
permeable to be considered valid protection.
However, any barrier that does not allow rain drops or Starlight, that is so
thick-skinned as to be totally insensitive to the outside world, is also no
good. IOW, avoiding assimilation does not entitle us to erect barriers that
completely eliminates sensitivity to the outside world at large.
Moadim Lesimcha
Regards
Rich Wolpoe
Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com
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