Avodah Mailing List

Volume 05 : Number 132

Thursday, September 28 2000

• Re: RYBS & Brisker Chumras
• Re: RYBS & Brisker Chumras
• Re: Birchos HaTorah (was "Re: Besuros Tovos")
• Re: Birchos HaTorah (was Re: Besuros Tovos)
• re:correcting the baal kriah
• Re: RYBS & Brisker Chumras
• Re: RYBS & Brisker Chumras
• Re: re:correcting the baal kriah
• Re: RYBS & Brisker Chumras
• Re: Avodah V5 #131
• Re: Modern Orthodoxy
• Re: Avodah V5 #131
• Re: Avodah V5 #131-pruzbul
• More from Rav Yaakov
• Re: The lines are more blurred
• Re: Avodah V5 #131
• "Shaarei Tshuvah" 5
• Tefillah and Normative Beliefs
• Re: Avodah V5 #131

On Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 02:27:54PM -0400, Gil.Student@citicorp.com wrote:
: I think what our friend RSB Abeles was trying to say is that the Mesilas 
: Yesharim lists two kinds of chumros.  One is part of yirah .... The other
: is part of perishus, what Ramchal calls perishus bedinim.

Both of those are "push" motivations -- chumros one accepts so as to
avoid cheit or hirhurim of cheit, etc...

What about "pull", a chumrah I accept because I am moved by the motivation
behind the p'sak? Not pulled away from something, but because of the
beauty or power to motivate of the act required by the chumrah itself.
Ahavah, in contrast to yir'ah.

A personal example is my wearing murex trunculus dyed strings qua
safeik d'Oraisa of techeiles. One motivation is that my father does,
as per R' Herschel Schachter. The stronger one, however, is RSRH's
poetic description of the meaning of the blue, how lishitas haRambam it
interacts with the meaning of it being the 8th string, and that of the
white windings (the first and last, again l'fi haRambam).

I brought a few examples of chumros common amongst talmidim of RYBS. These
too are generally mei'ahavah, not miyi'rah or perishus. RYBS could draw
such a clear and beautiful explanation for the ta'am behind his p'sak
that the listener is naturally drawn TO it.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org            you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org       You light a candle.
(973) 916-0287                  - R' Yekusiel Halbserstam of Klausenberg zt"l

On Tue, 26 Sep 2000 14:45:39 -0400 Micha Berger said:
>What about "pull", a chumrah I accept because I am moved by the motivation
>behind the p'sak? ...

I'm not sure if this follwing constitutes a valid distinction or
a mere quibble...

Isn't your case of techeiles really more of a Hiddur than a Chumrah.

Shanah Tova - Happy New Year
Rich Wolpoe
pmsrxw@ibivm.ibi.com

Moderator's two pence:

I do not consider this a quibble. IMHO somthing that needs more qualification
is the limits between chumrah, p'sak of a machmir, hiddur, minhag, and anything
else.

-mi

Carl Sherer wrote:
> There is no question that if I sleep a sheinas keva (which I do during the day
> on Shabbos) there is hesech ha'daas with respect to learning, even if I am 
> mechuyav in v'hagiso bo during that time. So why don't I make Birchos haTorah 
> again when I wake up?

I wrote:

> Sure you do. I don't have the exact cite, but it's in the Shulchan Aruch 
> and/or Mishnah Berurah. You also make it after sheinas arai at night.

Michael Poppers wrote:

> See OC 47:11ff.
     
Thank you.  See <http://www.torah.org/advanced/mishna-berura/S47.html>

Sorry, sheinas keva during the day is a machlokes haposkim.  Gra, Chayei Adam, 
Pri Chadash and others say one should say birchas hatorah while others disagree 
(MB s"k 25.

Gil Student

In message <200009260545.IAA25297@lmail.actcom.co.il>, Carl and Adina
Sherer <sherer@actcom.co.il> writes
>> In addition, as I have pointed out before (on mail jewish at one stage)
>> at least according to the Magen Avraham, (and others) the reason that a
>> bracha can be said in the morning and it paturs the learning done the
>> whole day is because a man is obligated to learn day and night (and
>> therefore there is no hesek hadaas) (see Orech Chaim siman 47 si'if
>> katan 6 (in the middle)) 

>I assume you meant Magen Avraham 6 and 7 there. 

Actually, I meant the Taz 6 in the middle (I don't know why, I had it in
my head it was the Magen Avraham who made the comment, so when I quickly
found the comment I wanted, i didn't check the top. However,I did wake
up this morning wondering why it was on the wrong side of the daf for
the Magen Avraham).  So please read Taz all the way through that rather
than Magen Avraham - although as you have noted, the Magen Avraham makes
a similar comment in 7.  The Bach also discusses this question (right
side of the daf, wrong sefer).

In fact, the Magen Avraham has the least emphatic position, as in si'if
katan 9 he appears to suggest that if somebody generally does not learn,
he would have to go back and resay the bracha (the Be'er Hetev there
contrasts this with the Taz who says that (at least a man) does not
repeat regardless)

>This led me to a different question - what about when one sleeps 
>during the day. There is no question that if I sleep a sheinas keva 
>(which I do during the day on Shabbos) there is hesech ha'daas 
>with respect to learning, even if I am mechuyav in v'hagiso bo 
>during that time. So why don't I make Birchos haTorah again when 
>I wake up?

This is precisely the issue discussed at si'if 11.  The Mechaber says it
is a hefsek, but some say it isn't, and that is the minhag. See the
Magan Avraham (this time!) 11 - clearly at least some people did resay
the brachos.  See also the Beis Yosef on this inyan, where he discusses
the fact that all the heavyweights say that you should resay the
brochos, but the minhag of the olam is not to (the Igur says that this
is what his father did, and it was correct, because when there is a
maklokos in brachos, you should not say them), and the Beis Yosef has
some difficulty in finding anybody who disagrees with saying the brochos
again, but ultimately derives it from a Rabbanu Tam who holds that you
should not say it even if you sleep at night, on the grounds that while
everybody disagrees with the Rabbanu Tam when it comes to night, that is
what they are relying on during the day.

>That would seem to suggest that women should say
>> the bracha each time she learns (according to your theory, something
>> which she uses in her everyday life), and not otherwise.  The nosei
>> kellim suggest that, inter alia, it has to do with her being chayav to
>> say korbanos.  But if she is indeed "learning" korbanos, doesn't that
>> prove the point (even if it is only to that one limited extent).

>That would be so except that we don't only say korbanos because 
>of learning, but also because of "neshalma parim sfaseinu,"

Yes.  But for that you do not need birchas hatorah! (ie if it was only
for that reason, I do not see how you can justify saying birchas hatorah
over them).  Doesn't this issue come up around saying tehillim prior to
davening?  My understanding was that you could say tehillim and slichos
(not to mention ma tovu) prior to birchas hatorah because they were not
considered learning.

> and certainly a woman is equally as likely as a man to be mechuyav in 
>many of the korbanos listed in Aizehu M'Komom.

Yes, but korbanos are not exactly part of our current daily life.  And
even if it were, how many Beis Ya'akovs would you expect to have the
mishnayos of Zvachim on their curriculum.  And while women may have to
bring korbanos, it is particularly hard to see how knowing which part of
the har habayis they had to be shechted on would ever be a required bit
of knowledge.

Chana

RYGB writes:
> Firstly, for those without a Vina edition, it is Perek 4 Halacha 5....
> R' Ze'ira chides him and says *even* for exchanging a letter ("Eem"
> vs' "V'Eeem") - the connotation is obvious, and in line with the Terumas
> Ha'Deshen - but not lesser errors.

	Ain hachi nami, not lesser errors.  My contention, though, is that while
a change of vowel from kamatz to patach or from segol to tzere are less a
change than "im" and "v'im," there are changes of vowel which make it a
different word: Paroh is nor p'ruoh, timche es zachar Amalek is not
timche es zaicher Amalek, etc.  There, the vowel change makes it a
different word, which even R' Yirmiya took for granted requires
correction.  (For that matter, it can be argued that ba'ah and baah' are
different words as well.)

Sadya N. Targum

>On Tue, 26 Sep 2000 14:45:39 -0400 Micha Berger said:
>>What about "pull", a chumrah I accept because I am moved by the motivation
>>behind the p'sak? ...
><SNIP>

When I use an oil menotrah for chanukkah I consider it a hiddur as such,
when I am pressed for time and wax candles are quicker I revert back to
wax w/o regrets.

If oil were a chumrah, I would have a problem with all of a sudden
being meikel.

IOW, my chibuv mitzva for the oil licht prompts me to action, but it's
a "nediv leiv" action, I do not feel compelled to do so when there are
trade-offs, (e.g. lighting before the zman passes).

Similarly, when I don a hat to daven I do not consider it a chumra but
a hiddur. I often do not don a hat to daven.

Simlarly I wear a wool tallis katan (or is that ketanah? <G>) because of
hiddur, but not during the summer when it would cause me excessive heat.

Hiddur pulls me to do better, but does not impose an obligation. Now we
can discuss gadol metzuveh v'oseh as the next thread <g>.

Shanah Tova - Happy New Year
Rich Wolpoe
pmsrxw@ibivm.ibi.com

On Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 04:20:29PM -0400, Richard Wolpoe wrote:
: Hiddur pulls me to do better, but does not impose an obligation. Now we
: can discuss gadol metzuveh v'oseh as the next thread <g>.

The same could be said of most things called chumros assuming that the chumrah
is not minhag avos nor the p'sak one recieved lihalachah that happens to be
more stringent. For example, most people who try to follow the Brisker chumrah
WRT areivum do not hold this to be ikkar hadin, IOW, they don't insist that
carrying is altogether assur. Particularly those men who hold by this chumrah
but do not expect their wives to be tied to the home with little children
by it.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org            you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org       You light a candle.
(973) 916-0287                  - R' Yekusiel Halbserstam of Klausenberg zt"l

On Tue, 26 Sep 2000 16:14:07 -0400 sadya n targum said:
> Ain hachi nami, not lesser errors.  My contention, though, is that while
>a change of vowel from kamatz to patach or from segol to tzere are less a
>change than "im" and "v'im," there are changes of vowel which make it a
>different word: Paroh is nor p'ruoh, timche es zachar Amalek is not
>timche es zaicher Amalek, etc.  There, the vowel change makes it a
>different word, which even R' Yirmiya took for granted requires
>correction.  (For that matter, it can be argued that ba'ah and baah' are
>different words as well.)

aiui Sadya is correct
Illustrations:
eis vs. es socheil vs. sochal etc.
are vowel errors having more to do with syntax within a passuk
or phrase and threfore do not impact the intrinsic meaning, therefore
they are ok w/o doing over.

bo'OH vs BO'oh changes the tense though the verb is the same. To me
this is a grey area

Ayil and Ayal are 2 different animals.  That would be a definite do-over

Also isheh and ishah is a do-over just like
phra'oh and par'oh is a do-over.

Eilav instead of Alav might actually mean the same thing in certain
contexts, but since they imply different letters (alpeh vs. Ayin)
that's a do-over.

Shanah Tova - Happy New Year
Rich Wolpoe
pmsrxw@ibivm.ibi.com

On Tue, 26 Sep 2000 16:43:27 -0400 Micha Berger said:
>The same could be said of most things called chumros assuming that the chumrah
>is not minhag avos nor the p'sak one recieved lihalachah that happens to be
>more stringent. For example, most people who try to follow the Brisker chumrah
>WRT areivum do not hold this to be ikkar hadin...

ein hachi nami but I got an AHA!

A chumrah as with eiruv is like a lo saaseh
A hiddur as with oil menorahs is an asseh.

Lich'orah your PULL to do extra has to do with ahava and assei
is the more natural connection.

The PULL wrt eiruv, heicha havi?  It seems that this stems from yir'ah
not ahavah and is a PUSH and a chumrah.

Unless of course I am missing something here...

Shanah Tova - Happy New Year
Rich Wolpoe
pmsrxw@ibivm.ibi.com

In a message dated 9/26/00 1:32:42pm CDT, owner-avodah@aishdas.org writes:
> So why don't I make Birchos haTorah again when I wake up?

Some poskim require birchas haTorah in the context of a shinas keva( Mishna 
Brurah 10 to Orach Chaim 47:10.See ishei Yisrael 6:25 , footnote 64 for a 
detailed discussion                  Steven Brizel
                                  Zeliglaw@aol.com

In a message dated 9/26/00 8:11:31am EDT, micha@aishdas.org writes:
> In either case, don't issues of perishah min hatzibbur and yuharah arise?

Excellent question. Hmmm, let me try this. Let's say I daven in a shul where 
there is no particular minhag regarding sitting or standing for chazaras 
hashatz. If I become aware of the shittas a Gr"a, explaining the Diyuk of the 
language of the Rambam formulating ChHaSh"tz as Tefillas Hatzibur as 
requiring standing for the repetition as well, a chumra adopted by the 
Brisker world, and I find that logic compelling, am I not choosing to observe 
what might be characterized as a chumroh based on the attractiveness of the 
S'varah? 
There is an alternative, by the way. Which is that no seemingly stringent 
action should be considered a chumroh unless it is enacted to be "Yotzei Kol 
Hadeios."
Now, how would these considerations lead to Yuhoro?
I could see yuhoro where a conspicuous act of stringency was a result of a 
decision to accept chumros to satisfy the feeling on the person to do what he 
thought was frummest. I say this without confidence in my own understanding 
of Yuhoro, so if I need some filling in, let me know.

Jordan Hirsch   

> Even though you know that the halachah is like one opinion, you are machmir
> for other opinions.

This derech is prevalent among Chachmei ashkenaz and especially among 
Talmidei Maharam MeRottenburg. Dr Sperber devotes a lot in Chelek Alef and 
Bet to the pheneomenon of being yotzei lchol hashitos in his Minhagei Yisrael
                           Steven Brizel
                            Zeliglaw@aol.com

>: Is it not the end of the shmitta year that releases debts?
 
> It's not so simple. I believe it's a machlokes rishonim. Lubavitch, for
> example, does a pruzbul at the begining AND at the end of the year. >>

According to the Rosh and the Ritva Shemitta takes effect on loans at the ed 
of the seventh year. The Tumim notes that according to the Ibn Ezra, the 
peshat of 'iketz sheva shanom' is, the front end, i.e., the end of the 6th 
yr. The Tumim explains that at the end of the 6th yr., one cannot deand his 
lkoan, but can accept it if given, without needing to say 'eshameit ani.' 
After the end of the 7th yr., he must say 'eshaeit ani,' as we find in the 
ishnah at the end of Shvi'is.I think that the Shulchan Aruch Horav follows, 
or is chosheish for, the opinion of the Tumim. More on this shita can be 
found in Mishnas Yosef to Mishnayos Shvi'is.When I was in Yeshivas Brisk in 
Chicago in 1979, the end of the 6th yr. in the cycle,the yeshiva provided 
prozbuls for everyone.However I have been told that Rav Shachter was recently 
asked about it in YU, and he said the minhag is not to be chosheish for it, 
since most shitos are otherwise.

From Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky's sefer on Shulchan Aruch: to help out in
the house, such as taking out the garbage, is a gemilas chesed to your
wife and therefore, as cheftzei Shamayim, permitted before davening.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

Chana Luntz <Chana/Heather@luntz.demon.co.uk> writes:
>Presumably on the grounds that they do not consider themselves even on
>the level of the doros haacharonim of the gemorra and certainly would
>not consider themselves capable of achieving the level of the doros
>harishonim (see Brachos 53b). 

Sorry, I can't type, that should be 35b!

-- 
Chana/Heather Luntz

At 09:37 PM 9/24/00 +0300, Shoshana L. Boublil wrote:
>>  From what I understood, the Shvatim had the same Halacha, but
>> different Minhagim. ...

From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>:
> Define, please, halacha - is the amount of time to wait between meat and
> milk halacha or minhag? What about the nusach ha'tefilla? Or, whether women
> may wear wigs or must wear hats as headcoverings?

Couldn't you give me something easier? <g>

Meat and milk is halacha.  As we don't have Sanhedrin -- each person
who learned from a Rav Muvhak must follow his Rav.  We have an example
with chicken and milk where as long as Rav Yossi HaGlili was alive was
permitted, b/c he heard from his rabbis and his psika was accepted.
After he died there was no continuance and it was forbidden also in
the Galil.

Nusach is difficult as it is a combination of Minhag and Halacha.
This is addressed clearly in psika of Rav Ovadia and others when asked
if a person can say or omit certain things.

Minhag would be if a place keeps a special Purim b/c they were saved.
There would be no reason to force everyone else to keep it unless it
was a national thing, but there would be no reason to prevent them
from having a local Purim to thank Hashem for His aid.

Minhag is issues like which blessing do you say on which fruit/veg. on
Erev Rosh Hashana?   Do you say only on the apple in honey?  Do you
also have Rosh Keves?  How about pomegranate?  Carrots?  Spinach?
Leeks? Pumpkin?  Sesame seeds?  Dates?  Do you serve it with honey --
or with sugar?    Do you allow fish on Rosh Hashana or forbid it?  On
Pesach do you dip the vegetables in salt water or vinegar water?   How
do you do the "blood" for the 10 commandments?  Does each person drop
a few drops of wine for each word, or is it only done by the Ba'al
HaBayit who pours the wine into a bowl and his wife pours water into
the same bowl at the same time?   Does your wife immerse in the Mikvah
once pre-bracha and once after?  Or perhaps 3 before and 4 after?  Or
1 before and 7 after?  These are all Minhagim.

Yes, sometimes what is halacha and what is minhag can be blurred, but
that is what rabbis are for -- to differentiate when it matters (which
korban would you bring for transgressing in different cases).

Shanna Tova,
Shoshana L. Boublil

The fifth instance in which we're likely to be moved to tshuvah:

During the Asseres Y'mai Tshuvah.

I feel justified in offering Rabbenu Yonah's words this week in their
entirety without comment, because the selection is relatively short
and straightforward, and because we are ourselves fast approaching the
Asseres Y'mai Tshuvah.

What follows is my published translation of Shaarei Tshuvah 2:14.

Your heart should agonize, if you fear the word of G-d, during the
Ten Days of Repentance, knowing that your deeds are being recorded in
a book, and that G-d is subjecting everything you do, inside and out,
good and bad, to judgment just then. For man is judged on Rosh Hashanah,
and his judgment is sealed on Yom Kippur.

For if you knew your case was being brought before a mortal king, wouldn't
you shudder and tremble, mull over ideas, and do everything you possibly
could, as quickly as you could, to rescue yourself? You wouldn't think of
digressing, or of attending to anything else. You wouldn't bother seeing
to it that your field is plowed or furrowed, or tend to your vineyard.
Nor would you dare be lax about preparing to flee like a deer in an
instant if you then came upon troubles.

How foolish you'd be, then, to go about your business until the very
eve of the Days of Awe, the days of judgment and sentencing, without
knowing your verdict! Shouldn't you be reflecting on how you'd respond
when spoken about? As it's said, "What will we do for our sister on the
day she will be spoken about" (Song of Songs 8:8)?

It's important for you then, as a G-d-fearing person, to restrict your
activities, to block out all other thoughts, to set aside periods of time
in the course of the day and night to be alone in your room and scrutinize
and examine your ways, to rise up in the early morning in order to do
tshuvah and rectify your deeds, and to pour out supplications, pray,
implore, and plead.

For that is a favorable period of time, and your prayers are listened to
then. As it's said, "I responded to you at a favorable time..." (Isaiah
49:8). And as our sages said, "The verse, 'Seek out G-d when He can be
found' (Isaiah 55:6) refers to the ten days between Rosh Hashanah and
Yom Kippur" ( Yevamot 49B).

In fact, it's a Torah imperative to rouse yourself to return to G-d on Yom
Kippur. For it's said, "You will be cleansed of all your sins before G-d"
(Leviticus 16:30), which our sages explained means, "Since Yom Kippur
atones when accompanied by tshuvah, the verse is thus warning us to
purify ourselves before G-d through tshuvah, and that He will forgive
us on that day in order to purify us" (Yomah 86A).

-- Yaakov Feldman
A goot g'bentcht yoor!

> <snip>
>Yodua from Tos. and other Rishonim that something that was put into Tefila is
>100% true.
> <snip>
>Kol Tuv, KVCT,
>
>Yitzchok Zirkind

This is worthy of its own thread, the role and nature of liturgy
in machshava and halachah.

Here is my Hypothesis:
    The liturgy is a repository of normative beliefs.  That in
    addition to supplications to and praises of HKBH, the
    litrugy contains a large set of affirmations.

Some insights:
#1  If this were not true, why bother arugin over the apporopirateness
    of reciting "machnisei Rachamim"  The fact that poskim agaonize over
    the implications of reciting a poem indicates that its recitation
    confirms its presuppositions, or at least needs redefining.

#2  In the absence of any controversy, it can be presumed that
    a piyyut or Tefilah's presupposition is normative.

#3  Therefore the presence of Yigdal and Ani Maamin in the liturgy-
    w/o any controversy - is testimony to its "virtual universal
    acceptance" (See Artscroll & Baer Siddur)

#4  Any midrashic homily that is not in the liturgy might therefore
    be freely presumed to not be a normative belief.  So if there
    is a guzma or hyperbole in the Midrash we are free to presume
    it being metaphorical in the absence of evidence to the contrary.
    Therefore Noach's Teiva - which is explicitly mentioned in the
    Mussaf of RH - cannot be mere allegory from a normative perspective.

#5  The liturgy should be treated as the single most important work
    of normative beliefs because it has been ratified by both the
    masses and the gedolim. And as per #2 above, any silence of the Gedolim
    over periods of centuries ought to be construed as acquiesence.
    And those few piyyutim that DO generate controversy are duly noted as
    exceptions.

Note: By liturgy, I refer to the Siddur, Machzor, Selichos, Kinos, etc.
Note: By normative beliefs I refer to two categories:
    A) Ikkarim/Fundamentals - Denial of these beliefs would be literally
    "kofer b'ikkar"
    B) Normative Beliefs - Denial of these beliefs would be assur
    yet would be no more severe than a mumar le'teiavon.

Shanah Tova - Happy New Year
Rich Wolpoe

pmsrxw@ibivm.ibi.com

At 04:23 PM 9/27/00 +0300, Shoshana L. Boublil wrote:
>Meat and milk is halacha.  As we don't have Sanhedrin -- each person
>who learned from a Rav Muvhak must follow his Rav...
>Nusach is difficult as it is a combination of Minhag and Halacha....
>Minhag would be if a place keeps a special Purim b/c they were saved....
>Minhag is issues like which blessing do you say on which fruit/veg. on
>Erev Rosh Hashana? ....

So we agree that we do not want uniformity in *all* matters of *halacha*?

KVCT
YGB

*********************


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