Avodah Mailing List

Volume 05 : Number 098

Wednesday, August 2 2000

• Hafko'as Kiddushin
• Re: Nishtanah haTeva
• Re: kiddushin al tnai
• Re: kiddushin al tnai
• Re: kiddushin al tnai
• Re: kiddushin al tnai
• Kiddushin al tnai
• Re: Kiddushin al tnai
• Re: Kiddushin al tnai
• Nine Steps to Ahavas Yisrael

The Rashba (Teshuvos 1185 & 1206, see ET vol. 2 p. 140), cited by the Rama 
(EH 28:21), says we are not b'ko'ach l'hafki'a kiddushin ba'zman ha'zeh 
without a get.


KT,
YGB

In a message dated 7/31/00 2:02:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
micha@aishdas.org writes:

> R' Yaakov Menken ... made the following observation ...
> "Nishtanah haTeva", as understood by most, says that Chazal believed in
> evolution well before Lamark and Darwin suggested it.

The RaDaL on PDRE suggests something similar, in answering how Noach was able
to take in all species of animals, and what about the animals specific to a
given ecosystem.

Kol Tuv
Yitzchok Zirkind

On 31 Jul 2000, at 18:58, Shinnar, Meir wrote:
> While R Sherer is correct that some poskim forbid living together in the case
> of kiddushin al tnai, many do not (the Seride Esh specifically mentions that
> in a letter to R Jung published by R Marc Shapiro in his volume of Kitve
> haseride esh.)

Which poskim permit the couple to live together in a Kiddushin al tnai? Which
do not? Does it matter what the tnai is?

> The solution developed by R Berkovits was to have been published in Noam,
> but ended up being published by Mossad Harav Kook.

Is the book (pamphlet?) available through Mossad HaRav Kook? Do you have its
name?

> Shortly after publication, a virulent attack on R Berkovits's shita was
> published in Noam, and the claim made that R Weinberg retracted his haskama.

What was the halachic basis for the attack?

> Thus, the notion of kiddushin al tnai, at least according to some major
> poskim, is intrinisically acceptable. We shall see whether this current
> version gains more widespread acceptance.

Please post sources!

-- Carl

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

At 06:58 PM 7/31/00 -0400, Meir Shinnar wrote:
>Thus, the notion of kiddushin al tnai, at least according to some major
>poskim, is intrinisically acceptable. We shall see whether this current
>version gains more widespread acceptance.

It won't, unless, as the Aruch Ha'Shulchan, in his discussion of nesu'in 
al tnai in Hil Yibum notes, we introduce the new kibbud of eidei bi'ah.

KT,
YGB

RYGB wrote:
> It won't, unless, as the Aruch Ha'Shulchan, in his discussion of nesu'in 
> al tnai in Hil Yibum notes, we introduce the new kibbud of eidei bi'ah.

What does that mean?  If we have eidei bi'ah then we would say ein adam oseh 
be'ilaso be'ilas zenus and therefore they are married without a tenai?

Gil Student

At 01:41 PM 8/1/00 -0400, Gil.Student@citicorp.com wrote:
>What does that mean?  If we have eidei bi'ah then we would say ein adam 
>oseh be'ilaso be'ilas zenus and therefore they are married without a tenai?

I think you meant if (*and only if*) there are eidei bi'ah who hear him 
make the tenai b'peh malei prior to bi'ah rishona then we say adam *shapir* 
oseh be'ilaso be'ilas zenus and they are successfully married al tenai. 
That is the AH's position (and I believe the predominating position in the 
kuntres cited by RCS earlier today).

KT,
YGB

<< Thus, the notion of kiddushin al tnai, at least according to some major
 poskim, is intrinsically acceptable. We shall see whether this current
 version gains more widespread acceptance. >>

I believe R. Meir Shinnars post does not correctly represent the halachic 
acceptability of Kedushin al Tenay. Firstly, there is a famous sefer called 
"Ain Tnai Binisuin" in which virtually every single gadol of the previous 
generation including Aruch Hashulchan, R. Meir Simcha, R. Chaim Soloveitchik, 
Divrei Malkiel, R. Chaim Ozer unequivocally rejected and forbade every type 
of Kidushin al tenay. Secondly, Rav Henkin in his sefer Lev Ivra authored a 
possible kedushin al tenay and sent it to gedolim all over the world. The 
response was overwhelmingly negative. Rav Henkin writes that he completely 
withdraws his proposal and that its implementation would be a great Takala. 
He does so even though he was well aware of the Aguna problem, which is why 
he wrote his original proposal in the first place.

As far as Rav Weinberg, his position is far from clear. He merely writes both 
sides of the issue and calls on the gedolim to decide. In no way does he 
indicate preference for one position over the other. The fact that he writes 
that it is theoretically possible is not significant. All are aware that the 
Talmud and Rishonim are full of examples of Tenay Bikidushin, the only 
question is if we could do it today, or was it rejected from normative 
halacha Limaase. A theoretical comment of R. Weinberg is not relevant Lmaase, 
especially when he clearly writes that he didn't have the energy to go 
through the sugya.

As far as R. Moshe Feinstein, there is no question that he was well aware
that there was an Aguna problem. He mentions in his Teshuvos that this is why
he was supportive of "Get laws." Also, Marc Shapiro does not write that R.
Moshe agreed even theoretically with R. Berkowtz's proposal, but rather
that R. Jung claims that Rav MD Tendler said that this is what R. Moshe
said. Not that I am CH"V doubting the integrity of R. Jung or R. Tendler,
just it should be obvious that such a report is far from having a teshuva
from R. Moshe supporting it even theoretically. (For example, R. Menashe
Klien claims that in front of a number of people -- including R. Tendler --
R. Moshe gave his haskomo to the BP Eruv. R. Moshe in his latest Teshuva on
the matter doesn't deny it, but writes that he wasn't speaking Limaase.)

Sof Davar: That Kidushin al Tenay is theoretically possible is certain. But 
no posek in the past hundreds of years has ever given it unequivocal support. 
Theoritical, equivical support can in no way overcome the overwhelming 
rejection of virtually all posekim.

Aaron Rubinson

In a message dated 8/1/00 4:02:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Tobrr111@aol.com 
writes:
> Sof Davar: That Kidushin al Tenay is theoretically possible is certain. But 
> no posek in the past hundreds of years has ever given it unequivocal support.
> Theoritical, equivical support can in no way overcome the overwhelming 
> rejection of virtually all posekim.

It is quite evident from looking into the many Sifrei Shut that every major 
Posek was Oseik in Heter Agunois, the fact that no broad solution was made 
speaks volumes.

Kol Tuv
Yitzchok Zirkind

On Tue, Aug 01, 2000 at 04:07:47PM -0400, Yzkd@aol.com wrote:
: It is quite evident from looking into the many Sifrei Shut that every major 
: Posek was Oseik in Heter Agunois, the fact that no broad solution was made 
: speaks volumes.

I'm not as sure. Compare the time interval between the birth of
interest-based banking and the heter iska -- literally centuries. The
current crises with mesarvei get involves a number of issues that really
only came up since WWII: the fall of the autonomous Jewish community (even
in Israel, a person can hop from kehillah to kehillah in ways that weren't
an option) and the frequency of civil divorce in our generation.

It's a bit too soon yet to look at the lack of evidence and wonder if it
is evidence of a lack.

Aside from that, I'm bothered by the general idea. What if Sarah Shneirur
would have taken the same attitude WRT permitting education for girls?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org            you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org       You light a candle.
(973) 916-0287                  - R' Yekusiel Halbserstam of Klausenberg zt"l

I was thinking of some way to observe the Nine Days that would promote
Ahavas Yisrael. In the spirit of the advice in Cheshbon haNefesh, and of
advice we often see for the Omer, I tried to identify 9 middos to aspire
to. Iy"h each day I could pay concious attention to that middah, and see
how I could better insert it into the day's activities.

As per the Cheshbon haNefesh and the REED's directions in learning mussar,
I'm outlining 9 quotes that I intend b"n to study and contemplate over
each of the next 9 days. Because I didn't plan sufficiently ahead to give
myself enough time, and because it's such a rich source, I limited myself
to searching through Avos.

1: Havei mekabeil kol adam beseiver panim yafos (1:15)

   "Mekabeil kol adam", greeting every person.

   Why is this (and tomorrow's) a quote of Shammai, the Av Beis Din and
   representative of middas hadin?

   Panim is not only used to refer to the face but also what we choose to
   show others of ourselves in general; c.f. "panim el panim". IOW, being
   courteous.

2: Eizehu mechubad? Hamchabeid es hab'rios. (4:1)

   A progression from day 1.

3: Vilo hakapdan milameid (2:5)

   Patience with others is an issue for me personally.

4: Vi'al tihi no'ach lich'os (2:10)

   In my case, impatience leads to frustration leads to anger.

5: Al tadin es chaveirchah... (2:4)

   Withholding judgement.

6: ...ad shetagi'ah limkomo (ibid)

   Trying to see the issue from the other's perspective.

7: Asei licha rav, kinei licha chaveir (1:15)

   Learning to accept authority and to view the connection (chaveir = chibur)
   one has with others.

   Why "asei" for a rav, but "kinei" for a chaveir?

8: Uchvod chaveircha kimorah rabicha (4:12)

   Continuing from day 7 -- again rav and chaveir.

   Obviously about the importance of another's kavod. Something to think about:
   how does one compare the kavod for one person to the yir'ah for another?

9: Hevei kal larosh, vino'ach lisachroshes, vihavei mekabeil es kol ha'adam
   bisimchah (3:12)

   Contrast to #2 -- where we didn't work on the feeling but only on
   the behavior.


I'm taking suggestions for Teshuvah season (R"Ch Elul onward) and for
next year.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org            you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org       You light a candle.
(973) 916-0287                  - R' Yekusiel Halbserstam of Klausenberg zt"l

********************


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