Avodah Mailing List

Volume 05 : Number 050

Thursday, May 25 2000

• Lag B'Omer
• Re: Keepsakes
• Ketuvot
• Techilaso be'fshia
• Re: Chasurei mechsara
• Re: hechsherim
• Re: Lag B'Omer: Bows and Arrows
• Lag Ba'omer (bows and arrows)
• Re: Keepsakes
• Chasurei mechsara
• Sheilas shalom
• Re: Lag Ba'omer (bows and arrows)
• lag baomer history
• Re: Techilaso be'fshia
• Re: hechsherim
• Re: Sholom Aleichem
• Re: Taz on Milah
• Guilt
• Priorities
• Re: Taz on Milah
• Re: Taz on Milah
• Re: Techilaso be'fshia

>From: "Markowitz, Chaim"   Subject: Lag B'Omer
>
>Does anyone know the reason for shooting bows and arrows on Lag B'Omer?

The Bnei Yisosschor gives a reason because during the lifetime
of Rabbi Shimon ben Yochai no rainbow (Keshes) ever appeared,
(see the song "V'amartem Ko Lechay": Kol Yomov Asher Choyo,
*Os HeKeshes Lo Nihyo*, Ki Hu Os Olom Hoyoh...),
which IIRC is based on a Gemoro.

Therefore on his yohrzeit - Lag B'Omer - when Rashbi departed this world,
(and the rainbow again began to reappear), we commemorate this
by children shooting Bows (also "Keshes") and arrows.

And as that song VKL concludes:
Toroso Mogen Lonu...Vehu Yamlitz Tov Ba'adenu...

SHLOMO B ABELES

--- Gil.Student@citicorp.com wrote:
> I used to think that way but now I realize that if we don't have pictures or
> keepsakes then we will simply forget our lives. I have trouble remembering how
> different my daughter was when she was a baby, before she started playgroup,
> during playgroup, during nursery,... The pictures help me remember the changes
> my children have gone through and gives me insight into their personality
> today. They also give me insight into my wife's and my own personality.
> Our experiences shape who we are and if we forget them we forget how we came
> to be who we are.

OTOH I had silent movies taken at my own wedding back in 1969 and I've watched
many times. Now when I think back about my wedding I always wonder whether
I'm remembering the wedding or the movie.

HM

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[Note from Micha: This has drifted off topic. I am letting this reply through,
but I think this branch of the conversation has little to do with the original
question.]

As the daf yomi has now gotten into the actual content and stipulations of a
ketuva, our shiur was wondering when the definitive text of the ketuva was
finalized. Can you point us to sources. Also, is the fixed text mandatory
today, or can there be deviations or additional clauses? If so, to what
extent?

    Thanks.
    David I. Cohen

Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 09:05:04 -0500
From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
Subject: Techilaso b'Ones Sofo b'Ratzon - Kesuvos 51b

<<Does anyone remember a Posek that shtells tzu the sugya to the
parameters of
oness to permit tefillas tashlumin?>>

	I don't recall who he quoted or indeed if he quoted anyone,  but Rabbi
Reisman made this explicit connection in a recent Navi shiur.  If you
like,  I can ask him for sources (or listen to the whole tape!).

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

	RJR's he'ara on nigun in the mishna is interesting;  the Mekor Baruch
(source of "My Uncle the Netziv" <g>) says this is what the Gemara means
when it says "kol hakoreh belo shiro veshoneh belo zimra alav hakasuv
omer...."

	But I find it hard to accept that the Mishna would edit for this purpose
i.e. chasurei mechsara.  

	I had heard that this was one way, after the Torah sheb'al Peh was
written down,  of keeping some semblance of b'al Peh to it.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

Um, RMS, that teshuva in the Igros Moshe is not quite relevant.

The issue there was a case of unfair competiton and yored l'umanuso shel
chaverio with attendant motzi la'az  (that R' Moshe (RMF) assumed was
incorrect, and spread merely to gain the competitor's the hashgocho, and
therefore motzi la'az).

RMF never stated, nor I believe would have stated, that a Mara d'Asra who is
not involved in competition and therefore has no vested interests, need go
to a BD before advising his constituency of the inacceptability of a certain
Hashgocho.

The BD there, in the IM's case, was essential because it was not a YD issue,
but a CM one (note the appearance of the teshuva in a CM volume of the IM).

On Avodah/Arevim, we hope to educate each other and uplift our common
standards in Avodas Hashem. Therefore, if we know of a YD problem, it is to
our mutual benefit ("Kol Yisrael Areivim zeh la'zeh") to bring it to our
common attention.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org


----- Original Message -----
From: <Chidekel@aol.com>
To: Avodah - High Level Torah Discussion Group <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 8:12 PM
Subject: hechsherim


> decided by a bet din, so according to this tshuva the issur of motzi shem
ra
> should apply.  In addition, if a restaurant or manufacturer changes
hashgacha
> because people don't "trust the hashgacha", there seems to be an issur of
> hassagat gvul against the people in stating that the hashgacha is "not
> reliable".
>
> Meir Shinnar
>

A bow is a Keshes, an arrow a Chetz. Take one half (chetz) of each letter of
Keshes (K=N; Sh=KN; S=R) and you get Nicanor. The Sha'ar Nikanor in the Beis
Ha'Mikdosh had fifteen steps, the gematria of Hod.

V'yesh makom l'ha'arich, yishma chochom v'yosif lekach.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

The Jews, under decree not to learn Torah, would go out with bows and arrows
to learn in the forest.  Should they be accosted by Romans (?), they would
claim that they were merely out hunting. Kach sham'ati. I thought this was
at least as yadu'a as HVD being the oppposite of DVH. . . .

Noach Witty

I recently heard a thought similar to that proposed by RJR.

Why did Hashem decide to have human beings procreate the way they do?
Hashem could have just as easily decided to have humans reproduce asexually
(IIRC from 9th grade biology, like amoebas).

The answer given was that Hashem did this to give us an idea of how intense
our love for Him should be.  Similarly, this is the reason Shir HaShirim was
written the way it was, in language that we can relate to.

KT
Aryeh



-----Original Message-----
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 16:15:14 EDT
From: Joelirich@aol.com
Subject: Re: Keepsakes

Pum fakert - for example, a rememberance of a beloved parent gives us the 
ability to understand on our limited level the love of HKB"H (anu kbanim)

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

MB wrote:
>> One thing that wasn't clear to me as a kid. "Tanya, amar R' ..." doesn't
mean "It says in a braisa, R' ... says..." Rather, "It was repeated that
R' ... says..." Yes, there is a different term for someone who repeated a
Mishnah (capital "M") than for someone who repeated other material of that
period. However, the word itself isn't a reference to a compilation.<<


I question on what basis the assertion above is made.  To the contrary, many
times toseftos are introduced with "tanya" and we can ourselves examine the
Tosefta and observe that it begins with "Amar R' Ploni : etc."  Therefore,
there is no reason to think the precise translation changes because the
source quoted is a braisa rather than a tosefta.  Again, do you have a
source for this tirgum mechuddash?

Your turn, Micha.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess I wasn't clear.

My point was that the word in general refers to someone repeating
memorized text -- be that text a mishnah, one recorded later, or one
that never made it into a compilation. I'm applying this chidush to the
root, and therefore to all of "tanya", "teninah", "tana", etc... My
explanation for the difference between conjugations is that a different
kind of memorization is involved for repeating something that was
compiled into Mishnayos at the time, and something that was compiled and
brought to a canonical form later.


While I don't have a source for this, I think my discussion of "tani tanna
kammei di-R' <insert Amorah's name here>" proves the point that they
used word "tanna" to refer to the repeater not to the one being repeated.

If it doesn't to your mind, then you can go with the translation you were
given in grade school. But then you have to explain why the word has two
different meanings.

-mi

I'm catching up

lich'ora Sh'eilas shalom comes from the statment "vayomer hashalom lo" Bresishis
29:6 - vayetze as an interrogative

KT
RW

On Wed, May 24, 2000 at 10:10:58AM -0400, Noah Witty wrote:
: The Jews, under decree not to learn Torah, would go out with bows and arrows
: to learn in the forest.  Should they be accosted by Romans (?), they would
: claim that they were merely out hunting. Kach sham'ati. ...

It was what I was taught as a kid as well. (Even before "ditanya". <grin>)

However, what's the connection between the Hadrianic persecutions (or someone
else's) and bidavka Lag Ba'Omer? According to the chidush that talmidei R'
Akiva died fighting for Bar Kochva, there is a connection. But according to
the rest of us?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 22-May-00: Levi, Bechukosai
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Yuma 10a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

r stolper has a very good essay from 1995 on the OU wweb site, analyzing the
probable historical events---  r akiva backing bar coziva, his students in
the army, rome's defeat, r akiva's rejection of the mashiach after he
murderd the tanna [the article says evidence seems to indicate beitar was
betrayed by the hebrew xtians] and the vast roman legions needed to end the
hopes of a geula shleima bimheira...

I'm confused on two points: 1) tashlumin is for shogeg,
not ones (we once discussed this online with regards to 
the Taz at the beg. of Hil. Aveilus re: the comparison
between an onen missing tefilla and an anus).  2) the
gemara in Shabbos 4 allows you to take the bread out of
the oven despite rediyas hapas to avoid the issur 
bishul.  If one remembers after putting the bread in,
that's sofo b'mazid, not ones, parallel to the Mishna
on 102. 

-CB  

To say that I am surprised at the pesak from R. Shlomo Aviner is an 
understatement.  I hope to address only the HALACHIC issues.


>>Every simple G-d fearing Jew is presumed reputable, and one can eat his food 
without question, and this applies all the more so with a Torah scholar.>>

He is saying two things here that are important.  First, he says that everyone 
has a chezkas kashrus.  However, this is not necessarily enough with regards to 
inyanei kashrus.  The Rambam (Ma'achalos Assuros 11:25) paskens that the chezkas
kashrus given to every Jew is not sufficient.  We require someone who is KNOWN 
to be muchzak bekashrus.  The Rama (Y"D 119:1) paskens like this Rambam (see Taz
2, Pri Chadash 3, Aruch HaShulchan 6).  Therefore, when a Jew you don't know 
tells you that something is kosher that is not enough.

Presumably, that is why RS Aviner added that we are dealing with a Torah 
scholar.  Certainly his semichah should render him "muchzak bekashrus".  
Therefore, from the Shulchan Aruch it would seem that any rabbi can be trusted.

However, the Pri Toar (end of 1) and the Taz (2) are clear that it all depends 
on the particular situation of that time and place and where there is room to be
suspicious one should be stricter (and where not, more lenient).  Later poskim 
are even stricter than the Rama.  See the Chochmas Adam (71:1), Shu"t Divrei 
Malkiel (3:22), Shu"t Divrei Chaim (1:22, 2:40) that not all hechsherim can be 
trusted and only those that are known to be reliable can be trusted.  See also 
the Sha'arim Metzuyanim BaHalachah (117:8).

Is RSA wrong for relying on the Shulchan Aruch?  No.  Is everyone else wrong for
following the subsequent 500 years worth of halachic development?  No.


>>Even if aspersions are cast against a particular hechsher, it is forbidden to 
believe them. Rather, they must be
rejected as Lashon Hara, evil speech, of the most abominable sort.>>

See Chafetz Chaim 2:10:6, 3:9:3-4 and in the Be'er Mayim Chaim that IF AND ONLY 
IF you know for a fact that the allegations are true, there is a to'eles, and 
one knows that tochachah will not help then it is not lashon hara.


>>Even if the supervising rabbi himself concedes that there are problems with 
the hechsher that he gives, it 
makes no difference whatsoever. Despite his having said that there are problems,
he still signed the word "kosher" on the product, signifying that he had 
determined that the problem had a solution.>>

A supervisor is believed for two reasons - chezkas kashrus and eid echad ne'eman
be'issurim.  I am not an expert in the complicated areas of chazakah but it 
seems obvious to me that an eidus overrides a chezkas kashrus.  Otherwise, how 
could we ever believe anyone that food is not kosher?

If so, the supervisor is TESTIFYING that the food is not kosher.  How could his 
chezkas kashrus override this eidus?  Is RSA assuming "keivan shehiggid shuv 
eino chozer umaggid" even by issurim?


>>Indeed, many Torah scholars customarily keep severe strictures at home, yet 
when they are invited to the homes of others, they eat without hesitation any 
food that has a hechsher.>>

The assumption is that the host will not serve a guest food that he considers 
assur.  See the Rama in Y"D 119:7.  However, there are poskim who hold that 
there is no lifnei iveir to serve someone food which he holds is assur so the 
guest MUST ask questions before eating.  The Maharalbach has a hotly disputed 
teshuvah which discusses these halachos in detail.  See the Darchei Teshuvah 
119:50-52 for an excellent summary of the shitos.


>>In a word, any food product that is marketed with the hechsher of a rabbi, 
whether Haredi or Zionist, whether from Eretz Yisrael or from abroad, is kosher.

Would RSA be willing to eat Hebrew National which is under the supervision a 
rabbi with orthodox semichah?

Gil Student
gil.student@citicorp.com

On Sun, May 21, 2000 at 11:17:25PM +1000, SBA wrote:
: Q. Why the change of nussach, with the first person saying "SA" and the
: second replying "AS"?

I hear the same notion as you repeated (thank you for providing the BR as his
"sheim omro"), but with this added notion.

Note the greetings in Rus 2:4. Bo'az greets with "Hashem Imachem", and they
reply with "Yivarecicha Hashem". Note that he places Hashem's name first,
and the meishivim put it last -- just as in Shalom Aleichem.

But unlike our greeting, Boaz and his staff actually used a sheim Hashem
for which "lo sisa sheim Hashem lashav" would apply. "Shalom" doesn't have
such a halachic issue. It was those doros that had to switch word order for
halachic reasons.

When we toned down from using real sheimos to using "Shalom" we translated,
therefore preserving the word order. The reason for the word order evaporated.
It's now minhag avoseinu.

So much for what I already heard. I'd like to add one more note of my own.

There is another custom that introduces assymetry in greetings. When I
wish someone a "Gut Voch", the customary reply is "Gut Yahr". Again, because
the person who initiates the exchange has a berachah already just for being
the initiator.

The same is also true of the greetings in Rus.

"Hashem Imachem" can also be "imo Anochi betzarah". "Yevarechicha Hashem"
asks for His "berachah". A "lason ribui", which therefore excludes the
contriction of "tzarah". Their greeting is therefore a greater wish than
his.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 22-May-00: Levi, Bechukosai
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Yuma 10a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

RGS <Gil.Student@citicorp.com> summarized RDC on the Taz. In it he presents
three important kelalim. I don't understand the second one.

: 2) When there is an asmachta to forbid then Chazal can (p. 76).

Isn't an asmachta just a mnemonic device, using the rules of derashah to
assist in remembering a din diRabanan? (That's the way I was taught it
in greade school.)

So why does it add halachic weight to allow overriding Hashem's explicit
statement permitting something?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 22-May-00: Levi, Bechukosai
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Yuma 10a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

I saw the following in this week's "Peninim on the Torah" by R' A. Leib
Scheinbaum. I thought the comment about guilt is particularly Avodah-esque,
and the closing comment about farfl was interesting.

-mi

...
: If a man articulates a vow to Hashem regarding a valuation of living
: beings. (27:2)

: The Torah addresses the concept of "arachin", valuations, this is a specific
: form of vow in which an individual may choose to contribute his value of
: himself or the value of another person to the Sanctuary. Interestingly, the
: laws of valuations are juxtaposed upon the Tochachah, Admonition. Is there
: some connection between the two: kelalos, curses, for negative behavior; the
: portent for what is to occur as a direct result of our negative attitude and
: lack of observance; and the positive message to be gleaned from the laws of
: valuations? Horav Meir Shapiro, zl, suggests a distinct relationship. When
: a Jew reads the Tochachah and its various implications, he may become
: depressed. Realizing what his responsibilities are, and the punishment he
: may suffer for not adhering to Hashem's command, one can become dejected,
: develop a low sense of self-esteem. When confronted with the seriousness
: of their erroneous ways, people will often give up. The Torah immediately
: addresses this emotion with the parsha of valuations in which a person
: is taught that even the simplest Jew has a value. Indeed, Jews are not
: categorized according to scholarship or observance, but, rather, according
: to their nationhood. Being a Jew establishes one's value.

: Guilt, which can be healthy since it motivates one to repent, can also be a
: source of depression. The Kotzker Rebbe, zl, was wont to say, "Whether one
: thinks of a sin longingly or reflects upon it with great remorse, his mind is
: preoccupied with sin. A sin is like mud: regardless of the way one handles it,
: he becomes muddy." After teshuvah, repentance, one must go on with life --
: with pride and dignity.

: One who capitulates to the effects of guilt is falling prey to the yetzer
: hora, evil inclination, whose goal it is to destroy -- regardless of the
: method. Depression is as much a conquest as joy in performing evil. If
: the yetzer hora compels us to ruminate over our past indiscretions to the
: point that we are saddened and dispirited, we cannot act constructively --
: and this is exactly what he wants. He has us doing teshuvah constantly in
: such a manner that he successfully prevents us from performing mitzvos.
: After all, how can someone so contaminated by sin act in a positive manner?
:  This is the yetzer hora speaking to us, encouraging us to false piety.
: Indeed, such frumkeit can be self -- defeating. Regardless of what one
: has done in the past, he must not despair. Rather, he should look to the
: future, taking into account what he can do, not what he has done. Indeed,
: it was the Baal Shem Tov who instituted the custom of serving "farfel,"
: toasted barley/pasta, at the Friday night meal to emphasize that as Shabbos
: begins, we make closure to the events of the previous week. Everything is now
: "farfallen," bygone. In this manner, we begin the new week, fresh, unhampered
: by the errors of the past. May we all be worthy of this feeling.

The following, taken from Outlooks & Insights by R' Zev Leff is also intriguing
and on topic for Avodah and AishDas.

-mi

: The prophetic warning concerning our future failings contains the following
: sequence of events. G-d will send an enemy to invade Eretz Yisrael, and the
: Jews will gather within the protective walls of Jerusalem. The encircled Jews
: will fall prey to a plague from which many will die. Since it is prohibited to
: leave a corpse in Jerusalem, the bodies will have to be taken out the city,
: and in this manner the people will he delivered into the hands of the enemy
: (see Rashi to Vayikra 26:25).

: This sequence is at first glance astounding. The prohibition of leaving a
: corpse in Jerusalem is rabbinic. Even had it been a Torah law, the danger
: to life involved in burying outside the walls would have taken precedence
: over the rule that burial is forbidden in Jerusalem. Another problem: the
: generation the Torah is describing is one in which murder, idolatry and
: immorality were rampant. Would people steeped in such crimes risk their
: lives to fulfil a rabbinic law?

: But that is just the point of the rebuke. When one studies Torah
: superficially, one's perspective is necessarily fragmented and distorted
: and his emphasis will be askew. What will he lacking is a view of mitzvos
: as part of a totality and in the light of the totality.

On 24 May 00, at 19:52, Micha Berger wrote:

> RGS <Gil.Student@citicorp.com> summarized RDC on the Taz. In it he presents
> three important kelalim. I don't understand the second one.
> 
> : 2) When there is an asmachta to forbid then Chazal can (p. 76).
> 
> Isn't an asmachta just a mnemonic device, using the rules of derashah to
> assist in remembering a din diRabanan? (That's the way I was taught it
> in greade school.)

I think an asmachta is a hint in the Torah to a din d'Rabbanan.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

In a message dated 5/24/00 8:54:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
micha@aishdas.org writes:

<< 
 RGS <Gil.Student@citicorp.com> summarized RDC on the Taz. In it he presents
 three important kelalim. I don't understand the second one.
 
 : 2) When there is an asmachta to forbid then Chazal can (p. 76).
 
 Isn't an asmachta just a mnemonic device, using the rules of derashah to
 assist in remembering a din diRabanan? (That's the way I was taught it
 in greade school.) >>
There's a shita (ritva?) that asmachta is a higher level than a plain 
drabanan because it's not a mnemonic but HKB"H put that pasuk there so the 
Rabbis could use it if they need it.

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

On 24 May 2000, at 12:14, C1A1Brown@aol.com wrote:

2) the
> gemara in Shabbos 4 allows you to take the bread out of
> the oven despite rediyas hapas to avoid the issur 
> bishul.  If one remembers after putting the bread in,
> that's sofo b'mazid, not ones, parallel to the Mishna
> on 102. 

I think you and your brother in law are in cahoots :-) RYGB cited 
this the other night, I asked him about it privately, and he didn't 
want to answer unless I put it on the list. So here goes....

RYGB cited this based on Tosfos in Shabbos there, as brought 
down by the Sridei Eish in Sanhedrin 41 (P. 306). As I understand 
it both the Tosfos and the Sridei Eish (and I have neither in front of 
me, as I hoped this message would come to my house in a new 
digest this morning and it did not) hold that rediyas ha'pas is 
tchiloso b'meizid v'sofo b'ones. IIRC Tosfos there writes, 
"he'emeedu chachamim es divreihem afilu b'makom skila." But 
because the aveira results from chachamim not allowing you to 
remove the pas from the oven, you are patur from skila.

Comments?

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

********************


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