Avodah Mailing List

Volume 05 : Number 036

Friday, May 5 2000

• Re: shaving on yom ha'azmaot
• Re: Sources on each word divine
• Re: sources on each word divine
• Re: Yom Tov Sheni
• redeeming your son vs. buying an esrog
• Re: Haircutting on YhA - the lomdus
• shaving on yom ha-atzmaut
• Re: shaving on yom ha'azmaot
• Re: shaving on yom ha'azmaot
• Re: shaving on yom ha-atzmaut
• Re: shaving
• Re: shaving on yom ha-atzmaut/lomdus
• Re: redeeming your son v. buying an etrog
• Re: Haircutting on YhA - the lomdus
• RE: Lo S'Choneim (was Re: aniyei ircha)
• Re: Haircutting on YhA - the lomdus
• Re: shaving on yom ha'azmaot
• Re: Memorial days
• Ym Jirtzah Hashem vs B'li Neder

R Aharon Soloveitchik holds that sefira has the halacha of Yud Beis Chdesh
(Briskers put minhagim, whenever they can, into pre-existing halachic
categories). One may shava or take haircuts during Yud Beis Chodesh whenever
one reaches "kedei sheyig'aru bo chaveirav". By shaving that's considered
to be every day (as opposed to haircutting).

On Thu, May 04, 2000 at 02:51:58AM +0200, David and Tamar Hojda wrote:
: >Ibn Ezra feels that the last 13 verses were written by Joshua. What does he
: >hold with regards to the rest of the Torah?

: This is extremely controversial. The Ibn Ezra seems to say that there are
: several pasukim in the Torah that may have been edited after the time of
: Moshe Rabbeinu, as it would be anachronistic for Moshe to have written them.

Not as a general rule. As noted, he ridicules the idea that the list of
kings of Edom (which ends well after Moshe's lifetime, according to most)
must have been added later than Moshe. So, it's not the problem of
anachronism.

Ibn Ezra (IE) complains that had Moshe written the words "vayamas Moshe" it
would violate "midvar sheker tirchak". How can a person write of their
own petirah.

: However, ALL of the pasukim are still of divine origin; it is just that a
: later navi might have added them or changed them, through a prophecy from
: HaShem.

As far as I can see, the IE keeps the writing of the Torah to within the
Yetzias Mitzrayim period. This is quite likely his equivalent of the Rambam's
requirement in belief that it was all given to Moshe.

: Some say that these statements, even though they appear in the Ibn Ezra's
: commentary, could not possibly be authentic.

Perhaps here would be a good place to insert an email I had yet to approve.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  3-May-00: Revi'i, Kedoshim
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 34a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Yeshaiah 3

You quote the Ibn Ezra ?? Look at the Hakdama of the Yam shel Shlomo
Bava Kamma, 2nd page 1st column on what he writes about the Ibn Ezra :-)

Josh

On Wed, May 03, 2000 at 12:18:09PM +0200, Carl M. Sherer wrote:
:> I had the same thought.  However, the issue is minhag avoseichem
:> b'yodeichem.  The minhog of those living in chutz la'aretz was always
:> not to observe yom tov sheni when they were in eretz yisrael.  The
:> minhag of those who lived in eretz yisrael was always to observe
:> yom tov sheni when they were in chutz la'aretz.  

: Do you have a source for that? All I remember the Gemara (Beitza 
: 4 IIRC) saying was that those who are in chutz la'aretz should be 
: nizhar for the minhag of their forefathers, in case some day the 
: goyim prevent the maintenance of a Jewish calendar R"L.

The change from observing two days to one is not likely, in my estimation,
to be based on changing minhag due to changing kehillah. If it were so,
then we'd have an inconsistancy between this, in which we change a minhag
in a matter of years (or minutes) after moving, while people are following
the customs of the kehillos they haven't lived in for generations.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  3-May-00: Revi'i, Kedoshim
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 34a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Yeshaiah 3

David's astonishment at the idea of buying an esrog having precedence
over redeeming a son ( S.A, O.H.656 based on R' Yehudah in T.B.,
Kiddushin 29b) is misplaced.  The Gemara and Shulchan Aruch commentaries
are clearly discussing the non-threatening case of redeeming a
first-born son.  If you do not have 5 shekels for the kohen and
left-over money to buy an esrog, then the suggestion is to delay the
pidyon bechor and use the money for the esrog since the pidyon can be
done later.  In a case of a captive, no one would consider delaying the
ransom payment if the money is needed for a mitzvah overet since a
danger to life and limb exists.  That danger overrides melacha on
shabbat, much less an aseh.

Yitzchok Zlochower

<< what authority can overturn  Minhag Yisroel to refrain from hircuts on Yom 
Ha'Atzma'ut? 'Twould seem to  me that only a cheftza of a Yom Tov can do 
that, and I do not see how we can  devise such a Yom Tov without an haskomo 
from rov minyan u'binyan Am  Yisroel. >>

A Y"T is necessary to be doche a real chiyuv of aveilus (M.K. 14), but that 
halacha is inapplicable to sefirah, which is never explicitely recorded in 
Shas a having dinei aveilus at all.  The only issue here is minhag.  

The Chayei Adam at the end of Hil. Purim writes that a nes which occured to 
one's family/oneself should be celebrated as a personal Y"T as a zecher 
l'nes.  This is a real obligation based on a line in megillas ta'anis and was 
sufficient reason for R' Ya'akov Emden to not be mashlim a Tishe B'Av which 
was nidche(!) - see also Chasam Sofer O.C. 191.  We should not be stringent 
with regard to minhagim of sefirah which are more kal (the Rama is explicit 
that a ba'al bris, i.e. someone who is celebrating a personal Y"T, may shave 
during sefirah)

I would add that the 33 days we designate to mourn over the death of R' 
Akiva's students do not necessarily correspond to the 33 days in which they 
died (see IG"M 159 as to hesbeirim for the various minhagim).  Acc. to at 
least some of the minhagim the days of aveilus are figured by simply 
excluding Shabbosim, Rosh Chodesh, etc. and m'meila all other days become 
days of aveilus.  Based on that cheshbon why not exclude another day - we 
still are still mekayem the minhag which simply calls for observance to 
aveilus on all days not defined as days of simcha.  

(Parenthetically: even if rov of klal yisreal got together and declared a Y"T 
I don't think that has a chalos l'gabei real dinei avelius esp. acc. to the 
rishonim who learn the gemara in M.K. as stemming from simcha d'oraysa, and 
even acc. to other Rishonim, a Y"T derabbanan is declared by Sanhedrin.  Did 
you have in mind something that I missed?

Also, I am assuming that declaring statehood after 2000 years of exile is a 
miraculous occurance worthy of celebration and it is just a matter of whether 
that can be squared with dinei aveilus.  The lomdus is moot if someone denies 
that; I don't think its worth discussing)

-Chaim B.

> 
> Without any names, please, just straight lomdus, what authority can overturn
> Minhag Yisroel to refrain from hircuts on Yom Ha'Atzma'ut? 'Twould seem to
> me that only a cheftza of a Yom Tov can do that, and I do not see how we can
> devise such a Yom Tov without an haskomo from rov minyan u'binyan Am
> Yisroel.
> 
What is the halakha if one has a personal "Purim" day that some miracle
occurred in his family or community and they accept it as a "yomtov".
Can one shave on such a day within the sefira.

BTW I understood that there was a difference bewteen shaving and
taking a haircut.

Eli Turkel

In a message dated 5/3/00 12:58:43 PM, micha@aishdas.org writes:

<< there are issues of hefsed for those of us who work outside the frum
community, particularly people in sales and marketing. And how many people
aren't trying to impress buyers, potential suppliers, or even trying sell 
their
boss on the idea of a promotion? Unlike forgoing haircuts.
 >>

Please explain this issue to me so that I can understand it better.

Moderately trimmed beards, especially goatees and Van Dykes, are very 
fashionable these days, particularly among professional athletes and 
Hollywood types. These beards are usually accompanied with very short 
haircuts, including the Marine Corps-style "high and tight" which costs 
$50.00 in midtown Manhattan and $5.00 offbase near Camp Pendleton.

I understand that some very observant Jews refuse to trim their beards. Most 
Jews who wear beards for religious reasons, however, appear to use a scissors 
now and then to balance things out. So . . . maybe they should trim the beard 
a little tighter and shave most of the hair off their heads. Then they could 
be frum *and* fashionable.

David Finch

On Thu, May 04, 2000 at 12:16:27AM -0400, David Finch <DFinchPC@aol.com>
quoted me and wrote:
:> there are issues of hefsed for those of us who work outside the frum
:> community, particularly people in sales and marketing. And how many people
:> aren't trying to impress buyers, potential suppliers, or even trying sell 
:> their boss on the idea of a promotion? Unlike forgoing haircuts.

...
: Moderately trimmed beards, especially goatees and Van Dykes, are very 
: fashionable these days, particularly among professional athletes and 
: Hollywood types....

I'm not sure how this is relevent. A trimmed beard requires daily or near
daily shaving, just as much as a cleanshaven face does. (Just over less
area.) My statement still stands that shaving might be permissable if it
could threaten sufficient fiscal loss. But even if not, this was not
the only sevarah I suggested.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  3-May-00: Revi'i, Kedoshim
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 34a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Yeshaiah 3

I do not know that such a day would override the minhag not to cut hair -
which is why I ask the question.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il>
Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2000 4:29 AM

...
> What is the halakha if one has a personal "Purim" day that some miracle
> occurred in his family or community and they accept it as a "yomtov".
> Can one shave on such a day within the sefira.
...

>>>My statement still stands that shaving might be 
permissable if it could threaten sufficient fiscal loss. <<<

R' Moshe cites this sevara in IG"M chelek 4.  Basically 
a hefsed overrides a minhag.

-Chaim B.

>>>I do not know that such a day would override the
 minhag not to cut hair<<<

Why do you draw a distinction - a Y"T is a Y"T and
overrides the minhagei aveilus, whatever they may be. 

I would just add to my previous posting that perhaps for
those who wish to be machmir you could be mesayem a
masechta and have a seudas miztva on Yom Ha'atzmaut as
an added matir for the simcha (which as we know is 
sufficient to be doche the minhagei aveilus of not 
eating meat during shavua she'chal bo tisha b'av), see
the Shut Chasam Sofer.  

-Chaim B.

I wrote (5:34):

<<<
In hilkhot etrog S.A. O.H. s. 658, the nosei keilim mention the halakha 
based on a gemara in kidushin 29a, that one who has only enough 
money to redeem his son from captivity or to buy an etrog for Sukot is
obligated to buy the etrog, because the etrog is a mitzvah overet and
redeeming your son is a mitzvah she'einah overet.  
>>>

I would like to apologize for two mistakes that I made.  First I should
have cited s. 656 not 658.  Second, and much more serious, I should
have realized that the reference to redeeming a son was not to
redeeming a son from captivity but to the mitzvah of pidyon ha-ben.  I 
am grateful to Avraham Weidberg for kindly bringing this 
misinterpretation to my attention.

I therefore also apologize for the indignant tone of the next 
paragraph of my earlier posting the specific text of which there
is no point in repeating now.

David Glasner
dglasner@ftc.gov

There is precedent for eating on 9 Av nidcheh in Shas.

But what constitues a personal Yom Tov that can be copied here?

A day of hodo'oh does not necessarily have the same character as a bris
mila.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: <C1A1Brown@aol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2000 9:33 PM

> The Chayei Adam at the end of Hil. Purim writes that a nes which occured to
> one's family/oneself should be celebrated as a personal Y"T as a zecher
> l'nes.  This is a real obligation based on a line in megillas ta'anis and was
> sufficient reason for R' Ya'akov Emden to not be mashlim a Tishe B'Av ...
> We should not be stringent with regard to minhagim of sefirah which are more
> kal (the Rama is explicit that a ba'al bris, i.e. someone who is celebrating
> a personal Y"T, may shave during sefirah)
...

-----Original Message-----

>I'm not sure RSZA would agree with that. I think the case posited 
>was that the husband decided to be machmir only for himself, but 
>to continue to benefit from his wife's use of the eruv, i.e. to treat his 
>wife as a Shabbos goy. I think if the husband wanted to be 
>machmir on the entire family the response might have been 
>different.

The lashon of the Halichos Shlomo is not mashma like that; i.e., that even
if the husband wanted to be machmir for the entire family, this was not
recommended, since we can be somech on the Chazon Ish who holds that k'mat,
there is no reshus harabim b'zman hazeh.

KT
Aryeh 

>>>But what constitues a personal Yom Tov that can be
copied here?  A day of hodo'oh does not necessarily
have the same character as a bris mila.<<<

That was the assumption made by the Chayei Adam and the
Chasam Sofer, ayen sham, namely, a personal Y"T is
equivalent to a ba'al bris.  Even the Pri Chadash
who disagrees never denied that equation. 

As for the precedent of eating on 9 Av which is nidche
being mentioned in Shas, so what?  The gemara
shows that the aveilus is nidche in total.  That's the
whole crux of the Chayei Adam's position in arguing that
a personal nes has a din Y"T - its not just a heter to 
eat, see also the Chasam Sofer I cited.

To me it is no great leap to argue that the nes of the 
restoration of Jewish sovreignity in E.Y. should be
celebrated as a Y"T. If however, you deny that the
establishment of a state is a nes or deny that it is 
worthy of celebration, all the lomdus in the world is
irrelevant.  IOW: to be mechelek between a personal nes
and yom ha'atzmaut is a position I personally don't
think is reasonable, but aside from my umdena I have
no concrete proof and hence don't think it is a point
which can be debated.

-Chaim B.

RYBS considers the issurei aveilus of the omer to be
based on the issurei aveilus of an avel during the 12
months.  Therefore, since most are lenient during the
12 months to shave freely after the shiur ge'arah
(which many place at double the amount of time one
usually waits), RYBS said that during the omer the
same would apply and after the shiur ge'arah (for many
men - two days) one can shave freely.  See Nefesh
HaRav p. 191.

Note that the Pnei Baruch brings down a machlokes
about an avel during the 12 months.  Some say that in
between EACH shaving he has to wait the shiur ge'arah
while others say that after one shiur ge'arah he can
shave freely.  I've never seen anyone be machmir on
this.

Gil Student
temporarily at gil_student@yahoo.com

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Shalom,
    You are correct and in my tshuva in Bnei Banim I indeed mentioned R"H
Sivan. The mix-up came in the translation.
        With Torah Greetings,
         Rabbi Yehuda Henkin

----- Original Message -----
From: <richard_wolpoe@ibi.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2000 4:03 PM

If I recall correctly there was a terible pogrom during the Crusads on Rosh
Chodesh Sivan. I do not recall that Rosh chodesh Iyyar had a simlr event. Am
I
confused or perhaps this event in Worms as inded on Rosh chodesh Sivan and
not
on Iyyar?

_________ Reply Separator _________________

 They brought support for this dist inction from RokeĈah in chap. 212, who
recorded that in Worms an annual fast daywas established on Rosh Chodesh
Iyar to
recall a certain evil decree.

Seems to me that in my youth we used to say, "I will, b'li neder, do
such and such." I do not recall people saying, "I will, Im Yirtzah
Hashem to such and such."
Could it be that this represents a differnce in hashkafah? In the reisha
we are saying, I don't promise but I will do my utmost to do as I said.
In the seifah, might we not understand that I'll do it if HKBH helps me
do it. In one the former case the reliance is  on the self while in the
latter case, well, I'll do it but it's really is out of my hands so
don't hold it against me if it does not get done.

********************


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