Avodah Mailing List

Volume 05 : Number 023

Wednesday, April 19 2000

• Re: Fw: Ruchani Eye on Rabbi Ovadaih Yosef, shlita
• Chilul HaShem
• Rice for Pesach
• Quinoa
• Re: Packing peanuts, chometz, and quote of the Ari zl
• Re: Avodah V5 #22
• Re: Arami Oved Avi
• R. Yossi Sarid
• Re: Arami Oved Avi
• Re: Fw: Ruchani Eye on Rabbi Ovadaih Yosef, shlita
• RW attitudes towards Goyim
• Chamushim Alu...
• Re: Avodah V5 #22
• Re: Tal Commission
• Israeli Briskers (was Tal Commission0
• Chush-Limudei Hashem
• Re: Chilul HaShem

On Fri, Apr 14, 2000 at 11:08:51PM -0400, DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:
: I've never understood that anyone has permission to "coin" halachah. If 
: halacha isn't received, then what it is?

Pardon my question, but if you don't think new halachos should be coined, then
what would you call the following decisions:
1- Permitting shaving with an electric razor? (As well as those who prohibit.)
2- Prohibition against use of electricity on Shabbos?
3- Permitting general religious education for girls?

In all these cases it was shown that the current situation is novel enough to
require a new ruling. (Obvious in the first two, less so in the third.) That
new ruling was made using pre-existing principles, but it's still a new
application of those principles.

In that sense, of course new halachos are coined.

And R' Ovadia Yosef is one of the leading people do so alive today.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 12-Apr-00: Revi'i, Metzora
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 23b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 25

--- Aaron Berger <devaar@earthlink.net> wrote:
 
> Why is this chillul Hashem? Are we so pretentious
> (naive) as to think that
> people who see a yarmulke on our heads assume that
> we represent g-d's pro
> double parking policy? Why can't we be normal people
> with an urge to get
> away with double parking like any goy (sheketz)? If
> NYers double park and we
> do it alomg with them, we're not worse, rather we're
> "meurav im haBrios"

I really get upset... I HATE IT... when someone double
parks.  Those idiots! How dare they block my right of
way.

I only like it when I do it.  

Of course when I do it... it is totally appropriate. 
How DARE anyone critisize me! What does anyone know of
my personal needs at any given moment so as to
critisize?

HM

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Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 00:30:47 -0400
From: sambo@charm.net
Subject: Re: Rice for Pesach

<< R' Yizhak Abadi paskens that in the States, packaged rice does not 
> have to be checked, as the companies (he gives Carolina and Uncle Ben's

> as examples) spend millions of dollars on equipment specifically 
> intended to make sure there is nothing but rice in that bag or box, and
do a 
> far more thorough job than we could.>>

	AKA   "rice hacompanies"  as in cholov hacompanies?

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

>R' Yizhak Abadi paskens that in the States, packaged rice does not have
>to be checked, as the companies (he gives Carolina and Uncle Ben's as
>examples)

OK, so it doesn't have to have a hechsher.  Does that means it is also OK
for Pesach for Sefardi?

If so, can that logic be extended to "quinoa" for Ashekanim?  (Quinoa is a
sesame-sized grain that's kinda like a cross between rice and grits and is
generally not considered kitniyos (see
<http://kashrut.com/Passover/quinoa/>)).  I think I can find quinoa with a
OU hechsher, would that also be permissible for Pesach (for those who hold
that it is not kitniyos)?

-- Eric

A couple of weeks ago, I noted four aspects to the mitzvah of matzah:
1- The matzah of avdus, of "[Ki]Ha lachma anya" eaten in mitzrayim
2- That of the other kind of "lechem oni" -- she'onim alav divarim harbei. As
   per "... vilo yir'eh licha chameitz vilo yir'eh lichah se'or bichol
   gevulechah. Vihigadta livincha bayom hahu leimor..."
3- The matzah of the night of ge'ulah itself -- "al motzos umroririm yochluhu",
   "chok olam lidoroseichem".
4- The matzah made when they left bizrizus -"vayei'ofu es habatzik ki lo
   hichmitz".

So, thinking about the fact that there are FOUR of these, I started drawing
the obvious connection.

1- The first kos yayin is filled before kadeish. The steps we do before filling
   the next kos (aside from kiddush required matir drinking a first cup of
   wine) are urchartz, karpas and yachatz -- all of which convey poverty and
   avdus. For that matter "Ha lachma anya" is said before filling the second
   kos.
2- The second kos is out for all of maggid. It too is "onim alav divarim
   harbei".
3- The third cup covers motzi through bareich. The korban peisach, as
   commemorated by the other 2/3rd of the meal, the meal itself, and afikoman.
   It is drunk "al motzos umroririm".
4- The last cup is before us while we sing Hashem's praises. It's a kos of
   pure ge'ulah, similar to the fourth explanation I offered for matzah.

Also note the progression across the kosos that fits "maschilim bignus
umsaymim bishevach".

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 12-Apr-00: Revi'i, Metzora
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 23b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 25

Akvia Atwood wrote:

<<<
Within a generation, halachically we *will* lose 80% due to intermarriage --
and there is no question of tolerance/intolerance there.
>>>

Whether we will or won't lose them is not independent of our
conduct toward them.  Can you honestly say that the conduct and
speech of the hareidim toward the hilonim is calculated to draw them
closer to us?  The whole shita of hisbodidus against which the Dor
Revi'i was arguing is an attitude that drives them away from us.  Why
should the warmest, most embracing, most loving religious figure that
most Israelis are ever likely to encounter in their lives be the Bishop
of Rome?  Gevalt.
 
<<<
> though someone
> less tolerant than I might misconstrue your words.  (And by
> the way, would it
> shock you to know that I personally don't believe that the
> midrash about the 80 percent is historically accurate?

Ignoring the *historical* side of the midrash -- the important thing is that
it was considered acceptable *hashkafically* to wipe out 80% of the Jews,
not because they were *evil* but because they had *assimilated*.
>>>

The hashkafic implications of the midrash would require a serious analysis, 
which, I admit, I have not as yet undertaken.  I think that there are other
midrashim that I would rather hang my hashkafic hat on.

<<<
> I mean if the Ribbono shel Olam were
> throwing out the bad apples, how could
> He have missed Datan and Aviram?

How could He have allowed the Serpent to entice Chava?
>>>

I am sorely tempted to reply to this question, but I am resisting
that temptation.

David Glasner
dglasner@ftc.gov

On Fri, Apr 14, 2000 at 10:02:59AM -0400, Markowitz, Chaim wrote:
: 	I thought the teretz might be that in actuality the ikkur sippur
: doesn't start till arami oved avi. Everything is else is just a hakdamah and
: is theer for various reasons (maschil b'genus etc.) Therefore, the chiyuv of
: kol hamarbeh applies esp. to arami oved avi.

We know that there is a requirement for Sippur Yetzias Mitzrayim (SYM) that
"maschilim bignus umesaymim bishevach". Shemuel holds this refers to "Avodim
hayinu" and Rav hold it is "Bitchilah ovdei avodah zarah". It would seem
that Rav and Shemuel do NOT consider "Arami oveid avi" to be the ikkar mitzvah.

BTW, I noticed a couple of years ago that Rav and Shemuel are lishitasam.
Rav also holds a very lima'alah min hateva view of the future ge'ulah, whereas
Shemuel said "ein bein olam hazeh liymos hamoshiach ela shib'ud malchios
bilvad". It would seem to be a fundamental hashkafic difference about ge'ulah.

Similarly, we can rule out R' Gamliel, who understands the mitzvah as being
tied to the mitzvos ma'asiyos of the evening, and therefore is minimally about
explaining the ta'amim of these hamitzvos.

R' Chaim Brisker offers three distinctions between the mitzvah of SYM
for leil Pesach and that of zechirah that we are constantly required to do.
1- The obligation to tell others (including the question and answer format
   necessary even if r"l alone);
2- The chiyuv to relate the chain of events;
3- There are mitzvos ma'asiyos related to SYM.

R' Avraham Pam uses this answer to provide structure to Maggid. (It is a
*seder*, after all). He explains that there are four parts:
1- Introduction: Mah nishtanah and Shemu'el's Haggadah (Avadim hayinu) through
   to R' Elazar ben Azaryah's discussion of the mitzvah of zechiras yetzias
   mitzrayim for the whole year.
2- A discussion of the mitzvah lisapeir: the four sons
3- The chain of events: Rav's haGaddah (Mitchilah), Aramei oveid, etc..
4- Rabban Gamliel omer: discussing the mitzvos ma'asiyos
5- Conclusion: first part of Hallel
   
I would humbly suggest that the same division gives an introduction, a portion
to be focus on the essentials according to each of the three tanaim, and
a conclusion.

Note that this identifies the focus on doing the mitzvah with Shemu'el's
haggadah. Which fits my chidush that Shemu'el, lishitaso, focuses on man
redeeming himself. Rav's definition of genus and shevach, OTOH, form the
start of a long telling of how Hashem was go'eil us.


However, the whole topic is enigmatic. Arami oveid avi is also the text for
vidui bikkurim. Perhaps if we understood how this text qualifies as a "vidui"
(either in the sense of confession or of hoda'ah) and its connection to
bikkurim, we'd understand the role here too.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 12-Apr-00: Revi'i, Metzora
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 23b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 25

> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 16:33:08 +0200
> From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
> Subject: Re: Interesting to note!
> 
> On 17 Apr 00, at 9:06, Gershon Dubin wrote:
> 
> > Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 02:54:14 +1000
> > From: SBA <sba@blaze.net.au>
> > Subject: Interesting to note!
> > 
> > <<.Rav Yosi Sarid, who is...not identical with the politician with the
> > same
> >  name. I wonder if anyone is interested in sharing with him...
> > 
> > The first half of that Posuk is Zecher Tzaddik L'vrocho. Maybe the Rav
> > qualifies?>>
> > 
> >  Not yet,  B"H.   BTW his yeshiva is called Kollel Meretz,  but I
> >  forgot
> > what it stands for.
> 
> IIRC the Rav you are talking about is the Rav M'komi of Mevasseret.
> 
> Chag Kasher v'Sameyach!

My older son learned at Yeshiva Sharei Mevaseret Tzion during the 
beginning of the piece processs.  The shared a campus with the Meretz 
Kolel and had joint chavrusas.   They attended numerous hafganot against 
the piece process together with the mertz Kolel boys.

>We know that there is a requirement for Sippur Yetzias 
Mitzrayim (SYM) that "maschilim bignus umesaymim 
bishevach". Shemuel holds this refers to "Avodim
hayinu" and Rav hold it is "Bitchilah ovdei avodah 
zarah". It would seem that Rav and Shemuel do NOT 
consider "Arami oveid avi" to be the ikkar mitzvah.<<<

The very next line in the Mishna (116) after maschil
b'gnus u'mesayem b'shevach refers to being doresh the
parsha of arami oved avi.  I do not see how you derive
from Rav or Shmuel what the ikkar miztva is - they are
merely explaining one aspect of the Mishna.

Also, although the more popular pshat is that R'
Gamliel is defining the parameters of sippur; however, 
others learn that he is defining the kiyumim of matzah
and maror - i.e. kol shlo amar...lo yatzah refers to 
not being yotzei matzah, maror, and korban Pesach, not 
to a lack of kiyum of sippur yetziyat mitzrayim.

-Chaim B.

In a message dated 4/17/00 1:05:53 PM US Central Standard Time, 
micha@aishdas.org writes:

<< Pardon my question, but if you don't think new halachos should be coined, 
then
 what would you call the following decisions:
 1- Permitting shaving with an electric razor? (As well as those who 
prohibit.)
 2- Prohibition against use of electricity on Shabbos?
 3- Permitting general religious education for girls?
 
 In all these cases it was shown that the current situation is novel enough to
 require a new ruling. (Obvious in the first two, less so in the third.) That
 new ruling was made using pre-existing principles, but it's still a new
 application of those principles.
 
 In that sense, of course new halachos are coined. >>

In that sense, *all* halachos are coined unless absolutely literally 
Scriptural, including everything we have on kashruth beyond a kid in its 
mother's milk. Such "coinage," however, would destroy even the roughest 
distinctions between peshat and derash, daraisa and rabbonim, legislation and 
interpretation, etc, to say nothing of Moishe mi'Sinai.

Modern applications of ancient halacha are not really coined. They're decided 
judicially and spiritually, usually through some form of analogue. Some 
modern rules are more rational than others, some more reflective of community 
custom and habit. Some make no sense at all. Your point, if I understand it, 
is, So what? By honoring these applications despite our occasional 
disagreement with them, we honor the limits of our logic and ego and submit 
ourselves to a finer guide. 

I agree. But there's a difference between using a Norelco instead of a 
Gillette, or turning the lights off as well putting away the matches, one the 
one hand, and obeying a Gadol's order to engage in Jihad against fellow Jews 
on the other. A pronouncement does not halacha make. If we know a Gadol to be 
temperamental, and when we know he's gotten himself caught up in his 
temperament (at the urging of his more venal supporters, and in the 
inevitable presence of the news media), why can't we just discount what he 
says?

David Finch    

I was a talmid in a RW Yeshiva. I often heard my
Rabbeim reffering to the Goyim as Shkotzim and/or
Menuvalim. Phrases like Eisov Soneh es Yaakov were
frequently used bash all Goyim with a broad
brushstroke. When a Goy died he didn't just die... he
pagered... like an animal. This was an attitiude which
was ibnstilled in all the bachurim that came into
contact with just about any given Rebbe.  The values
held high Bain Adam LeChavero never apply to Goyim.
The attitude is...  We just have to be careful not to
set them all off but they are always anti-semites. I
remember one particular student who just refused to do
an english assignment because he felt it was just too
much bittul Torah. These teachers were often made fun
of both behind their backs and to their faces...
sometimes visciously.

A word about the descripitve scenario's mentioned in
my original post. I have been confidentially edified
by a RW Yeshiva General Studies principal as to the
type of behavior displayed towards the Goyishe
Teachers.  The attitudes expressed by these students
are exactly as I related. I was not exaggerating.  The
Roshei Yeshiva were finally called in to help change
some of the Chutzpah being displayed towards those
teachers.

Incidently these were all "fine" Bachurim from fine
homes who displayed the kind of Midos Tovos that one
would expect from students of this type.  They had an
almost holy reverence for the Roshei HaYeshiva and
Rabbeim. But... when it came to the Shkotzim 
VeRamoshim known as "the english teachers"... this
"fine" behavior disappeared. 

Had they been educated differently regarding how to
interact with Goyim,  they could have made a Kiddush
HaShem intead of the Chilul HaShem they did make. But
instead the Rabbeim were too interested in making
Rishoim out of Goyim.

BTW, a Shiksa, or should I say Behaima, gave up her
life to save my father and his sons (my older
brothers) during the Holocaust (That would be "Churban
Europe" to you  Aaron in case you don't know of the
more secular description of those events).  When she
was discovered hiding and feeding them she was
immediately shot. My father and brothers escaped. 
(I'm sure she was Mechuyiv Misa anyway.) 

I love you, too, Aaron.

Don't ever change.

HM

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<<80% of the Jews were killed in mitzrayim>>


If this were literal its absence in the Biblical narrative would qualify as 
more than a little curious.

The Midrash actually says that 1 in 5 left and the rest were killed during 
Makat Choshech. Ample Biblical references are provided. Yet the issue is 
debated: "Some say (yesh omrim) 1 in 50 (left Egypt and the rest died during 
the plague of darkness), some say 1 in 500, and Rabbi Nehorai says, "By the 
divine service! not one in 5000 left!".

600,00 + (approximately) 140,000 = 2,000,000 x 5,000 = 10,000,000,000.

Do you take this Midrash literally?

Chag Sameach,

Moshe

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In a message dated 4/17/00 2:23:10 PM Central Daylight Time, 
owner-avodah@aishdas.org writes:

<< From: Gil.Student@citicorp.com
 Subject: Re: Tal Commission
 
 RH Maryles wrote:
 
 We all know that the American Briskers are considered by themselves and by 
 Israelis to be modern Orthodox and <gasp> Zionists.   >>

Is that modern Orthodox, as in the "refusnik" mode, or as in Mizrachi LW, or 
just Orthodox Jews who are living in "modern" times. Please clarify and 
define, Reb Harry!
Barry Schwarz

>>My guess would be R. Avraham and R. Yehoshua Soloveitchik.>>

Sorry. R. Avraham Yehoshua and R. Berel Soloveitchik.  I don't know what I was 
thinking.
     
Gil Student
gil.student@citicorp.com

Carl M. Sherer wrote      Subject: Re: Tal Commission

> IIRC, when the kvoros thing was going on
>here a couple of years ago ..... it was the Brisker Roshei Yeshiva who
>opposed the compromise worked out by Rav Elyashiv.

AFAIK the Brisker Rabbonim/Roshei Yeshivos in Israel
are to the right of the Edah HaCharedis.

SBA

From Shlomo B Abeles

I am sharing this inspiring article posted in an email  list by a
non-Jewish source.

For those who don't know, the institution Chush - also known as Limudei
Hashem -
is a heimishe/chasidishe school in Williamsburg for learning disabled
children.

>=====================================
>Achieving God's Perfection  (author unknown)
>=====================================
In Brooklyn, New York, Chush is a school that caters to
learning-disabled children.  Some children remain in Chush 
for their entire school career,

while others can be mainstreamed into conventional schools.
At a Chush fundraising dinner, the father of a Chush child delivered a
speech that would never be forgotten by all who attended.

After extolling the school and its dedicated staff, he cried
out, "Where is the perfection in my son Shaya?
Everything G-d does is done with perfection.  But my child cannot
understand things as other children do.  My child cannot remember
facts and figures as other children do.  Where is G-d's perfection?"

The audience was shocked by the question, pained by the father's anguish
and stilled by the piercing query.

"I believe," the father answered, "that when G-d brings a
 child likethis into the world, the perfection that He seeks 
is in the way people react to this child."

He then told the following story about his son Shaya:

One afternoon Shaya and his father walked past a park where
some boys Shaya knew were playing baseball.
haya asked, "Do you think they will let me play?"

Shaya's father knew that his son was not at all athletic
 and that most boys would not want him on their team.  
But Shaya's father understood that if his
son was chosen to play it would give him a comfortable 
sense of belonging.

Shaya's father approached one of the boys in the field and asked if
Shaya could play.  The boy looked around for guidance from his
teammates.
Getting none, he took matters into his own hands and said, "We are
losing by six runs and the game is in the eighth inning.  

I guess he can be on our team and we'll try to 
put him up to bat in the ninth inning."

Shaya's father was ecstatic as Shaya smiled broadly. 
Shaya was told to put on a glove and go out to play 
short center field.  In the bottom of the eighth
inning, Shaya's team scored a few runs but was still behind by three.
In the bottom of the ninth inning, Shaya's team scored again and now
with two outs and the bases loaded with the potential winning run on
base, Shaya was scheduled to be up. Would the team actually let Shaya
bat at
this juncture and give away their chance to win the game?

Surprisingly, Shaya was given the bat.  Everyone knew that it was all
but impossible because Shaya didn't even know how to hold the bat
properly, let alone hit with it.

 However, as Shaya stepped up to the plate, the pitcher moved a few
steps to lob the ball in softly so Shaya should at least be able to make
contact.  The first pitch came in and Shaya swung clumsily and missed.  
One of Shaya's teammates came up to Shaya and together they held the
bat and faced the pitcher waiting for the next pitch. 
The pitcher again took a few steps
forward to toss the ball softly toward Shaya.

As the pitch came in, Shaya and his teammate swung the bat and together
they hit a slow ground ball to the pitcher.  The pitcher picked up the
soft
grounder and could easily have thrown the ball to the first baseman.
Shaya would have been out and that would have ended the game.
Instead, the pitcher took the ball and threw it on a high arc to right
field, far beyond reach of the first baseman.

Everyone started yelling, "Shaya, run to first.  Run to first!"

Never in his life had Shaya run to first.  He scampered down the
baseline wide eyed and startled.  By the time he reached
first base, the right fielder had the ball. He could have thrown 
the ball to the second baseman who would tag out Shaya,
who was still running.  But the right fielder understood what the
pitcher's intentions were, so he threw the ball high and
far over the third baseman's head.

Everyone yelled, "Run to second, run to second."  Shaya ran towards
second base as the runners ahead of him deliriously
circled the bases towards home.

As Shaya reached second base, the opposing short stop ran to him, turned
him in the direction of third base and shouted, "Run to third.  "As
Shaya
rounded third, the boys from both teams ran behind him screaming, "Shaya
run
home!" 

Shaya ran home, stepped on home plate and all 18 boys lifted him on
their shoulders and made him the hero, as he had just hit a "grand slam"
and won the game for his team.

That day," said the father softly with tears now rolling down his face,
"those 18 boys reached their level of G-d's perfection."

On Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 12:20:08AM -0700, Aaron Berger wrote:
: Why is this chillul Hashem? Are we so pretentious (naive) as to think that
: people who see a yarmulke on our heads assume that we represent g-d's pro
: double parking policy?

Do you really think people *don't* put us in that role?

I am sure a good fraction of non-frum Jewry excuse their lacks in bein adam
lachaveiro by pointing out our lacks in bein adam lachaveiro. After all,
with the false dichotomy of choosing between being frum or being a mentch,
isn't it better to choose the latter? (If they thought along these lines,
wouldn't you hear "derech eretz kadmah laTorah"?)

Second, how can double parking be any less "dirty" than dirt on one's
jacket? And yes, to the hamon am, anyone with a yarmulka seems to be a
"talmid chacham". (Just as anyone with a hat and beard will get called
"Rabbi" by many outsiders.) We are mechuyavim to assume people judge G-d
by our actions and appearance.

Lurking out there somewhere is Mr. Moris Ayin, that constant violator of
privacy and of dan likaf zechus...

:                                                  If NYers double park and we
: do it alomg with them, we're not worse, rather we're "meurav im haBrios"

Logically, yes. Is that how people will judge us? No.

The incidence of tax evasion is no greater in our community than any other,
and of abuse and rape far lower. Somehow we don't see that in the way we're
presented in the media.

:                                     While I agree that for a yid to hold
: himself to an even higher standard than an average society member is noble -
: that is EXACTLY what it is --> noble.

Whether or not we hold ourselves to a higher standard, we are judged by one.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 12-Apr-00: Revi'i, Metzora
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 23b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 25

********************


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