Avodah Mailing List

Volume 05 : Number 016

Thursday, April 13 2000

• Introduction
• Children in Distress / Moridim Kippah
• so called golus mentality
• Rav Dessler's Shita on Chinuch
• Re: RYBS criticising secular Israeli leadership
• Re: Rav Dessler's Shita on Chinuch
• Re: The "Children at Risk" issues of the Jewish Observer
• Re: The "Children at Risk" issues of the Jewish Observer
• Re: The "Children at Risk" issues of the Jewish Observer
• ROY and RSL
• Re: The "Children at Risk" issues of the Jewish Observer
• sefardim and ashkenazim
• RSG
• Rav Dessler and the current situation
• Re: Rav Dessler and the current situation

I (Yehuda) am a religious jouralist and pr professional living in Ramat
Beit Shemesh.  Rebecca is a content editor.  We have two children, Yaakov
(almost 6) and Naftali (2).
Among other things, I moderate the cholim list on Project Genesis
(cholim@torah.org)
THe list is posted as a composite once a week, usually on Wednesdays.
Deadline for posting is 12:00 noon Israel time on Wednesday.  All names are
removed every ROsh Chodesh and must be updated by the following Wednesday
in order to remain on the list.
For those who must R'L post names, now you know where.

 
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   \ o \||/ o /       Chag Kasher Vesameach        \ o \||/ o /
    \ ^ || ^ /       Yehuda and Rebecca Poch	    \ ^ || ^ /
     >--||--<       Ramat Beit Shemesh, Israel	     >--||--<
    / v || v \         butrfly@actcom.co.il	    / v || v \
   /___/  \___\  				   /___/  \___\

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Arnie Lustiger writes:

>P.S. It is very important to note that the "moridim Kippa" phenomenon among
>the Israeli Modern Orthodox , a phenomenon that I understand afflicts 5-10%
>of religious Zionist homes, clearly cannot be included in this rubric -
>professional careers and study are encouraged in Israel. In America, Modern
>Orthodox parents have more often glorified professional careers at the
>expense of striving to be a gadol baTorah.

I disagree.
With all due respect to JO's articles, and I believe that the issue is one
that every Jew must pay a great deal of attention, I believe that the two
trends have the same root.
Many Jewish teens are not getting adequate answers to their questions
(questions that all teens have) about identity, purpose, guidance, etc.
This is true in the yeshiva velt, and it is true in the Modern Orthodox
world as well.  It is true in Torah areas and in general social areas.
For the JO articles, there are two trends, not one.  One is that these
teens are dropping out, and the other is that they are turning to drugs and
promiscuity instead.  There are two reasons.  One is that they are not
satisfied with the education they are getting and the other is that they
are not satisfied with the social guidance they are getting.
These trends are closely related, but do not necessarily coincide.  Many
drop out of religion and do not turn to drugs, etc.
In the modern orthodox world, the same is true, for the same reasons.

One cause of this tragedy is that many teachers in the yeshiva world are
simply NOT trained educators.  This has its root in the philosophy of R'
Dessler, I believe, which states that learning Torah is paramount and that
acquiring a profession, even a teaching degree from a frum seminary, is not
advisable.  So the result is that rather than having trained teachers
teaching, we have scholars and students teaching.  They are untrained for
the tough thoughtful questions posed by teens since they (indicated by
their survival of the system) did not deal with the same questions.
By training teachers, with an emphasis on expecting and dealing with
identity questions, the trend can be stopped and even reversed.

The same is true of the moridim kipah trend in Israel.  These teens are not
well-prepared or well-equipped for the identity questions they will face in
the IDF.  This is due to a lack of preparedness on the part of educators
(and parents) in the elementary and high school years.  As a result, they
are joined with secular soldiers who taunt them, ask them why they do this
or that, and they have no answers: for the other soldiers or for
themselves.  They recognize the logical quandary and agree that it is
without basis.  They drop the kippah, and come out of the IDF with lower
motivation, lower self-esteem, and less religion.

In MO circles, most people do receive vocational or professional training.
Especially teachers.  But the insistence of the MO to build their yeshivos
along the models of the haredi yeshivos of old (even if the hashkafa is
different, the model is the same) eventually leads to the same responses or
lack of them to the same identity questions.  Even with professional
teacher training, MO teachers are geared to teach rather than to guide, to
answer questions of pshat and drash rather than identity, and to master
their students rather than befriend them.

It is the same problem in both segments of the community (and in the MO
circles outside of Israel and the haredi ones here as well) and has the
same results.

 
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   ____ \/ ____					   ____ \/ ____
   \ o \||/ o /       Chag Kasher Vesameach        \ o \||/ o /
    \ ^ || ^ /       Yehuda and Rebecca Poch	    \ ^ || ^ /
     >--||--<       Ramat Beit Shemesh, Israel	     >--||--<
    / v || v \         butrfly@actcom.co.il	    / v || v \
   /___/  \___\  				   /___/  \___\

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I despise reading politics on this list but I am going
to write anyway.

I would simply like to point out that doing the
reverse of the examples listed, simply because you
don't want to have a golus mentality, means that you
also have a golus mentality.  

now you can argue that your way is better for security
and they can argue that their way is better for
security.  but then you would be argueing the real
issues and not who is the true israeli and who is the
ghetto jew.
__________________________________________________
Firstly, there is a HUGE galus mentality among the
leadership in Israel, both secular and religious, and
even "haredi".  On the part of the political
leadership, including the religious segment, it takes
the form of bowing to external political pressure to
give up strategic assets, whether they be land, water,
natural resources, or political aces. etc etc...

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites.
http://invites.yahoo.com

I would like to respectfully disagree with Arnie's conclusion that RW chinuch 
is the cause of the drop out problem. The reason being, contrary to popular 
belief, the RW chinuch is NOT Desslerian in nature. The large majority of 
non-chasidic RW yeshivot offer a full high school curriculum. Some like the 
Philadelphia yeshiva (where I think Arnie learned) take these studies very 
seriously, and even offer courses such as French etc.. They also usually have 
a Gym where students play Basketball. All this is unheard of in Israel. In 
Europe and in R. Dessler's ideology, High school is no less "Assur" then 
College. All the problems the Rabbanim scream against college apply to HS as 
well. It is no less Bitul Torah in their view to spend 4 hours daily learning 
secular studies when you are 15-16 years old then when you are 19-20 years 
old. So the RW yeshivot are very far from being R. Desslers way. 

In my opinion part of the reason for the drop out problem is due to this very 
hypocrisy. The yeshivot claim to be following R. Dessler's way and preach 
Torah only, while simultaneously offering secular studies. This leads to a 
"bitul" of the secular study they do learn, and sends the child mixed 
messages. If they would be "pure" Torah only, or pure TIDE I think they would 
be better of then preaching one way and doing another.

On 13 Apr 00, at 5:10, andrew abelesz wrote:

> What is disappointing is that ROY is the only one we have heard from.
> Where are all the other Gedolim - from all sectors of religious Jewry?
> Aren't they just as concerned as ROY at what Sarid is trying to do?

In all fairness, ROY is the only one of the Gedolim who is clearly in 
control of a political party. That political party is the one that is 
most directly affected, because it is Meshulam Nahari of Shas who 
is Sarid's "assistant" and who, under the coalition agreement, is 
supposed to be in control of Charedi education. It is also a 
substantial party in terms of number of MK's (17).

UTJ (Aguda and Degel) is no longer in the coalition, and has 
nowhere near the clout in terms of numbers of MK's that Shas has. 
I suspect that if members of one of their moatzos made a 
statement, it would likely be interpreted in the press as an attempt 
to steal the thunder from ROY.

Mafdal doesn't have the concept of Daas Torah ingrained the way 
the Charedi parties do, and it is doubtful that statements by Rav 
Shapira or Rav Eliyahu would have anywhere near the impact that 
ROY's statements have. There is a lot of internal debate in Mafdal 
over whether they should be like the Charedi parties and do what 
their Rabbonim tell them to do. That debate would likely be 
exacerbated if Rav Shapira or Rav Eliyahu came out against Sarid 
the way ROY did. Mafdal's schools are also not under attack - after 
all, they have secular studies. In any event, they too have a smaller 
number of MK's.

As others have noted, ROY has gotten a lot of support from both 
Chassidishe and Mafdal circles. The Ashkenazi Gedolim, with the 
exception of Rav Schach shlita, who is not well, seem to have a 
policy of not getting involved in anything that is related to politics.

Any or all of the above could explain the seeming silence from 
other quarters. I have no doubt, however, that all of the Gedolim, 
across the board, support ROY. Let's see what happens if they 
actually try to charge him R"L. I think you will see a demonstration 
that will make last year's demonstration against the Supreme Court 
seem like a playground picnic.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 13 Apr 00, at 6:32, Tobrr111@aol.com wrote:

> I would like to respectfully disagree with Arnie's conclusion that RW chinuch 
> is the cause of the drop out problem. The reason being, contrary to popular 
> belief, the RW chinuch is NOT Desslerian in nature. 

I kind of thought that was true in the States. In Israel, much of RW 
chinuch really is Desslerian in nature, and I understand from others 
that is true in England as well.

The large majority of 
> non-chasidic RW yeshivot offer a full high school curriculum. Some like the 
> Philadelphia yeshiva (where I think Arnie learned) take these studies very 
> seriously, and even offer courses such as French etc.. They also usually have 
> a Gym where students play Basketball. All this is unheard of in Israel. 

I'll go a step further. In many Yeshiva Ktana's in Israel, kids need 
special dispensation to have permission to ride a bike to school, 
and even then they are told to park it several blocks away. When 
you consider that most Yeshiva Ktana kids are picked up for 
school by 6:30 or 7:00 A.M. and return home at 9:30 or 10:00 at 
night, they likely don't get any exercise at all except during Bein 
haZmanim.

In 
> Europe and in R. Dessler's ideology, High school is no less "Assur" then 
> College. All the problems the Rabbanim scream against college apply to HS as 
> well. It is no less Bitul Torah in their view to spend 4 hours daily learning 
> secular studies when you are 15-16 years old then when you are 19-20 years 
> old. So the RW yeshivot are very far from being R. Desslers way.

All very true. With all the discussions we have had on this list in 
the past about Maarava, it is modeled largely on Chafetz Chaim in 
Forest Hills and the Philadelphia Yeshiva. Many of the same 
people in the US on this list who have been so impressed with my 
descriptions of Maarava are now railing on this list against the 
"Desslerian" philosophy of the RW Yeshivas in the States. 
Something is inconsistent here....

> In my opinion part of the reason for the drop out problem is due to this very 
> hypocrisy. The yeshivot claim to be following R. Dessler's way and preach 
> Torah only, while simultaneously offering secular studies. This leads to a 
> "bitul" of the secular study they do learn, and sends the child mixed 
> messages. If they would be "pure" Torah only, or pure TIDE I think they would 
> be better of then preaching one way and doing another.
> 

I think that for most kids, if they are going to become dropouts, the 
seeds are planted long before they get to high school. That has 
certainly been the case with all of the dropouts I know.

Where the mixed message causes problems (IMHO) is that it 
causes the kids to lack respect for the limudei chol teachers, 
which leads them to resist authority on a more general basis. But I 
don't think that kids are dropping out because of the mixed 
message. I think the seeds of dropping out are planted when they 
are much younger.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

My younger (and only) brother dropped out of fruhm society (married a Jewish
woman B"H, but he is not at all fruhm today). I am posting this anonymously
in the hope that if any of you recognize your own homes in this post, you
can wake up and do something about it before it is too late.

We grew up in an MO home with a lot of stress on academics and little stress
on Torah learning. It is perhaps indicative of the (lack of) guidance we
received that while my brother went off the derech, I went the other way,
and I would describe myself today as much fruhmmer than my parents are. My
father grew up in a traditional American Orthodox home in the 1930's. His
grandfather learned in one of the great Yeshivos in Europe (something I did
not know until years later), but my father did not grow up in a home that
was medakdek b'mitzvos. My mother's father was from the crowd that threw
their Tfillin overboard in the harbor off the US coastline. My mother had no
formal Jewish education as a child. My parents ended up in an Orthodox shul
because my father found the Conservative one too churchlike. My brother and I
ended up in a fruhm school, because it was known for its top notch academics.
Over the years, my father became more fruhm. My mother learned to go through
the motions.

My father wanted us to be fruhm, and my mother sort of went along with that
(albeit not unequivocably). That fact alone makes it not surprising that
my brother left fruhmkeit. Yet my brother also went through the motions
for a long time, and I think that if he had been handled properly, he
could have ended up fruhm. He did not wake up one morning and decide not
to be fruhm. He did not stop being fruhm because he was seeking something
else to replace a void in his life. He has described a "going through the
motions" phenomenon in his own fruhmkeit, and how he stopped keeping Torah
and mitzvos when he felt he could not live with that hypocrisy anymore. He
did not leave fruhmkeit for something else. He left fruhmkeit because no
one ever showed him the point in it (we were too close in age for me to be
any kind of mentor for him). He equated fruhmkeit with his older brother
(me), with whom he had a vehement sibling rivalry, for which he largely
blames our parents today. But the school did not help that sibling rivalry
with its constant comparisons of our academic performances (mine was good,
his was poor). If there had been another Jewish school that he could have
attended that might have helped. On the other hand, it may not have helped.

My brother and I were very different even as children, and the fact that he
spent three years in public elementary school (Grades 4-6) may have had a
lot to do with where he ended up. You could see risk factors in him by second
grade (no exaggeration), and by the time he was 11 or 12 (I was 13 and 14 at
the time), I felt he was just going to shul to keep our father happy. One of
the things that he said when he finally confronted my parents and said that
he would no longer be fruhm, was that he had not made a bracha on putting on
Tfillin since shortly after his Bar Mitzva. He said that it meant nothing
to him. By the time my brother confronted my parents, he was 21 and still
living in their house. He was also dating a shiksa, which she eventually
broke off when she realized my father would never accept her. Yet I still
regard the fact that he married a Jewish woman as a Chesed from Hashem,
and not any indication of his acceptance of my father's attitude.

What might have helped with him? Hard to say. He admits today that his
*academic* performance (which was where his problems started) might have been
helped if the TV set was taken away from him (especially the one he bought
with his Bar Mitzva money, but he generally watched way too much TV even as
a first and second grader). We grew up in a house that had no rules and no
structure, which is something we have both tried to correct in our married
lives. Making kids toe the line at 13-14 is too late, in my opinion anyway. If
you don't have rules that you enforce consistently when your kids are 4,
5 and 6, there's nothing you can do to discipline them when they are teenagers.

My parents always took the attitude that our academic problems in school were
the teachers' problems. My brother was a poor student in his Hebrew studies
by second or third grade, but instead of trying to help him (or seeking
an older tutor), my parents consistently blamed the teacher. Not that the
teachers were entirely blameless. My brother remembers vividly to this day
how a third grade English teacher embarassed him in front of the entire
class. But my parents were way too quick to blame the teachers whenever
something went wrong. I was a good student, but it amazes me in retrospect
that when I was having trouble in a class in 11th grade (a secular class
that I wanted to drop), my parents went to a PTA and said to the teacher,
"he says that you have been kicking him out of class. What is wrong with
you?" What was wrong with that (admittedly poor) teacher was that I was
consistently disturbing his class. One thing I try to be careful about as a
result is that when my kids come home and say something that sounds totally
ridiculous in the name of a teacher, I always try to be melamed zchus on
the teacher and say that the child misunderstood.

There's a lot more that I could say about this subject. Reflecting on my
brother makes me realize that this is not a new phenomenon - I have teenage
children today. I think that what is new is the extent to which kids are
dropping out of society altogether, and not just out of fruhm society. Most
of the answers I could propose for that problem would keep our children in
society, but would not keep them fruhm.

On Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 07:10:37PM +0200, Carl M. Sherer wrote:
: The numbers are much higher than that. A survey done in Israel ten 
: years ago showed that one student in five in Yeshiva 
: Tichonit/Ulpana would become not fruhm after graduation. If 
: anything, the numbers now are only worse.

Yes, there's a real problem.

However, as I said last time you quoted this statistic, the number you give
is not that meaningful. It sounds like you're saying 20% of those raised
DL leave Orthodoxy. However, what the numbers really say is that 20% of those
in a DL school, including those who are not from observant homes, do so.
Without knowing what fraction of those 20% were ever Orthodox (and how would
one define that?), I don't know what to make of the number.

: WE have a problem - not just one segment of us. 

Actually, we can all be having different problems with the same symptom. The
dynamic in the Yeshiva world seems to revolve around kids who do not thrive
as students, and therefore don't see a role for themselves in the frum world.

The mod-O problem is very different. Thinking back to my American mod-O peers
who left O, the problem seems more to be an inability to convey mod-O as an
ideal, and not as a compromise. It therefore fails to inspire loyalty. Most
of the disaffected find a home in other branches of the frum community, some
choose opting out of it.

Or perhaps you can say the underlying problem is shared: we are too busy
defining ourselves in distinction to the other forms of orthodoxy; the
walls within the frum community are too high. Therefore, a kid raised in a
Yeshivish home wouldn't consider being a successful frum Jew by a definition
that doesn't include "being a tzaddik and a talmud chacham". OTOH, too many
kids who aren't happy with mod-O identifies more with C as an alternative
than the Yeshiva world.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 12-Apr-00: Revi'i, Metzora
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 23b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 25

I believe Rabbi Lamm characterized this as the need "to be more passionate
about our moderation and not moderate about our passion."


On Thu, 13 Apr 2000, Micha Berger wrote:

> The mod-O problem is very different. Thinking back to my American mod-O peers
> who left O, the problem seems more to be an inability to convey mod-O as an
> ideal, and not as a compromise. It therefore fails to inspire loyalty. Most
> of the disaffected find a home in other branches of the frum community, some
> choose opting out of it.
> 
> 
> -mi
> 
> -- 

Daniel B. Schwartz writes: "Try as one might, there is no way to totally
disasociate RSL from the Comservative Movement, and there no way to
discount his influence upon it."

	This is indeed true -- his presence served as a partial deterrent to
some of the more radical elements at JTS. (There is an apocryphal story
that in the early '60s, when the Conservative rabbis in convention
assembled wanted to be matir a grusha to a Kohen, do away with Yom Tov
Sheni, etc., Lieberman was teaching a class in Tosefta, dealing with
dagim t'meiim. He said to his class, "I don't understand the Conservative
rabbis. They worry about a grusha for a kohen.  Why don't they have
compassion on these poor fish, who never harmed anyone and were stamped
as asur?' After observing the blank looks on his student's faces, he
said, "Don't you understand? No fish was ever the president of a
Conservative temple!")

Further, he writes,"It seems that ROY was machshiv RSL to a great degree
and actively sought out dialogue with him.  I reject that ROY wasn
unaware of JTS's "true nature" (as someone has suggested) due to his
sephardic pedigree. ROY clearly must have been well aware of all the
polemic against Conservative Judaism, and yet went to JTS to meet with
RSL.  The question is what has precipitated his move to the right?"

	Harav Yosef clearly was able to distinguish between the person and his
position. The person was a talmid chacham of the first magnitude and a
shomer mitzvos in all but his occupation. While Harav Yosef would never
give a scintilla of public recognition, it did not prevent him from
meeting privately, as one private person to another. (And it was probably
due to the greater Sephardic tolerance that he saw no contradiction
between the anathema of the Conservative movement and the redeeming
feature of one of its luminaries.)  Why does this mean that there has
been a move to the right on the part of Harav Yosef? I don't doubt that
were Shaul Lieberman alive today, Harav Yosef would *still* arrange to
discuss divrei Torah with him.  All this has nothing to do, of course,
with Sarid, who has no redeeming features whatsoever, and whose stand
against religion is l'hachis, unlike Lieberman's straying, which was
exclusively l'teiavon.

On 13 Apr 00, at 7:34, Micha Berger wrote:

> However, as I said last time you quoted this statistic, the number you give
> is not that meaningful. It sounds like you're saying 20% of those raised
> DL leave Orthodoxy. However, what the numbers really say is that 20% of those
> in a DL school, including those who are not from observant homes, do so.
> Without knowing what fraction of those 20% were ever Orthodox (and how would
> one define that?), I don't know what to make of the number.

In Israel, non-observant parents would not be sending their children 
to DL schools (unless they were Sfardim sending their children to 
Shas schools). I think it's safe to assume that those 20% who 
dropped out of the DL schools came from DL homes.

> The mod-O problem is very different. Thinking back to my American mod-O peers
> who left O, the problem seems more to be an inability to convey mod-O as an
> ideal, and not as a compromise. It therefore fails to inspire loyalty. Most
> of the disaffected find a home in other branches of the frum community, some
> choose opting out of it.

I agree with you that MO has a problem presenting itself as an 
ideal and not a compromise. But I don't think you can compare an 
MO child becoming Charedi (which in its various stripes is the only 
other "branch of the fruhm community" that I know) to an MO child 
becoming not fruhm. A child of MO parents who becomes Charedi 
(or vice versa) is generally not cut off from the parents or from their 
former peers as is a child who opts out altogether. Let alone a child 
who not only drops out of fruhm society but out of society in 
general.

> Or perhaps you can say the underlying problem is shared: we are too busy
> defining ourselves in distinction to the other forms of orthodoxy; the
> walls within the frum community are too high. 

I think that is true in the larger fruhm communities; it is less true in 
smaller ("out of town") ones. I have argued on this list before that 
the barriers between RW and DL in Israel are too high. But I'm not 
sure it's those barriers that are causing our children to leave O 
altogether. I think our children who leave O R"L are doing so out of 
boredom with O's strictures and an inability to feel and appreciate 
their meaning. I don't think they're leaving MO because they feel 
too cut off from Charedim or vice versa.

Therefore, a kid raised in a
> Yeshivish home wouldn't consider being a successful frum Jew by a definition
> that doesn't include "being a tzaddik and a talmud chacham". 

I assume you're referring to the mother who wrote the anonymous 
article in the first JO. I waiver back and forth on that article a lot. 
Realisitically, the mother is likely correct that the child will never 
become a "tzaddik and talmid chacham." OTOH, I doubt telling him 
to be an "ehrlicher yid" is going to change his attitude a whole lot 
either. I'm not sure the father is wrong in that respect.

What I got out of that article more than anything else is that there 
are no guarantees. That you can cut your children off from every bit 
of "pernicious" outside influence and still R"L have them go off the 
derech. It made it kind of hard to stomach some of the railing 
against TV sets that went on in subsequent articles in the JO. As if 
throwing out all the TV sets is a cure all. Yes, TV can be a lousy 
influence, but I suspect that where it is a bad influence that's a 
result of how it's used and not a result of its very presence in the 
home. Not having a TV is clearly not a guarantee that your kids 
won't go off the derech R"L. (I would love to see a survey of the 
percentage of kids who go off the derech in homes that do and do 
not have TV sets. If that is the only factor considered I suspect 
strongly that - at least in my generation and maybe even in this 
one - the difference would not be statistically significant). 

OTOH, too many
> kids who aren't happy with mod-O identifies more with C as an alternative
> than the Yeshiva world.

I don't see a lot of MO kids going off and becoming C. I see C and 
R both as dying (other than converts) because they do not have a 
lot to offer. In the US, I see the MO and Charedi kids who go off the 
derech leaving Judaism (and sometimes society) altogether. In 
Israel, I see them joining Chiloni society, which while morally 
bankrupt does not necessarily imply drugs and promiscuity. But I 
see the kids who leave MO and Charedi as looking to get away 
from something rather than looking for something.

I had a guest at my house last month from the US (who is on this 
list) who IIRC said that one of the things they are now finding is 
that kids are maintaining the outer entrapments of being Charedi in 
the US, but are still descending into drugs and promiscuity. 
Someone anonymously sent me emails telling me about kids being 
arrested for drug dealing in shuls in Boro Park and Monsey. 
Hashem Yerachem! I don't know of any such incidents here, 
certainly among teenagers. 

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

> I reject that ROY wasn unaware of JTS's "true
> nature" (as someone has suggested) due to his sephardic pedigree.  ROY
> clearly must have been well aware of all the polemic against Conservative
> Judaism, and yet went to JTS to meet with RSL. 

I have no idea what ROY did know. However, a local rabbi in Raanana, Israel
did tell me that he used to have a major problem with the local Sefardi chief
Rav of Raanana who was completely unaware of conservatives and assumed they
were similarly to MO (this Rav is charedi). It took many years to convince him
that many Conservatives don't believe in Torah min Hashamayim or Shulchan Arukh.
Given that this is a relatively recent story it would surprise me that ROY
was less than knowledgable about Conservatives 30 or 40 years ago.

Eli Turkel

> 
> The April issue of the JO includes an essay co-authored by fellow Avodah
> member R' Ari Z. Zivotofsky and myself on the RSG-RABM controversy. Much of
> the material was developed and honed in deliberations on Avodah. Thank you
> all very much for your input and assistance!
> 

Is an electronic version available?

Eli Turkel

Rav Dessler was responding to the destruction of the European yeshivos
during the holocaust.  Extreme measures were neccessary to recreat a world
of Torah learning.  During the past half century there has been an
unparalleled growth in the number of Jews devoted to talmud Torah.  Partial
credit clearly goes to the existence of the state of Israel and the support
of yeshivos by the various secular Israeli governments.  
In the present situation there is a need to acknowledge what Abaye (Talmud
Bavli 35B) had observed, that the path of Rav Shimon Bar Yochai is not for
the many.  The Tal commision's report which recognizes the concept of a
life solely devoted to Torah study, while enabling those who can not
maintain it to enter the work force and serve partially in the Israeli
army, is an important step in reducing the number of at risk children in
the charedi society and reducing secular-religious tensions.   The American
religious community is also beginning to acknowledge that the present
system of yeshiva education is not for every one.
Sincerely,
Yosef Blau 

On 13 Apr 00, at 9:13, Rabbi Josef Blau wrote:

> Rav Dessler was responding to the destruction of the European yeshivos
> during the holocaust.  Extreme measures were neccessary to recreat a world
> of Torah learning.  

I would hope that is the explanation, but there is nothing that I 
recall in that letter in the Michtav that refers to it as (what you 
imply to be) a temporary measure. 

During the past half century there has been an
> unparalleled growth in the number of Jews devoted to talmud Torah.  Partial
> credit clearly goes to the existence of the state of Israel and the support
> of yeshivos by the various secular Israeli governments.  

Baruch Hashem!

> In the present situation there is a need to acknowledge what Abaye (Talmud
> Bavli 35B) had observed, that the path of Rav Shimon Bar Yochai is not for
> the many.  The Tal commision's report which recognizes the concept of a
> life solely devoted to Torah study, while enabling those who can not
> maintain it to enter the work force and serve partially in the Israeli
> army, is an important step in reducing the number of at risk children in
> the charedi society and reducing secular-religious tensions.   

I agree with you on that. Unfortunately, the Israeli left does not. 
Their spokesmen were on the radio today complaining about how 
the Tal Commission legitimizes Charedim shirking their 
responsibilities to the country and so on. Their "compromise" 
position is no more Yeshiva deferments than existed in 1948, and 
compulsory combat duty or national service for those who cannot 
serve in combat. No distinction between men and women. 

If the Tal Commission recommendations are implemented (and I 
understand that Ehud Barak has accepted them), I think it could go 
a long way in reducing the poverty that permeates the Charedi 
community, but it will do little to reduce the secular-religious 
tensions here. If nothing else, Yossi Beilin's outburst earlier this 
week should remind all of us that secular-religious tensions in 
Israel are not grounded in economics.

The American
> religious community is also beginning to acknowledge that the present
> system of yeshiva education is not for every one.

I think that all of us on this list are not being careful enough about 
distinguishing between the American system and the Israeli one. 
The only thing that the two may have in common is the stress on 
Torah-only being the ideal way to go. But le'maiseh the American 
yeshiva education (at least in high school) is much closer to TIDE 
than it is to Torah only, while the Israeli yeshiva education is 
mostly Torah only. 

If we say that the Israeli system is not for everyone, then we are 
encouraging those for whom it is not to pursue TIDE or TuM. 
Saying that the Israeli yeshiva education system is not for 
everyone does not necessarily preclude academic pursuits. 

But when we say that the American yeshiva education system is 
not for everyone, I think it's important to realize that what we are 
really saying is that not all of our children are cut out for academics 
in general. I think that in a lot of ways, that is harder for the "my 
son the doctor, my son the lawyer" crowd to swallow on a level that 
has nothing to do with fruhmkeit. 

Ironically, AFAIK it is only in Israel that there are fruhm trade 
schools. 

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

********************


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