Avodah Mailing List

Volume 05 : Number 013

Wednesday, April 12 2000

• Re: Rogatchover/Rambam on Koreich
• Re: Rogatchover/Rambam on Koreich
• Re: Israel... What a country!
• Re: Rogatchover/Rambam on Koreich
• Re: Rogatchover/Rambam on Koreich
• Re: Rogatchover/Rambam on Koreich
• Re: Rogatchover/Rambam on Koreich
• Re: Rogatchover/Rambam on Koreich
• Re: Rogatchover/Rambam on Koreich
• RE: Avodah V5 #12
• Re: Rogatchover/Rambam on Koreich
• Aniyei Ircha Kodmim
• Re: RYBS criticising secular Israeli leadership
• Re: Brisker Chakira Concerning Ma Nishtana
• Re: RYBS criticising secular Israeli leadership
• Helping those in Iran

On 11 Apr 00, at 17:21, Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M wrote:

> All is well, the Rambam holds like Chachomim, see the CI Pesachim
> there (siman 142 I think). Details to follow.

Does this mean you're going to find the time to post your Shabbos 
HaGadol Drasha to the list before Pesach? :-)

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

I haven't been following this thread too closely so if
this question has been answered please frogive me
but...

Isn't it a simple fact that the Bal HaHagadah does not
Paskin like Hillel by the very fact that we say Zecher
L'Mikdash K'Hillel, implying that this method, of
eating Matzah and Marror together, is only a daas
Yachid, albeit a valuable enough deah, by someone of
no less stature than Hillel, so that we incorporate
into our seder inorder to be Yotze according to this
valuable Daas Yachid as well?

HM

--- C1A1Brown@aol.com wrote:
> >>>Are you saying that according to the Rambam one
> is
> or is not yotzei l'shitas Hillel by eating matza and
> 
> maror separately?<<<
> 
> Never said that.  I don't know that the Rambam
> paskens
> like Hillel - from the fact that he says you may eat
> matzah and maror seperately it seems he paskens like
> the Chachamim, which leads me to the kashe that if
> so,
> why does the Rambam say to do koreich at all.  It is
> clear from the sugya in Pesachim that acc. to Hillel
> you
> are not yotzei *unless* you do koreich; acc. to the 
> Chachamim you may do either koreich or eat matzah
> and
> maror seperately, with a preference to perform the
> mitzva by eating them seperately (see Tos.)
> -Chaim B.
> 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites.
http://invites.yahoo.com

On Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 11:41:59AM +0200, Carl M. Sherer wrote:
: I also believe strongly that the future of Am Yisrael will be 
: determined in Eretz Yisrael and not in the US or anyplace else in 
: the galus.

While I agree with your point, I want to pick at a rather important nit here.

"Galus" is not a geographic location. As your earlier post shows, it's alive
and well in Artzeinu haKdoshah as well.

-mi

>>>Isn't it a simple fact that the Bal HaHagadah does not
Paskin like Hillel by the very fact that we say Zecher
L'Mikdash K'Hillel, <<<

Even Hillel would say zecher l'mikdash k'Hillel because
you can only do koreich properly if both matzah and 
maror are d'oraysa - otherwise even Hillel holds mitzvos
mevatlos zu es zu.  See the Rif on the sugya.

-Chaim B.

>>>It would sound like the Rambam views this as two halachos: the kiyum
of matzah and marror and the kiyum of the zeicher limikdash kehillal.<<<

The Rambam is talking about b'zman habayis - no zecher
involved, ayen sham.

>>>Therefore, it is consistant that he sees eating the two
seperatelyas the ikkar, and koreich as the less important kiyum.<<<

But he cites koreich first as the preferred method of 
doing the mitzva, like Hillel.

>>>I would not admit to not having a Rogatchover if I 
were you, ein odom meisim atzmo rosho!<<<

I can admit it - you just can't believe me : ).

>>>All is well, the Rambam holds like Chachomim, see 
the CI Pesachim there (siman 142 I think). Details to
follow.<<<

After further thought: perhaps the Rambam learns the
sugya like the RZ"H, that the maskanas hagemara is like
R' Ashi that there is no dispute between Hillel and the
Chachamim at all, and that everyone will hold the
preferred method is koreich.  The Rambam didn't include
kericha with the korban Pesach because he paskens like 
the Yerushalmi in Challah that miztvos mevatlos if you
have three minim.  

You still have a Rogotchover to resolve, but at least
I've taken care of the Rambam.

-Chaim B.

On 12 Apr 00, at 9:07, C1A1Brown@aol.com wrote:

> >>>Isn't it a simple fact that the Bal HaHagadah does not
> Paskin like Hillel by the very fact that we say Zecher
> L'Mikdash K'Hillel, <<<
> 
> Even Hillel would say zecher l'mikdash k'Hillel because
> you can only do koreich properly if both matzah and 
> maror are d'oraysa - otherwise even Hillel holds mitzvos
> mevatlos zu es zu.  See the Rif on the sugya.

I don't have a Hagada in front of me, but I have this vague memory 
of seeing a girsa in the Hagada that says "haya koreich Pesach, 
Matza u'Maror v'ochlan b'yachad." Which actually makes sense 
since it is "kein asa Hillel b'zman she'beis ha'mikdash haya 
kayam." With that girsa, it would seem that the baal hagada would 
pasken like Hillel - at least bifnei habayis - no?

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

No guarantees!


----- Original Message -----
From: Carl M. Sherer <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
To: Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>;
<avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 4:41 AM
Subject: Re: Rogatchover/Rambam on Koreich


> On 11 Apr 00, at 17:21, Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M wrote:
>
> > All is well, the Rambam holds like Chachomim, see the CI Pesachim
> > there (siman 142 I think). Details to follow.
>
> Does this mean you're going to find the time to post your Shabbos
> HaGadol Drasha to the list before Pesach? :-)
>
> -- Carl
>

I am going to speak about that IY"H on Shabbos - and propose the Ba'al
Ha'Haggada specifically wanted to invoke Hillel in the context of Zeicher
l'Mikdash. (See the Aggadata in Sukkah on Simchas Beis Ha'Sho'eiva, last
perek.).

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 6:00 AM
Subject: Re: Rogatchover/Rambam on Koreich


> I haven't been following this thread too closely so if
> this question has been answered please frogive me
> but...
>
> Isn't it a simple fact that the Bal HaHagadah does not
> Paskin like Hillel by the very fact that we say Zecher
> L'Mikdash K'Hillel, implying that this method, of
> eating Matzah and Marror together, is only a daas
> Yachid, albeit a valuable enough deah, by someone of
> no less stature than Hillel, so that we incorporate
> into our seder inorder to be Yotze according to this
> valuable Daas Yachid as well?
>
> HM
>
> --- C1A1Brown@aol.com wrote:
> > >>>Are you saying that according to the Rambam one
> > is
> > or is not yotzei l'shitas Hillel by eating matza and
> >
> > maror separately?<<<
> >
> > Never said that.  I don't know that the Rambam
> > paskens
> > like Hillel - from the fact that he says you may eat
> > matzah and maror seperately it seems he paskens like
> > the Chachamim, which leads me to the kashe that if
> > so,
> > why does the Rambam say to do koreich at all.  It is
> > clear from the sugya in Pesachim that acc. to Hillel
> > you
> > are not yotzei *unless* you do koreich; acc. to the
> > Chachamim you may do either koreich or eat matzah
> > and
> > maror seperately, with a preference to perform the
> > mitzva by eating them seperately (see Tos.)
> > -Chaim B.
> >
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites.
> http://invites.yahoo.com
>

>  Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote: 
> 
> 
> It would sound like the Rambam views this as two halachos: the kiyum
> of matzah and marror and the kiyum of the zeicher limikdash kehillal.
> Therefore he says that to do the latter you need to do koreich. However,
> bidi'eved, if you did not, you are still yotzei the former.
> 
	I believe the Rambam is referring to bzman habayis. Therefore, I
don't think the Rambam was saying that you should eat Koreich zecher
limkdash-he was talking about bzman hamikdash.

How so?

Hillel certainly paskened like himself, but not everyone else followed suit.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Carl M. Sherer <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
To: <C1A1Brown@aol.com>; <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 8:22 AM
Subject: Re: Rogatchover/Rambam on Koreich


> I don't have a Hagada in front of me, but I have this vague memory
> of seeing a girsa in the Hagada that says "haya koreich Pesach,
> Matza u'Maror v'ochlan b'yachad." Which actually makes sense
> since it is "kein asa Hillel b'zman she'beis ha'mikdash haya
> kayam." With that girsa, it would seem that the baal hagada would
> pasken like Hillel - at least bifnei habayis - no?
>
> -- Carl

Apropos our recent discussions about aniyei ircha and about Israeli 
 politics, I was reading through some old Avodah files I have been  
trying to get to for months, and found a shmooze of Rav  
Nebenzahl's that was posted by RYGB back in October. The  
shmooze included the following paragraph that strikes me as  
relevant to our recent discussion. 


-- Carl 


<color><param>7F00,0000,0000</param>> Other people may not care about animals, but will channel their 

> love to other nations rather than their own.  If, G-d forbid, an Arab 

> refugee is suffering they will run to his aid.  Would they have the 
same 

> response for their fellow Jew?  This does not only apply to the left-
wing 

> among us, but even within the religious camp.  There are those 
whose first 

> priority is to draw in those further away, rather than befriending 
those 

> close to us.  Our first priority is to take care of those on our side. 

> We may not affiliate with the same political party, but we believe 
in the 

> same Torah and study the same Gemara.  Our affinity must be 
first and 

> foremost for those who study the Torah, only then can we be 
concerned with 

> the needs of those further away. 



<nofill>
Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

"Daniel B. Schwartz" wrote:


> is of great importance to thie discussion however is ROY's relationship with
> RSL.  It seems that ROY was machshiv RSL to a great degree and actively
> sought out dialogue with him.  I reject that ROY wasn unaware of JTS's "true
> nature" (as someone has suggested) due to his sephardic pedigree.  ROY
> clearly must have been well aware of all the polemic against Conservative
> Judaism, and yet went to JTS to meet with RSL.  The question is what has
> precipitated his move to the right?


First, why is it of any importance to this discussion?

Second, I agree with everything you say above until my next question;

Whose move to the right do you refer to?


---sam

I thank R Daniel Schiffman for the references.

I thought it was clear from the Rambam that there is a chiyuv to get the
child to ask a question. Chameitz uMatzah perek 7 offers a number of ways
to do so.

However, Mah Nishtanah is not a spontaneous question. It is a bit of liturgy
for the seder. I find it absurd to think the Rambam discusses ways to get
your kid curious enough to repeat the text he memorized in school for the
past two weeks. Curiosity has nothing to do with it.

We have a similar situation with E-lokai Netzor, according to the Gr"a's shitah
that it is tachanunim. Tachanunim are by definition NOT a fixed text, yet we
say E-lokai Netzor, the techinah of Mar breih diRavina, as a set part of our
liturgy. Getting your kid to ask a question is also inherently different than
getting him to say a fixed text he obviously had to learn beforehand.

The resolution the Gaon offers there is that EN is a framework. One needs to
say the matbei'ah given to us by Chazal, however without embellishing it with
personal extentions one isn't yotzei. I would suggest a parallel resolution
here.

I therefore appreciate the observation that the Rambam's lashon (7:3) is
"Vitzarich la'asos shinui balaylah hazeh kidei sheyish'alu habanim viyomru
'Mah nishtanah...'" -- stated as two events: getting them to ask a question,
followed by them saying Mah Nishtanah. (Note to R Michael Poppers: shades of
"anu vi'amru"! <grin>)

And yet the Rambam also says (ibid) that if there are no children or if one
is alone, Mah Nishtanah is still asked. Not we ask and say, but just asked.
IOW, without the question, one still says the matbei'ah.

Related to this, in 7:2 the Rambam paskens from "vihigadta livincha" that there
is a chiyuv even if the child doesn't ask a question. I was surprised that the
notion of mitzvah kiyumis was even raised as an option. The Rambam's words
echo the paragraph about the "eino yodei'ah lish'ol".

IOW, Mah Nishtanah is the "at pisach lo". It's part of "vihigadta livincha",
not "ki yish'alcha bincha machar".

All of the above is LAD/IMHO, criticism is invited (and expected).

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 11-Apr-00: Shelishi, Metzora
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 23a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

----- Original Message -----
From: Sammy Ominsky <sambo@charm.net>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: RYBS criticising secular Israeli leadership


> "Daniel B. Schwartz" wrote:
>
>
> > is of great importance to thie discussion however is ROY's relationship
with
> > RSL.  It seems that ROY was machshiv RSL to a great degree and actively
> > sought out dialogue with him.  I reject that ROY wasn unaware of JTS's
"true
> > nature" (as someone has suggested) due to his sephardic pedigree.  ROY
> > clearly must have been well aware of all the polemic against
Conservative
> > Judaism, and yet went to JTS to meet with RSL.  The question is what has
> > precipitated his move to the right?
>
>
> First, why is it of any importance to this discussion?

    The importance lies in trying to understand the obvious inconsistency.
At no time has organized Orthodoxy ever expressed anything other than
contempt bordering on revulsion for organized Conservatism.  Indeed there
have even been times when Orthodoxy said that CJ was worse than Reform.
Yet, ROY at one time was willing to seek out RSL, go to JTS and speak with
him.  He did so when he was Chief Rabbi.  He must have realized that such a
gesture in some way built a bridge between himself, a representative of
Orthodoxy and CJ.  Why then does he adopt a very inconsistent attitude
towards Sarid?  The obvious answers based upon the relative personalities of
RSL and Sarid do not fully overcome the problem.  Appearences created by
people of this magnitude transcend personalities.

>
> Second, I agree with everything you say above until my next question;
>
> Whose move to the right do you refer to?

ROY's

>
>
> ---sam
>

While the US and Israeli gov'ts are not good choices for a campaign to move
the Iranian gov't (as per my earlier email on the subject), venues to help
were found. For example, Iran has representation at the UN, and relations with
the Vatican, Germany, France, Russia and Italy.

The following now appears on the AishDas web site, but I'm sending it around
to the chevrah to share. (The format on the web site may be a shade better
for a shul bulletin board.) It is from an email forwarded to me by R' Kalman
Pacousz (sp?) at Project Genesis who got it from an anonymous source. I
therefore leave it nameless.

If anyone can email me their halachic names, I would appreciate it. Ya'akov
Avinu prepared for Eisav with hishtadlus and tephillah simultaneously.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 11-Apr-00: Shelishi, Metzora
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 23a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         




                       13 Iranian Jews to Stand Trial
                                      
Dear friends;
  
 I'm asking you for an hour of your time which could possibly save
 thirteen Jewish lives.
 
 Iranian authorities have announced that the trial of the jailed
 Iranian Jews is scheduled for April 13th, 2000. The Judge in the case
 said that the proceedings would last no more than one day.
 
 This is the Moment of Truth for them.
 
 And for us as well.
 
 The history of this situation is as follows: Thirteen Jews were
 arrested in Iran just about one year ago. The Iranian government has
 charged them with spying for Israel and the USA, as well as violations
 of Islamic law. They are facing the death penalty. Since 1979
 seventeen Jewish leaders have been executed in Iran on similar raise
 charges.
 
What did these thirteen Jews do???

 They organized and ran the Shuls and other communal Jewish
 institutions, taught classes on Judaism, made sure Kosher food was
 available, made sure Jewish families could keep in contact with their
 loved ones in Israel and the USA They were the glue that held the
 Jewish Community together.
 
 We celebrate Purim this week when the Jews of ancient Persia faced
 annihilation. Today, the remaining Jews of modern day Persia (Iran)
 are facing a similar annihilation, both spiritual physical. These
 actions of the Iranian government are meant to destroy the Jewish
 community of Iran.
 
Who are these thirteen Jews ????

                  Asher Zadmehr                 Age 48
                  Nasser Yakob Levy Haim        Age 45
                  Javeed Beit Yaghoub           Age 40
                  Ramin Farzam                  Age 35
                  Faramarz Kashi                Age 34
                  and his brother Farzad Kashi  Age 30
                  Nejat Beroukhim               Age 35
                  Farhad Seleh                  Age 30
		  Danny Tefileen                Age 28
                  and his brother Omid Tefileen Age 25
                  Shahrokh Paknahad             Age 29
                  Ramin Nemati                  Age 22
                  Navid Balazadeh               Age 16
                                    
 There is a "behind-the-scenes" battle going on right now in Iran over
 the direction the country will be taking. The recent election of a
 more "liberal" government has created an opportunity to help these
 thirteen Jews.
 
 But we must be very careful.
 
 This particular case of Pidyon Shevuyim (Redemption of Captives) is
 vitally important yet more sensitive in nature than ever. Because of
 its unique sensitivity, it is important that concerned American Jews
 direct their activities in an appropriate, effective manner. Direct
 correspondence or protest with Iranian officials or against Iranian
 authorities could possibly be fatally counterproductive at the present
 time.
 
So how can we help these 13 Jews at the present time?

 There are a number of countries that have diplomatic and economic
 relations with Iran. Iran is desperate for Western economic aid and
 interchange. The new government in Iran has stated this as one of
 their chief goals. By urging these nations and organizations to get
 involved and protest the imprisonment of these 13 Jews we may be able
 to effect their release.
 
 Attached is a sample letter and addresses to contact. Please jump on
 this immediately. Do not delay!!! The more letters sent the better.
 Get your relatives, friends, associates, etc. to send letters as well.
 
 Just as in the story of Purim, where God's hand was not manifest but a
 series of incidental events seemingly led to the saving of the Jewish
 Community; so, today as well, our supposedly insignificant letters
 might effect a godsend and save these Jewish heroes from death. with
 your involvement, and the help of the All-Mighty, another Purim
 miracle may yet occur in our time.
 
Sample Letter

 Name and Address
 
 Dear
 
 I am writing to express my profound concern about the upcoming trial
 of the thirteen imprisoned Iranian Jews falsely accused of spying for
 Israel and the United States. As you may have heard, their trial is
 scheduled for April 13th, 2000 and is reportedly supposed to last no
 more than one day. These thirteen Iranian Jews were arrested nearly
 one year ago. Among those being held are Rabbis, religious teachers
 and community leaders. They have been arrested on trumped up charges
 of spying and for the violation of Islamic Law. They face the death
 penalty. Since 1979, seventeen other Jewish leaders, as well as
 leaders of other non-Islamic groups, have been executed in Iran.
 
 I am deeply worried for the safety of these imprisoned leaders and for
 the entire Jewish community in Iran. It is most important that the
 trial that will take place be open and fair. In that vein, I am urging
 you and your Government to add your voice to those who support
 admitting representatives of human rights organizations and free
 democracies into the courtroom to assure that a fair trial takes
 place. Iran should be urged to treat its religious minorities with
 fairness, decency and tolerance.
 
 You and your government are in a unique position to effect the Iranian
 authorities in this direction. I thank you for your past efforts in
 this direction and strongly urge your continued involvement in this
 vital human rights matter in consideration of those whose lives are
 presently at stake. The world is watching these events closely and
 carefully.
 
 Sincerely;
 
 Your name and address
 
Where to Send Your Letters

 His Excellency Kofi Anan
 United Nations Secretariat
 New York, New York 10017
 Fax #: 1-212-963-4879

 His Excellency the Most Reverend Gabriel Montalvo
 Apostolic Nunciature of the Holy See (Vatican)
 3339 Massachusetts Avenue , NW
 Washington, DC 20008

 His Excellency Most Reverend Archbishop Renato Martino
 Mission of the Holy See to the United Nations (Vatican)
 20 East 72nd Street
 New York, New York 10021
 Fax #: 1-212-370-9622

 His Excellency Juergen Chrobog
 Embassy of the Federal Republic of Germany
 4645 Reservoir Road, NW
 Washington, DC 20007
 Fax #: 1-202-298-4249

 His Excellency Francois V. Bujon
 Embassy of France
 4101 Reservoir Road, NW
 Washington, DC 20007
 Fax #: 1-202-944-6166

 His Excellency Yury Viktorovich Ushakov
 Embassy of the Russian Federation
 2650 Wisconsin Avenue, NW
 Washington, DC 20007
 Fax #: 1-202-298-5735

 His Excellency Ferdinand Salleo
 Embassy of Italy
 1601 Fuller Street, NW
 Washington, DC 20007
 Fax #: 1-202-483-2187

 President William Jefferson Clinton
 The White House
 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
 Washington, DC 20500

 Vice President Albert Gore
 office of the Vice President
 Old Executive Office Building
 Washington, DC 20501

 Secretary Madeline Albright
 Department of State
 2201 C Street, NW
 Washington, DC 20520

********************


[ Distributed to the Avodah mailing list, digested version.                   ]
[ To post: mail to avodah@aishdas.org                                         ]
[ For back issues: mail "get avodah-digest vXX.nYYY" to majordomo@aishdas.org ]
[ or, the archive can be found at http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/              ]
[ For general requests: mail the word "help" to majordomo@aishdas.org         ]