Avodah Mailing List

Volume 05 : Number 012

Wednesday, April 12 2000

• RE: Avodah V5 #11
• Re: Religious Secular Relations (was Re: RYBS criticising secular Israeli leadership)
• Re: Avodah V5 #10
• Re: Religious Secular Relations (was Re: RYBS criticising secular Israeli leadership)
• Re: Rogatchover/Rambam on Koreich
• re: RYBS and RSL, new seforim on shiurim of RYBS on Pesach and Tisha bAV.
• Re: aniyei ircha: (ATT vs TTA)
• Re: aniyei ircha
• Re: Rogatchover/Rambam on Koreich
• Re: Avodah V5 #11
• Israel... What a country!
• Re: RSL
• Re: Fw: Ruchani Eye on Rabbi Ovadaih Yosef, shlita
• Re: Rogatchover/Rambam on Koreich
• Re: Israel... What a country!

	RYGB wrote:

> I knew this made sense to me :-) .
> 
> Kezayis is when you can *stop* doing the mitzva - anything up to and
> beyond
> the kezayis is still a mitzva!
> 
> See the Rogatchover who makes similar comments.
> 
	Would this be similar to the Eimek Brachah's sevara by Ad D'lo Yada?

----- Original Message -----
From: Carl M. Sherer <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
To: Daniel B. Schwartz <schwartzesq@worldnet.att.net>; <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 1:21 PM
Subject: Religious Secular Relations (was Re: RYBS criticising secular
Israeli leadership)


> On 11 Apr 00, at 12:46, Daniel B. Schwartz wrote:
>
> >  While quoting pithy statements of Oliver Wendell Holmes
> > > works wonders in academic arguments in American law schools, it
> > > is totally detached from Israeli reality.
> >
> >     Great.  Anyone doing anything proactive to change that reality?
>
> What do you propose anyone do about it?

    Apologize for one thing.  Take the risk, show a little weakness and
admit a human failing.  Is such a tactic fraught with risk?  Of course it
is.  But it may be worthwhile.  Indeed I am an outsider relative to you.
But in all honesty this imbroglio resembles in many ways the frum divorces I
litigate day after day.  Two stubborn sides, both convinced of their
absolute correctness and absolute wrongness of the other, refusing to give
an inch but not powerful enough to destroy the other.   Thus each side
simply sucker punches the other and heaves whatever missiles they can hoping
to wear down the opponent.   Such stalemates are exhausting and end only
when one side decides that it simply isn't worth it and that other
considerations override the desire for absolute victory.  It sounds very
simplistic, and perhaps it is, but it is the basis for my analysis.

> > --- "Daniel B. Schwartz"
> > <SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET> wrote:

I think you just pushed the boundaries of  disrespect to one of the
greatest Rabbis and Poskim of our generation, and if anyone should
apologize -- I would expect you to do so:

>     I'm not sure what exists in the deep recesses of ROY's heart, I
only
> know what he said.  His comments were at best irresponsible and
silly.  At
> worst, they have far more nefarious implications.

First, you apparently have trouble with comprehension.
Second, you have already been told, repeatedly, that you were
misquoting what Rav Ovadya said.
Thirdly, you should have asked what he meant prior to deciding that
you are smarter than him and for sure, as _you_ couldn't understand
the import of what Rav Ovadya said, then obviously his comments were
"irresponsible and silly".
Fourth, to claim that his words had nefarious implications just shows
your ignorance of the Rav Ovadya.

That said, here is some information:
He never called for anyone's death.  The closest translation would be
that he believed that Hashem would take care of Sarid.  Whether Hashem
gave Sarid a new heart or made some other decision -- that is
_Hashem's_ decision, and this was clear, in Hebrew.

As to his meaning, it was obviously allegorical.  Amalek's intention
wasn't just to kill people (in this case jews).  Amalek battled
against Hashem and the possibility of Torah in the world.  Meretz in
general (for the most part) and Sarid specifically wants a national
jewish state sans Torah.  Sarid stated in an interview when he became
Minister of Education that he would do everything in his power that
the Sephardi kids who left the secular education to seek a Torah
education via Sha"s would be forced, b/c of the closing down of those
schools -- to return to secular education.  Sarid made it clear that
he wasn't intending that they go to religious state education, but
specifically to secular state education.

For anyone who was stupid enough to even think, that Rav Ovadya who is
known for his dove-like opinions and attitudes, may have meant for
human intervention to take place, Rav Ovadya stated categorically that
no-one is allowed to harm anyone else, that it is against Halacha to
hurt (in Hebrew the words are more exact) physically anyone.
 Remember -- the claim of "nefarious implications" was that someone
who religously follows Rav Ovadya could take the Rav's words to mean
that they should take the law into their hands and hurt Sarid.  So if
Rav Ovadya explicitly forbade such an action -- does anyone think that
a follower would suddenly stray from Rav Ovadya's psak!!!

>His simply saying after
> the fact that he did not intend a call to violence does little to
ameliorate
> the harm nor does it have much rehabiliative effect.  An apology
would do
> far more good than the circling of the wagons currently taking
place.

As you completely misunderstood the issues, what you have said here is
completely illogical in face of the true facts of the case.

Chag Kasher VeSame'ach,

Shoshana L. Boulil

: But in all honesty this imbroglio resembles in many ways the frum divorces I
: litigate day after day.  Two stubborn sides, both convinced of their
: absolute correctness and absolute wrongness of the other, refusing to give
: an inch but not powerful enough to destroy the other.

I see it somewhat differently. I see it as a loving wife of an insane husband.
He not only hates her and wants a divorce, he's trying to kill himself. (What
else would you call raising your kids on antisemitic literature?) She finally
screams, "You shnook! What are you doing to yourself! May G-d break your hand
before you finish yourself off!"

(Anyone who has seen what Shas has done for the chiloni community would
understand my placing R' Ovadia in the role of loving wife.)

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  9-Apr-00: Cohen, Metzora
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 22a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 25

On Tue, Apr 11, 2000 at 01:09:15PM -0400, C1A1Brown@aol.com wrote:
:                                           The Rambam
: starts by saying to do koreich with matzah and maror,
: and then adds that if you only ate matzah and maror
: independently you are still yotzei - m'mah nafshach:
: if the halacha is like Hillel you are *not* yotzei by
: eating matzah and maror independently, and acc. to
: Chachamim eating them seperately is the preference and
: you shouldn't need to do koreich at all.  Also, the
: Rambam writes that the korban Pesach was eaten
: seperately - why acc. to Hillel was that not included
: in the kericha?

It would sound like the Rambam views this as two halachos: the kiyum
of matzah and marror and the kiyum of the zeicher limikdash kehillal.
Therefore he says that to do the latter you need to do koreich. However,
bidi'eved, if you did not, you are still yotzei the former.

And, your latter point shows that lihalachah the Rambam holds like the rabim
and not Hillel. (Remember the Rambam paskens on issues of avodas beis
hamikdash.) Therefore, it is consistant that he sees eating the two seperately
as the ikkar, and koreich as the less important kiyum.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 11-Apr-00: Shelishi, Metzora
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 23a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

The recent thread of poosts about RSL and ROY are intriguing.RSL tried to 
work out a joint Bes Din with RYBS in the early 1950s. When RSL could not 
guarantee the RA's feaaaalty to halacha, this ended the discussions fro all 
purposes. There is an interesting story in both Nefesh Harav and Rabbi 
Rakkafet's book about a conversation between RSL and RYBS as to tumas sheretz 
and its ability to be mtame a kohen. RYBS's response was priceless.I 
reccomend it to all list readers. 
There is a new volume of Noraos HaRav on Pesach. There are two transcriptions 
of two shiurim on matza shmura, one shiur on mitvas acilas matza and a drasha 
on the Aseres HaDibros.let me share one short and beautifuk insight. Matza 
requires shmira from the beginning until the end in order to ensure a quality 
product. Any lack of shmura disqualifies the matza. So too, chinuch requries 
supervision in different ages to ensure a Jew who will be a Shomer Torah 
umitzvos.
 What is the minhag of most list members with regard to matza during Nisan? 
The minhagim that I've seen range from assur the entire month to mutar until 
erev Pesach. Rav Schachter quoted RYBS to the effect that the first of the 
four statements (Matza) implies that matza and chametz are mutar all year . 
therefore, the minhag from Rosh Chodesh Nisan would have less of a makor than 
the minhag to eat matza up until Erev Pesach. In fact, I think Rav Schachter 
felt that this was the preferable minhag.                Steven brizel
                                                                    
Zeliglaw@aol.com
                                                         

On Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 04:44:42PM +0200, Carl M. Sherer wrote:
: The Aruch HaShulchan argues that "le'hachayoso" only applies to 
: a gabbai tzedaka (it's somewhere in YD 251 - I think 7 or 8). An 
: individual is not obligated to give an ani "day machsoro."

IOW, it's the *state's* responsibility to redistribute wealth? <grin>

Gil Student wrote about RYBS's position:
: He says that halachah is neither Libertarian nor Communist; it's somewhere
: in between. Communism focusses solely on the community and libertarianism
: focusses solely on the individual; halachah focusses on both.

Once again showing how RYBS fused the Kantian with the Brisker -- the
dialectic IS the sh'nei dinim. One can't really understand either facet
of his shitah as a free-standing subject.

Funny thing is I raised the topic for discussion value -- it never crossed
my mind it had even this much merit.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  9-Apr-00: Cohen, Metzora
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 22a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 25

On Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 10:23:03PM +0100, Chana Luntz wrote:
: Let's say you have before you a genuine ger toshav wannabe, and suddenly
: you pull the rug out from under him and say we are not accepting your
: kabbala, because of *our* people's failure to maintain the standards
: that would have kept yovel, and therefore you are not entitled to the
: rights to which you would otherwise have been entitled. 

Actually, the non-Jew already suffers for our failure to maintain standards.
First, his quality of life would be better if we had moshiach here already.

Second, our job is to serve as a mamleches kohanim between the rest of the
world and HKBH. "Ki miTziyon teitzei Torah..." If there is corruption in
gov't, crime in the streets, divorce, legalized immorality, etc... it is,
at least in part, OUR FAULT. We're failing them -- or at least, taking
longer than we could have.

Which may explain your problem accepting this possibility. Perhaps there is
less content to being a geir toshav without having anyone in the role of
kohein.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 11-Apr-00: Shelishi, Metzora
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 23a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

I would not admit to not having a Rogatchover if I were you, ein odom meisim
atzmo rosho!

All is well, the Rambam holds like Chachomim, see the CI Pesachim there
(siman 142 I think). Details to follow.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: <C1A1Brown@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Cc: <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 12:09 PM
Subject: Rogatchover/Rambam on Koreich


> I don't have a Rogatchover, but the shitas haRambam he
> is working with b'pashtus contadicts the whole sugya in
> Pesachim (which is why I avoided it : ).  The Rambam
> starts by saying to do koreich with matzah and maror,
> and then adds that if you only ate matzah and maror
> independently you are still yotzei - m'mah nafshach:
> if the halacha is like Hillel you are *not* yotzei by
> eating matzah and maror independently, and acc. to
> Chachamim eating them seperately is the preference and
> you shouldn't need to do koreich at all.  Also, the
> Rambam writes that the korban Pesach was eaten
> seperately - why acc. to Hillel was that not included
> in the kericha?
>
> Just for the record, the Yerushalmi also has a
> completely different approach to the machlokes Hillel
> and Chachamim: the Yerushalmi in Challah 2b asks how R'
> Yochanan could eat koreich if he holds that the
> Chachamim disagree with Hillel.  The Yerushalmi gives 2
> answers: 1)when two miztvos are d'oraysa the Chachamim
> say mevatlin, but if one is d'oraysa and one derabbanan
> even the Chachamim would say ain miztvos mevatlos zu es
> zu - exactly the reverse of the Bavli; 2) Even b'zman
> hamikdash it is only on kericha of three things
> together that the chachamim would say bittul (chad
> b'trei?), but not on a kreicha of two things alone.
> Aruch haShulchan tries to fit the Rambam into this
> approach, ayen sham for the details.
>
> In any case, the Rambam (and Rogotchover, I imagine)
> introduces a complexity that you avoid if learning
> with Tos, RiF, Ramban, or RZ"H, which I think is the
> simpler approach to the sugya.
>
> So I guess you have till Friday to work out a yishuv in
> time for Shabbos HaGadol : ).
>
> -Chaim B.
>
>
>

My analogy precisely!

----- Original Message -----
From: Markowitz, Chaim <CMarkowitz@scor.com>
To: 'Avodah' <avodah@aishdas.org>; Chaim Brown (W) (E-mail)
<charlesf.brown@gs.com>; <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>; 'Student, Gil'
<gil.student@citicorp.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 1:50 PM
Subject: RE: Avodah V5 #11


> RYGB wrote:
>
> > I knew this made sense to me :-) .
> >
> > Kezayis is when you can *stop* doing the mitzva - anything up to and
> > beyond
> > the kezayis is still a mitzva!
> >
> > See the Rogatchover who makes similar comments.
> >
> Would this be similar to the Eimek Brachah's sevara by Ad D'lo Yada?
>
>
>

Carl:

Your description of the state of affairs in Israel
makes it sound like a "wonderful" country. Who can now
resist the "draw" of living in Artzenu HaKedosha!  Who
would want to live under the oppressive regime in the
USA after reading your below excerpted post. 

No wonder you made Aliyah.

HM

--- "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il> wrote:

> This is some of what he wrote in Friday's Post:
> 
> "The staging of news events that discredit or
> delegitimize
>                certain segments of Israeli society
> is symptomatic of a
>                much broader problem. The free
> marketplace of ideas has
>                broken down in Israel, and those
> calling for its repair are
>                scarcely to be found, at least not
> among elite opinion
>                makers. As a consequence, we are
> experiencing a poor
>                man's 1984. 
> 
>                "On the one hand, the media
> manufacture or distort 
> news.
>                On the other, certain groups cannot
> even gain a hearing 
> for
>                their views. Last week, for instance,
> both Ha'aretz and
>                Ma'ariv refused to accept a full-page
> advertisement
>                showing a group of Meretz members
> stomping a haredi
>                man at a Ramat Aviv protest, with an
> accompanying text
>                of quotes from prominent left-wing
> figures calling for
>                violence against haredim. 
> 
>                "For money, Ha'aretz did not hesitate
> to publish a recent
>                insert by a Christian missionary
> group, and Ma'ariv has
>                been only too happy to serve as the
> country's pimp in
>                advertising massage parlors and
> escort services. 
> 
>                "But, hey, these people have
> principles! Even for tens of
>                thousands of shekels, they would not
> allow certain
>                uncomfortable facts to reach the
> Israeli public."
> 
> Given that state of affairs (and his description is
> painfully accurate), 
> is it any small wonder that the religious public
> reacts the way it 
> does? 
> 
> Did you see the advertising that Shinui put on in
> the last election? 
> Goebbels could not have done better himself. If a
> political party had 
> advertised that way in the US, it would have been
> treated like the 
> KKK or Louis Farrakhan. But in Israel, that party
> got six Knesset 
> seats, which means that 5% of the voters agreed with
> that party's 
> platform. If you add Meretz's ten seats to that
> total, you have a 
> pretty significant number of dati haters, although
> thankfully it is still 
> a minority of the secular population.


> Have you ever seen the interview with
> Chaim Ramon? 
> Chaim Ramon is a "mainstream" Labor party
> politician, and in that 
> interview he came off like a facist worthy of
> Mussolini. Words to the 
> effect of, "if we have one vote more than the
> opposition, we can do 
> whatever we want to, and we have the right to crush
> anyone who 
> gets in our way." Is that democracy? Minority
> rights? 
> 
> You see the problem here is that most Israelis have
> no concept of 
> how a democracy is *supposed* to work. No concept of
> privacy. No 
> concept of "innocent until proven guilty." No
> concept of minority 
> protections, except when it is politically expedient
> to their "side." 
> That's why making pithy statements about freedom of
> speech and 
> democracy are so irrelevant here. The power elites
> here are mostly 
> to the left, the media here is controlled almost
> entirely by the left 
> (witness the persecution of Arutz Sheva and the
> Arutzei 
> HaKodesh), and most of the money in the country is
> controlled by 
> the left. Until you can appreciate that basic
> reality, you cannot 
> begin to comment intelligently on the reality of
> life here.
> 
> It takes two or three years living here before you
> can really begin to 
> understand how "the system" works. I cannot begin to
> tell you how 
> naive I was about Israeli government and politics
> when I came here, 
> and I was a lawyer in New York for seven years
> before we came 
> and a political science major in college. Nothing
> short of day to day 
> living here (and not just sound bites on CNN and an
> occasional 
> Post over the net) introduces you to the reality of
> Israeli 
> government and society.
> 
> That's what I'm trying to tell you - that you don't
> get it because you 
> cannot get it because you do not and (AFAIK) have
> not lived here. I 
> think RYGB (who did live here for an extensive
> period) was saying 
> the same thing when he posted Rav Nebenzahl's
> shmooze the 
> week before last. Commenting intelligently on
> Israeli politics and 
> society is virtually impossible for one who does not
> and has not 
> lived here. And that's why for the most part, most
> of the list 
> members who live in Israel avoid these discussions
> on the list.
> 
> Part of
> > me really suspects that Chareidi leadership 
> 
> For the most part, I don't believe that about the
> Charedi leadership. 
> Many of the foot soldiers do enjoy it, but most of
> the Gdolim are 
> sickened by it. They don't need it to establish
> their positions in the 
> community.
> 
> as well as the Sarids of the
> > world 
> 
> The Sarids of the world have pure motives - pure
> hatred of anything 
> smacking of religion. Ever read the Israeli
> declaration of 
> independence? Go ask a historian why Hashem's name
> isn't 
> mentioned except through a vague reference to "Tzur
> Yisrael." I'll 
> give you a hint - it wasn't just poetic.

__________________________________________________
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Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
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I solicited the opinion of R. Eli Clark, a former Avodah subscriber, who 
generally has knowledgeable opinions on these matters.  The following is a 
private e-mail he sent me (posted with permission) about how RS Lieberman fit 
into the Conservative movement:


I think your description is accurate.  From what I have read, JTS was 
historically the frummest part of the Conservative movement, and R. Lieberman 
was the frummest person in JTS.  I know that he davened at a mehitzah minyan and
that he paid no attention to anything outside the 4 amos of the beis medrash.  
He did not hang out with Heschel and considered kabbalah to be nonsense.  You 
can find citations to his work in R. Zevin's writings.

From the perspective of JTS, he added prestige, but not much else.  His style of
learning required phenomenal bekius and ge'onus, but did not really help train 
JTS students to be Conservative rabbis.

I have never seen anything written by him that was not scholarship.  Nothing 
addressing Conservative philosophy or halakhic innovations.  Of course he did 
formulate a nusah for the kesubah that was adopted by the Conservative movement.
 It was designed to remedy agunah problems, but the Orthodox world rejected it 
because it may have created an asmakhta.  (In any case nowadays the Conservative
movement is willing to engage in hafka'as kiddushin.)

In short, it is my sense that calling R. Lieberman the "intellectual head" of 
the Conservative movement is like saying R. Dovid Lifschutz was the intellectual
head of YU.

Kol tuv,

Eli

>>Someone on Avodah recently stated that R. Saul Lieberman was the 
>>"intellectual head" of the Conservative Movement (in the context of his 
>>close relationship with R. Ovadiah Yosef and the current events in Israel).

>>Was RS Lieberman a leader in the C movement?  I had assumed that he was >>just
a professor who was largely respected and ignored.  What were his >>responses to
innovations like permitting driving on Shabbos or counting >>women for a minyan?
>>
>>Thanks for your time,
>>
>>Gil Student

In one email:
: Vanity, ego, self-idolization, an individual's belief that he really 
: understands G-d's motives and can really act as G-d's true representative: 
: These things are the same in any religion....

In another:
:>> No sage is superior to the truth.

:> Who defines "truth"?

: Can Truth ever realy be known by mere mortals?...
: short of Nevuah, that is.

: Truth = Torah

I believe RYGB's point is not that chachamim define what is True in some
Platonic sense (although for halachah, the do), but rather, that we rely
on them to determine pragmatically what we should assume to be true. (Within
limits -- divrei haRav vidirei hatalmud, divrei mi shom'im?)

If I recall the aggadita about R' Akiva's second day learning Torah correctly,
without emunas chachamim we couldn't even have an aleph beis.

Back to the first email...

One wonders how someone who thinks that the people who coin halachah are
motivated by "vanity, ego, self-idolization..." could be motivated to follow
the laws they institute.

In terms of acting as G-d's true representatives, can a chacham be mocheil
his kavod? Were does that kavod derive from?

That's not to say we're mindless drones following chachamim -- but there's
a huge gap between accepting someone as a replacement for free will and
reducing him to an egotistical Ayatollah bent on issuing fatwas for fame
and profit.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  9-Apr-00: Cohen, Metzora
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 22a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 25

>>>Are you saying that according to the Rambam one is
or is not yotzei l'shitas Hillel by eating matza and 
maror separately?<<<

Never said that.  I don't know that the Rambam paskens
like Hillel - from the fact that he says you may eat
matzah and maror seperately it seems he paskens like
the Chachamim, which leads me to the kashe that if so,
why does the Rambam say to do koreich at all.  It is
clear from the sugya in Pesachim that acc. to Hillel you
are not yotzei *unless* you do koreich; acc. to the 
Chachamim you may do either koreich or eat matzah and
maror seperately, with a preference to perform the
mitzva by eating them seperately (see Tos.)
-Chaim B.

Look what happens when you try to be mekanei la'emes and 
defend the kavod of a talmid chacham. Hashem yerachem....

On 11 Apr 00, at 14:39, Harry Maryles wrote:

> Your description of the state of affairs in Israel
> makes it sound like a "wonderful" country. Who can now
> resist the "draw" of living in Artzenu HaKedosha!  Who
> would want to live under the oppressive regime in the
> USA after reading your below excerpted post. 
> 
> No wonder you made Aliyah.

If it wasn't abundantly clear until now, let me state for the record 
that I made aliya because it is a mitzva to live in Israel, and 
because my children get a fruhm chinuch here that is superior to 
anything available in chutz la'aretz. I did not make aliya because I 
wanted to live in a socialist country or because I am enamored of 
the Israeli political system.

I also believe strongly that the future of Am Yisrael will be 
determined in Eretz Yisrael and not in the US or anyplace else in 
the galus. I want to play a role in that future. IY"H, no one will ask 
me after 120 why I stayed in America while Klal Yisrael needed 
fruhm American Jews to make aliya and straighten Israel out.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

********************


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