Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 477

Monday, April 3 2000

• Re: R. Hildesheimer
• Re: Avodah V4 #476
• Re: Avodah V4 #476
• Pesach minhagim
• First Annual Avodah Pesach Get Together in Israel
• Re: Television
• second kezayis
• Re: More Dor Rivii
• Kiyum for achila more than a kzayis
• Packing peanuts, chometz, and quote of the Ari zl
• Middle of the Torah
• RE: Packing peanuts, chometz, and quote of the Ari zl
• Re: Packing peanuts, chometz, and quote of the Ari zl
• Re: Shiurim
• Re: Kiyum for achila more than a kzayis
• Re: Middle of the Torah
• Re: Shiurim
• Re: Shiurim

Is it any good?


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Dov Weiss <dweiss@ymail.yu.edu>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Cc: <avodah-digest@aishdas.org>
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2000 12:12 AM
Subject: R. Hildesheimer


> David ellenson wrote a biography on R. Esriel Hildesheimer called "Rabbi
> Esriel Hildsheimer and the Creation of a Modern Jewish Orthodoxy"
> It was published by University of Alabama Press in 1990
> dov weiss 
> 
> 

In a message dated 4/2/00 5:48:18 PM Central Daylight Time, 
owner-avodah@aishdas.org writes:

<< Subject: Thought on the PASSOVER FAMILY FUN KIT
  I was wondering what the Avodah olam thought of the Passover Family Fun Kit 
 ???
  On one side, I think it is a really cute idea that can get kids into the 
 seder.
 On the other side, this is not something my zaide would do.
 What are your thoughts?
  >>
On the one hand, if you think it's not such a hot idea,  I wonder why you 
included the company's ordering information, and, on the other hand your 
Zaide didn't know from Hollywood, and, special effects. Is a floor show 
necessary to keep a child's interest at a seder table? Chaval!

Barry Schwarz

In a message dated 4/2/00 5:48:18 PM Central Daylight Time, 
owner-avodah@aishdas.org writes:

<< From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
 Subject: Television
 
 - --- "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
 <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
 > > In message , Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M.
 > Bechhofer
 
 > > >What benefit can there possibly be in TV?
 
 
 I quote the famous Polish American philosopher,  James
 Ignatowski:
 
  "Television... What am I, nuts?!"
 
 I have discussed in the past the virtues of Television
 
First, Isn't a "famous, Polish American philosopher," an oxymoron?
Second, Is THIS an appropriate subject-diatribe for Avodah?
Barry S.

I don't imagine that people would be interested to know my particular
minhagim for Pesach.  Nonetheless, it may evoke a response from a
kindred spirit.  We do not keep real, d'oraita chometz over Pesach, and
sell the minor mixtures and kitniyot through the shul rav.  As per the
customary minhag among Ashkenazim, we don't eat pot roast, much less
actually roasted meat or chicken at the sedarim.  We try to supply at
least all the adult (or teen-age) males with their own ka'ara with hand
matzot.  I am not makpid on shmura, whether hand or machine, outside the
seder, but only use the 18 minute KAJ matzot. We normally use a
combination of iceberg lettuce and grated horseradish for marror.  We
used to use romaine lettuce, but people insist that there are always
little green bugs in them.  I have never seen the bugs, so I decided to
avoid the bug problem by going with plain lettuce.  When I lived in
Elizabeth NJ, the moreh d'asra, Harav Pinchas Mordechai Teitz taught
that iceberg lettuce was fine.  I learned from this list that some
people have some rational objections to horseradish as a marror species,
despite the fact that it was used by everyone in eastern europe.  I
haven't decided if I will forego horseradish this year for myself, but I
don't think that I can overturn what my extended family is accustomed
to.  So we will have both, and most will use a combination of both.
Coming from a Galizianer ancestry, we don't use gebrokst, but don't make
a fuss over it.  It is simply a minhag without halachic consequences.
Thus, the younger children are allowed to have matzoh pieces in milk and
sugar for cereal.  I, however, do not distinguish between the last day
(shel galuyot) and the other days.  I let the rest of the family brokle
their matzoh in the soup, or make kneidlach - but I don't follow suit.
My Vishnitz grandparents were said to have a set dishes and tableware
just for gebrokst on the last day.  My own personal innovation is not to
eat anything that looks like chametz, even if it is made of potato
flour.  Thus, I refrain from Pesach cakes of any kind.  I haven't met
anyone with such a personal minhag, but would be curious if anyone in
this list has a similar practise.

Yitzchok Zlochower

Adina and I are pleased to invite those list members who will be in 
Eretz Yisrael for Chag HaPesach ha'ba aleinu le'tova to the First 
Annual Avodah Pesach Get Together in Israel. The get together will 
IY"H be held in our home, on the fifth day of Chol HaMoed, 
between 10:00 A.M. and 1:00 P.M. (For those who are curious 
about the timing, we did not want to take one of the two days 
people can potentially go on trips with their families, and we figured 
that although this is Erev Chag, it is a long day). 

You are welcome to bring your children as well - we have a large 
backyard, a park next door and a park across the street.

We live in Yerushalayim. I am reluctant to put our address, 
telephone number and directions to our home on an archiveable 
format, but if you send me private email to this address, I will be 
glad to send you all the details. 

Also, if you do not eat gebroks, please let me know and we will try 
bli neder to have something other than water available for you :-) 
(My wife's family does not eat gebroks, so traditionally we do have 
specifically non-gebroks food in the house). 

We hope IY"H to have a special guest from the US, and one of my 
sons has made some noises about making a siyum in honor of the 
occasion.

RSVP no later than 13 Nissan if you plan to come. IY"H I do not 
plan to be in the office during Pesach.

Chag Kasher v'Sameyach.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

from Vol.#476
"Children's programming on PBS is by far the most
positive force on TV today. Programs like Mr. Rogers
and Barney teach nothing BUT positive values to kids.
These are values that are in full consonance with the
Torah."
While I cannot comment specifically on any program, I have on 
occasion sat thru some other children's shows on PBS with my 
children. And while some or even most may be Torah-compatible,
there is enough "off" that I feel it necessary to explain to my kids 
where the problem is and how a child who learns Torah should react.
So you might say "Great! What a wonderful chinuch activity". 
Have you tried talking to a child in the middle of a show? 
Practically the only way I can get their attention is by turning it off - 
and that doesn't get me very far.
Truthfully, I have found the same issue with a lot of children's books,
but I find that when reading to my kids they don't mind if I take a short 
detour - quite often they will stop me anyway to explain things.

"Watching Sesame Street will often put
pre-schoolers  in a far better position when they
enter school."
R'SY Weinberg pointed out that what Sesame Street and it's 
ilk do is teach children that learning is another form of 
entertainment - that it is fun. What happens to them then when it 
gets hard and not so much fun?
I have heard this (that students today expect to be entertained) corroborated by educators.

"And a minor fringe benefit of these
programs is that they tend to keep kids time occupied
in a positive way and leave less time  to get into
mischief around the house."
I'll let Roald Dahl respond to that 
(Charlie and the Chocolate Factory pub. 1964)
   It rots the senses in the head!
   It kills imagination dead!
   It clogs and clutters up the mind!
   It makes a child so dull and blind
   He can no longer understand
   A fantasy, a fairyland!
   His brain becomes as soft as cheese!
   His powers of thinking rust and freeze!
   He cannot think-he only sees!
(there's more: http://www.roalddahl.org/books/charsongs.htm#Mike ) 
If they cannot/won't read, I'd suggest books on tape.

kol tuv 
Sender Baruch

> Gil.Student@citicorp.com writes:
> 
> << I would say that what makes it difficult is the SECOND kezayis of matza that the
>  mechaber introduces.  Add to that the kezayis for korech and that's a lot of
>  matza going down the hatch.
>

I have several opinions that one can combine the shittah of 2 kezatim
with
the chumra of the Noda beyehuda that doubles the size of the kezayit.

Thus, in fact one doubles the shiur that accounts for BOTH the Nodah
beYehudah
and also for the second kezayit according to the smaller shiur. There is
no need to quadruple the shiur and hold both chumrot together.

Eli Turkel

Toby Rubinson wrote:

<<<
Let me just clarify. I agree, and wrote clearly in my original post, that due 
to his gadlus nothing the Dor Rivii said or wrote is beyond the pale. And I 
agree that you have a right to argue his position, and, in fact, as a 
descendant you should do so. However, I still feel his position cannot be 
considered normative.
>>>

I think that you are trying to have it both ways here, and while I recognize
and appreciate that you are trying to be respectful to the Dor Revi'i, where
you seem to be coming down is that he should be marginalized.  

<<<
 What makes a position normative is a very complex 
question. But lets say I was a Rabbi or spiritual leader and I was teaching 
about the law that one is required to forfeit all ones possessions rather 
than transgress a negative prohibition. Naturally, this is somewhat of a 
tough halacha to swallow. It goes against our sensibilities (which is part of 
the reason the Dor Rivii has trouble with it).
>>>

Part, but only part.  He also argues that it contradicts the explicit
and famous drasha on "b'khol m'odekha"

<<<
 When teaching this law, 
although I would be aware of the Dor Rivii's position, I feel as a teacher it 
would be misleading to highlight it.
>>>

"Highllight" is a very tricky verb in this context.  Please explain to me how
"highlight" as you are using it differs from "acknowledge the existence of."
Was it equally misleading for Rabbeinu ha-Kadosh and Ravina and Rav Ashi 
to "highlight" all the deiot yehidim recorded in the Talmud?  

<<<
 If one were to read the vast majority of 
Rishonim and Achronim on the matter one would be forced to come to the 
conclusion that the position of the dor rivii is not normative, meaning the 
overwhelming evidence is against him.
>>>

Perhaps yes and perhaps no.  I haven't done the literature search that you
are suggesting, though I agree such a literature search would be very
worthwhile.  I hope to consult the BaCH that you cited.  But does anyone
else address the Dor Revi'i's argument?  A simple headcount cannot 
establish whether "the overwhelming evidence" is against him or not.  To 
do that we would have to study the contrary arguments to his position and 
then assess their relative merits.  Has anyone actually done that?  I can 
understand that a posek faced with an actual case might be reluctant  to 
rely on a da'at yahid, especially a rather late Aharon against the weight of 
so much contrary opinion.  But then does "normative" mean anything other 
than "the generally accepted halakha l'ma'aseh"?  If not, fine.  But you 
seem to have something else in mind.

<<<
 To highlight his position would be a 
case of being uncomfortable with a halacha, and searching for an opinion to 
fit my sensibilities.
>>>

Kan ha-ben sho'eil:  Mah nishtanah ha-da'at (yahid) hazot mikol ha-deiot
(yehidim)?

<<<
 If one is a student, follower or descendant of the Dor 
Rivii it is understandable to follow his positions.
>>>

I am greatly privileged to be his descendant, but we all may be zokheh to be
his students and followers.

<<<
 However, I always have a 
problem with shopping for a gadol who fits ones preconceived notions, 
especially when one takes one position from this gadol one from another when 
these positions might even be contradictory.
>>>

I agree with you about "gadol shopping."  But what has that to do with 
whether the Dor Rev'i may be considered "normative"?

<<<
 Doing so is probably not assur, 
but seems to me to be "naval berishut haTorah." 
>>>

Again, I assume that that statement is not intended to apply to the 
Dor Revi'i any more than to any other gadol.

<<< 
(I am using the Dor Rivii's position on losing all ones money in order not to 
transgress a negative prohibition as an example, in fact he has many original 
positions, both halachic and hashkafic that I would label non-normative.)
>>>

I would be most interested (and I say that without any ironic intent) in seeing
your list of such positions.

David Glasner
dglasner@ftc.gov

I quoted Tos. in kiddushin as possibly saying that 
eating more than a kzayis is not a kiyum mitzva - 
Tos asked why it was prohibited to eat matzah shel
chadash when we can say aseh doche l"t and (in one of
two answers) said that we are goizer k'zayis rishon atu 
k'zayis sheni,implying there is no kiyum in the second
k'zayis.

There seem to be two other chiddushim buried in
this Tos.  Rashi in Pesachim 35b holds that we apply 
mitzva haba'ah b'aveira (mhbb"a from now on) to matza 
shel tevel (Rashi goes as far as to apply the principle 
of mhbb"a even if the issur transgressed is 
derabbanan.  See Tos. in Sukkah 30 who raises as a 
safek why we DON'T apply mhbb"a by matza shel tevel, also Tos. Sukkah 9 - Rashi could very well hold that
even if mhbb"a is a pseul derabbanan is pasels the 
matza on a d'oraysa level, see 36b regarding kaltuhu 
mechitzos.)  If you hold of mhbb'a, Tos. whole kashe 
doesn't get off the ground.

Secondly, Tos. is suggesting that we apply aseh doche
l"t to a davar sh'yesh lo matirin (chadash).  Lulai
Tos. I would have argued that why be doche a lav when 
tomorrow it will be heter gamur.  Perhaps one can argue
that aseh doche l"t is b'geder hutra and not dechuya.
I am not familiar with other sources that discuss this.

-Chaim

 

While this is initially not an Avodah type of issue, it does segue into an 
Avodah type of topic.

In Rabbi Blumenkrantz Pesach guide, in addition to the Pesach 2000 issue of 
Kashrus Magazine, they mention that one should not use packing peanuts on 
Pesach.

Packing peanuts are those things you see in shipped packages that are 
included to cushion the item.  It is a preferred item to use as opposed to 
the plastic bubble wrap since the packing peanuts are biodegradable.   If 
you hold a handful of the packing peanuts under water, they will disappear 
within a few seconds.  (If you get a large shipment, this can keep your kids 
busy for a while).

Since corn and wheat starch are used to make the packing peanuts, the Rabbi 
Blumenkrantz Pesach guide and Kashrus Magazine (note: The magazine writes 
this quoting an unnamed posek ) write that one should avoid the use of 
packing peanuts.

I do not understand why.  The packing peanuts are not made leshem ochel.  
They are clearly not roi leachilas kelev.  While the packing peanuts 
themselves are non-toxic, they still have no semblance whatsoever to food.  
As to chometz nuksheh, is seems to be a stretch to compare the packing 
peanuts to it.

Can anyone help me out and explain why we should be concerned with packing 
peanuts?

Which segues into the comment of the Ari z’l that nearly every Rav and 
Peasach sefer quote this time of year:

Anyone who removes all chometz from their house is assured of having a year 
without sin.

With such an Ari z’l in mind, people clean their house in a manner that the 
halacha clearly does not require.

While I am not versed in the writings of the Ari z’l, such a statement, is 
LAD  in no way referring to the physical chomotz, it is clearly referring to 
the chomentz we carry around in our neshamas.

In addition, spending weeks riding our homes of minuscule pieces of chometz 
(which is undoubtedly in the framework of bitul be’alma sagi), while not 
spending enough (if any) time riding ourselves of the chometz in our souls, 
(which is a chometz gomur that no Rav can sell) is LAD not in any way what 
the Ari z’l was referring to.

So how do we put more emphasis on the real bitul ha’chometz and less time on 
packing peanuts?

Just my thoughts,
BR

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Apologies if this subject has been brought up before (I'm somewhat new on
this list):

Commentaries tell us that the vav in Shemini is elongated because it marks
the midpoint of the letters of the Torah.  Elsewhere I've read (can't find
sources) that it is not the mid-point of the Torah.

Can someone shed some light on this?

I also frequently read of the 600,000 letters in Torah, and yet also that
there are approximately 308K letters in Torah.  While the 600K may be a
metaphor (?), most references to this 600K number do not mention that it is
so.

Can someone shed light on this, too?

Thanks.

-- Eric

> Can anyone help me out and explain why we should be concerned
> with packing
> peanuts?
>

Even though they are clearly not roi leachilas kelev, IF someone wanted to
eat them, then you would have a situation of achshavey. It regains it's
status of chametz, and becomes assur D'Ohrisa.

Akiva



A reality check a day keeps
the delusions at bay (Gila Atwood)

===========================
Akiva Atwood, POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

On Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 07:04:56PM +0200, Akiva Atwood wrote:
: Even though they are clearly not roi leachilas kelev, IF someone wanted to
: eat them, then you would have a situation of achshavey. It regains it's
: status of chametz, and becomes assur D'Ohrisa.

Lishitascha, what ever qualifies as "eino ra'uy la'achilisas kelev"? (BTW,
drinking stronger acids out of styrofoam is unhealthy, as it leaches
carcinogens into your drink. That includes Coke. Tea with lemon is okay, it
you put the lemon in first. Okay, it's an off-topic comment -- sort of. Maybe
this is why I don't think of packing peanuts as anything close to ochel.)


I personally never understood R' Bloomenkrantz's stance on a number of
non-foods. Biggest example, non-flavored medicines. I took comfort when I
heard R' Frand (on tape) rule leniently. Someone asked after the shiur about
why medications then appear on such lists. R' Frand suggested that it was
a measure of kedushas am Yisrael, not to even want permissable chameitz around.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 31-Mar-00: Shishi, Shmini
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 17b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Haftorah

Tasting the matza is not me'akev but is necessary l'chetchila. (The
s'vara may be similar to kol horo'ui l'bila ain bila me'akeves,
regarding minochos)

In any event, having a conflicting taste is worse than having no taste
at all-- bola matza u'maror, yedai matza yatza, but chewing them
together is worse-- see MB 475:31 and Pesachim 115b  Tosfos D"H Yedai
Matza.

Avrohom Weidberg 

----------------------------------------------
>>> "Carl and Adina Sherer" <sherer@actcom.co.il> 03/30/00 11:25PM >>>
On 30 Mar 00, at 18:47, Edward Weidberg wrote:

> One can't rely on the matzoh eaten during koreich and the rest of
the
> meal (eaten together with other food) to complete the shiur kzayis, 
> because the taste of maror (during koreich) and other food is
mevatel
> the taste of matzoh. See MB O"C 475:16 based on Pesachim 115a.
(Perhaps
> even bedi'eved.)

Why? We pasken bola matzo yatza. AIUI that means that the 
taste of the matza is not me'akev.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

On 3 Apr 00, at 11:59, C1A1Brown@aol.com wrote:

> Secondly, Tos. is suggesting that we apply aseh doche
> l"t to a davar sh'yesh lo matirin (chadash).  Lulai
> Tos. I would have argued that why be doche a lav when 
> tomorrow it will be heter gamur.  Perhaps one can argue
> that aseh doche l"t is b'geder hutra and not dechuya.
> I am not familiar with other sources that discuss this.

IIRC, there is a Kovetz Heoros in Yevamos (14?) where he says 
that Aseh Docheh Lo Taseh only applies where the only way to be 
mekayem the Aseh is by being docheh the Lo Taseh (e.g. mila on 
Shabbos, Yibum).

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

I think this issue has been discussed based on the 
gemara in Kiddushin that the chachamim could not find
the exactl middle letter.  It is mashma from that that 
chaseiros v'yeteirot is not meakev the kashrus of the
sefer, unlike shitas haRamban in his hakdamah to the 
Torah.  The Chasam Sofer is quoted as saying that 
letters composed from multiple units count as more than
once - e.g. a ches is really 2 vavs (or a vav and zayin)
600,000 corresponds to the members of klal yisrael each
of whom has a chelek in Torah (don't recall the exact
source); MaHaRaL in another context writes that 
600,000 is the # symbolizing complete shleimut (see
YGB's Toras Purim on 'sos' and the significance of 6).

-Chaim

On 3 Apr 00, at 12:55, Edward Weidberg wrote:

> Tasting the matza is not me'akev but is necessary l'chetchila. (The
> s'vara may be similar to kol horo'ui l'bila ain bila me'akeves,
> regarding minochos)

If that's the case then how come, bola matza u'moror, yedai matza 
yatza?

> In any event, having a conflicting taste is worse than having no taste
> at all-- bola matza u'maror, yedai matza yatza, but chewing them
> together is worse-- see MB 475:31 and Pesachim 115b  Tosfos D"H Yedai
> Matza.

I'm in the office, so I do not have a Gemara handy but as I read the 
Mishna Brura, Micha's idea of combining the matza and the korech 
would allow you to be yotzei matza (so long as you swallowed it 
without chewing), but you would have to eat the maror separately 
so you could chew it and get that delicious taste that refreshes....

-- Carl (whose sinuses clear just from typing those words :-) 


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

I'm not sure what you mean in the first comment, but regarding the
second one, yes, if one is bole'a the korech without chewing it, if
there is no conflicting taste of maror,  one would be yotzei the mitzvah
of matza bedi'eved.

Avrohom Weidberg

>>> "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il> 04/03/00 02:19PM >>>
On 3 Apr 00, at 12:55, Edward Weidberg wrote:

> Tasting the matza is not me'akev but is necessary l'chetchila. (The
> s'vara may be similar to kol horo'ui l'bila ain bila me'akeves,
> regarding minochos)

If that's the case then how come, bola matza u'moror, yedai matza 
yatza?

> In any event, having a conflicting taste is worse than having no
taste
> at all-- bola matza u'maror, yedai matza yatza, but chewing them
> together is worse-- see MB 475:31 and Pesachim 115b  Tosfos D"H
Yedai
> Matza.

I'm in the office, so I do not have a Gemara handy but as I read the 
Mishna Brura, Micha's idea of combining the matza and the korech 
would allow you to be yotzei matza (so long as you swallowed it 
without chewing), but you would have to eat the maror separately 
so you could chew it and get that delicious taste that refreshes....

-- Carl (whose sinuses clear just from typing those words :-) 


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il 
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il 

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

*********************


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