Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 471

Thursday, March 30 2000

• Re: Shiurim
• Re: shiurim
• Disciplining Children
• Re: shiurim
• shiurim
• takanot
• Re: Chassidim and Drug Laundering. NY Times 3/29/00
• Re: shiurim
• Administrivia: New and (hopefully) improved archive
• Re: Chassidim and Drug Laundering. NY Times 3/29/00
• Matza shiurim
• Use what we can learn from the NY Times article
• REC's Daparture and Us
• Re: Administrivia: New and (hopefully) improved archive
• Re: Matza shiurim
• Re: Use what we can learn from the NY Times article
• Re: Matza shiurim
• Re: aniyei ircha
• Re: Matza shiurim
• Re: aniyei ircha
• Matzas Mitzva & Simcha

"Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" wrote:


> 
> Remind me if we discussed this, but since every morsel of matzo on the night
> of Pesach is a mitzva d'orysa. why would you not eat as much matzo as
> possible, leaving room for the other mitzvos achila and  a seudas Yom Tov?


You mean you could eat more than 4 kezeitim of mazah? Seriously.

Besides, how would you know you'd had enough before the meal and still
left room to eat the afikoman with any sort of appetite? 


---sam

I think the *hakpada* on shiurim came about as a result of the use of
machine matza (150 years ago, and which itself resulted in a big machloket).
Up to then, hand matza was much thicker than it is today and there were no
air bubbles. [It's possible that today's hand matza got thinner as a result
of the prevalence of machine matza]. So say 200 years ago, a kezait of matza
was much smaller than it is today and thus, the mimetic tradition of what
a kezait of matza should look like.

Josh

Adina and I have been attending a biweekly support group for fruhm 
(probably 80% Charedi and 20% DL) families with sick children, 
sponsored by Zichron Menachem. The support group is actually a 
series of lectures by a fruhm psychologist who deals with the 
issues that confront parents with sick children. In most respects, 
however, the issues are not that different from the issues that 
confront all fruhm parents (except that some things are more 
intense), and so the class is essentially a parenting class in a 
guise that is acceptable to husbands :-) 

I should hasten to add that no one should draw any conclusions 
about Baruch Yosef from our attendance at this group. He is B"H 
doing well, and I actually have some pangs of guilt about taking 
advantage and attending. 

In any event, last week, the psychologist raised the question of 
whether one should separate children who are fighting. Every 
parenting book that has come out in the last 30 years (at least) 
says that you should not get involved in your kids' fights, and that 
you have to let them fight it out as long as they are not doing 
serious physical harm to each other. All of the women in the group 
took that position :-) 

But this psychologist thinks otherwise, and that's what I wanted to 
raise with this group. Based on the Mishna Brura in 343 and the 
Chazon Ish in Chapter 3 of Emunah u'Bitachon (which I have not 
yet seen inside, because I'm not sure which siman he is referring 
to), the psychologist argues that al pi din Torah, you should 
separate your kids who are fighting. He said that for a Jew to hit 
another Jew R"L is an issur, and just like we say "koton ochel 
neveilos bais din m'tzuvim le'hafrisho," so too we have to separate 
our kids if they hit each other.

One other mareh makom (which I have not had the chance to go 
through yet - it's rather lengthy) would be Achiezer 3:81 (the issue 
of koton ochel neveilos came up in the Daf Yomi shiur last week - 
that's why I happened to have that mareh makom handy).

Any thoughts?

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 30 Mar 00, at 11:23, BACKON@vms.huji.ac.il wrote:

> I think the *hakpada* on shiurim came about as a result of the use of
> machine matza (150 years ago, and which itself resulted in a big machloket).
> Up to then, hand matza was much thicker than it is today and there were no
> air bubbles. [It's possible that today's hand matza got thinner as a result
> of the prevalence of machine matza]. So say 200 years ago, a kezait of matza
> was much smaller than it is today and thus, the mimetic tradition of what
> a kezait of matza should look like.

IIRC many of the Eidot HaMizrach still use the thicker matzos. 
Maybe R. Sammy could comment?

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

< I don't know who R' Naeh is. But I'm looking at 3 different sefarim, and
all are makpid on shiurim, following Maran haShulhan Aruch. Ish Mazliah
(the original), Ben Ish Hai, and Yalkut Yosef. The first two were before
the "shiurim craze". <

R. Chaim Naeh lived in Yerushalayim some 70 years ago.
Of course we pasken like the mechabber. The question is how to
translate his shiurim into modern quantities like grams.
The major translations today are R. Chaim Naeh, R. Moshe Feinstein
and Chazon Ish.
I find it amusing that American seforim generally quote only R. Moshe
and Chazon Ish while Israeli seforim only quote R. Chaim Naeh and
Chazon Ish.
In any case R. ChaiM Naeh's measurements essentially emulate the old
Sefardi minhag in Yerushalayim and have been strongly endoresed
by R. Ovadiah Yosef.

As I mentioned seperately most of the old data seems to also support
R. Chaim Naeh. Also as the smallest of the popular shiurim it kends
itself to being more reasnable in terms of ones usual eating habits.

Eli Turkel

Gil Student wrote

<< >>Given that Rav Hertzog's beis din passed takanot to:

a) forbid a father marrying off his minor daughter (a power specifically given
to the father by the Torah) and>>

Really?  What does he do with the concept made famous by the Taz (but found also
in rishonim) that Chazal cannot forbid anything explicitly permitted by the
Torah? >>


Why does this bother you more than takkanot of Rabbenu Gershom?
Marrying two wives is explicitly mentioned in the Torah?

Eli Turkel

--- Zeliglaw@aol.com wrote:
> In today's Times, Judge Leo Glasser sentenced yet
> another Chassisic garbed 
> person for drug smuggling. Judge Glasser was quite
> critical of a community 
> that allowas its youth to be corrupted so easily.
> Moreover, the Defendant, an 
> 18 year old mentioned that he grew up in avery
> religious house without a TV 
> or seeing a movie and in a very short period of time
> he became quite fond of 
> drugs. What a Chillul Ha Shem ! Any comments ?

Perhaps these youngsters would have been benefited by
the introduction of TV into their homes.

On second thought, considering the evils portrayed on
TV who knows how these young drug smugglers would have
been corrupted.

Better to live the pristine environment of insular
Chasidic life.  This way the evil influence of what is
portrayed on TV will forever be eliminated from their
encounter.

Besides Everyone needs to make a living, right? As
long as you only sell drugs to Goyim.  They are
animals anyway and are probably Michuyiv Misa for
violating the Shiva Mitzvos Bnei Noah.


HM

__________________________________________________
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On Wed, Mar 29, 2000 at 09:35:05PM +0300, Eli Turkel wrote:
: In my family and those of our acquaintances the shiur from my childhood was
: always several bitefuls, never the huge shiurim of today. I have heard plenty
: of stories of rabbanim that ate "reasonable" shiurim.

You reminded me of someone (not on Avodah) who was simultaneously arguing
for "sane shiuirim" based on a mimetic arguemnt (she'eris Yisrael lo
ya'asu avla), and yet also arguing that cleaning for Pesach doesn't mean
spring cleaning. Confusing the two can lead to dreading Pesach's arrival,
a violation of "visamachta bichagecha". As Shoshana Boublil posted around
this time last year. However, this person was arguing that we ignore the
shiur kizayis for matza and yet start paying attention to the very same
shiur for bedikas chameitz!

If there aren't clear rules about when to follow mussar avicha (textualism) and
when one should practice toras imecha (mimeticism), this kind of inadvertant
kulah shopping is inevitable.

Are there rules? (And are the rules textual or mimetic? <grin>)

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 29-Mar-00: Revi'i, Shmini
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 16b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 23

The web archive is maintained by a program that is subscribed to avodah-digest
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is build an index of subject lines. With the old sofware, this was taking
longer and longer as the number of back issues increased. Also, the index
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So, I updated the software. This is much CGI, and I try to use JavaScript
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The index is now divided into 27 sections: A-Z and non-alphabetic. Each is
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Retrieving from the archive is done with a CGI form, so that we don't have
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Each issue (starting with v1n13, the early issues still aren't parsing
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The list's home page also reflects the changes recently made to the membership
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I invite people to <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah> and let me know what they
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The next changes I would like to do (assuming the insomnia holds out) are
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so that if you give it a multi-word search text, it doesn't match the words
in emails from totally unrelated discussions; 2- to allow you to specify
close-matches of Hebrew transliterations (with some usable accuracy rating).
The latter is more useful for terms you do not require in every file matched,
to allow such close matches to appear at the top of the list of results.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 29-Mar-00: Revi'i, Shmini
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 16b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 23

----- Original Message -----
From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 6:05 AM
Subject: Re: Chassidim and Drug Laundering. NY Times 3/29/00


> Perhaps these youngsters would have been benefited by
> the introduction of TV into their homes.
>

What benefit can there possibly be in TV?

> On second thought, considering the evils portrayed on
> TV who knows how these young drug smugglers would have
> been corrupted.
>

I am glad that you immediately realized the error of your previous
paragraph. Absolutely, TV would just make things worse.

> Better to live the pristine environment of insular
> Chasidic life.  This way the evil influence of what is
> portrayed on TV will forever be eliminated from their
> encounter.
>

100% true!

> Besides Everyone needs to make a living, right? As
> long as you only sell drugs to Goyim.  They are
> animals anyway and are probably Michuyiv Misa for
> violating the Shiva Mitzvos Bnei Noah.
>
>

I disagree with this statement. I think it is forbidden to engage in
behavior that may lead o Chillul Hashem even if you can theoretically
justify it from a halachic standpoint. The people engaged in such behavior
were not making such highfalutin' cheshbonos.

Can this discussion really have any positive side to it? If so, please
educate me. If not, move on, please!

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

 From: Eli Turkel <turkel@post.tau.ac.il>
 
> In my family and those of our acquaintances the shiur from my childhood
> was always
> several bitefuls, never the huge shiurim of today. I have heard plenty
> of stories of rabbanim that ate "reasonable" shiurim.

I figure that we eat between 6 and 12 square inches between the matza
and the corech, which falls within the 9 minutes.  At any rate, we
generally eat at least a shiur of matza during the meal in toto.  Probably
not of horseradish, though.  We usually have salad, which might bring
up the lettuce quotient.

As Shlomo hamelech says, al titosh torat imecha - this is from my
mother's side of the family.

RYGB wrote:

> Remind me if we discussed this, but since every morsel of matzo on the night
> of Pesach is a mitzva d'orysa. why would you not eat as much matzo as
> possible, leaving room for the other mitzvos achila and  a seudas Yom Tov?

I don't see that it's necessary to cram it all in right away, though.
Doesn't the motzi cover all bread eaten during the meal?  I would think
this is analogous.

At any rate, this was a question of what does one do on the basis of what
one's ancestors do, not what should one do on the basis of a theoretical
analysis.  Everyone knows that on the basis of theoretical analysis, we
should all be cramming 1.3 sheets of cardboard into our mouths in less 
than two minutes.  How that's supposed to work given the size of matzot
divided by the number of guests is left as an exercise for the reader.
Extra credit: work in the Gra's opinion of 2 sheets rather than 3.
(Lubavitchers need not answer, as they distribute 3 full matzot to each
1 or 2 participants, which leaves enough for husband and wife, or two
single people, to eat 1.3 sheets.)

    Jonathan Baker        |  Knock knock. Who's there? Mischa. Mischa who?
    jjbaker@panix.com     |  Mishenichnas Adar marbim besimchah.
  New web page, featuring Rambam Resources: http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker/

Rabbi Bechhofer is so accurate when he states that the details of the 
article about the Hasidic teen sentenced for drug running is utterly 
inappropriate for this forum.

Now, lets put our heads together and see what we can learn, not from the NY 
Times article, but from the metzius of it.

Why would a hasid turn to drugs, money, etc.?  Where was his avodah lacking? 
  What is his responsibility?  What is the communities responsibility?  How 
much should his sect and family be held harmless?  Held responsible?

These are the questions we need to focus on.  Answering them will indeed 
focus out avoha.  Focusing on the NY Times article only takes away from it.

Thanks,
/af

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

In the wake of REC's departing message, I believe it is time to make an
effort to uplift standards here. There is no value that I can perceive,
given the mission of our group, to postings along the line of "Whaddaya
think about XYZ" when XYZ is a social or political phenomenon that is beyond
our capacity to fix and does not directly relate to any social grouping with
which active Avodah members are affiliated. The issue of Drug Laundering in
the Chassidic Community is a prime example. We have very few to none of the
Chassidim of that ilk online here, there are very few to no intellectual
issues involved in clearly deviant behavior, and, above all, whose Avodas
Hashem, exactly, is enhance by this discussion?

Issue such as Mishpat Ivri, Democracy in a Jewish State, Shiurim for the
Seder, Yissaschar/Zevulun, and the like, are all legitimate intellectual
issues (be the issues Halachic, Hashkafic, Societal - as relates to "Us",
not "Them", or Emotional areas). These are some nice current threads on
Avodah. Sometimes these issues cause tempers to flare, and that is natural
and expected - that is why many of us have received "DNA's" at some time or
another. But incendiary issues l'shem atmam, not as a byproduct - should be
beyond our ken.

Let's shape out lest others ship out!

You wrote:


> So, I updated the software. This is much CGI, and I try to use JavaScript
> for field validation only -- so they appear to work even with Lynx (which
> doesn't do JavaScript), if you make sure not to ask for "volume 4, issue 998".


Did you write the software? Are you planning to sell it? If so, may I
purchase a copy? If not, may I have a copy?


> I invite people to <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah> and let me know what they
> think.


Neat. Clicking on a name doesn't always drop you where it promises, but
it's usually in the same digest. The concept is very well executed, easy
to use, and attractive in it's simplicity. I like it.



> in emails from totally unrelated discussions; 2- to allow you to specify
> close-matches of Hebrew transliterations (with some usable accuracy rating).
> The latter is more useful for terms you do not require in every file matched,
> to allow such close matches to appear at the top of the list of results.


Does this mean I should start transliterating in Ashkenazis? :-)


---sam

A kezayis is meaningless unless eaten toch kedei achilas pras. this is true
not just the night of the Seder, but at any meal in which bread or pas is
consumed. It is not clear to me if chatzi shiur asra Torah is reflected in a
similar principle of chatzi shiur mitzvah. Thus, I would think, there is a
ma'alah in being masmich all achilas matzo to a kezayis within kedei achilas
pras. Just rumination.

BTW, will the fire in a BP Matzo factory yesterday affect matzo prices this
year?

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: <jjbaker@panix.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 8:53 AM
Subject: Matza shiurim


> I don't see that it's necessary to cram it all in right away, though.
> Doesn't the motzi cover all bread eaten during the meal?  I would think
> this is analogous.

----- Original Message -----
From: aviva fee <aviva613@hotmail.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 9:04 AM
Subject: Use what we can learn from the NY Times article


> Why would a hasid turn to drugs, money, etc.?  Where was his avodah
lacking?
>   What is his responsibility?  What is the communities responsibility?
How
> much should his sect and family be held harmless?  Held responsible?
>

I agree that these may be legitimate intellectual/emotional issues in Avodah
for us to discuss, but I think that we must clarify that this legitimacy
pertains only so long as *we* personally derive chizuk, mussar and/or
enhanced da'as from the discussion, not if and when such discussion is
turned "against" those sects and communities.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

On 30 Mar 00, at 9:53, jjbaker@panix.com wrote:

> I figure that we eat between 6 and 12 square inches between the matza
> and the corech, which falls within the 9 minutes.  

I always understood that 9 minutes was the "long" shiur for kdei 
achilas pras, and therefore is the one to use for Yom Kippur. For 
Pesach, I understood we were to use the short shiur, which is two 
minutes (measured from when you start to swallow).

(Lubavitchers need not answer, as they
> distribute 3 full matzot to each 1 or 2 participants, which leaves
> enough for husband and wife, or two single people, to eat 1.3 sheets.)

Although I am a misnaged, we have the same minhag with respect 
to distributing matza (generally all males capable of eating 
anything approaching a shiur get their own plates, and I keep a lot 
of extra for ladies who don't get from anyone else). OTOH, that 
could be my shver's chasidishe (albeit not Lubavitch) influence.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

Why would one choose to contribute to goyishe charities (where there's
no aivo or chillul Hashem), where the same money (limited resources) can
be used for specific mitzvas asei  min hatorah of supporting aniyei
yisroel? 

Avrohom Weidberg

R. David Glasner wrote:
Look, we all have to make judgments about how best to use the
scarce resources we have available for charitable contributions.
You have certain criteria in your head and heart that govern
your decisions, and your decisions are not strictly governed by 
the principle of aniyei irkha kodmim.  If you choose not to contribute

to charities that benefit gentiles unless you are compelled to do so, 
because you would be embarrassed if the gentiles were to find out 
how you really feel about them, I leave that to you and your 
conscience.  But I don't think that you should use the principle of 
aniyei irkha kodmim as a club with which to intimidate those who 
take a broader view of what is entailed by the obligation to give 
charity into following your own sense of "proportions and priorities." 

I am happy that there are those who are giving charity that allows 
families in your neighborhood to enjoy a chicken on Shabbat.  I am 
also happy that there are those who are giving money and taking 
other actions to help save innocent lives in other parts of the world. 

I don't think that anyone who does either needs to apologize for doing

so.

On Thu, Mar 30, 2000 at 05:47:06PM +0200, Carl M. Sherer wrote:
: I always understood that 9 minutes was the "long" shiur for kdei 
: achilas pras, and therefore is the one to use for Yom Kippur. For 
: Pesach, I understood we were to use the short shiur, which is two 
: minutes (measured from when you start to swallow).

Don't do a tarta disasrei, though. If you are eating Chazon Ish (CI) size
kezeisim, then you could be eating them in CI size kiday achilas piras
(KAP). 1 zayis / 1 KAP should be a constant speed, regardless of whose
shiurim you are using, as the ratio between a zayis and a piras is constant.

Otherwise, you probably aren't yotzei anyway, since achilah gasa lav shimei
achila.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 29-Mar-00: Revi'i, Shmini
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 16b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 23

On Thu, Mar 30, 2000 at 10:48:31AM -0500, Edward Weidberg wrote:
: Why would one choose to contribute to goyishe charities (where there's
: no aivo or chillul Hashem), where the same money (limited resources) can
: be used for specific mitzvas asei  min hatorah of supporting aniyei
: yisroel? 

Simple example: if someone had a close relative with some disease, they might
be moved to give to research foundations that are trying to cure it. Even
after the choleh's petirah, the person is going to feel a strong kesher to
that cause.

Someone who lived under the Moslems in Syria might feel strong empathy toward
Xian slaves in Sudan.

Vechulu...

Your argument could also be applied to other moneys, such as spending money
to fly to Israel, or to see one's rav/rebbe, or buying a fancy megillah
case (noi mitzvah for a diRabbanan), etc...

The truth is, there's no indication the same money would otherwise go
to tzedakah. Mitzvos that reach a person emotionally not only get
mitzvah money, they tend to pull more from the luxury budget as well.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 29-Mar-00: Revi'i, Shmini
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 16b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 23

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 9:13 AM


> Why do you assume each morsal of matzah is an additional mitzvah?  I
believe
> the netziv discusses this in his peirush on the haggadah.  I had learned
> Tos. at the end of the first perek of Kiddushin that you don't say aseh
> doche l"t on matzah shel tevel because we are goizer the the first k'zayis
> atu the second as that only the achilah of the first k'zayis was a mitzva.
> However, I have seen others learn pshat that there is a kiyum in eating
the
> second k'zayis but no chiyuv and Tos. l'shitasam (to R"T in Menachos)
holds
> that you only say d'chiya when there is a chiyuv.
>

I do not know that the parameters of Aseh docheh LT are relevant, as you
yourself note. One needs, of course, to klerr a similar chakira WRT yibum
and bi'ah sheni'a.

> Plenty of mekoros to support the contention that simcha must be dumya
> d'korbanos (I think the M.B. brings down to eat meat even on chol hamoed,
> but haven't checked in along time) - however, there is no reason to eat
meat
> on leil Y"T as the basar shelamim was not offered till the next day (and
> this distinction pays great dividends when you want a milchig meal on leil
> shevuos when you are eating at 9:30 PM ; ).  I think this approach is
based
> on a Sha'agas Arye.  Based on the above, there is no reason to eat davka
> meat at a Purim seudah, also discussed in achronim.  I have wondered if
you
> hold that there is an obligation to eat basar whether it is enough to just
> eat a taste, or is there a shiur.
>

I think the SA is really a shittas yachid. Let me ask you, is a woman not
yotzei Simchas YT unless she gets new clothes? If so, what is the shiur?
Peruta? Beged?

> R' Tzaddok discusses in passing tshuvah for an akum at the beg. of
Takkanas
> HaShavin and cites a few relevant achronim.
>

Und vos zogt er?

YGB

*********************


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