Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 468

Tuesday, March 28 2000

• Re: Avodah V4 #467-Mishloach Manos from a man to a woman
• Amazon and B&N are Selling "The Protocols"
• Re: Amazon and B&N
• Pope as Melech (was re: Golus Mentality)
• B&N and Protocols
• R' Hutner's opinion of hagiography
• Re: Pope as Melech (was re: Golus Mentality)
• Warsaw/Vilna
• Am Back
• Re: Rav Yosef
• Re: How Can We (aniyei irkha)
• Re: Golus Mentality
• Re: 19th Century Dress
• The Pope, The Chief Rabbis, and Kol Isha

In a message dated 00-03-28 08:57:17 EST, you write:

<< 
 Why then the concern with Mishloach Manot on Purim. >>
There is a teshuvah on this in the Shevus Yakov, cheilek 1, siman 41.He also 
has difficulty with the safek kiddushin reasoning, and suggests another 
reason for prohibiting sending Mish.Manot to the other gender, which is that 
such a practice
is 'mareh keiruv vechina ve-hergel davar.' Recently Rav Ahron Soloveichek was 
asked by a single man if he could send Mish.Man. to a  female acquaintance 
and he answered very strongly in the negative. He gave the standard reason of 
chasash savlonos and kiddushin, and said that being lenient here could lead 
to a slippery slope situation.   

<color><param>7F00,0000,0000</param>> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 07:51:58 -0600

> From: Micha Berger <<micha@aishdas.org>

> Subject: Amazon and B&N are selling "The Protocols"

> 


> In short: Amazon and Barnes and Noble are both selling "The Protocols of

> the Learned Elders of Zion", 


</color>Not only do *they* sell it, but according to my comparative pricing 
software, so does just about every other large internet bookseller. 
So much for effective boycotts....


If it's any consolation, in B&N's "People who bought this also 
bought" feature, people who bought the Protocols also bought 
books that disprove them (at least as of last week).


The following appeared on another list yesterday:


I received this response to my letter from Barnes and Noble:


---Rena  


<color><param>7F00,0000,0000</param>> -----Original Message-----

> Thank you for your email.  Following is a statement issued by 
Barnes & 

> Noble.com regarding this title:

> 

> In recent weeks some Barnes & Noble.com customers have 
expressed concern

> about the classification of a book titled "Protocols of the Elders 
of 

> Zion" on our Web site, and certain accompanying reviews.  Many 
reports 

> have erroneously stated that this title is classified on our site as 

> "Judaica."  In fact, this book has no such classification.    
However, 

> from time to time Barnes & Noble.com receives copies of the 
book from 

> out-of-print dealers who classify it as "Jew" or "Judaica," but we 

> remove these classifications as soon as possible and notify the 
dealers 

> in questions that this is wholly inappropriate.  In addition, the 

> reviews in question have been removed from the site after careful 
review

> by our editors.

> 

> Barnes & Noble.com has worked closely with members of the 
Jewish 

> community to correct the misinformation regarding this issue.  
Below, 

> reproduced with his permission, is a statement of support from 
Rabbi 

> Eric A. Silver of Temple Beth David in Cheshire, Conn.  We thank 
Rabbi 

> Silver for his assistance in this matter:

>     

> "At no time did any anti-Semitic intent color Barnes and Noble's 
actions

> in this matter, and in fact, I think they are to be absolutely 
believed 

> on this score.  This company carries many books, and each 
book has its 

> adherents and its detractors.  The company's initial response to 
me was 

> to cite First Amendment freedoms, and indicate that they would 
carry 

> even controversial books.  I would be the first to agree with that 

> position?.

> 

> A bit of clarification is in order: very often a book is classified by 

> its distributor, and Barnes and Noble simply accepts the 
classification.

> An out of print version of "Protocols" that carries the label 
"Judaica" 

> will be classified that way on the Internet?. That's a far cry from 

> malice.  Similarly, if it finds its way onto a shelf in a retail store, 

> there are obvious reasons why the manager would place it in the 
Judaica 

> area.  The title itself is misleading, and pity the poor store 
manager 

> who obviously doesn't have the time to read every single book in 
the 

> store.

> 

> I think we're done with this issue, and in the best possible way.  

> Please-don't boycott Barnes and Noble.  They don't deserve it.  
They are

> honest book merchants who go out of their way to provide the 
reading 

> public with the best in books and service.  At no time in any of 
this 

> was there even a scintilla of malicious intent.  Occasionally even 
a 

> good company will slip up, but once B&N became aware of the 
book's true 

> nature, they acted with alacrity.  The fake review was pulled, and 
the 

> book is being appropriately identified.  I want to commend 
Barnes and 

> Noble for cleaning up their own act, and I also want to commend 
the many

> of you out there who have taken the time to let B&N know of your 

> concern.  More than anything else, it proves that this is a 
company that

> listens to its customers, and that's what good business is all 
about."  

> 

> 	Rabbi Eric A. Silver

> 	Temple Beth David

> 	Cheshire, CT

> 

> If you have any additional questions or comments, please email 
us at 

> service@barnesandnoble.com. Or, if you prefer, you may call our 
Customer

> Service Center at 1-800-The-Book (1-800-843-2665).  Customers 
living 

> outside of the United States may contact us at 201-750-4426.  
Customer 

> Service Representatives are available to assist you 7 days a 
week from 

> 9:00 a.m. until 9:00 p.m., ET.

> 


</color>-- Carl



<nofill>
Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

But on the amazon site, the book is accompanied by a slanderous and
downright evil blurb from the book's publisher, one which attempts to
make it seem as if there is a legitimate difference of opinion as to
whether the Protocols are an antisemitic forgery--or whether they might
be "authentic"! B&N stopped doing this under pressure/communication from
Jewish scholars and groups. Amazon is refusing to change its policy.  I
have cancelled my account with Amazon.  Jacob Meskin

> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:00:42 -0500
> From: Gil.Student@citicorp.com
> Subject: Re: Golus mentality

> Question:  Does the Pope have a status of melech over the Vatican and, if so, 
> should one say the berachah upon seeing him?

I believe that the status of Melech that requires a bracha is one 
that includes the power of life and death (i.e. to hand out death 
sentences and grant pardons). I don't believe the Pope has that 
power.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

From a Connecticut colleague:

'This will be (I hope) my final statement on the Barnes and Noble
issue, and because of its content, I would ask that it be given
the widest possible distribution. ... Some weeks ago I contacted
Barnes and Noble over the fact that they were carrying "The
Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" under the rubric
of "Judaica" (yes and no-depending upon how and where one looked
on the net and in the retail stores,) and that their web site
contained a review by a person purporting to be a university
professor, attesting to the historicity of the book and claiming
that many of the dire predictions and plots in the book were
already coming to fruition.

'Barnes and Noble told me that they saw it as their mission to
carry every title in print, cited the First Amendment, and you
can guess the rest, so I wrote an e-mail describing the
situation,  sending it out to the various lists on which I am a
subscriber.

'Friday afternoon I received a phone call from Gus Carlson who
heads up the Communications and Customer Relations 
Department at Barnes and Noble, and Laura Dawson who manages 
the company's data base for the on-line and retail stores.  That call 
 was followed by a phone call from Tom Simon, Vice President of
Content Development at the company.  They deeply regretted
the earlier response I had received, and both wanted to assure
me that at no time did any anti-Semitic intent color Barnes and
Noble's actions in this matter.

'I think they are to be absolutely believed on this score.  This
company carries many books, and each book has its adherents 
and its detractors. The company's initial response to me was to cite
First Amendment freedoms, and indicate that they would carry
even controversial books.  I would be the first to agree with
that position. "Protocols," however, is in a different
category altogether, and the three B&N executives with whom I
spoke all agree with that.  They made plain to me that the
company was not aware of the book's true nature at the outset of
all this brouhaha, and that had they been, the book would have
been classified differently.  They also assured me that new
company policy would ensure that reviews would be carefully
screened to ensure that a spurious review does not pop up on
their web site.

'A bit of clarification is in order: very often a book will be
classified by its distributor, and Barnes and Noble will accept
the classification.  An out of print version of "Protocols" that
carries the label "Judaica" will be classified that way on the
Internet site because no one at B&N knows any different.  That's
a far cry from malice.  Similarly, if it finds its way onto a
shelf in a retail store, there are obvious reasons why the
manager would place it in the Judaica area.  The title itself is
misleading, and pity the poor store manager who obviously
doesn't have the time to read every single book in the store.

'I think we're done with this issue, and in the best possible way.
Please-don't boycott Barnes and Noble.  They don't deserve it.
They are honest book merchants who go out of their way to
provide the reading public with the best in books and service.
At no time in any of this was there even a scintilla of
malicious intent.  Occasionally even a good company will
slip up, but once B&N became aware of the book's true nature,
they acted with alacrity.  The fake review was pulled, and the
book is being appropriately identified.  They have taken steps
to ensure that spurious reviews don't pop up on any book that
might be controversial, and they have also taken steps to
prevent a vendor from classifying a book under a particular
heading (i.e., Judaica,) without that classification coming
under B&N's scrutiny. Moreover, Mr. Simon has asked me to
prepare a review of "Protocols" and he will post it on the web
site as the first review.  He also proposed that I include
URL's to sites that would advise readers about the nature of
propaganda, hate literature, and so forth.  Lastly, he advised
me that the company is considering setting up a new
classification called "propaganda," "hate literature," or
something like that.  That would ensure that hate literature
(sic!) doesn't inadvertently pop up in the wrong section.

'I want to commend Barnes and Noble for cleaning up their own
act, and I also want to commend the many of you out there who
have taken the time to let B&N know of your concern.  More than
anything else, it proves that this is a company that listens to
its customers, and that's what good business is all about.'
END

Let me note, in addition, that B&N does not list antisemitic books 
from the Nation of Islam.  

I am acquainted with the Riggio brothers, who are CEO and COO 
of B&N.  They are good people.


                                
JAY LAPIDUS 
We The People (TM) of Greater Hartford, opening Aug. 2000
http://www.wethepeopleusa.com 
http://jlapidus.tripod.com

 

I saw this interesting paraphrase on From Rabbi Yisroel Ciner's
<ciner@torah.org> Parsha-Insights list for this week's parashah:
: Rav Hutner zt"l, in a famous letter to a student who was getting
: discouraged by his stumbles in life, wrote that the stories we tell of the
: greatness of our Gedolim {great Jewish scholars and leaders) can sometimes
: serve a disservice. We tell of the final end product, skipping the
: struggles and stumbles, which, only through them, was that greatness
: achieved.

: The classic example amongst Klal Yisroel {the Jewish people} of a person
: who guarded his tongue and attained the highest level of taharas halashon
: {purity of speech} is the Chofetz Chaim. Ask any child and he'll tell you
: that the Chofetz Chaim never spoke or listened to lashon harah {derogatory
: statements}. That of course is incorrect. It was only as a result of his
: battles, his struggles, his stumbles and his setbacks that he ultimately
: attained the purity that he did. But that is not discussed! The result is
: that a person who slips and sometimes speaks lashon harah can feel
: discouraged and disgusted with himself. "I'm not cut out for this," he'll
: say to himself.

We've belabored this issue already. I just thought that seeing R' Hutner's
position would be of interest.

Note that he doesn't say that this kind of "biography" is wrong, just that
it has a price attached. He may hold that the price is worth paying so as
to avoid LH.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 24-Mar-00: Shishi, Tzav
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 14a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Haftorah

On Tue, Mar 28, 2000 at 04:46:31PM +0200, Carl M. Sherer wrote:
: I believe that the status of Melech that requires a bracha is one 
: that includes the power of life and death (i.e. to hand out death 
: sentences and grant pardons). I don't believe the Pope has that 
: power.

What would you call the Inquisition? The current Pope may not excersize that
power, but I'm pretty sure he has it.

-mi

>>Warsaw and Vilna were (usually) in two different kingdoms with two
different sets of rulers.  <<

From about 1797 to 1917 they were apart only about 6 years under Napoleon.
Otherwise, afaik, the czar ruled them both. 
Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com

B"H my mother is doing much better, although she is going to be in the
hospital on IV antibiotics for some time (from infections, most likely
contracted in the hospital, during or after a hernia operation). Those of
you who know her might consider calling her at 516 763 3746, as the
boredom will probably get worse!

Although I do not believe we have any Young Israel of Oceanside members
here on Avodah, I must publicly note and commend the outstanding services
they provide to patients and their families that find themselves in South
Nassau hospital - truly great Chesed and Kiddush Hashem.

While it would prove hopeless to catch up on accumulated mail, I hope to
get back into the swing of things me'kan u'l'ha'ba.

Thanks to all who sent me private e-mail expressing concern and offering
assistance! Ye'yasher kochachem.


KT,
YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

Rav Yosef is justly renowned for his bekiut.  It is therefore a wonder
that he could have failed to recall the mishnah "hakhamim hizharu
b'divreikhem."

In this week's parasha Moshe admits his error in criticizing Aharon.
The Talmud (or midrash) tells us that this is one of three cases in
which Moshe forgot a halakhah because of anger.  If Moshe 
Rabbeinu could admit a mistake, certainly there would be no 
shame if Rav Yosef were to do likewise.

Great is peace for the Deity allowed his ineffable name to be
erased for the sake of peace.

David Glasner
dglasner@ftc.gov

Carl Scherer wrote:

<<<
But the Torah TELLS me that aniyei ircha kodmim, and as long as 
the Torah tells me that, I could care less what the nations of the 
galus think. 
>>>

I replied:  

<<<
Can we please not confuse mitzvot d'oraita with mitzvot d'rabbanan?
Remember Adam, Eve, and the serpent.
>>>

Carl wrote back:

<<<
Where is the deRabbanan here? Giving tzdoka is a mitzva d'oraysa 
(nosone titein lo). Chazal are only telling us how the mitzva should 
be performed (aniyei ircha kodmim), which they learn from a pasuk 
(im kesef talveh).
>>>

I was only questioning whether aniyei irkha kodmim is really d'oraita,
not whether giving charity to the poor is d'oraita.  The Rambam 
cites the verse l'ahikha, l'aniyekha, l'evyonkha b'artekha as the 
source for the principle aniyei irkha kodmim.  It is not immediately
obvious to me whether this drasha would qualify as a d'oraita or
merely an asmakhta for a d'rabbanan.  Unfortunately, the
Rambam himself is not always explicit in making such distinctions.
At any rate, it is a drasha of Chazal not an explicit pasuk.  But 
perhaps I was too quick to assume that aniyei irkha kodmim is 
obviously d'rabbanan.

I wrote:

<<<
And, by the way, while we are on the subject, doesn't the 
obligation to support aniyei irkha also include the non-Jewish poor?
>>>

Carl replied:

<<<
Yes, together with aniyei Yisroel mipnei darchei shalom (Rambam 
Matnos Aniyim 7:7), based on a Gemara in Gittin 61a. Whether 
together means davka or lav davka is apparently a machlokes 
rishonim (too many m'koros to start looking up at midnight, but 
look at the m'koros and tziyunim in the Frankel Rambam in Matnos 
Aniyim 1:9).
>>>

Even if I were to grant you that it is lav davka, the principle of 
darkei shalom seems to override the principle of aniyei irkha 
kodmim in the way you wished to apply it, which is that one
should not get involved in causes that are dedicated to the
welfare or salvation of gentiles.  Since I gather that no one
interprets the principle of aniyei irkha kodmim so strictly that one 
may not contribute to worthy charities that benefit those outside 
of one's own city, I don't see how the principle of aniyei irkha
kodmim can be used as a justification for negating the 
principle of darkei shalom.  Certainly those who are moved
by that principle to devote themselves to the salvation of 
innocent human life should not be accused of having a 
golus mentality or of pandering to the goyim.  Even if one
legitimately prefers to employ his or her efforts and 
resources directly on behalf of strictly Jewish causes, one
need not impune the motives of those who are  inspired to 
take another direction.  To quote the Ha'amke Davar 
"harbei d'rakhim yesh la-ha-Shem"

David Glasner
dglasner@ftc.gov

On Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 11:42:44PM +0200, Carl and Adina Sherer wrote:
: > To me, kedushah means "committed for a given purpose". The usual meaning is
: > "... for the Ultimate Purpose" (lichvodi barasiv). ...

: I think Kedusha means separated. See the Toras Kohanim at the 
: beginning of Parshas Kdoshim.

Thanks to Shulamis Aloni, I noticed that kedushah and taharah are orthogonal
concepts. She argued in favor of giving back all of Chevron, even Ma'aras
haMachpeilah. Her "proof" that the me'ara lacked sanctity to Jews was that
kohanim aren't allowed to enter graves. Thinking about it, I realized that
it is possible for something to be both kadosh and tamei. (Although a kohen
/is/ permitted to approach a tzaddik's kever.)

Yet, both kedushah and taharah are related to havdalah. Kedushah, as RCS argues
above. Taharah is definitionally "free from impurities", c.f. "zahav tahor",
being seperated from adulteration.

To more accurately state the idea I was trying to relay in my previous email,
kedushah is "separated for", whereas taharah is "separated from". "Kadosh li-"
vs. "tahor mei-".

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 24-Mar-00: Shishi, Tzav
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 14a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Haftorah

On Mon, Mar 27, 2000 at 06:46:18AM -0500, Avi Feldblum wrote:
:                                        it is clear that this lvush is in
: no way "authentic" jewish...               So there was clearly a "Shinu
: Es Lvushom" to get to this point, so why does "Shloi Shinu Es Lvushom" now
: come into play? 

Two wrongs don't make a right?

Isn't the point of "shelo shinu" that attire stood as a barrier against
assimilation? (By which I mean not only of people, but also the more subtle
assimilation of cultural ideals that we've been discussing in another thread.)

In which case, any distinctive clothing would serve better than the
contemporary fashion. We aren't afraid of assimilating into the culture
that produced Chassidishe levush.

-mi (wearing jeans and a button down shirt)

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 24-Mar-00: Shishi, Tzav
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 14a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Haftorah

Sunday morning I witnessed (via the medium of instant
telecommunications known as broadcast television) a
sight that I never thought I would ever see:  Pope
John Paul approaching the Kotel saying a prayer, and
putting a Kvittel in the Kotel with words to the
effect of asking forgiveness of G-d for all the evils
done by Christians to the "people of the covenant"
(That... would be us!) over the millennia and a hope
that we (Christians and Jews) could reconcile in the
spirit of brotherhood.  He then genuflected and left. 
(It was nice to see that he brought his own Yarmulke.)


Like the rest of the world I watched the week's events
and made some interesting observations.  

First I noticed that the 2 Chief Rabbis were fawning
all over him.  What are we to make of this?  What are
we to make of the whole trip?  What are we to make of
his "apology"? (which was more of an admission of evil
doing in the name of Jesus rather  than an apology.)

Second, There was a RW looking Rav that brought him to
the Kotel and spoke very positively about this Pope. 
His name was Rabbi (Michael?) Melchior. Who is Rabbi
Melchior? I believe a reporter mentioned that he is a
member of the Knesset. If so, which party?

Third, when the Pope was in Yad VaShem, there was an
all female choir singing solemn, hymn type songs such
as Ani Mamin.  There were solos performed.  In the
audience were many Orthodox rabbis and lay people
including the 2 Chief Rabbis.  Was Kol Isha not an
issue here?

Wassup Widat?

HM?


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