Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 463

Thursday, March 23 2000

• didyuk
• Diyyuk Redux
• Diyyuk Redux
• RE: Diyyuk Redux
• Perceptions of Jewish Power
• Re: Diyyuk Redux
• Hatzolah
• high ranking Catholic theologian
• How Can We etc. (aniyei ircha kodmim)
• Takanos
• Golus Mentality
• re:takanos
• Golus Mentality
• Re: Avodah V4 #462
• Re[2]: Diyyuk Redux
• Re[2]: The Holocaust,the Pope, and the responses of World Je
• Nusach Hatefilla
• Re: Melech Elyon - Evyon
• Re: Avodah V4 #462
• wedding takanos
• School tuition fees (was Takonos)

Gershon -- I'll do you one better -- how better Selichos but no Tachanun
morning Taanis Esther and Avinu Malkeinu by Mincha

RG Dubin wrote:

>>This happens all the time in my local minyan factory.   I think that what I 
saw there this Taanis Esther was a bit much,  though,  when someone came in for 
mincha and proceeded to put on talis and tefilin.  I
thought that was wrong,  especially in light of the fairly common hakpada of 
separating the tefilin wearers from the nonwearers on chol hamoed.>>

I was at that minyan and assumed that he missed Shacharis (presumably for a 
halachically valid reason).

I think RYBS used to attend a tefillin-wearing minyan on Chol HaMoed and not 
wear tefillin because there is a halachic reason not to wear tefillin (choleh 
me'ayim) even during regular chol.

Gil Student
gil.student@citicorp.com

RA Stein wrote:

>>I always thought (I could be wrong; wouldn't be the first time) that it was a 
davar pashut that the sh'liach tzibur ("ST") (and any mispallel saying kaddish) 
must foresake his own personal nusach and use that of the tzibur's.
IIRC, R' Moshe's minhag was to omit "Baruch Hashem L'olam..." in maariv. 
However, whenever R' Moshe was the ST, he_would_say it.>>

R' Moshe who?  Feinstein?  R. Hershel Schachter does not say it even when he is 
ST.  He just waits and then goes straight into kaddish.

Gil Student
gil.student@citicorp.com

Yes, R' Moshe Feinstein.  RH Shachter is certainly entitled to his opinion,
but anytime I've seen a ST do that, he usually gets into trouble with the
authorities afterwards.

KT
Aryeh
aes@ll-f.com 

-----Original Message-----
From: Gil.Student@citicorp.com [mailto:Gil.Student@citicorp.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2000 5:06 PM
To: avodah@aishdas.org; aes@ll-f.com
Subject: Diyyuk Redux


RA Stein wrote:

>>I always thought (I could be wrong; wouldn't be the first time) that it
was a 
davar pashut that the sh'liach tzibur ("ST") (and any mispallel saying
kaddish) 
must foresake his own personal nusach and use that of the tzibur's.
IIRC, R' Moshe's minhag was to omit "Baruch Hashem L'olam..." in maariv. 
However, whenever R' Moshe was the ST, he_would_say it.>>

R' Moshe who?  Feinstein?  R. Hershel Schachter does not say it even when he
is 
ST.  He just waits and then goes straight into kaddish.

Gil Student
gil.student@citicorp.com

Questions:

1)Does a persecuted people on the run that presents itself as having the where 
withal to offer bribes indicate they they poosses power or lack power?

2) Who spoke of chessed?  I referred to fear of Jewish retribution.

3) What prevented the Japanese from taking the money and STILL putting Jews into
camps?

4) What made the Japanes have "chsessed" (your words not mine) to Jews and 
still torture Aemrican GI pow's?  Did they fail to see how the Americans might 
react.

5) How did the Japanese view the American decision to focus the war upon Hitler 
instead of focusing on avenging Peral Harbor first

6) How was it the Japanes could be bribed and not the nazis?  Were Japanese 
less anal than Germans?

7) Should one rely upon anecdotal stories over historians? <smile>

Richard_wolpoe@ibi.com



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

You've made several fatal assumptions:

3) Not speaking with any of the Jewish refugees who escaped through Eastern 
Europe, and, Asia, and arriving in Shanghai. There have been books written on 
the subject with all attributing their survival to bribes, and, not Japanese 
chesed. The Japanese, and, Germans each had their own brand of brutality. 
While the Japanese weren't into murdering Jewish civilians, they were 
murdering American soldiers long before the parachuters hit the ground, which 
is against the Geneva Conference on engagement (like anyone follows that!) 
Barry Schwarz

On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 17:04:54 -0500 Gil.Student@citicorp.com writes:

<< was at that minyan and assumed that he missed Shacharis (presumably
for a halachically valid reason).>>

	Funny,  I didn't see you there <g>.

	I don't know if it is universal among Sefaradim,  but certainly the
Syrian community wears T&T at a taanis tzibur mincha.

<<I think RYBS used to attend a tefillin-wearing minyan on Chol HaMoed
and not wear tefillin because there is a halachic reason not to wear
tefillin (choleh me'ayim) even during regular chol.>>

	Most of the minyanim that I see separating the two groups are rov non
wearers.  There is no corresponding halachic reason to wear tefilin when
not obligated.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

I've been told that Hatzolah does not allow women to volunteer in their 
organization.  Can anyone confirm whether or not this is actually true, and 
if it is true, provide a reason why women are being excluded from this very 
fine organization.

It seems to me that rather than creating uncomfortable halachic issues, 
having women volunteer for Hatzolah could actually become a positive.  I'm 
certain that many women would be more comfortable having another woman attend 
to their needs in a time of emergency.  There also seems to be many other 
duties (driving an ambulance, handling calls, record keeping, etc.) that 
would not be construed as halachically problematic.

Are there any members of Hatzalah who might be able to enlighten me on this 
subject?

Michael Feldstein
Stamford, CT

> <<   that RYBS 
>  met secretly with a high ranking Catholic theologian >>
> I agree with your conclusion, but, isn't the phrase "high ranking Catholic 
> theologian" an oxymoron? Something akin to Holy, Roman, Empire, which wasn't 
> holy, wasn't Roman, and, surely wasn't an empire?

If the reference is to Cardinal Cushing, "high ranking" is surely the
appropriate word. "Theologian" is probably not; I know of no contribution
of his to the intellectual world of Catholicism. There are Catholic
priests who are serious philosophers and thinkers; there are prominent
Catholic priests who are primarily politicians. Cushing was one of the
latter.

There are also rabbis who are serious thinkers and others who are
primarily politicians. It is the latter type of rabbi who is probably most
prone to underestimate the first kind of Catholic. One of the least
dangers of such smugness on our part is that it makes us look like fools.

> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 10:44:25 -0500
> From: "David Glasner" <dglasner@ftc.gov>
> Subject: Re:  How Can We etc.  (aniyei irkha)
> 
> Carl Scherer wrote:
> 
> <<<
> But the Torah TELLS me that aniyei ircha kodmim, and as long as 
> the Torah tells me that, I could care less what the nations of the 
> galus think. 
> >>>
> 
> Can we please not confuse mitzvot d'oraita with mitzvot d'rabbanan?
> Remember Adam, Eve, and the serpent.

Where is the deRabbanan here? Giving tzdoka is a mitzva d'oraysa 
(nosone titein lo). Chazal are only telling us how the mitzva should 
be performed (aniyei ircha kodmim), which they learn from a pasuk 
(im kesef talveh).

> And, by the way, while we are on the subject, doesn't the 
> obligation to support aniyei irkha also include the non-Jewish poor?

Yes, together with aniyei Yisroel mipnei darchei shalom (Rambam 
Matnos Aniyim 7:7), based on a Gemara in Gittin 61a. Whether 
together means davka or lav davka is apparently a machlokes 
rishonim (too many m'koros to start looking up at midnight, but 
look at the m'koros and tziyunim in the Frankel Rambam in Matnos 
Aniyim 1:9).

> One more question.  Do you give exclusively to charities that 
> distribute funds to the poor (Jewish or gentile) of Jerusalem?

Are you asking *me personally* what I do? 

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:06:54 EST
> From: TROMBAEDU@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Takanos
> 
> In a message dated 3/23/00 12:07:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
> sherer@actcom.co.il writes:
> 
> << 
>  All of this has nothing to do with the fact that the opulence of 
>  simchas is an easy place to cut back on an extravagant 
>  expenditure. A week after the wedding, no one remembers how 
>  lavish it was anyway, because they have been to another wedding 
>  that is equally as lavish. Having a fancy wedding is not what most 
>  of us would consider a necessity like having toilets and sinks, or 
>  for that matter having a car (although if you are talking about driving 
>  a Cadillac, a Rolls Royce, a Jaguar or a customized van, I agree 
>  with you that someone on Yeshiva scholarships should not be 
>  driving those either). Your comparisons are a bit strained (to put it 
>  mildly). >>
> 
> Carl, you obviously have no idea of what Jews in America drive, or put on 
> their backs, for that matter.
> There are many frum Jew receiving scholarships for their children to go to 
> Yeshiva who vacation in Israel, the Bahamas, etc. Who when their children 
> learn in Eretz Yisrael, insist on flying them home for every little event, 
> plus Pesach. 

And I think that's wrong too. But obviously it's an order of 
magnitude less than a $100,000 wedding.

> I'm sorry, but when I deal with a customer, I do so with a clear conscience. 
> And believe me, I am very glad to offer discounts to those who are truly in 
> need. 

Explain something to me (and do this off list if you think you have 
to). I hadn't mentioned bands in the cost of weddings (maybe I'm 
naive, but I always thought the cost of a band paled next to the 
$200 per plate dinners). But I also always thought that you go to 
someone who brokers bands and say "I want an x-piece band." At 
least that's how it works here (or so I hear from the one guy I know 
here who does this stuff). If someone claims they can't afford it, I 
would think that the natural thing would be to suggest that they 
take one piece less. No?

But I will not have anyone driving a Ford Expedition harangue me about 
> the high costs of weddings. 

A Ford what? Never heard of that one....

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 11:04:27 -0500
> From: "David Glasner" <dglasner@ftc.gov>
> Subject: Re: golus mentality
> 
> Carl Scherer wrote:
> 
> <<<
> I don't know what the others meant by the term, but what I meant 
> by it was the following:
> 
> 1. Doing things (or not doing things) out of concern for what the 
> goyim will think.
> 
> 2. Acting (or omitting to act) because it is not in the best interests 
> of "humanity" even though it might be in the best interests of Jews.
> 
> 3. Acting (or omitting to act) in ways that do not reflect (or that 
> reflect a lack of concern for) the best interests of the Jewish 
> people. 
> 
> 4. [expletive deleted]

I don't recall using any expletives. Chas v'shalom. Why don't you 
write me privately and tell me why you think I used one.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Harry Maryles reacts to my comment about weddings and those who profit
from them by writing
"But why stop with weddings?  Why would anyone NEED a
private automobile.  Gasoline prices are so
exhorbident as well as all expenses related to the
automobile.  But keeping up with the Joneses demands
we not a car but a gas guzzling family VAN!!! Wouldn't
the public good be served by using public
transportation?  Think of all the resources that would
be available to fund Public Trans. if there was a
Takana against private ownership of automobiles. 

Have you considered the complete waste of money
jewelry is?  

Resteraunts? Humongous waste of money! 

Let's eliminate lawyers, or at least litigators. By
just mandating forced arbitration in litgation cases.
Equal representation will be acheived because neither
side will be represented.  Think of the savings.

We can save a fortune on bathroom fixtures (Now hasn't
THIS been a complete extravagance and waste.)  I think
a return to the outhouse of our great grand parents is
in order.  It was good enough for them and... it did
the job.  Think of the savings we could have on even
the most elementary plumbing fixtures.

Don't worry about the parnassah of restaraunt owners,
jewlers, plumbers, litigators, or automobile industry
imployees because... the greater good will be served. "

I don't know too many people going to the brink of bankruptcy in order to
own a car , to eat in a restaurant, or to have the benefits of indoor
plumbing.  I know of many who are at that brink because of the need to
make a simcha.  Thus, the cases RHM mentions do not require takanos,
while weddings do.

But I agree: should the situation with vehicle ownership reach the point
where the multitudes feel compelled by social pressure to keep up with
their wealthier neighbors, and a need for a takana is felt, it should
indeed outweigh the needs of the much smaller number of car dealers who
would be affected.

Another point: we are not discussing doing away with caterers,
photographers, musicians, florists, etc. *completely*.  All that is
considered is some kind of limitation on the amount of conspicuous
consumption that should be permitted at a simcha.  It may be of interest
to note (as I saw in a Yiddish sfer on Parshiyos Hashovua titled Fun
Unzer Alte Yiddishe Oytzer) that in Prague, where the Jewish community
had the right to impose a kahal tax, the degree of spending on a simcha
was tied to the amount of kahal tax paid. Perhaps that should be the
criterion: the amount one may spend on a wedding should be in proportion
to the baal simcha's annual tzedaka contribution.

As far as litigation is concerned, such a "takana" exists, made by none
other than HKBH. It's called issur of arkaos,
Sadya N. Targum


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> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 11:04:27 -0500
> From: "David Glasner" <dglasner@ftc.gov>
> Subject: Re: golus mentality

> Raiti shibush d'varim poh.
> 
> 1.  No doubt Moshe was laboring under a galus mentality when he
> challenged HKBH with the question:  Lamah yomru Mitzraim leimor
> ki b'ra'ah hotziam la-harog otam be-harim u-l'khalotam mei-al p'nei
> ha-adamah."   

See the Ohr HaChayim HaKadosh on that pasuk. Moshe 
Rabbeinu's argument (which HKB"H accepted) was that if Hashem 
killed off the Jewish people in the desert, there would be a chilul 
Hashem. 

I think that *Hashem* worrying about what the goyim will think is a 
lot different than *us* worrying what the goyim will think when 
Hashem has told us how He expects us to act.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

In a message dated 3/23/00 3:28:14 PM Central Standard Time, 
owner-avodah@aishdas.org writes:

<<  perhaps tikun olam is better. >>
only if you're a reform rabbi, drive a Mercedes to Temple on Shabbat, and, 
are too friendly with the president of the women's auxillary.
Barry

We're admonished not to change our nusach under any circumstances.

===> I nearly always follow the nusach of the kehillo for which I daven 
as a shatz . Saying kaddish imho is de facto serving as shatz for kaddish
I cannot speak to your minhag of never to change, but if that were true 
you would always need 9 others of the same nusahc in order to avoid 
others from changing....


 There are three shuls I can't go to for now because someone objected to 
my saying kaddish acording to my nusach. Since I'm not supposed to 
switch, nor supposed to antagnize, I just don't go. If, as a bar hiyyuv, 
I go to an Ashkenazi shul and am asked to be Sh"Z, the kehillah would 
have to agree to allow mw to pray in my nusach. So far none have.



> It's not in the Italian siddur, either. Never was.
> ==> is kabbalas Shabbos in the Italian Siddur? Is ana bekoach in there before 
> lecha dodi?


Yes, and yes. it has the tehillim for the six days before Mizmor 
Ledavid, but says "Alcuni cominciano qui" (Sefaradim start here).

===> ana bekoach is kabbalistic and is not in the German siddur for kabbalas 
Shabbos. As best I understand this, it was omitted intentionally for that 
reason.

The Maharil admonishes a shliach tzibbur not to deviate from the accpeted 
melodies at least insofar as the Yamim Noraim go. The determining factor of 
minhag seems to be base upon the community NOT The individula accordign tho the 
maharil.

My best understanding is that Ahsseknazim allowed private deviations and in that
sense was flexibl - if the deviation had a basis.  But to impose a deviatin by 
force upon a tzibbur is a big no-no. In other words, to have an inidvidual add 
morid hatal or v'yatamzch in an ashekanaiz community would run counter this 
maharil...

But I would not expect that the mahairl cared about morid hatal in one's private
shmoneh esrai, I don't think he thought it was relevant.

Richard_wolpoe@ibi.com

I believe that Jabotinsky took it seriously much earlier than 1939

Roman Wishniak (sp?) Author or the Last Jews of Eastern Europe {I believe} took 
it very seriously.  He did a photojounral of all the shtetls in their final 
months before WWII. 

Also note that many German Jews who DID flee naziism still perished because they
only fled as far as Poland, France or Holland.  E.G. Anne Frank's family fled to
Holland but did not flee far enough.

Question: How many Jews took it seriously yet still expected a revach v'hatzala 
as in Purim, and therefore were upnprepared to see the gezeriah actually carried
out in fact?

richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

I 've watch this trend develope and I think that there are a few points worth 
adding. Hitler Ymach smo vzico spoke to the Reichstag in 1939 and prerdicted 
that even if Germany would lose the war, European jewry would be destroyed. 
No body took this threat seriously.
                                                Zeliglaw@aol.com
                                                Steven Brizel

(Maharashdam is Rabbi Shmuel de Modina of Turkey, 1600's).

Rav Moshe Feinstein also held that the Chasidim were wrong when they
changed their Nusach.  This was also the opinion of the Chatam Sofer
(Orach Chaim 1:16).  To the Chatam Sofer,  nusach ashkenaz has mystical
meanings as well. He claims that the Ari was Sefardi (???) and therefore
revealed the secrets of their nusach;  if there had been a person of the
Ari's stature in Ashkenaz, that person would have revealed the secrets
that are inherent in the words of Nusach Ashkenaz.

The idea of the 12 gates is stated in Pri Eitz Hachaim, by R' Chaim
Vital (Shaar Hatefilla Perek Alef).  (In the name of the Ari, of
course).  Each gate corresponds to one shevet.  Since each individual
does not know which shevet he is from, and tefilla can only ascend
through the "right" shaar, he should not deviate from his own minhag.
Pri Megadim inferred from here that one should not change his nusach.
But among Chasidim, there developed the idea of a "Shaar Hakollel,"  a
thirteenth and universal gate.  The Maggid of Mezeritch (see Maggid
Devarav Le'Yaakov) says that in the days when people knew their shevet,
it was proper not to change one's nusach.  However, since we no longer
know, the Ari created a new nusach by amalgamating several existing
nuschaot.  The Ari specifically intended that this new nusach be adopted
by anyone who did not know his shevet.  Nusach Haari is the Shaar
Hakollel--it encompasses all 12 shearim.
Rav Chaim Tzanzer concedes that Nusach Ashnenaz has kabbalistic
meanings, and of course Rashi, Baalei Hatosafot and their talmidim
understood these meanings.  He contends that the Besht adopted Nusach
Ari because he saw that he and many of his contemporaries had a "shoresh
neshama" that was not from shaar Nusach Askkenaz.

Daniel

Footnote:  German congregations omit ALL Melech Evyon strophes

Richard_wolpoe@ibi.com


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Melech Elyon - Evyon 

R;' ETeitz wrote: 
Similar to Melech Elyon and melech evyon on Rosh
Hashanah, though we apparently omit most of the evyon paragraphs. I 
suspect that is the reason the stanzas begin with every *other* letter of 
the alef-bais.)

In Goldschmidt's R"H and Y"K machzorim you can find all the alternating  Elyon a
nd 
Evyon stanzas that we skip today.

Sh. Bu. Sameah,

David

In a message dated 3/23/00 3:28:14 PM Central Standard Time, 
owner-avodah@aishdas.org writes:

<< From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
 Subject: Re[2]: Avodah V4 #459 
 
 Mis-understanding the reality and varieties of anti-semitism can also can be 
 fatal.
 Konwing which anti-semties will take bribes and which will not can be fatal
 considering hitler, mussloini and franko as all equals in fascism cna be 
fatal, 
 too
 btw see R. Tokayers book "The Fuku Plan" which gives another fictionalized 
spin 
 on this
  >>
I'm not sure that I have a vested interest in analyzing various types, and, 
levels of Anti-Jewish behavior. If one is a student of the major churbanot 
that have been inflicted on us, there is a thread of our own complicity 
evident in each event. Not to imply that we brought on the brutality, and, 
inhuman elements by our enemies, but, rather that we were / are remiss in 
being all that we should be, regarding Avodahs Hashem, and, Ahavat Yisrael. 
Check it out, and, you'll find, as I, and, many others have the weaknesses in 
each churban. It's not necessary to chase flies about the pope, his avodah 
zorah, and, pasul followers, or which enemy is painting a swastika on which 
garage door. If we do what is expected, we'll be protected, if not......you 
know the rest.
Barry Schwarz

TROMBAEDU wrote:           Subject: Re: wedding takanos
  >>sba@blaze.net.au writes:   .. some storekeepers complained to the
  >>Rosh Bes Din....that this shop will bankrupt them. He answered:
  >>"In that case, you will also be able to purchase there..."

>Interesting story. Insensitive remark...But in a way very astute.... I
>would prefer to continue to do business then to receive the Tzedaka.

AFAIK all storekeepers survived BH.

I heard about a storekeeper who complained to the Gerer
Rebbe the Beis Yisroel zt"l about a new competitor who was
taking away his Parnoso. The Rebbe told him: "Koinim ken men
tzunemen - ober nisht Parnosso..."

S B Abeles

From Shlomo B Abeles

>TROMBAEDU wrote:         Subject: Re: Takanos
>Carl, you obviously have no idea of what Jews in America drive...
>There are many frum Jew receiving scholarships for their children to go to
>Yeshiva who vacation in Israel, the Bahamas, etc. Who when their children
>learn in Eretz Yisrael, insist on flying them home for every little event, plus Pesach.

I am on the tuition fees sub-committee of a school and over
the past 2 years we have developed a 4-page questionnaire
or parents who request  lower (which we call "deferred") fees.

Amongst questions asked are details of vacations taken both locally
and overseas by family members in the past 3 years, details of car purchases,
costs of children studying overseas etc. Also costs of children's
extracurricular activities/lessons eg sports, music, art etc.

We also ask details of any windfall income (in the past 3 years)
including inheritances etc.

They are also asked about their Tzedoko and Maaser habits (and
what percentage they give/are prepared to give - to our school).

Although some (surprisingly few)  have claimed that the questions are "intrusive"
they were mostly formulated after hearing complaints from full-fee payers:
"How come so and so can't pay fees but they can afford a new
car/overseas trips/$10,000 pa for seminary fees etc?"

Admittedly in a small Kehilla - where we generally know
the situation of most people - it is easier to ensure compliance -
but we have also found that some parents,
rather than complete the form - suddenly agree to pay full tuition!

BTW we also request an undertaking that if and when their financial
situation improves - all deferred fees will be repaid
IOW we are not "mevahter" on any monies - and expect payment
eventually - even after children ahve left the school

(Lest you get the wrong impression, we are not a group of hard hearted tightfists.
Close to 50% of students are still on between 50-90% discounts.
But we hope that we have cleaned up most of the types that JH complains about.)

A Guten Shabbos

S B ABELES

*********************


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