Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 461

Thursday, March 23 2000

• Re: Avodah V4 #459
• Re:The Holocaust,the Pope, and the responses of World Jewry
• shalom
• [none]
• Re: takanos
• Re: Avodah V4 #460
• Takanos
• RE: How can we condemn the church if we do not live up to atleastthe same s...
• Re: Takanos
• Re: Diyyuk Redux
• Re: Diyyuk Redux
• RE: Golus Mentality
• Re: Diyyuk Redux
• berachah at the seder
• maror v horseradish
• Parshas Tzav
• Kom Rabba v'Shochtei l'Reb Zeira
• Re: Jewish ice cream flavors

In a message dated 3/22/00 3:42:34 PM Central Standard Time, 
owner-avodah@aishdas.org writes:

<< The PERCEPTION is that Jews  - given the chance - might rise up and kill.
 
 Example: There was a survey - which I read during the 1970's -  
 
 Lest you judge this as ridiculous. I once asked my history professor  - 
Robert 
 Goldberg -  as to how it miraculously came about that the Japanes who were 
 allied with Hitler - could save Jews during WWII! It made no sense.  

You've made several fatal assumptions:

1) Trusting the credibility/validity of the results of ANY survey, which are 
summarily manipulated, and, gerrymandered to reflect the results that the 
baal ha'survey wants it to reflect;
2) Trusting the lucidity of most history professors, and;
3) Not speaking with any of the Jewish refugees who escaped through Eastern 
Europe, and, Asia, and arriving in Shanghai. There have been books written on 
the subject with all attributing their survival to bribes, and, not Japanese 
chesed. The Japanese, and, Germans each had their own brand of brutality. 
While the Japanese weren't into murdering Jewish civilians, they were 
murdering American soldiers long before the parachuters hit the ground, which 
is against the Geneva Conference on engagement (like anyone follows that!)
Barry Schwarz

I 've watch this trend develope and I think that there are a few points worth 
adding. Hitler Ymach smo vzico spoke to the Reichstag in 1939 and prerdicted 
that even if Germany would lose the war, European jewry would be destroyed. No
body took this threat seriously. After the war, we learned that the Germans 
were willing to let theeir troops sit on the raildoad tracks in order to 
implement the Fianl Solution. During the war, American Jewry agreed with 
FDR's objective of fighting a successful war . The records of our entire 
community was marked by machlokes and a real fear of domestic antoi-Semitism 
that we poo poo  now in our splendid homes.That's 20-20 hindsight.The record 
of the Yishuv is also troubling.Tom Segev's The Seventh Miollion suggests 
that The Zionist leadership considered European Jewry as expendable kdoshim 
in the battle for a post war state. It's ironic that a secular Historian , 
Rav Hutner Zt'l and the Satmar Rav Zt'l reached the identical conclusion!
 As to the wartime leadership of the RC Church, it protected its own turf by 
signing the concordats with Italy and Germany . I think that it's obvious to 
all that it lacked moral stature. On the Church at the present, I think that 
we could all benefit by reading "Confrontation"by RYBS. It is still a 
definite statement of how to deal with a post Vatican 2 Church-a church that 
has come a long way but has probably exhausted itself because there is no 
need to discuss theological issues . I heard from RFabian Schonfeld that RYBS 
met secretly with a high ranking Catholic theologian( Cushing?) and was 
assured that the Vatican recognized the rights of Jews to build a state in 
EY, would renounce anti Semitism but would not recognize our claims to build 
a Bais HaMikdash in Yerushalim. RYBS responded that if the church didn't 
recognize this, it had reccognized nothing! Rabbosai, Why should any of us be 
surprised or shocked by the actions of the Church?I'm not.
                                                Zeliglaw@aol.com
                                                Steven Brizel

richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

>EG if ploni is marbe shalom he might be a Talmid 
>Chacham but if he is not, we know he cannot be".

What about "aizeh hu hacham, halomeid michol adam"?
That sounds more descriptive; the way of a hacham (see Rashi), and thus 
worthy to be praised for his hachma (see Bartenura).
Maybe the other maimra is a metaphysical fact, not something that can be 
directly observed or quantified.  ie, the existence of a talmud hacham, or 
his torah learning, increases the shalom (peace? completeness?) in the 
(entire? Jewish?) world.

Leah Greenstein

Does anyone know if the hakdama to the Rambam's perush on mishnayos is
available in English?

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

Harry, me thinks now you are really going off the deep end. You know how
I disagree with you on this score and I have stayed out of this; but
this post is just oo much.
Harry Maryles wrote:

> --- sadya n targum <targum1@juno.com> wrote:
> > When mention was made about takanos for minimizing
> > wedding expenses,
> > attention was called to those who are in the simcha
> > business.
>
> Have you considered the complete waste of money
> jewelry is?
> Nothin wrong with selling jewelry to nochrim. I do agree that it is a
> waste that our JAPs need a bigger diamond. Did you know that the
> average non-Jewish engagement is about one-fifth the size of what your
> Jewish girls wants and must have. I am in the business and would be
> the first one to support a takanah.
>

> Resteraunts? Humongous waste of money!
>

How is that? There are hardworking people who hold down two jobs and
more so that they can pay for what they overspent on that simcha and now
mabe they don't have time to cook all their meals. So they eat in a
restaurant and pay for the food, the service and a profit to the owner.
That's not like having a bigger band, a bigger shmorg, a fancier meal,
more flowers, more photographers, more video operators, flying in more
and bigger entertainers etc from the big apple.

>
> Let's eliminate lawyers, or at least litigators. By
> just mandating forced arbitration in litgation cases.
> Equal representation will be acheived because neither
> side will be represented.  Think of the savings.
>
> We can save a fortune on bathroom fixtures (Now hasn't
> THIS been a complete extravagance and waste.)  I think
> a return to the outhouse of our great grand parents is
> in order.  It was good enough for them and... it did
> the job.  Think of the savings we could have on even
> the most elementary plumbing fixtures.
>
> Don't worry about the parnassah of restaraunt owners,
> jewlers, plumbers, litigators, or automobile industry
> imployees because... the greater good will be served.
>
> HM

I don't believe you mean this. Surely your kidding. Right?
kt
steve

>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://im.yahoo.com

> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 19:47:28 EST
> From: DFinchPC@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Eleanor Roosevelt (was How Can We Condemn Etc.)
> 
> In a message dated 3/22/00 4:49:11 PM US Central Standard Time, 
> sherer@actcom.co.il writes:
> 
> << Actually AFAIK CDRG only applies to letters written by Jews, and 
>  the laws of Lashon Hara only apply to speaking about a Jew who is 
>  oseh ma'aseh amcha (although we are generally required to be dan 
>  le'kaf zchus regarding whether a Jew is an oseh ma'aseh amcha).
>   >>
>  
> What about Goyim who received honorary degrees from YU?

AFAIK receiving a degree from YU does not change the Halacha.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:55:00 -0800 (PST)
> From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
> Subject: re:takanos

> But why stop with weddings?  Why would anyone NEED a
> private automobile.  Gasoline prices are so
> exhorbident as well as all expenses related to the
> automobile.  

Actually, most of the people in Eretz Yisrael to whom the takanos 
are directed do not own cars. One of the amazing things about my 
neighborhood is that parking is rarely a hassle. Of course our gas 
prices are higher than yours (about $4 a gallon these days) and our 
car prices are much higher than yours, but the cost of purchasing a 
car pales by comparison to the cost of an American wedding, or for 
that matter the cost of an Israeli wedding plus an apartment.

But keeping up with the Joneses demands
> we not a car but a gas guzzling family VAN!!! Wouldn't
> the public good be served by using public
> transportation?  Think of all the resources that would
> be available to fund Public Trans. if there was a
> Takana against private ownership of automobiles. 

Yes, if someone cannot afford it, they should not be buying a van 
(or a car for that matter). But for most of us, at least outside of 
Israel, the cost of a car versus the cost of the amount of time we 
save by having a car is an easy tradeoff. Besides, most people 
don't buy a new car every other year, the cost of a car pales by 
comparison of the cost of a simcha, and the benefits of having a 
car extend far beyond the one night of the simcha. You are 
comparing apples and oranges.

> Have you considered the complete waste of money
> jewelry is?  

Yes, it is. But you can only wear so much of it at once.

> Resteraunts? Humongous waste of money! 

But you don't have to go to restaurants to keep with the Joneses or 
the Cohens; they don't even know that you are going. I have been 
in some very expensive restaurants - I have never been in one 
where the cost was $200 a plate; let alone one where I was treating 
500 people.

> Let's eliminate lawyers, 

Shakespeare tried that one too. We had T-Shirts that said that in 
law school :-) 

or at least litigators. By
> just mandating forced arbitration in litgation cases.
> Equal representation will be acheived because neither
> side will be represented.  Think of the savings.

I'm not sure I'm a nogea badavar (I'm not a litigator), but at the risk 
that I am, I will not comment.

> We can save a fortune on bathroom fixtures (Now hasn't
> THIS been a complete extravagance and waste.)  I think
> a return to the outhouse of our great grand parents is
> in order.  It was good enough for them and... it did
> the job.  Think of the savings we could have on even
> the most elementary plumbing fixtures.

Most of us don't spend all that much on bathroom pictures. Unless 
of course you have an ivory toilet....

> Don't worry about the parnassah of restaraunt owners,
> jewlers, plumbers, litigators, or automobile industry
> imployees because... the greater good will be served. 

All of this has nothing to do with the fact that the opulence of 
simchas is an easy place to cut back on an extravagant 
expenditure. A week after the wedding, no one remembers how 
lavish it was anyway, because they have been to another wedding 
that is equally as lavish. Having a fancy wedding is not what most 
of us would consider a necessity like having toilets and sinks, or 
for that matter having a car (although if you are talking about driving 
a Cadillac, a Rolls Royce, a Jaguar or a customized van, I agree 
with you that someone on Yeshiva scholarships should not be 
driving those either). Your comparisons are a bit strained (to put it 
mildly).

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

>
> "American" is the modifying adjective to the more
> important noun, "Jew".

And of course peole *always* speak grammatically.

My comment was *not* a grammatical analysis -- but more of an observation of
usage

(in the same way that a freudian slip is revealing)

Akiva


A reality check a day keeps
the delusions at bay (Gila Atwood)

===========================
Akiva Atwood, POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

This is what I get for typing too fast....

On 23 Mar 00, at 7:05, Carl and Adina Sherer wrote:

> > We can save a fortune on bathroom fixtures (Now hasn't
> > THIS been a complete extravagance and waste.)  I think
> > a return to the outhouse of our great grand parents is
> > in order.  It was good enough for them and... it did
> > the job.  Think of the savings we could have on even
> > the most elementary plumbing fixtures.
> 
> Most of us don't spend all that much on bathroom pictures. 

That should have said "fixtures." 

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

MPoppers@kayescholer.com wrote:


> 
> In Avodah 4#453, Sam replied:
> > R' Poppers answer was good for weekdays,
> but didn't help me with Shabbat. <


> As I wrote to you and RWolpoe privately on 17Mar, "The
> reason only applied to weekday shacharis, probably because
> the edict was only enforced at that time (i.e the guards who
> left [before the minyonim 'snuck in' another k'dushah] never
> came back for Minchah :-)."  Perhaps you didn't understand
> the implication: we should _not_ be saying these verses out loud
> on the days (including Shabbos) mentioned by Richard in
> his original post.


You're right. I didn't understand the implication. So, now help me find
reasons why we do. I've been looking for anyone who says not to, and and
no-one does besides KAJ, for which I've not had a chance to look at the
sources given by R' Walpoe.

Abudarham, by the way, on Arvit Mozaei Shabbat, says to say kedushah. He
does not say "belahash", just "ve'omer aharav seder kedushah."


---sam

richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:



> ===>1) R. Hamburg's Shroshei Minhag Ashkenaz
> 2) Minhag Frankfurt (hard to find)
> 3) Minhag KAJ.

Thank you. I hope I can find them.



> 1)Most kehillos will certainly not hesitate to change editions of a siddur - say
> from Birnbaum to Artscroll, even tho' this will effectively change wrods here
> and there.  KAJ for exmpale has its own edition of the siddur for the sheliach
> taibbur, which follows its minhag
> 
> 2) My shul in Teaneck WAS nusach sefard and is now nusach ashkenaz.  IOW
> Changing its nusach was  no big deal.  To be fair, the shul has set minhagim and
> nusach and much of it is copied into the margins of the chazan's artscroll
> siddur
> 
> 3) when German kehillos were overrun by non-Germans, they generally ousted the
> old German Minhagim evne tho' keeping the name and charter of the shul the
> same... IOW it was a big deal for a german Kehillo to change a minhag but not
> for the non-Germans who superceded them...



This is all very interesting. I don't understand it a bit, but I find it
fascinating. In the cases you cite, did the entire kehillah change? The
physical people, I mean. Were all the older members gone, or just silent
about it?

We're admonished not to change our nusach under any circumstances. There
are three shuls I can't go to for now because someone objected to my
saying kaddish acording to my nusach. Since I'm not supposed to switch,
nor supposed to antagnize, I just don't go. If, as a bar hiyyuv, I go to
an Ashkenazi shul and am asked to be Sh"Z, the kehillah would have to
agree to allow mw to pray in my nusach. So far none have.



> It's not in the Italian siddur, either. Never was.
> ==> is kabbalas Shabbos in the Italian Siddur? Is ana bekoach in there before
> lecha dodi?


Yes, and yes. it has the tehillim for the six days before Mizmor
Ledavid, but says "Alcuni cominciano qui" (Sefaradim start here).


> > My impression is that brich shmei, ana bekoach and a few
> > others are omitted DAVKA following shabtai zvi.  There are many who agree with
> > me on this, but no one has a clear-cut source yet. 


I would use the Italian siddur as a source against. That is, Brich
Shemeh was added later and not adopted by them, and perhaps not by KAJ.



> ==>Question: Did Italians move Kabbalah "underground" as a result of SZ?  fwiw,
> Germans did.


Not that I know of. My mother is Sicilian, but I don't know enough to
say anything definitive, and she wouldn't know.


---sam.

I would define Golus Mentality as a non-Jewish Weltanshaung (World-view).

It is a fact (though not Politically Correct) that different peoples/nations
perceive the world in *different* ways, and have different values. (The
West's inability to understand the Arab Mind is a classic example).

When Am Yisrael left Mitzraim, they achieved a unified world-view, a
*Jewish* worldview. *Every* factor and event in the life of a Jew was
perceived through that view (through those spectacles, so to speak).

(As an example -- Tuma/Tahara. During the period of the Shoftim/Bayis Rishon
*every* Jew was able to perceive it. Every Jew was able to perceive the
*spiritual* effect of chet. Why? Because they looked at the world in those
terms -- and were therefore sensitive to it)

One function of the 40 years in the midbar was to strengthen that cohesive
worldview.

However, once Am Yisrael settled the land, foreign ways of thinking
(concepts) started their "attack" on the Jewish worldview. As these foreign
concepts crept in, they weakened or replaced the "Jewish" concepts.

(The meaning of "Kedusha", for example, is not "Holiness").

Once Jews started thinking in non-Jewish terms, Golus Mentality  started.

A Pure Jewish Mentality would *only* think in terms of Choshen Mishpat for
litigation -- Golus Mentality would think about courts and secular law, at
least as an option.

A Pure Jewish Mentality, following the lines of "Kol Yisrael Arevim", would
cause a Jew to refuse to sell an item or perform a service for a Jew who
could not honestly afford it (Expensive Weddings, for example).

It's obvious that almost every Jew for millenia has had *some* Golus
Mentality. The trick in in being aware that it exists, in trying to minimize
it, and in knowing when one's actions are a result of it.

Keep in mind that the first ghettos (13th century Venice, I believe) were
formed *voluntarily* by the Jewish community in order to isolate themselves
from the Goyim around them.


Akiva

On 23 Mar 00, at 1:23, sambo@charm.net wrote:

> We're admonished not to change our nusach under any circumstances.

When you say "we're" do you mean Jews in general or Eidot 
HaMizrach in particular? I always understood "al titosh Toras 
emecha" as (amongst other things) telling all Jews that they should 
not change their nusach, an explanation I heard from Rav Aaron 
Lichtenstein. Is that how you understand it as well?

> There are three shuls I can't go to for now because someone objected
> to my saying kaddish acording to my nusach. Since I'm not supposed to
> switch, nor supposed to antagnize, I just don't go. If, as a bar
> hiyyuv, I go to an Ashkenazi shul and am asked to be Sh"Z, the
> kehillah would have to agree to allow mw to pray in my nusach. So far
> none have.

This is interesting because I daven in a Nusach Ashkenaz shul, 
and from time to time (not infrequently) someone will get up and 
say Kaddish using the Nussach of Eidot HaMizrach or Nussach 
Sfard. In all my time in Israel, I have only davened regularly in one 
(Ashkenaz) shul that had a hakpada about it (and even that was a 
notice that was strategically placed in a couple of places in the 
shul asking that people use Nussach Ashkenaz for saying 
Kaddish). Yet I cannot recall ever seeing someone say Kaddish 
using Nussach Ashkenaz in a Sfardi or Eidot HaMizrach shul (my 
father-in-law used to be the Rav in a Persian shul, so I have 
davened a fair amount in Eidot HaMizrach shuls. There were 
always jokes in the family how whenever anyone other than my 
father-in-law - who became accustomed to the Nussach - davened 
from the amud, we would have to be careful never to look up from 
the siddur). Are the Sfardi poskim more makpid about only using 
your own Nussach than are the Ashkenazi poskim?

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

> 
> The article is in vol. 23 (5751).  The machlokes Rambam/Chachmei Luneil is in 
> Hilchos Milah about making a berachah on the milah of an androginas.  See the 
> Kessef Mishneh.  See also Chiddushei R. Chaim HeLevi (Soloveitchik) on Hilchos 
> Yom Tov.
> 
> I believe the issue is the ORIGINAL takkanah of Yom Tov Sheini (before the 
> calendar was established) and whether it was to act out of safek or an actual 
> full-blown takkanah to keep a second day of Yom Tov because there was an issue 
> of safek.  Based on the second sevarah there is a vadai chiyuv which is why we 
> can make berachos.
> 

I do not have access to the article in Bet Yitzchak. However, I did look
at Chiddushei R. Chaim HeLevi and he seems to be talking about the
present takana and not the status before the fixed calendar especially as
he taking about the Rambam who paskens for our days.

I looked at the enclyopedia talmudit and they bring several shitot rishonim.
The question of saying berachot is not discussed explicitly
Again, I am only discussing the original status not the present status.

1. The original two day yomtov in far away places was a real Biblical safek
   like any other biblical safek and all the usual rules apply.
   There is also a Yerushalmi that one who did work on either day of yomtov
   could not be punished because it is hatraas safek.
   I assume according to this shitah that one would not say berachot at the seder.

2. I relies on the majority of the months to establish the "main" day.
   Either that Elul is usually 29 days or even that Adar is usually 29 days.
   (Adar is actually another sub-machloket within this shitah)
   This day is treated as "vadai" and the other day is held only because of
   safek.
   According to this shita it is possible that one would say a beracha.

3. According to the Torah each community can count their days to establish
   Yomtov from the Torah.
   According to this shita one treats the first day of yomtov as a full
   yomtov for all applications.

There are various opinions as to when the 2 day custom began some going
back to Yehoshua.

kol tuv,
Eli Turkel

MBernet wrote:        Subject:    Re: maror v horseradish
>     ..... but I always thought that she'ar yeraqot in the MahNishtanah
>made it clear that it had to be a leafy vegetable or the leafy part of a vegetable;

*Shebchol Haleilos* onu ochlin "She'ar yeraqot "

>richard_wolpoe              Subject: Re: Parshas Tzav

>fwiw the hakdomo in the Artsroll Ba'al haTurim descibes Gematra in detail.
>It seems that the word itself can be counted as 1. So Tzav is 96 PLUS 1 = 97.

OK! But the Chumash says that there are Tzadi Vov Pesukim - when there is really 97...
And BTW do any other of the Gematria's (at the end of Sidra's) need complicated methods of
calculation?

From S B Abeles
>Micha Berger wrote:             Subject: Re: ve-laharog
>Rabba and Rabbi Zeira made a Purim feast ...They got drunk..... Rabba....slaughtered
>Rabbi Zeira. The next day, [Rabba]prayed for mercy and [Rabbi Zeira] was revived.
>The next year, [Rabba] said to [Rabbi Zeira], "Come.. and we will make a Purim feast,....
>He replied..."Not ...every time can you expect  a miracle."

I remember some years ago seeing a beautiful pshat from the
Lubavitcher Rebbe zt''l on this puzzling Gemoro.

The Chasam Sofer zt'l on Chulin (17b) has a "Purim Torah" from his Rebbe the Haflo'oh
using the above Gemoro to explain "Chidudo Kodem L'libuno".

SHLOMO B ABELES

this was forwarded me -vanilla- as is w/o sheim omro. 

All I can see is that bigsan and seresh must have been behind the plot to 
"berry" the author's name

-Wally Cleaver


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Jewish ice cream flavors 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    3/22/2000 8:04 PM


        Anent R' Richard Wolpoe's post from Monday about Jewish ice cream 
flavors -- this has been circulating on the Internet, but before that, these 
flavors (and about 70 more) were published in _Response_ magazine in its 
Winter 1975-76 issue.  Since a number of the flavors listed there were my 
contributions (including Balakberry, Molly Pecan, and Wailing Walnut, which 
were in his list, but also including Chocolate Ribbon Ha'olamim, and M'lo Kol 
Ha'aretz Avocado), I treasure the issue.

        The _Response_ article gave appropriate credit to the father of 
multiple flavors, namely the "Gaon of V'nila"; you should give due credit to 
_Response_.

                Richard Friedman

*********************


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