Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 433

Tuesday, March 14 2000

• Re: The Pope
• RE: The Holocaust and the Pope (and the RW)
• Toldos Aharon
• Re: Avodah V4 #432
• matbeah
• The Holocaust and the Pope (and the RW)
• Chazeres vs. Maror
• Toldot Ahron
• Aliya and Moshiach
• Returning to Israel with converted girlfriend and a baby
• Re: Nissan
• Re: dina dmalchuta and hasagat gvul
• RE: Avodah V4 #431
• Re: birkhat ha-gomeil
• Proper Jewish Fashion
• Re: Chazeres vs. Maror
• Re: Avodah V4 #431-humor alert
• re: Clinton's eulogy for YR
• Re[2]: Chazeres vs. Maror
• RE: Avodah V4 #432
• Re: Ayin Tachas Ayin

In a message dated 3/13/00 10:18:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
mosherudner@hotmail.com writes:

>  Jews who see the definition of Jewishness as "one who is not a 
>  Christian" might be offended

Uminyono Dyomah, Kol Hakofer Bavodah Zara Nikra Yehudi.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

> since the Vatican refuses to open up its archives.

Not true -- their archives are open to legitimate researchers. (I know two
Orthodox Rabbis, both historians by profession, who had full access to the
vatican archives in the early 80s)

Akiva

From Shlomo B Abeles <sba@blaze.net.au>

>moshe rudner wrote:
>Subject: Toldot Ahron
>... Toldot Ahron is the most noneuropean of any Chassidut in Israel.
>They were established before the Holocaust/Churban Europe and I doubt whether there are too many
Holocaust
>survivors in their ranks.

AFAIK Toldos Aharon (or the Reb Arelech as they are known in J.) started from a very
small base immediately after the war.
Many suffered the horrors of Auschwitz whilst others who arrived in EY before the war had lost
families in the Holocaust. The Rebbe himself  (R. A Y Kohn zt'l) lost his entire family (except for
a sister).
(There are several Sabra families as well.)

Incidentally, some years ago,  I davened in TA one Yom Tov and the huge Bes Hamedrash with over 500
taleisim and hundreds of boys cleared out for Yizkor.  My cousin (one of the originals - "fin der
heim") pointed to the couple of dozen remaining mispallelim and said to me "Mit Di Yidden Hot Men
Ongehoiben Toldos Aharon"

SBA

> 
> > But I can not figure out what is so heilig (holy) about the 
> >  way people dressed in the 19th century.
> >  
> Shloi Shinu Es Lvushom, (see Michlol for Mokor, but nonetheless it is a 
> Loshon Hamrgual).
> 
Of course their clothing was not original either. That is not how the rishonim
dressed.

Eli Turkel

Reb Micha wrote, "But an American 50 cent peice doesn't have 50 cents worth of 
metal in it.(As was a half-shekel.) It isn't even backed by 50 cents worth of 
metal in Fort Knox. American currency's only value is in consensus and faith 
in the gov't that coins it."
I just wonder exactly what is "intrinsic value"  why would our arbitrary 
"faith" in the value of silver be considered "intrinsic value" and our faith 
in the US Government be considered only value by consensus.  Isn't the value 
of silver itself only because of a consensus?
Shaul Weinreb

> From: Gil.Student@citicorp.com

> RR Wolpoe wrote:
> 
> >>R. Schwab - and I would guess other "rw'ers" - hold that Tisha B'av is THE day
> to commemorate the observence of the holocast.  That the shoah is a direct 
> result of the events of that day, the meraglim the churban, etc.>>
> 
> Yet throughout history Jews have appointed other days to commemorate tragedies. 
> The most prominent in pre-Holocaust history was Tach VeTat 

How widely was that observed? AFAIK no day other than Tisha 
b'Av has been as widely observed as 27 Nissan. I think it has more 
to do with the fact that it came out of the State of Israel than 
anything else.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

> From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
> 
> Someone asked me wrt to the seder plate, why do we have 2 slots one for chazeres
> and 1 for marror?
> 
> I naswerd that "afaik we use marror twice, once for marror and once for 
> koreich..."
> 
> But I still could not come up with a reason as to why one is called chazeres and
> one is called marror...after all it could have been called something like marror
> rishon and marror sheini...
> 
> Any comments or mar'ei mekmomos that would help to clarify this?

FWIW my shver's minhag (which I have adopted) is to use the 
"maror" (consisting of chunks of horseradish) for Korech, and to 
use ground horseradish (chazeres) for maror.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

> From: "Akiva Atwood" <atwood@netvision.net.il>
> Subject: RE: Toldot Ahron
> 
> > My friend, I have no idea where you get this from.
> 
> 7 years of davenning their daily?
> 
> > Toldot Ahron is the most
> > noneuropean of any Chassidut in Israel. They were established
> > before the
> > Holocaust/Churban Europe and I doubt whether there are too
> > many Holocaust survivors in their ranks.
> 
> They were founded *in Hungary* -- when R' Aharon Roth came to Eretz Yisrael
> not all of the chevra came with him. Those who stayed in Hungary either
> perished in the Shoah or came to E.Y. after the war. Those are the members
> I'm talking about (who, by merit of being amongst the first members of the
> chevra, are also the oldest members of the chevra today).

Can you talk about the background of Toldos Aharon a bit? I was 
under the impression (despite their Chasidic appearance) that they 
were the offspring of the original talmidim of the Gra who came here 
in the 18th century.

TIA.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

> From: SBA <sba@blaze.net.au>

> >From Shlomo B Abeles <sba@blaze.net.au>
> 
> Danny Schoemann wrote:
> Subject: Aliya and Moshiach
> 
> >.....once Moshiach comes, you won't be able to
> >just get on a plane, arrive in Israel and live happily ever
> >after....You will still have to worry about parnoso.... chinuch, housing, transport ...
> 
> >...by the time you've thought about it, all the houses on your block are already for sale - how
> >will you pay for the trip, the moving, the new business? So,
> >do you opt for arriving as a pauper to greet Moshiach...
> 
> In response to this and Carl Sherer's recent exhortations
> to "beat the rush" and make Aliyah now, thus saving ourselves from all the
> hassles, let me quote a well-known Chazal (see Michtav M'Eliyoho V4 130)
> - - Asido Eretz Yisroel Shtispashet B'chol H'arotzos. which means that even
> the US and Australia will be part of  a world-wide Eretz Yisroel.
> 
> It seems that this Chazal is based on a (very interesting) Yalkut Shimoni (503?)
> which also states that every Shabbos and Rosh Chodesh clouds will bring klall yisroel from their
> homes everywhere to Jerusalem with a return flight after services. (What's the Birchas
> HaGomel situation- and travel on Shabbos?)

I heard the following from Rav Binyomin Tabory when he was the 
Mashgiach at Har Etzion:

We all know that Avraham Avinu sent Eliezer to Charan to find a 
wife for Yitzchak because there were no girls available that were 
befitting him in Cna'an. And yet, one deah in the Medrash on 
"vaHashem beirach es Avraham ba'kol" is that Avraham Avinu had 
a daughter whose name was "ba'kol." So why didn't Yitzchak 
marry her? Very simple - Yitzchak wanted to marry a girl and not a 
Medrash :-) 

> But notwithstanding this Midrash, I think CS in his concerns for our Parnoses and
> living conditions has forgotten about another huge source of hundreds of millions
> arrivals - all those who will be zoche to Techiyas Hamesim.

Okay. If all those people are going to get here through Techiyas 
HaMeisim (which they are IY"H BBY"A) anyway, why does the 
Gemara say it's so much better to buried in Eretz Yisrael? Why do 
people spend thousands of dollars (at least in the US) to be buried 
in Eretz Yisrael? After all, they're going to get here anyway. If they 
could have just stayed in Australia had they still been living, what 
do you think they'er going to do after Techiyas HaMeisim? Go 
back?!?

And that's without even considering the mefurash Gemara of "aino 
domeh kolto l'achar misa le'kolto mai'chayim." 

> But really, I would not worry. The same Ribono shel Olom who can
> be Mechaye Hamesim, will also ensure that their
> needs are taken care of - as well as the needs of those who
> will be alive and well  at the time.

Ain hachi nami. But I don't think that means that all the Gemaras 
about the advantage that those who live in Eretz Yisrael have over 
others can be ignored.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

The following letter appeared on tachlis yesterday. I am posting it 
here, because I am interested in hearing people's reactions on how 
to respond. For those who are not familiar with it, tachlis is a list 
which deals with "practical questions and answers about aliya." 
Although the majority of the list is fruhm, it has a range of 
subscribers from Reform and beyond on the left to Charedi on the 
right, and just about every level of observance in between.

I personally decided not to respond to this letter. There is currently 
an argument going on between two people who characterize 
themselves as "Charedi" (having met neither of them in person I 
cannot vouch for either's credentials, but they both seem to live in 
the "right" areas and I have no reason to doubt their claims) as to 
whether the original conversion is "valid" and whether there is any 
point in telling the guy to get this woman an "Orthodox" conversion 
and an "Orthodox" marriage.

There is a woman on tachlis who works for ACRI (Association of 
Civil Rights in Israel) who has said that if the Englishwoman's 
conversion is not valid for any reason (including under the recent 
"quicky conversion" rulings), he cannot bring her to Israel under the 
Law of Return, because he is an Israeli and not an oleh (an oleh 
can bring in a non-Jewish spouse under the Law of Return), and 
therefore she would have to come in under the Citizenship Law and 
wait five years for Israeli citizenship.

Whatever the case may be, it is clear to all concerned that if she 
were to come to Israel now, although she might be admitted under 
the law of return (which is administered by the Interior Ministry), 
she would not be recognized by the Rabbanut, and she and her 
children would be unable to marry here.

My personal view (and I have sent an email to both of the Charedi 
people off the list telling them that this is my view) is that the 
conversion itself is invalid, because there was no kabolas ol 
mitzvos here, and because arguably it has been done for the sake 
of marriage. I would further argue that those of us who are fruhm 
should hold our tongues at the risk of being mesayea someone to 
come into Israel, bring a child who is halachically a goy, and then 
have someone be nichshal R"L in twenty years by marrying that 
child as a Jew.

Lest you all think I am totally "intolerant" about this, five years ago 
someone got onto tachlis and said that he was a Reform convert 
who was 16 years old and wanted to come on aliya. I suggested to 
him that he go study with the nearest Orthodox Rav (some 180 
miles from where he then lived), and get himself a real conversion. 
THAT young man spent Shabbos in my house twice in the last six 
weeks, and will IY"h be starting law school at Bar Ilan in the fall. 

Finally, lest you think these problems are infrequent, two weeks 
ago, an American who was widowed R"L last year (and whose wife 
was in the process of becoming fruhm) announced to the list that 
he was engaged to be married to a Conservative convert, and that 
he was going with her to the States to be married (even though she 
has lived here for many years) because they could not be married 
here. IIRC only one "fruhm" person on the list publicly wished him 
Mazal Tov.

-- Carl

I need some help from you guys.

I am an Israeli living in the UK for the last two years.

In this period I found a lovely girlfriend which was not jewish.
she is now pregnant in her 33 week.

In january 2000 she did a reform conversion in America.

we are thinking to move israel.

I would like to know.

1. Are we going to face problems with the Aliya authorities because it is a 
reformic conversion ?
2. will she be recognize as a jewish ?
3. will the baby be recognize as a jewish ?
4. are we going to have problems because we are not married ?

If you have any information for one of those questions I would appreciate 
it.

You can also send me links or addresses that I can contact to, to get more 
information.

Thank you for your time

[Signature deleted]


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

In a message dated 3/14/00 12:48:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, Yzkd@aol.com 
writes:

<< 
 Shloi Shinu Es Lvushom, (see Michlol for Mokor, but nonetheless it is a 
 Loshon Hamrgual).
 
 Kol Tuv
 
 Yitzchok Zirkind
  >>
We've discussed this one before but you raise an interesting point - when did 
it become a loshon hamrugal?  

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

Does anyone know of sources that deal specifically with the intersection of 
these 2 concepts?

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

Regarding the below post ...

"But it seems to me that the RW is always looking for away to separate
itself from the rest of the Jewish world."

... I haven't noticed that the Redwings have separated from the rest of the
Jewish world. The fact that they are even considered to be PART of the
heimishe velt is preponderous. In fact, most of the goyim (shkotzim) in
hockey are not even aware that jews love to play floor hockey in yeshiva
dorms and dining rooms. And this is not limited to heimeshe (our type) of
jews, Many YU types also play hockey, though they call it Hockey exegesis
(known by the heimeshe as exe-yoshke).

Happy Purim -
Aaron

Carl Scherer wrote:

<<<
See Biur Halacha 219:1 s"v 
Yordei HaYam. Agav, that Biur Halacha IMHO has an answer to 
RDG's taana of bracha l'vtala. 
>>>

I beg to differ.  The Biur Halakha simply says that if one goes on a
transatlantic voyage one is obligated to recite the gomeil blessing
even if the sea was calm and the voyage uneventful.  The inherent
danger of crossing an ocean by boat was such that even if one did not 
perceive any immediate danger, there was an obligation to give 
special thanks to the Almighty.  If you play Russian roulette and 
survive you must bentsch gomeil even if the reason you survived
is that there was no bullet in the chamber when you pulled the
trigger and not just if there was a bullet, but the trigger jammed.

My point is that bi-z'maneinu, flying across the ocean is a routine
activity that is not dangerous in any objective sense.  Millions
and millions of people are flying every year and misfortune befalls
a vanishingly small percentage of them.  In the time of Chazal,
people who crossed the ocean literally did not know where they
were.  The danger to which one is exposed in flying across the
ocean is many, many orders of magnitude less than one who 
crossed an ocean by boat in the time of Chazal.  See the Aruch 
ha-Shulhan on this siman.  It is not so clear to me, based on his 
discussion, that he would support saying the brakha.  On the other 
hand, I wouldn't claim that he is necessarily supporting my position either.

Richard Wolpoe wrote:

<<<
This is how R. Moshe's shito was explaiend to me years ago. 

The issue of dnager is not statistical, rather it is indidcative ot he 
precarious situation we are in.

On water - we are dead - if not fot the ship (see Titanic <smile>)

In the air -we are dead - if not for the airship.

Contrast this with an atuomobile whose collapse poses no mortal danger.

Thus accrording to R. Moshe, R .David Glassner's premise is inaccurate in that 
it is not a matter of safety statistics.

There is no brocho levatol, the chazla set up criteria that are defacto no 
longer dangerous, yet are still applicable.
>>>

Excuse me, but if you're going 60 miles per hour on I-95 and your car 
disappeared, which I take it is the relevant thought experiment, your chances of 
survival would be essentially zero.

Again, R. Moshe says what he says, but, as I pointed out, the olam is
not noheig according to his opinion.  It seems perfectly plausible to 
understand the gemara as listing examples of inherently dangerous 
situations which require a person who survives such a situation to 
recite a blessing.  But if circumstances change so that such 
situations are no longer dangerous, it is not obvious to me that 
the obligation still remains.  Clearly there is nothing inherently
special about the four cases of the gemara, because people
who survive other dangerous situations also are obligated to
recite the blessing.  So what is important is being exposed to a
danger, and that danger can be measured by some sort of
frequency distribution.

At any rate, it seems to me that there is a legitimate safek here,
and safek brakhot l'kula, and shev v'al ta'asseh should be
the controlling principles. 

David Glasner
dglasner@ftc.gov

On Tue, Mar 14, 2000 at 10:29:29AM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
:> Shloi Shinu Es Lvushom, (see Michlol for Mokor, but nonetheless it is a 
:> Loshon Hamrgual).

: Of course their clothing was not original either. That is not how the rishonim
: dressed.

Why go back to the Rishonim? We should take it all the way back to the start
of the galus. Beged Ivri <http://israelvisit.co.il/beged-ivri> (the people
recently mentioned for selling half-shekels) sell clothing that truly
fulfils "shelo shinu".

Probably also fulfils "perishah min hatzibbur" in most of our communities,
but that's a different question.

I'm curious to know how we get away without wearing such things. Particularly
on Shabbos, when there's no "hefsed merubah" argument.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  7-Mar-00: Shelishi, Pekudei
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 5b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

On Tue, Mar 14, 2000 at 11:57:17AM +0200, Carl M. Sherer wrote:
: FWIW my shver's minhag (which I have adopted) is to use the 
: "maror" (consisting of chunks of horseradish) for Korech, and to 
: use ground horseradish (chazeres) for maror.

This, despite the fact that horseradish's connection to marror is questionable,
and is probably based on a mistranslation?

As to the original question, I would guess that it has to do with making one's
seder plate resemble the Eitz Chaim. The two "slots" originally mentioned is
specific to the Ari's ke'arah. Without understanding the Eitz Chaim, I decline
to comment why maror serves these two roles under these two particular names.

The seder is a pretty mimetic time (despite my generation's concerns with
shiurim), so I too use horseradish. But I make a point of having a kezayis
of vadai maror as well -- and not simultaneously, when the horseradish will
overpower the true maror.

Also, I have my mimetic Ari's ke'ara in the middle of the table. However,
it violates ein ma'avirin al hamitzvos. (At least for someone like myself,
who has so little idea of what it's supposed to mean that the layout can't
generate any kavanos.) So, I actually take items off a second plate arranged
according to the Ga'on.

On the one hand, I feel funny dividing these things into "the one I do for
tradition" and "the one I do because it seems more halachically correct".
OTOH, it gives the kids more to ask about.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  7-Mar-00: Shelishi, Pekudei
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 5b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

In a message dated 3/14/00 7:05:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
devaar@earthlink.net writes:

<< 
 ... I haven't noticed that the Redwings have separated from the rest of the
 Jewish world. The fact that they are even considered to be PART of the
 heimishe velt is preponderous. In fact, most of the goyim (shkotzim) in
 hockey are not even aware that jews love to play floor hockey in yeshiva
 dorms and dining rooms. And this is not limited to heimeshe (our type) of
 jews, Many YU types also play hockey, though they call it Hockey exegesis
 (known by the heimeshe as exe-yoshke).
 
 Happy Purim -
 Aaron
  >>
I can't stand this revisionism - before there was floor hockey I was the 
commissioner (in the alter heim) of the YCQ eraser hockey league. Why does 
every generation think they invented or perfected everything??????

Vhashtia kdat, ein ones 
Joel Rich

RSBA wrote: <<If I recall correctly, of all the Maspidim,
Clinton was the only one to say a Dvar Torah on that occasion... >>

I recall that Rav Simcha Kook of Rehovot made the same observation 
and then wryly wondered out loud if one could say kaddish d'rabbanan
after a non-Jew's dvar torah!

Kol tuv,
Shlomo Godick
 

 

Can you elaborate?  Isn't this considered "Tamcha"?

or is the Amcho wrong about Tamcho <smile>?

Richard_wolpoe@ibi.com


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Chazeres vs. Maror 

This, despite the fact that horseradish's connection to marror is questionable, 
and is probably based on a mistranslation?

-mi

On Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 04:49:04PM -0500, Gershon Dubin wrote:
:                                         In a shiur on the topic,  Rabbi
: Y. Reisman cited sources that,  on the contrary,  one does become a
: talmid chochom from being a Zvulun.

>  Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
> Perhaps the reason is purely rationalistic. A Zevulun knows the value of
> talmud Torah. Therefore, the learning he does do is bound to be with
> greater
> hislahavus than someone who is less committed to learning. His success can
> be seguli, not gemuli.
> 
	And how about someone who appreciates the value of learning but is
not financially capable of being a Zevulun? Would you say that his schar is
less than a Zevulun even though they learn with the same hislahavus?

R' Rich Wolpoe <richard_wolpoe@ibi.com>, bidarko hakodesh, commented in
private email on a post of mine in Avodah. This spawned a discussion that
we agreed best belonged back on the list.

The topic was "ayin tachas ayin", whether it's a derashah or if the Rambam
is saying that it's the peshat of the word "tachas". And, if it's a derashah,
was it constructed or from masorah. RRW appears to be leaning more toward
the former, as the famous story of Moshe Rabbeinu in R' Akiva's shiur seems
to indicate -- that there are halachos miSinai that weren't given to Moshe
bifeirush. It also better fits Rashi which seems to say that the din of "Moavi
vilo Moavis" was first invented in the days of Boaz. I thought "discovered" was
a better term, both here and in general. This also means that maskanot could be
known even if the derashos aren't.

Below is my latest email, the content is split pretty close to 50:50 between
us.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  7-Mar-00: Shelishi, Pekudei
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 5b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 11:52:12AM -0500, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:
: Are you saying that moavi v'lo moaivs was not subejct to revision?

Good example, as Rashi on Rus appears to say it was an invention of the
contemporary Sanhedrin.

: Are you saying ALL chazal'sare based upon mesorah?

See the gemara in Cheilek. Someone who doesn't believe in a single gezeirah
shavah being miSinai is a min.

My understanding is that the derashah is discovered, not invented. It is
therefore miSinai, but could be unknown to Moshe Rabbeinu.

: what about the incident of  Moseh Rabbeinu in R. Akivo's class?

See above. Also, see Rashi who concludes that the story happened before Moshe
learned that bit.

: I beleive that the entire issue of halahca kodma lemdersoh or medrash kodmah 
: lehalahca is at work here - no?

Yes. And we need to take this on line.

:                                                         Five indicates it was 
: NOT an ancient medrash, it is too unikely that so manyreasons would have been 
: spawned.

However, there's a second issue. The first is how early was the medrash
discovered. This second one is how early did they know the maskanah. I would
take it as a given that "ayin tachas ayin" was never fulfilled as lex talionis
-- even according to those who consider "tachas" to be a gezeirah shava.

The reason why they needed five was that they, like Tos' after them, needed
to fit halachah as practice to the text.

-mi

*********************


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