Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 432

Monday, March 13 2000

• Re: Machtzis HaShekel
• Re: Yissachor-Zevulun Learning Arrangement
• Wife-Beating - humor alert
• Re: The Holocaust and the Pope (and the RW)
• Re: Avodah V4 #431-Holocaust memorial day
• Re: The Holocaust and the Pope (and the RW)
• [none]
• Whining and Dining?
• Chazeres vs. Marror
• birkhat ha-gomeil
• Aliya and Moshiach
• [Fwd: Clinton's eulogy for YR -humor alert]
• The Holocaust and the Pope (and the RW)
• Toldot Ahron
• Nissan
• Re: Wife-Beating - humor alert
• Nissan
• Nissan
• The Pope
• Re: Avodah V4 #430
• Re: Avodah V4 #430
• Re: birkhat ha-gomeil
• RE: Toldot Ahron
• Re: Nissan

On Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 09:55:29PM -0500, Yzkd@aol.com wrote:
: I want to further ammend my earlier posting that while there is benefit of 
: giving silver coin Zecher to Mikdash, all american 1/2 dollars have siver in 
: them, (OTOH a pure coin is more like the Mikdash hence there may be room to 
: search for them).

But an American 50 cent peice doesn't have 50 cents worth of metal in it.
(As was a half-shekel.) It isn't even backed by 50 cents worth of metal in
Fort Knox. American currency's only value is in consensus and faith in the
gov't that coins it.

It can therefore be argued that a modern US coin isn't a matbei'ah as far
as halachah defines the notion.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  7-Mar-00: Shelishi, Pekudei
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 5b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

On Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 04:49:04PM -0500, Gershon Dubin wrote:
:                                         In a shiur on the topic,  Rabbi
: Y. Reisman cited sources that,  on the contrary,  one does become a
: talmid chochom from being a Zvulun.

Perhaps the reason is purely rationalistic. A Zevulun knows the value of
talmud Torah. Therefore, the learning he does do is bound to be with greater
hislahavus than someone who is less committed to learning. His success can
be seguli, not gemuli.

-mi

another reason for posting limits
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 12:55:14 -0500
> From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
> Subject: 
> > I'm not sure of the problem. Every morning we get and we each try to 
> be first 
> one to the Bathroom...
> 
> Sometimes I beat my wife and sometimes she beats me!
> 
> Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com
> 
> ------------------------------
> 

RR Wolpoe wrote:

>>R. Schwab - and I would guess other "rw'ers" - hold that Tisha B'av is THE day
to commemorate the observence of the holocast.  That the shoah is a direct 
result of the events of that day, the meraglim the churban, etc.>>

Yet throughout history Jews have appointed other days to commemorate tragedies. 
The most prominent in pre-Holocaust history was Tach VeTat but there were many 
others.  I think R. Schwab and R. Hutner made the right call but I don't 
understand their reasoning.

Gil Student
gil.student@citicorp.com

In a message dated 00-03-13 16:37:07 EST, you write:

<< 
 R. Schwab - and I would guess other "rw'ers" - hold that Tisha B'av is THE 
day 
 to commemorate the observence of the holocast.  >>
Rav Soloveitchek zt'l also felt this way, based on a line in kinos, as I 
heard from him one Tisha B'Av in Boston.He said he was asked by Israeli 
officials- I don't know exactly whom, whether it was rabbanim or others- 
whether a separate day should be set aside to mark the Shoah, and he said no. 
Ihard from abbi Shlomo Kahn of Washington Heights that when Menachem Begin 
first visited the U.S. in his capacity as Prime Minister he discussed with 
the Rov whether Yom HaShoah should be changed to Tisha B'Av.and they decided 
it was too entrenched already to change it.During that visit to the U.S., 
incidentally, Begin appeared on Meet the Press on Tisha B'Av,and, before the 
questioning started, he spoke for a few moments about the significance of the 
day for Jewry.

In a message dated 3/13/00 1:47:36 PM US Central Standard Time, 
Gil.Student@citicorp.com writes:

<<  The statistics are scary of the importance the Holocaust plays in Jewish
 identity and frankly, self-pity and victim mentality aside, that is not the 
way 
 to attract or sustain serious avodas Hashem. >>

I agree. While efforts at understanding and memorializing the Holocaust 
should be encouraged and respected, the Holocaust has spawned a sort of 
secular Jewish oeuvre upon which Jewish Federation (or United Jewish 
Communities, or whatever) rely as a mainstay of their fundraising efforts. 
Contributors are encouraged to "feel" and "vindicate" their Jewishness in the 
Name of the Six Million, which by now should carry the letters "TM" after it. 
Money talks; halacha walks.

As a religion of joy, hope, and engagement with HaShem, Judaism can be hurt 
as well as helped by Holocaust remembrance. If we're beyond self-pity and 
victimization, then that's what we really should be celebrating at this point.

David Finch

David Finch writes:
> When Jewish families sit down for a seder, there's also intrigue and 
>double-crossing (and whining and jealously and other forms of
intrafamily 
>unhappiness)

Is that what's known as whining and dining?

Sadya N. Targum
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

And don't forget reclining!

Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: No subject given


Is that what's known as whining and dining?

Sadya N. Targum
________________________________________________________________ 
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit: 
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

Someone asked me wrt to the seder plate, why do we have 2 slots one for chazeres
and 1 for marror?

I naswerd that "afaik we use marror twice, once for marror and once for 
koreich..."

But I still could not come up with a reason as to why one is called chazeres and
one is called marror...after all it could have been called something like marror
rishon and marror sheini...

Any comments or mar'ei mekmomos that would help to clarify this?

Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com

Excuse me, but if you're going 60 miles per hour on I-95 and your car 
disappeared, which I take it is the relevant thought experiment, your chances of
survival would be essentially zero.

David Glasner
dglasner@ftc.gov<<


And how about if an elevator were to collapse in a sky-scraper?   

As far as I can tell the velocity is not the issue; the modality is.

R. Moshe was reflecting or deriving from criteria of the gemoro.

Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com

From Shlomo B Abeles <sba@blaze.net.au>

Danny Schoemann wrote:
Subject: Aliya and Moshiach

>.....once Moshiach comes, you won't be able to
>just get on a plane, arrive in Israel and live happily ever
>after....You will still have to worry about parnoso.... chinuch, housing, transport ...

>...by the time you've thought about it, all the houses on your block are already for sale - how
>will you pay for the trip, the moving, the new business? So,
>do you opt for arriving as a pauper to greet Moshiach...

In response to this and Carl Sherer's recent exhortations
to "beat the rush" and make Aliyah now, thus saving ourselves from all the
hassles, let me quote a well-known Chazal (see Michtav M'Eliyoho V4 130)
- Asido Eretz Yisroel Shtispashet B'chol H'arotzos. which means that even
the US and Australia will be part of  a world-wide Eretz Yisroel.

It seems that this Chazal is based on a (very interesting) Yalkut Shimoni (503?)
which also states that every Shabbos and Rosh Chodesh clouds will bring klall yisroel from their
homes everywhere to Jerusalem with a return flight after services. (What's the Birchas
HaGomel situation- and travel on Shabbos?)

But notwithstanding this Midrash, I think CS in his concerns for our Parnoses and
living conditions has forgotten about another huge source of hundreds of millions
arrivals - all those who will be zoche to Techiyas Hamesim.

But really, I would not worry. The same Ribono shel Olom who can
be Mechaye Hamesim, will also ensure that their
needs are taken care of - as well as the needs of those who
will be alive and well  at the time.

SHLOMO B ABELES

Subject: Clinton's eulogy for YR -humor alert
From: SBA <sba@blaze.net.au>

richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject: Clinton's eulogy for YR -humor alert

>Which prompted several of us to comment at that time  that when Bill Clinton
>leaves office he'd make a great Reform Rabbi <smile>

Which is more than you can say about most of the Israeli Cabinet...<sad>

From Shlomo B Abeles <sba@blaze.net.au>

Carl M. Sherer wrote:
Subject: The Holocaust and the Pope (and the RW)

>IIRC the early State also refused the Rabbanut's urging to make
>the Holocaust Memorial Day on Asara b'Teves, ...They opted for 27 Nisan, because it
>was the day of the fall of the Warsaw Ghetto.

IIRC, the Warsaw ghetto uprising (which they were trying to commemorate originally)
was actually on Erev Pesach. 27 Nissan corresponds with the civil calendar
date of that Erev Pesach - in the year they decided to make it official.
This creates  a problem even for those religious Jews who may wish to participate -
being Chodesh Nissan - when Hesped is forbidden.

In Melbourne, whilst the general (non-Charedi, of course) community has
an annual celebration (incl. 6 women in black - lighting 6 candles, poetry, songs by
school choirs etc) on 27 Nissan, the Bundists still do their thing on the original non-Jewish
date...

M Begin tried to change it to Tisha B'Ov - but he was unsuccessful.

Shlomo B Abeles

<<In Toldot Aharon, for example, on Tisha B'Av after kinot the older members 
(who are almost all survivors of Auschwitz) tell stories of their 
experiences to the younger (teenage) members -- which puts the Holocause in 
it's proper perspective (as one of many tragedies which have befallen the 
Jewish People).>>


My friend, I have no idea where you get this from. Toldot Ahron is the most 
noneuropean of any Chassidut in Israel. They were established before the 
Holocaust/Churban Europe and I doubt whether there are too many Holocaust 
survivors in their ranks.

If the practice which you quote is indeed true, it seems to be a very 
meaningful one and I am happy that they are doing it.

By the way, I believe that there is an extensive discussion of the RW 
position vis a vis Yom Hashoa in the archives. Rather than work it through 
again, I recommend going to the old posts. Besides, MisheNichnas Adar Marbim 
BISIMCHA.

:-)

Moshe
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

>>The secular establishment,  Israeli or American,   has co-opted the
"Holocaust",  from yom hashoah,  on a day that is osur behesped
uvetaanis>>



I've heard this rationalization before. How about the mourning of Sfira? 
Does that not begin in Nissan?
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Alan Davidson wrote:


> 
> another reason for posting limits
> > ------------------------------


It's Adar. Maybe we can lighten up a bit?


---sam

>>The secular establishment,  Israeli or American,   has co-opted the
"Holocaust",  from yom hashoah,  on a day that is osur behesped
uvetaanis,  to Holocaust studies,  to Holocaust museums that in the main do 
not reflect the way of life that was lost,  (because in their minds that was 
a "good" outcome of the H-t.)>>

I've heard this rationalization before. How about the mourning of Sfira? 
Does that not begin in Nissan?

Also, their way of life was not quite lost. You can buy the same garments 
and accessories (pocket watches for example) in Meah Shearim or 
Williamsburg. But I can not figure out what is so heilig (holy) about the 
way people dressed in the 19th century.

Moshe
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

<<It also opens the door to "never again"
ism with its component of prikas ol.>>


Never again was a statement often employed by Rabbi Kahana (although I don't 
know if he coined it). He said explicitely, and wrote on the back cover of 
his book "The Story of the Jewish Defense League" what "never again" means.

He said that it does not mean that the holocaust will never again occur. 
Such a belief is ludicrous, we can never know. What it means, and he had a 
good point (even if those who know little about the Holocaust disagree), is 
that never again will we allow it to happen as passively as we did last 
time. We will be alert and we will fight back physically if the need arises. 
Let's hope it never does.

Moshe
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Regarding the Pope, read today's Jerusalem Post at 
http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2000/03/10/Features/Features.3824.html

Also read "Hassidic Tales of the Holocaust" by Yaffa Eliach about how he had 
a Jewish orphan returned to Jews and the Belzer Rebbe's appreciation of that 
act.

By the way, how do people feel about the possibility of Lustiger being the 
next Pope? I think that he's considered in the top ten but will probably not 
make it so as not to offend Jewish sensibilities. I'm not sure that I would 
be offended. Jews who see the definition of Jewishness as "one who is not a 
Christian" might be offended but I think that it would be interesting for 
the Pope to be , well, a Jew! being as I (we) believe that once a Jew always 
a Jew. Pardon my rambling but how do you feel about Pope Lustiger? (Except 
that it may absolve the Church of "Holocaust guilt")

Moshe
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

In a message dated 3/13/00 11:48:22 AM Central Standard Time, 
owner-avodah@aishdas.org writes:

<< From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
 Subject: Most Pro-Israel President 
 
 I'd vote For Ronald Reagan, and a big part of myt cheshbon was George 
Shultz, 
 who was one of the most level-headed, fair-minded, Secretaries of State wrt 
 Middle East; he both respected Israel and had solidt credentials with the 
Arabs 
 (as in Bechtel) >>

You forget Alexander M. Haig, Jr. Reagan's first Sec. of State, (Schultz' 
mentor) and, Dean Rusk, LBJ's SOC. Incidentally, LBJ ranks in a dead heat 
with Reagan regarding cooperation with Israel, and, the American Jewish 
community. The only reason why he probably isn't remembered in this manner, 
is because he enraged many liberal Jews with his Viet Nam policies   or 
Bombs, Bullets, and, Baloney. Then again, General Dynamics, and, the Crown 
family got along quite well with LBJ, and, Nixon. Hmmmmm, wonder why??
Barry Schwarz

In a message dated 3/13/00 9:52:16 PM US Central Standard Time, 
UncBarryum@aol.com writes:

<< Then again, General Dynamics, and, the Crown 
 family got along quite well with LBJ, and, Nixon. Hmmmmm, wonder why?? >>

Life begins with defense contracts. Every gangbanger in every Black ghetto in 
America owns an Uzi. Maybe that's the source of the proceeds that fund the 
kollelim back in Israel.

David Finch

On 13 Mar 00, at 17:54, David Glasner wrote:

> Carl Scherer wrote:
> 
> <<<
> See Biur Halacha 219:1 s"v 
> Yordei HaYam. Agav, that Biur Halacha IMHO has an answer to 
> RDG's taana of bracha l'vtala. 
> >>>
> 
> I beg to differ.  The Biur Halakha simply says that if one goes on a
> transatlantic voyage one is obligated to recite the gomeil blessing
> even if the sea was calm and the voyage uneventful.  The inherent
> danger of crossing an ocean by boat was such that even if one did not
> perceive any immediate danger, there was an obligation to give special
> thanks to the Almighty.  If you play Russian roulette and survive you
> must bentsch gomeil even if the reason you survived is that there was
> no bullet in the chamber when you pulled the trigger and not just if
> there was a bullet, but the trigger jammed.
> 
> My point is that bi-z'maneinu, flying across the ocean is a routine
> activity that is not dangerous in any objective sense.  

Actually, no. And that's exactly the point. Even if a plane flight 
seems calm and uneventful, you nevertheless have to bentch 
gomel. At least when it crosses the ocean. 

Millions and
> millions of people are flying every year and misfortune befalls a
> vanishingly small percentage of them.  In the time of Chazal, people
> who crossed the ocean literally did not know where they were.  The
> danger to which one is exposed in flying across the ocean is many,
> many orders of magnitude less than one who crossed an ocean by boat in
> the time of Chazal.  See the Aruch ha-Shulhan on this siman.  

Yes, but the Biur Halacha was not written "at the time of Chazal;" 
it was written in the early 20th century, when things were not quite 
the way they were in the Middle Ages, and people did know where 
they were when they crossed the ocean. At least the crews of their 
ships knew. And while the Chafetz Chaim preceded trans-Atlantic 
air travel with the Mishna Brura by about 50 years, I don't think he 
was writing in what you refer to as "the times of Chazal."

As I understand the Aruch HaShulchan, he is not disagreeing. If 
anything, he is requiring a different bracha for things that are nissim 
gluyim, but as I understand him in 219:4-5, he also would require 
bentching gomel for crossing an ocean or a desert, even if that 
seems to be "b'derech hateva." Why do you think he would not 
require a bracha?

It is
> not so clear to me, based on his discussion, that he would support
> saying the brakha.  On the other hand, I wouldn't claim that he is
> necessarily supporting my position either.

See above.

> Richard Wolpoe wrote:
> 
> <<<
> This is how R. Moshe's shito was explaiend to me years ago. 
> 
> The issue of dnager is not statistical, rather it is indidcative ot he
> precarious situation we are in.
> 
> On water - we are dead - if not fot the ship (see Titanic <smile>)
> 
> In the air -we are dead - if not for the airship.
> 
> Contrast this with an atuomobile whose collapse poses no mortal
> danger.
> 
> Thus accrording to R. Moshe, R .David Glassner's premise is inaccurate
> in that it is not a matter of safety statistics.
> 
> There is no brocho levatol, the chazla set up criteria that are
> defacto no longer dangerous, yet are still applicable. >>>
> 
> Excuse me, but if you're going 60 miles per hour on I-95 and your car
> disappeared, which I take it is the relevant thought experiment, your
> chances of survival would be essentially zero.

Your car is not exactly going to vanish into thin air on I-95. And as 
much as they may be rare, your chances of surviving a plane crash 
R"L pale by comparison with your chances of surviving a car crash 
R"L. All the statistics in the world about the relative safety of air 
travel do not change that one.

> Again, R. Moshe says what he says, but, as I pointed out, the olam is
> not noheig according to his opinion.  

That is true. But the olam IS noheig to bentch gomel when they 
cross the ocean. (In fact, there was a day last year when I went to 
shul in New Jersey and there were six people bentching gomel, 
only three of whom were related, and except for those three we all 
arrived on different flights). You would hold that to be a bracha 
le'vatala too if I understand you correctly.

It seems perfectly plausible to
> understand the gemara as listing examples of inherently dangerous
> situations which require a person who survives such a situation to
> recite a blessing.  But if circumstances change so that such
> situations are no longer dangerous, it is not obvious to me that the
> obligation still remains.  

When was the last time someone survived an ocean landing R"L on 
a commercial airliner? On land at least you have a chance for an 
emergency landing. Maybe that's why although the velt does not 
seem to have accepted Rav Moshe's svara with respect to airplane 
travel in general, it continues to bentch gomel to cross the ocean. 
Of course, that leaves b'tzarich iyun RSK's point about the shuttle. 
But maybe we can be mechalek there that although the plane goes 
over the ocean, it never goes more than a few minutes' flight from 
dry land.

Clearly there is nothing inherently special
> about the four cases of the gemara, because people who survive other
> dangerous situations also are obligated to recite the blessing.  So
> what is important is being exposed to a danger, and that danger can be
> measured by some sort of frequency distribution.

Would you then argue that a woman in childbirth should no longer 
bentch gomel since it is rare that R"L a woman dies in childbirth 
today (which was quite common in the time of Chazal). (We 
actually know someone who started hemorraghing and almost died 
in childbirth so it's not unheard of even today, but it is rare). Would 
you go even further and argue that she should no longer have the 
status of cholah she'yesh ba sakana?

> At any rate, it seems to me that there is a legitimate safek here, and
> safek brakhot l'kula, and shev v'al ta'asseh should be the controlling
> principles. 

Are there any mainstream poskim who hold this way?

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

> My friend, I have no idea where you get this from.

7 years of davenning their daily?

> Toldot Ahron is the most
> noneuropean of any Chassidut in Israel. They were established
> before the
> Holocaust/Churban Europe and I doubt whether there are too
> many Holocaust survivors in their ranks.

They were founded *in Hungary* -- when R' Aharon Roth came to Eretz Yisrael
not all of the chevra came with him. Those who stayed in Hungary either
perished in the Shoah or came to E.Y. after the war. Those are the members
I'm talking about (who, by merit of being amongst the first members of the
chevra, are also the oldest members of the chevra today).

Akiva


A reality check a day keeps
the delusions at bay (Gila Atwood)

===========================
Akiva Atwood, POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

>

In a message dated 3/13/00 9:56:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
mosherudner@hotmail.com writes:

> But I can not figure out what is so heilig (holy) about the 
>  way people dressed in the 19th century.
>  
Shloi Shinu Es Lvushom, (see Michlol for Mokor, but nonetheless it is a 
Loshon Hamrgual).

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

*********************


[ Distributed to the Avodah mailing list, digested version.                   ]
[ To post: mail to avodah@aishdas.org                                         ]
[ For back issues: mail "get avodah-digest vXX.nYYY" to majordomo@aishdas.org ]
[ or, the archive can be found at http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/              ]
[ For general requests: mail the word "help" to majordomo@aishdas.org         ]