Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 427

Saturday, March 11 2000

• Re: Dat U'Medina
• Re: Re[2]: Trade Schools and The Malaise of Snobbery
• Re: Avodah V4 #417
• Livin' in the USA
• Gomel
• Trade Schools and The Malaise of Snobbery-humor alert
• Re: Avodah V4 #417
• Re: Re[4]: birkhat ha-gomeil
• Re: Synagogue and State
• hindquarter
• Re: Re[2]: Trade Schools and The Malaise of Snobbery
• Gomel
• Re: Machatzit Hasheqel
• Gomel

Carl Sherer <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il> wrote:
: The last time I learned the first Mishna in Peah it said "Talmud
: Torah k'neged kulam," and not all the others. The others are
: b'geder "ochel peiroseihem ba'olam hazeh v'hakeren kayemes lo
: le'olam haba."

What is the "kulam" -- the other 612 mitzvos, or other mitzvos listed in
the mishnah "sheha'adam ocheil peiroseihem..."?

If the former, then it must be guzma. The same attribute is said of Torah,
Tzitzis and Yishuv Eretz Yisrael. They all can't be literally greater than
each other. Besides, Avos tells me to treat kalos and chamuros equally
because I am unable to do such comparisons.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  7-Mar-00: Shelishi, Pekudei
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 5b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

In a message dated 3/10/00 1:33:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

<< 
 Question: Woud you be AS proud to be the grandfather of a plumber and 
grocery 
 store owner!  That's the real test!
 
 
 Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com
 
 ______________________________ Reply Separator 
_________________________________
  I am proud to be the grandson of a plumber and of a shomer Shabbat grocery 
 store owner who embodied R' Alpert's explanation of the reason why the kolot 
 and brakim of har Sinai are immediately followed by the mundane civil laws  
- 
 
 Kol Tuv,
 Joel Rich
 
 
  >>
With their midot - in a heartbeat

Shabbat Shalom
Joel Rich

--- UncBarryum@aol.com wrote:
> 
> 
> << What DOES America represent? Loose Morals? 
> Perhaps...
>  in some instances. But this is not the essence of
>  America, the Beautiful.
>  
>  There is such a thing as too much freedom,
> regardless of the form of 
> democracy. We refer to this as classic hefkayrus;
> The extreme example of this 
> is called anarchy. There are consequences in
> celebrating too much of a good 
> thing. We acknowledge these accesses in the spirit
> of our Tefillos, the 
> letter of our Torah discourse, and, in the daily,
> mundane manner that we're 
> supposed to operate our businesses, and, conduct our
> lives. Glutonizing on 
> freedom is probably at the root of the unacceptable
> assimilation, and, 
> intermarriage rates in our too free country, and,
> may, chas v'shalom, be a 
> formula for our undoing as a religious community.
> One CAN drink too much 
> water


R. Barry, I can't believe you missed so completely the
essence of my post.  I was trying to defend what I
perceived was a subtle smear on America by describing
what I believe to be her essential goodness.  I
believe that R. Moshe reffers to this country as Eretz
HaChesed (or something like that) in one of his
Teshuvos. We need to have HaKoras HaTov to this great
nation.  I do not believe that those of you who
constantly bash this wonderful country have sufficient
understanding of this.  Nor do I believe you
appreciate what this country has given to you, your
(our) people and all the peoples of the world by being
a shining example of how a representative democracy
works.  The freedom which this nation provides has
given us, all of us, prosperity beyond what has ever
been known in the world here to fore.  Even those
statistically defined as poor, have more than many of
our ancestors would have defined as bare necessities.
(I do not include the homeless as poor for these
purposes because in most cases their situation has to
do with a myriad of issues (mental illness etc.) which
includes poverty but is not exclusively limited to
it.)

Of course freedom has a price.  The Lubavitcher Rebbe
who lived at the time of Napoleon was against this
great liberator and very much pro the  tyrannical,
anti-Semitic, Czarist Russia because he felt that
liberty would lead to assimilation and away from
Torah. He felt That Jews would more likely stay loyal
to Torah if they were under the pogrom filled
atmosphere of the Czar, without the freedom to wander
into the Apikursus an Pritzus filled arena of the
Goyim that Napolean was offering.  Perhaps to a
certain extent he was right.  But I hate to think that
this is the message that we want to send to G-d: If
you want us to be Frum, oppress us.

Freedom in America does cause many Jews to be
attracted away from the Judaism of their fathers and
into areas that are anathema to Torah.  But, as I
pointed out in my original post, freedom also has
given us the freedom to express our Judaism in a most
unprecedented way in history.  It has given us the
wealth to build a multitude of Mosdos.  It has enabled
us to enjoy a multitude of Mechanchim for our children
and to pay them, for the most part, a living wage.  It
has Given us Lakewood, YU, and the vast communities of
Satmar, and Lubavitch.  And I only scratch the
surface.  Almost every Avreich in Lakewood would be
considered below the poverty line. Yet, partly through
the benevolence of the US welfare system, most of them
are well fed, clothed, and sheltered. The numbers of
young people opting for a lifestyle of learning Torah
full time, increases geometrically, year after year. 
And what is the US government response to this?  They
honor it.  Politician after politician say that the
Jewish value of learning as exemplified in Yeshivos
like Lakewood should be an example to all of us. (I
heard this most recently stated by VP Al Gore) There
are countless examples of how easily achievable it is
for Jews to be Jews in this country.

As I pointed out in my original post, anti-Semitism
still exists here.  But it is minuscule in it's
import. Most Goyim could not care less what religion
you practice at home.  Privately, they might laugh at
us. (Blame stereotypical portrayals in the
entertainment industry for this). But this is the
worst of it.  Many in fact admire us for our devotion
to G-d and are even jealous of our family oriented
lifestyle to some degree.  Tolerance and indifference
by Goyim is one of the many  reasons intermarriage is
at such an all time high, and admittedly is one of the
pitfalls of freedom. But the advantages far outweigh
the disadvantages as I have pointed out.  Further,
because of the freedom America's environment, there is
an explosion of Kiruv in America to try and counteract
freedom facilitated straying from the Torah.  

You mention the "Kids at Risk" phenomenon as a result
of having too much freedom.  It is true that freedom
facilitates falling through the cracks but there is a
plethora of factors which contribute to that scenario.
And realize that it is the very freedom provided by
the USA that enables us to deal with the situation in
any manner we choose. And that is precisely what we
are doing, unhampered.  Would you prefer a
Totalitarian society that cracks down hard on it's
citizens who run afoul of it's system?  That would
certainly curb drug use.  But such a system has
already been tried in the USSR and has in the end
failed.  And certainly Judaism could not, and did not
flourish there.  But at least drug consumption was
lower. Is this what you prefer?

As to your comments about the dearth of Jews in upper
echelons of American big business, it doesn't really
matter whether this is true or not. The point is that
we are even if in small number. I'll bet you that
statistically we have more CEO's than our 1 ½ 
percentage of the population.  

Your fear of the Southern Baptist is grossly over
rated. They have  been condemned by virtually every
mainstream Christian Fundamentalist including Pat
Robertson. They have certainly been condemned by the
vast majority of Americans, no matter what their
religious affiliation is.

Your comment about the decadence of Hollywood, et al
is true.  I've stated so many times.  But I was not
reffering to Hollywood as being a positive influence.
They are not.  I was trying to point out that the
Jewish presence in Hollywood will forever fend off any
anti-Semitic influences.  You will never see an anti
Semitic movie.  The best way to get black-balled in
Hollywood is to say something even slightly
anti-Semetic. True there is antipathy in Hollywood
towards Orthodox Jews but this is the subject of
another post.  The point is that Hollywood has made it
unfashionable to harbor even the slightest degree of
anti-Semitism.  And you are plumb wrong about Jews not
being influential in Hollywood today.  Remember Steven
Spielberg?  Have you ever heard of the Weinstien
Brothers? Do you know the most influential producer in
Hollywood today is a Billionaire Israeli?

Also, Your comment about, " Eisenhower, Nixon, Carter,
Bush, and, even "Slick Willy," are ridiculous.  I do
not believe any of those individuals were truly
anti-Semitic.  Just because you don't like their
policies on the State of Israel does not make them
anti Semitic.  Is Shimon Peres an anti-Semite? 
President Clinton, whatever else you might think of
him has been the most pro Jewish president in history,
and has even invited Orthodox Jews to overnight stays
in the Lincoln bedroom which has been, until Clinton,
the preserve of only the elitist of (waspy) Americans.
How many Presidents have given a eulogy to an Israeli
Prime-Minister that compared with the one Clinton gave
for Yitzchak Rabin. His policies regerding Israel,
while you may disagree with them, I believe are
L'Shmah. I cannot see how you classify him as an
anti-Semite. 

Nixon's prejudice was reflected by some of his private
comments and were more of a stereotypical nature than
of meriting any substance. Substantively, he was there
when Israel needed him.  I could go on about the
others but the constraints of time prevent me from
doing so.


John Foster Dulles was Secretary of State, I believe,
during the Eisenhower Administration.  His big crime
against the Jews was that he did not want the US to be
supportive of Israel's 1956 Sinai campaign and
pressured Israel to retreat. Was he an anti-Semite? 
Possibly, but the above policy does not make him so.

And Senator McCarthy...  Do you mean Joseph or Eugene?
I don't know what  Joseph McCarthy's sin against us
was but in any case he has gone down in history
totally discredited. Eugene McCarthy was not an
anti-Semite.  Both were relatively minor figures in
American politics. If they were anti-Semites I would
like to hear the proofs, other than that their
policies may have been critical of the State of
Israel.

About your comments on Dr. Laura Schlessinger.  I
don't know what kind of interview you did with her but
you couldn't have been paying much attention.  Either
that, or she is an inveterate liar. She has stated
countless times on "air" and in writing (in her book
on the Ten Commandments) that she has converted to
Orthodox Judaism.  The Rav involved in that Geirus was
R. Reuven Bulka, an Orthodox Rabbi in Toronto and
Jewish Press columnist. How do you figure she is RW
Conservative? She is close with Chabad, and sends her
son to a Yeshiva high school.  She has already
committed her son to learn in Israel for a year post
high school. She bashes liberal rabbis (Conservative
and Reform) on "air" all the Time.  And on her
program, heard by tens of  millions daily, she always
preaches about the beauty of Torah Judaism whenever
the subject comes up.

Finally there's one more point I would like to make. I
was not trying to say that it is better to live in
America than in Israel. Obviously we all have  an
obligation to live in Eretz Yisroel.  There are
Mitzvos there that we can't fulfil here.  The Ruchnius
there is certainly superior to the Ruchnius here. But
the Tumah there is also, greater than it is here. 
Read R. Aharon Feldman's article on the subject of his
interview with 60 Minutes in the current issue of the
Jewish Observer. The Tumah of  Chiloni Society is
rampant and seems to surpass even the US in some of
it's depravity.

"Livin' in the USA" or Living in Israel  isn't an all
or nothing situation. As R. Shaul Weinreb pointed out
there are many reasons for living in the USA, some of
which he listed.  Al Tadin Chaveircha Ad Sheyagiyo
L'Mkomo. 

To  paraphrase and turn the famous statement Marc
Antony made in William Shakespeare's "Julius Ceaser":
The purpose of my original post was to praise America
not to bury Israel.

HM
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com> wrote in v4n416:
:> "it 
:> could happen here."  Don't fool
:> yourself.

: Anything is possible. But the least likely place for
: it ever to happen is here.

I don't know. It seems you forgot what your own backyard (Chicago, for those
who are new to the list) was like last summer. Or the shooting in LA. Or
Yankel Rosenbaum hy"d and the Crown Heights Riots.



Carl Sherer wrote in v4n421:
:>> ...  and we would have no legitimate claim to the land of Israel in
:>> the eyes of the world.<

:> The first Rashi in the Torah doesn't count?

: To the goyim? Try to get them to accept it. Especially when R"L so 
: many of our own don't believe it.

I tried to force-fit peshat into Rashi that he was saying that when the goyim
come to question our claim to Eretz Yisreal, we should look at this portion
of the Torah to keep firm our own resolve. Otherwise, Carl's objection would
be an obvious one. Who are they to choose the Torah's account?

I thought I really had peshat in Rashi, but Noah Witty (you still lurking out
there, Noah?) showed me it didn't fit.

Perhaps Rashi is implying that HKBH knew that the sacred texts of the powerful
during this era, the Christians of Europe, as well as those of the Moslems
who are trying to get the land, acknowledge the truth that Hashem created the
world and gave us Israel.

Incredibly enough, the Koran actually states that G-d gave us the land of
Israel.

: My point is that if Israel is not a Jewish state, I don't see how we 
: can justify expelling all the Arabs we allegedly expelled, how we 
: can justify coming here as "squatters" (which is what would 
: essentially be left), why the "Jewish state" is here and not in 
: Magadascar or Uganda. If we're not a Jewish state, then we're just 
: k'chol hagoyim...

Going back to Am vs Eidah.... The state could be a Jewish state, the state
of Am Yisrael, without being the religious states -- that of Adas Yisrael.
The Rambam, in Hil Megillah vi'Chanukah (3:1, first halachah on Chanukah),
ends his litany of things for which we are mesamei'ach and mehalel (3:3) with
"and malchus returned to Yisrael for more than 200 years -- until the second
churban". Note that for the majority of those two centuries it was lead by
Hasmoneans who had no right to be king, and many of whom were Tzedukim (not
quite "frum"). Even without the religious element, we aren't "kichol hagoyim".




Shoshana L. Boublil <toramada@zahav.net.il> wrote in v4n423:
:              But many of the Nevu'ot of the Ge'ula are definitely
: coming to life in front of our eyes, we just have to open them and
: see -- as Rav Soloveitchik wrote in his article on Kol Dodi Dofek.

Can you please give a citation. RYBS wrote in numerous places that his
Zionism was NOT based on a notion of atchalta dige'ulasa (reishis tzemichas
ge'ulaseinu). The thesis of KDD, IIRC, was that one is obligated to answer
an opportunity when Hashem brings it around knocking, not that there is
ge'ulah involved.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  7-Mar-00: Shelishi, Pekudei
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 5b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:21:10 -0500
> From: "Sheldon Krause" <sk@ezlaw.com>
> Subject: RE: Gomel
 
<<What about the Staten Island Ferry?>>

	ovrei yamim,  not neharos.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 09:53:09 -0500
> From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
> Subject: Re: Trade Schools and The Malaise of Snobbery 

<<I also se the tragedy of wonderful children - whose parents are
processionals>>

	Some of R' Rich's best firens are processionals.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

In a message dated 3/10/00 1:39:26 AM US Central Standard Time, 
UncBarryum@aol.com writes:

<< << What DOES America represent? Loose Morals?  Perhaps...
  in some instances. But this is not the essence of
  America, the Beautiful.
  
 << There is such a thing as too much freedom, regardless of the form of 
 democracy. We refer to this as classic hefkayrus; The extreme example of 
this 
 is called anarchy. There are consequences in celebrating too much of a good 
 thing. We acknowledge these accesses in the spirit of our Tefillos, the 
 letter of our Torah discourse, and, in the daily, mundane manner that we're 
 supposed to operate our businesses, and, conduct our lives. Glutonizing on 
 freedom is probably at the root of the unacceptable assimilation, and, 
 intermarriage rates in our too free country, and, may, chas v'shalom, be a 
 formula for our undoing as a religious community.>> 

Anarchy is not an extreme version of freedom, at least as "freedom" is 
understood in the context of ordered democratic government. Nor is cultural 
or religious assimilation a concomitant of freedom. In Germany, the Jews 
assimilated in a culture that didn't understand the concept of freedom; in 
America, Orthodox Jews are becoming increasingly insular in a culture that 
revels in it. 

  << For all the money, and,  support that Chaim Solomon gave to the American 
Revolutionary cause, he died  broke. Neither he, nor his descendants ever 
received a penny from the monies he lent the U.S. government. Is that how 
much they love us?>>

Maybe. But lots of non-Jews who lent money, land, provisions, etc., to the 
American Revolutionary cause died broke and forgotten. At least we remember 
Solomon. And at least he didn't die in some muddy ditch outside Trenton, 
where nobody would've known what sacrifice he made for the American cause.
  
 
 << Without his former business partner chepping him constantly, Truman was 
 prepared to stall Israel's statehood. Can anyone spell Eisenhower, Nixon, 
 Dulles, Senator McCarthy, Carter, Bush, and, even "Slick Willy," who wants a 
 Nobel Peace Prize regardless of how it affects Israel? Were these  strong 
 examples of our friends? >>

Truman's friendship with his former haberdashery partner had little if 
anything to do with his stand on Israel. That's a lot of Jewish United Fund 
PR hockum. Truman was most closely influence in this area by Dean Acheson and 
other pro-Zionist Washington insiders who focused on the strategic importance 
of having an ally truly dependent on the U.S. in the Middle East. I think 
Truman liked Jews, but his papers (as dissected by Merle Miller) reveal that 
he, too, could spice his observations with nasty anti-Semitic comments.

As far as the other figures you mention, well, you had me with Dulles and 
McCarthy. But if Clinton is your idea of anti-Israeli, then nothing is going 
to make you happy, not even the Moshiach himself.

 
David Finch

In a message dated 3/10/00 11:56:24 AM US Central Standard Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

<< as I understnad it there still remainss the Talmudic criteria of crossing 
a Yam.
  The Atlantic would qualify, I'm fuzzy about the Great Lakes....
  >>

The issue of the Great Lakes is not as controversial as that of Hot Springs 
in Arkansas. If at Hot Springs you cross a Yam, you're faced with a really 
hot potato.

David Finch

In a message dated 3/10/00 12:03:06 PM US Central Standard Time, 
micha@aishdas.org writes:

<< I'd agree with everything you write here EXCEPT your assumption that 
holiness
 and spiritual purity are synonymous.
 
 See <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol04/v04n277.shtml#17> where I cite
 RYBS arguing against a definition of holiness that involves retreat from the
 world. Not written there, and worth adding, RYBS actually sees holiness in
 the dialectic between knowing when to progress and when to retreat.
  >>

I probably stated my thoughts clumsily. I don't think holiness and spiritual 
purity are synonymous. I think of them as having a yin-yang relationship. 
"Dialectic" is an excellent word.

David Finch

ineteresting articles  today---    JPost on  hareidi girls  secular
education ....   also   also   London Jewish chronicle had recently an
article about the availability of hindquarter meat.   Question----  is it
assur  to to do nikur of the type needed for tbone and sirloin, or just
impractical, or only available in israel and south america?

In a message dated 3/10/00 12:33:22 PM US Central Standard Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

<< Question: Woud you be AS proud to be the grandfather of a plumber and 
grocery 
 store owner!  That's the real test! >>

Yes. And if either of my kids becomes a lawyer, I'll sit shiva.

David Finch

> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:54:15 -0500
> From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
> Subject: Re[4]: birkhat ha-gomeil  
> 
> as I understnad it there still remainss the Talmudic criteria of crossing a Yam.
>  The Atlantic would qualify, I'm fuzzy about the Great Lakes....
> 
> Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com
> 

I was told that it alsomeans a total  crossing of the sea/ocean.  I was 
given a psak  not to bentch gomel travelling between California and 
Hawaii.  I have heard other people being given the opposite psak (from 
other Rabbis)

Since the source for giving machatzit hasheqel is post-Talmudic (the Ramo
cites the Mordechai; the Mechaber doesn't even mention it), how could
there possibly be a brocho? Certainly it is not comparable to the arba
minim on the last six days, which is a takana of Rabbi Yochanan ben
Zakai.

Sadya N. Targum
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
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> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:48:48 EST
> From: Joelirich@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Re[2]: birkhat ha-gomeil 
> 
> In a message dated 3/10/00 11:24:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
> richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:
> 
> << 
>  There is no brocho levatol, the chazla set up criteria that are defacto no 
>  longer dangerous, yet are still applicable.
>  
>  Richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
>   >>
> Isn't the mkor the korban toda? Would we bring a toda for an airplane trip? 
> Why no gomel for short airplane trips?

First of all, in case anyone is looking for the tshuva and hasn't 
found it yet, I had the right tshuva number but the wrong volume. 
Rav Moshe's tshuva is in Igros Moshe OH 2:59. 

RJR is correct that the mkor for bentching gomel is Korban Toda. 
He then asks if we would bring a toda for an airplane trip. The 
possiblity of bringing a Korban Toda has not yet coexisted with 
airplane trips :-) so I suspect we will have to ask Eliyahu haNavi 
this one, but R. Moshe would certainly hold that one should bring a 
Korban Toda at the conclusion of an airplane trip (that could make 
air travel awfully expensive after bias Mashiach :-). 

> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:21:10 -0500
> From: "Sheldon Krause" <sk@ezlaw.com>
> Subject: RE: Gomel
> 
> Most of the shuttle flight out of New York go over the Atlantic.  Does
> anyone bench gomel for these flights?  What about the Staten Island Ferry?

R. Moshe would hold that you should bentch gomel after the 
shuttle for reasons that have nothing to do with its going over the 
ocean. I don't think R. Moshe would hold to bentch gomel after 
going on the Staten Island Ferry. See Biur Halacha 219:1 s"v 
Yordei HaYam. Agav, that Biur Halacha IMHO has an answer to 
RDG's taana of bracha l'vtala. 

> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 13:29:28 -0500
> From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
> Subject: Re[2]: Gomel 
> 
> how about tunnels under the water, bridges above the water?
> 
> I think you need a sea not just water

See the Biur Halacha cited above and Shulchan Aruch OH 219:7.

It seems that Ashkenazim would normally need an ocean while 
Sfardim would not.

Gut vach.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

*********************


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