Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 426

Friday, March 10 2000

• Re: Trade Schools and The Malaise of Snobbery
• Re[2]: Machatzit haSheqel
• Re: bzeias apecha tochal lechem
• Re: Re[2]: Machatzit haSheqel
• Yissachor-Zevulun Learning Arrangement
• birkhat ha-gomeil -humor alert
• Re: Machatzit haSheqel
• Re: Iranian prisoners
• Re[2]: Machatzit haSheqel
• Re[2]: birkhat ha-gomeil
• Re: Re[2]: birkhat ha-gomeil
• Re: Torah u'Melocho
• Re: Yissachor-Zevulun Learning Arrangement
• Re: Mishna Berura reference
• RE: Gomel
• Re: Avodah V4 #416
• Re[3]: Machatzit haSheqel
• Re: kipa
• Re[4]: birkhat ha-gomeil
• Re: Synagogue and State
• Re[2]: Gomel
• Re[2]: Trade Schools and The Malaise of Snobbery

I agree that those who are intellectual potent and capable should pursue broader
wider knowledge.

I also se the tragedy of wonderful children - whose parents are processionals or
intellectuals - being shoehorned as square pegs into round holes

I grew up with the son of a frum doctor. he wanted to open up a business, of fix
cars, but his father as a doctor insisted he  go to college and graduate school 
etc. He was miserable as a student. He had good middos, he like Judaism, but he 
hated being a student of ANYTHING.  he was "un-bookish"

he LOVED 1957 chevy's.

he loved farming, gardening, flower and agriculture

I can go on with other cases.  The point is Somebody KANT <pun> learn 
philosophy, not out of shito but out of personal predisposition.  They should be
included not outcast.  Here is an ehrlicher guy with self-esteem problems 
because he was not studious, yet he was highly industrious and capable. He was 
not lazy. To me omnos is HIS avoda.

Harry,  I object to one-size-fits-all solutions. So did Hirsch as I understand 
it. We need to broaden our peserpectives to build a Torah society.  
Intellecutals are only ONE cheilek of the whole

Richard_wolpoe@ibi.com



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

We have to separate the pursuit of knowledege in an 
attempt to know Truth, the unknowable mind of G-d, or 
at least to know what G-d's will for his people is, 
and the need to learn practical skills so that we can 
operate a succesful Torah nation.  Obviously all the 
skills you, R. Rich, mention and many more, are 
important for for any society to exist and compete in 
the 21st century.  We need Dental Tecnicians.

Knowledge should be studied for it's own sake, whether 
it be Torah or Mada.  This study should be independant 
of whatever career one happens to choose.  When career 
coincides with the pursuit of knowledge, as it does in 
the proffesiional world of the Yeshiva or Academia, 
all the better.  MOst of the time, however, it 
doesn't.

HM
__________________________________________________ 

fwiw the loshon of the KSA indicates it's a minhag and a zeicher to the 
original.  

Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Machatzit haSheqel 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    3/9/2000 3:57 PM


In a message dated 3/9/00 2:26:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, jjbaker@panix.com 
writes:

> Something just occurred to me, as my officemate is collecting machatzit 
>  hasheqel: why don't we say a bracha on it?  It's a clear mitzva in the 
>  Torah, and even if we only give it today as a derabbanan (do we?  I 
>  haven't read that part of the Rambam yet), we make brachot on other 
>  rabbinic echoes of Biblical mitzvot, such as shofar & lulav outside 
>  the Temple.
>  
The Machtzis Hashekel we give only resembles the Mitzvah Min Hatorah in that 
it is a 1/2 of the coin of the cuntry, it is not given towards Korbonos.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

On Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 06:40:09PM -0500, PRaice@aol.com wrote:
: Along the same lines, the word 'yesurim' is derived from 'sur' to turn.  

An interesting thing I picked up from NJ's course for licensing foster
parents (*): The Chinese ideagram for "crisis" is composed of two parts,
the representation of "challenge" and of "opportunity".

Seems to make a similar point. Chochmah bagoyim ta'amin.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  7-Mar-00: Shelishi, Pekudei
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 5b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

In a message dated 3/10/00 9:55:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

> fwiw the loshon of the KSA indicates it's a minhag and a zeicher to the 
>  original.  
>  
Correct! (and See Rambam HIl. Shkolim 1:8), nonetheless taking a Lulav for 7 
days is also a Zecher Lmikdash and we do make a Bracha, as we are doing the 
exact same P'uloh (even though the LIfnei Hashem is not there), however with 
Machtzis Hashekel it is not the same P'ulah as the Mchuvan is the Ikkar. 
Another point by Lulav we find a Bracha hence even when done only Midrabonon 
Zecher Lmikdash we do as in the Mikdash with a Bracha, however WRT Machtzis 
Hashekel, there may not have been a Bracha even BIzman Habayis.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

Re- the commodity aspect of s'char talmud torah-- and the objections
raised by R' Micha Berger

The Tzitz Eliezer (tshuva 15:35- thank you Rav Bechhofer) mentions a
tshuva from the Imrei Bina (no. 13 in the chelek SH'UT at the end of the
first chelek) to resolve an apparent disagreement between the Rema in
Y"D 246:1 (based on Rabbeinu Yerucham) that permits what is commonly
known as a  Yissachor-Zevulun Learning Arrangement-- and the opinion of
Rav Hai Gaon (brought in SH'UT Maharam Alashkar no. 101- reproduced in
whole in SHU"A with R"A Eiger hasholeim) that one cannot give away his
schar for learning Torah and doing mitzvohs.

The Imrei Bina says that are two types of schar mitzvah-- schar
"segulee" which is the spiritual improvement in the person caused by
doing the mitzvah, which is impossible to give away; as opposed to schar
"gemulee" which is Hashem's gift in "payment" for doing the mitzah. 
It's only the latter type of schar in Yissachor's Torah learning that
can be given over to Zevulun.

It's worthwhile to see both the Tzitz Eliezer and the Imrei Bina
inside, for those who are interested in the topic.

(BTW, I'm still looking for a mekor that says clearly that Yissachor
does not lose out--the Rema says "yachalok beschar".)

Good Shabbos 
Avrohom Weidberg

being a 72+ minute  drive fromm New York City during rush hour might not even be
beyond wlaking distance!

Then again, any metro NYC commuter might need to bench gomeil daily anaway!

Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

We (sefaradim) say gomel even for automobile trips, if the trip is long 
enough (more than 72 minutes?). So every time I drive to New York and 
back, I say gomel.

Someone who travels repeatedly in the same week only says it once, on 
Shabbat, even if he's home on Thursday for keriat haTorah.

This is what it says in a number of siddurim. I'll have to look for the 
source when I'm home.


---sam

And fwiw the KSA says nohagin (minhag) and zecher, see 141:5

Richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Machatzit haSheqel 


<<Something just occurred to me, as my officemate is collecting machatzit 
hasheqel: why don't we say a bracha on it?  It's a clear mitzva in  the 
Torah, and even if we only give it today as a derabbanan>>

	I believe the loshon in M"B is that we do it "zecher" to the machtzis 
hashekel.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

I heard thaey are steill under  house arrest, a partial geulah at best

Richard_wolpeo@ibi.com


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Iranian prisoners 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    3/9/2000 5:58 PM


>Three of the detainees have been released!

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but to the best of my knowledge they 
were only released pending their trial. So, for them too, Tfilot are still 
in order.

Moshe
______________________________________________________ 
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

As an aside weren't 5 shekolim coins minted for Pidyon habein?

Richard_wopoe@ibi.com


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

I haven't seen any mention of this on Avodah or elsewhere, but here in 
Israel  a new society for Machatzit Hashekel has been opened.

They have minted a silver coin in the appropriate value and you can 
purchase it for 20 NIS.  They state categorically that this is not 
Hekdesh.

They handed out info-sheets about this on Shabbat Shekalim.  Maybe 
someone has a copy and can supply a phone number and more details for 
those interested.


Shoshana L. Boublil

This is how R. Moshe's shito was explaiend to me years ago. 

The issue of dnager is not statistical, rather it is indidcative ot he 
precarious situation we are in.

On water - we are dead - if not fot the ship (see Titanic <smile>)

In the air -we are dead - if not for the airship.

Contrast this with an atuomobile whose collapse poses no mortal danger.

Thus accrording to R. Moshe, R .David Glassner's premise is inaccurate in that 
it is not a matter of safety statistics.

There is no brocho levatol, the chazla set up criteria that are defacto no 
longer dangerous, yet are still applicable.

Richard_wolpoe@ibi.com

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

The cases mentioned by the gemara all involve danger to the 
individual.  In those days, you were literally risking your life by 
traveling any substantial distance away from dry land.  Longitude 
could not be measured accurately until the 17th century.  The 
stories about ships being lost at sea before longitude could be 
measured are simply hair-raising.  To compare that risk to flying 
on an airplane at the present development of technology is just 
amazing to me.  According to R. Moshe's t'shuva should one 
bench gomeil after going up or down an elevator?  

Again, why should one not be more nizhar about a safek 
brakha l'vatala?

David Glasner
dglasner@ftc.gov

In a message dated 3/10/00 11:24:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

<< 
 There is no brocho levatol, the chazla set up criteria that are defacto no 
 longer dangerous, yet are still applicable.
 
 Richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
  >>
Isn't the mkor the korban toda? Would we bring a toda for an airplane trip? 
Why no gomel for short airplane trips?

Shabbat Shalom,
Joel Rich

v'hagisa bo yomam volaila...

You don';t necessarily have to sit in front of a sefer to "learn torah"

When you look at the proverbial tree, instead of saying ma noeh ilan zeh, you 
might contemplate its halachic implication (e.g. orlah, revo'i) or it's 
machshavah value (ki ha'adam etz hasadeh) or the aggedito, about planting trees 
for others.

If you LIVE torah all day long, Torah study is a byproduct of constant 
reflection of life and reality.

No doubt Torah involves yosheiv ohalim, but it is not restricted to that.  a 
torah-centric person (centrist or not <smile>) has Torah lenses thru which to 
view evertyhing.

This is more-or-less the essence of Hirsch's theses in TIDE, to use Torah lenses
to view the entire world.

In a tanya class, I heard that the alter rebbe could see the kedusha the 
nitzotzes within a table, that what we might simply perceive as solid wood is 
perceived by a Chasid/mekubal as consisted of spirit. There is a level of 
neshamah in all of creation, being able  to perceive that constantly is a form 
of v'hagiso bo too.

The metaphor of haddasim as symbolic of eyes, gives us a clue of how we can view
anything and everything via Torah lenses.

What made Hirsch excited - imho- was the opportunity of a liberated society to 
allow Jews to experience Torah while in the street and it need not be confined 
ONLY to a beis medrash as it was in the Russian pale.

An example for a baal melachah, ataylor has a mitva of no-shatnez to keep him 
occupied WHILE working.


richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

   Some brief comments on this subject:

   Before beginning: I needn't note in this forum that notwithstanding what
is written below, we must never forget or shirk the universal obligation of 
all Jews to study Torah regularly and to make it their major interest in 
life. (as to how to make time for both that is a subject for another time). 

On Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 11:17:28AM -0500, Edward Weidberg wrote:
: The Imrei Bina says that are two types of schar mitzvah-- schar
: "segulee" which is the spiritual improvement in the person caused by
: doing the mitzvah, which is impossible to give away; as opposed to schar
: "gemulee" which is Hashem's gift in "payment" for doing the mitzah. 
: It's only the latter type of schar in Yissachor's Torah learning that
: can be given over to Zevulun.

Now, to define what sechar gemulee is. After all, the possibility of spiritual
improvement is itself a *gemilas* chessed. And how does He just hand out credit
if we are to say that payment is a consequence of spiritual improvement?
The relationship between zechus and sechar cited earlier only works for
sechar segulee.

I thought of a simpler solution, but it requires being an adherent of a
"Torah and ..." philosophy.

Yissachar is obligated in TIDE. He is having Zevulun do the DE (or melachah)
for him. They are fulfilling TIDE together, but only as a unit. Therefore,
each gets his share of that TIDE unit -- even though Zevulun's DE-heavy side
of the total wouldn't seem like it ought to be as zechus-worthy.

IOW, the fact that Zevulun shares in Yissachar's learning seems to argue in
favor of TIDE or Torah uMlachah.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  7-Mar-00: Shelishi, Pekudei
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 5b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

Yehoshua Asher (16 mo) is in the hospital with pneumonia. So I have a huge
backlog of Avodah emails that I wanted to respond to, but haven't had the time
to yet. Here's the first on my queue.

Gil Student <gil.student@citicorp.com> wrote in v4n416:
: He then suggests that the mitzvah is to enjoy what you can and struggles to 
: understand what that means. Kedarko bakodesh, he quotes an obscure rishon who 
: says that the reason is to be marbeh berachos but RYFP rejects that as not 
: making sense (he doesn't mention it but berachos lifneihem are only
: miderabbanan and this mitzvah is mide'oraisa).

One could say something similar to the "obscure rishon", which might have even
been the rishon's intent -- given that it fits the words, which I haven't seen.

The berachah is dirabban, but that doesn't mean the ideas expressed by the
berachah is. Perhaps we can say that the rishon was saying that one should
enjoy what one can from olam hazeh to as to have the opportunity to feel
that connection to the Source that the Nefesh haChaim (ch. 2, thanks RYGB)
finds in the words of the berachah.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  7-Mar-00: Shelishi, Pekudei
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 5b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

Most of the shuttle flight out of New York go over the Atlantic.  Does
anyone bench gomel for these flights?  What about the Staten Island Ferry?

Eric Simon <erics@radix.net> quoted me and asked in v4n416:
: >I vaguely remember a d'var Torah that connects the two layers with the two
: >sets of trop. Ta'am elyon represents the means of punctuating the pesukim
: >to describe 10 prinicipls/categories that include all of halachah. Ta'am
: >tachton breaks the statements down into a list of specific mitzvos.

: Could someone elaborate on the significance of this?  I certainly see the
: value of understanding the psukim both ways (principles vs mitvos), but why
: is one prefered in a public reading, and another prefered otherwise, and
: not vice versa?

I would suggest that the public reading of the Torah was set up to promote
aggadic principles. Private learning must also include halachic ones. The
existance of 10 underlying principles to our duties is an aggadic statement,
the details are more halachic.

In order to support this argument we have to return to another unsupported
opinion of mine: that the wording of the Torah has more to do with the
purpose of the mitzvah than its performance.

Which brings us to David Glasner's <dglasner@ftc.gov> description in v4n423
of the Dor Revi'i's opinion:
: too.  "And I have seen that in the book Hakesav Vehakabbalah, [the author]
: also tries to find a reason why most of the laws of the Torah were transmitted
: orally. Moreover, he is further troubled that many passages in the Torah were
: totally changed by the Oral Law, which removed them from their plain 
: meaning.  [So he asks] why the Torah did not write in clear language to 
: avoid conflicting interpretations? And he writes that in his opinion it was to
: test whether man would accept the true interpretation of Chazal.

I would suggest that the Torah accurately describes, though Hirschian
symbology, the motivation behind the mitzvah, leaving halachah to be a
human process. This doesn't contradict the Dor Revi'i's answer. Once one
explores why halachah isn't what is recorded, the question of "so what
does the text reflect?" remains.

A couple of examples, see Hirsch on "lo sivasheil gedi". Or on para adumah.
(Or pretty much any other pasuk that describes a mitzvah. My assumption appears
to underly his derech.) For that matter, isn't the idea of "ayin tachas ayin"
trhat although one pays money, the indebtedness is deeper than that? (Be it
derashah or pi hashemu'a of which translation "tachas" applies here).

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  7-Mar-00: Shelishi, Pekudei
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 5b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

Subject: Re: Machatzit haSheqel 


In a message dated 3/9/00 2:26:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, jjbaker@panix.com 
writes:

> Something just occurred to me, as my officemate is collecting machatzit 
>  hasheqel: why don't we say a bracha on it?  It's a clear mitzva in the 
>  Torah, and even if we only give it today as a derabbanan (do we?  I 
>  haven't read that part of the Rambam yet), we make brachot on other 
>  rabbinic echoes of Biblical mitzvot, such as shofar & lulav outside 
>  the Temple.
>  
The Machtzis Hashekel we give only resembles the Mitzvah Min Hatorah in that 
it is a 1/2 of the coin of the cuntry, it is not given towards Korbonos.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

I guess we can add Sefiro (accordign to most poskim) to the listt of former 
d'orasios being observed as derrabonos post churban that still are done with a 
brocho as a derabbonon.

Richard_wolpoe@ibi.com

Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il> wrote in v4n420:
: > The majority of violators were thrown in the kippa (with a normal diet).

: Kipa is very limited and not at all comparable to prison. In fact those
: that were sent to kipa died from the diet.

Next time you post a flat-out denial of my understanding, I'd appreciate
sources. It would help me see where I went wrong.

My understanding is that someone who is provably a criminal but for whom the
corporal punishment couldn't be applied would be sent to the kippa and would
live off a healthy diet.

The use of the kippa that you are talking about was, as you write, both
limited and fatal -- but not the more common usage.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  7-Mar-00: Shelishi, Pekudei
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 5b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

as I understnad it there still remainss the Talmudic criteria of crossing a Yam.
 The Atlantic would qualify, I'm fuzzy about the Great Lakes....

Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Re[2]: birkhat ha-gomeil  

<< 
 There is no brocho levatol, the chazla set up criteria that are defacto no 
 longer dangerous, yet are still applicable.

 Richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
  >>
Isn't the mkor the korban toda? Would we bring a toda for an airplane trip? 
Why no gomel for short airplane trips?

Shabbat Shalom,
Joel Rich

David Finch <DFinchPC@aol.com> wrote in v4n417:
: I don't think that the pursuit of holiness -- of spiritual purity -- reflects 
: a non-Jewish view of religion. Nor is such a pursuit inconsistent with living 
: within Derech Eretz in a holy way.

I'd agree with everything you write here EXCEPT your assumption that holiness
and spiritual purity are synonymous.

See <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol04/v04n277.shtml#17> where I cite
RYBS arguing against a definition of holiness that involves retreat from the
world. Not written there, and worth adding, RYBS actually sees holiness in
the dialectic between knowing when to progress and when to retreat.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  7-Mar-00: Shelishi, Pekudei
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 5b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

how about tunnels under the water, bridges above the water?

I think you need a sea not just water

Richard_wolpoe@ibi.com


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: RE: Gomel 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    3/10/2000 12:44 PM


Most of the shuttle flight out of New York go over the Atlantic.  Does 
anyone bench gomel for these flights?  What about the Staten Island Ferry?

Question: Woud you be AS proud to be the grandfather of a plumber and grocery 
store owner!  That's the real test!


Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
 I am proud to be the grandson of a plumber and of a shomer Shabbat grocery 
store owner who embodied R' Alpert's explanation of the reason why the kolot 
and brakim of har Sinai are immediately followed by the mundane civil laws  - 

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

*********************


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