Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 423

Thursday, March 9 2000

• Re: Avodah V4 #415
• Re: Avodah V4 #421
• Re: Re[4]: Livin' in the USA
• rav yoel schwartz shlita
• Subject: Livin' in the USA
• Re: Avodah V4 #422 / Krispy Kreme donuts
• Torah u'Melocho
• Re: Avodah V4 #422
• Re: Avodah V4 #422
• Re: Re[4]: Livin' in the USA
• bzeias apecha tochal lechem
• Re: bzeias apecha tochal lechem
• Re[6]: Livin' in the USA
• Re: Yissachor-Zevulun Learning Arrangement
• Re: Torah u'Melocho

In a message dated 3/6/00 11:50:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
owner-avodah@aishdas.org writes:

<< 
 Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 09:50:57 +0000
 From: sadya n targum <targum1@juno.com>
 Subject: re:secular degrees
 
 Mentioning Rav Gifter's attendance at YU in a discussion of secular
 degrees held by gdolim is a raya listor. He attended for a semester,
 decided there was no value to him in it, and left.
 Sadya N. Targum
 ________________________________________________________________ >>
I think this is a revisionist view that he didn't inhale.

Gil Student wrote:

<<<
>>Now it is true that the Rambam attempts to place ayin tahat ayin in a 
different category of interpretation, which may be called mi-pi ha-Shemuah 
interpretations.  Thus, according to the Rambam, the understanding of ayin tahat
ayin was given at Sinai, so it was not Chazal who established that 
interpretation, but the Almighty.>>

That is to what I was referring.  Chazal tell us (mipi hashemu'ah) what pshat is
and there is no room for argument.
>>>

And the problem with that is that (with very few if any exceptions) there is no 
evidence that would allow us to distinguish between a mi-pi ha-Shemuah
interpretation and a non-mi-pi-ha-Shemuah interpretation.  All the Rambam
can offer is circumstantial evidence, but his evidence has been shown to be
inconclusive or defective by, among others, the sources I listed.  Moreover,
we know that Chazal were willing to defy explicit mi-pi-ha-Shemuah directives
about p'sak halakhah, see B.M. 58-59, based on the principle lo ba-shamayin
hi.  In parashat ki tisa we read the verse that begins va-yihi k'khaloto (I'm
sorry but my memory is blanking out now on how it continues, but I think 
everyone knows which verse I'm referring to.)  The midrash on that verse
reads k'khaloto as k'khalato, which the midrash takes to mean that G d
gave the Torah to Moshe as a present like the present of a bride to her
husband.  (Does anyone else find it interesting that the Midrash was willing 
to compare kudsha brikh hu to the bride and knesset yisrael to the groom?)
So the midrash explains that while Moshe was on Mt. Sinai, G d was 
teaching him all the minutiae of the halakhot, but Moshe could not retain
all that information and kept forgetting it, so that G d had to keep reviewing
the material with Moshe and he kept forgetting it until finally, G d just gave
the Torah to him as a present.  Now the usual interpretation of the Midrash
I think is that G d simply did a core dump into Moshe's brain so that he
absorbed all the halakhot in their details without having to memorize it 
all himself.  But the Dor Revi'i interprets the midrash to mean that G d
gave Moshe the Torah to do with as he pleased and gave Moshe and
those who followed him the right to derive halakhot themselves using
the 13 midot.  The Dor Revi'i uses the same idea to explain another
famous midrash on the verse haShem mi-Sinai ba, v'zarakh mi-Seir lamo,
which, if you stop to think about it, makes no sense at all.  

<<<
>>See Havot Yair, no. 192 (or is it 198?) in which he shows that there were 
indeed Talmudic disputes about interpretations that the Rambam claims were mi-pi
ha-Shemuah or halakhot l'Moshe mi-Sinai (which are not interpretations of the 
text, but additional halakhot not deducible from the text).>>

Thank you.  I'll b"n look it up.  You can also see the introductions to Hakesav 
Vehakabbalah and R. David Tzvi Hoffmann's commentary to Vayikra.
>>>

Funny you should mention Hakesav Vehakabbalah.  The Dor Revi'i does 
too.  "And I have seen that in the book Hakesav Vehakabbalah, [the author]
also tries to find a reason why most of the laws of the Torah were transmitted
orally.  Moreover, he is further troubled that many passages in the Torah were
totally changed by the Oral Law, which removed them from their plain 
meaning.  [So he asks] why the Torah did not write in clear language to 
avoid conflicting interpretations?  And he writes that in his opinion it was to
test whether man would accept the true interpretation of Chazal.  See his 
lengthy discussion there."  At this point, I will simply transliterate since my
translation could not possibly do justice to the original.  "u-b'emet eino
k'dai l'hashiv al d'varim b'teilim ka-eilu v'yapheh hay'ta sh'tikato mi-diburo.
v'khol ha-hithakhmut ba-zeh eino ela l'hosif teima al teima.  Aval ha-emet hu
she-hi hokhma nifla'ah mei-hokhmat ha-torah she-masrah l'hakhmei kol dor
va-dor peirush ha-torah, k'dei she-t'hiyeh ha-torah haya im ha-umah 
u-mitpatahat imah.  v'hi hi nitzhiyutah."

<<<
>>And the Dor Revi'i in his hakdamah to Dor Revi'i points out that even with 
respect to the verse ayin tahat ayin, R. Eliezer actually holds that nefesh 
tahat nefesh is literal and not damages, not to mention the well-known mahloket 
whether a hovel pays the value of his victim's body part or of his own body 
part.>>

With all due respect to the Dor Revi'i, my gemara has amoraim explain that when 
R. Eliezer said "ayin tachas ayin - ayin mamash" he did not mean an actual eye 
for an eye.  Was the Dor Revi'i disagreeing with the amoraim or referring to a 
different text?
>>>

Sorry.  It may come as surprise to some members of the list, but I do not keep a
copy of the Dor Revi'i with me at all times, so quoting from memory, I obviously
slipped.  The drasha nefesh mamash is made in connection with the dispute
whether nitkavein la-harog et zeh v'harag et zeh is hayav or patur between R. 
Shimon and the hakhamim.

<<<
>>So the Dor Revi'i concludes that, notwithstanding the Rambam's claim, not 
supported by any proof text, that no beit din ever interpreted ayin tahat ayin 
literally, we simply don't know whether any beit din ever did or ever didn't.>>

And therefore can assume that one did?  Would that not have been significant 
enough to be mentioned in the Mishnah?  If it did happen and it wasn't included 
in the Mishnah, Tosefta, Mechilta, Sifra, or Sifrei, could it have been excluded
for a reason?
>>>

No one is assuming anything.  But there is no proof for the assertion that no beit 
din ever interpreted ayin tahat ayin literally.  Your assumption is that there was 
an accurate record in the hands of Chazal of the p'sak of every beit din from the 
time of Moshe, and that is why there is no mention in the Talmud or elsewhere of
such an occurence.  But that assumption is clearly contradicted by the many 
instances, which the Dor Revi'i lists in part, in which routine halakhot were 
forgotten.  How, for example, did they forget whether the value of the limb that 
the hovel pays is the value of his limb or the value of his victim's limb?

<<<
>>Now I am sure that that is not what you were taught.  But standing on the 
incredibly broad shoulders of a giant of the Dor Revi'i's magnitude, this puny 
dwarf has no hesitation in maintaining the contrary position.>>

I've seen you quote the Dor Revi'i many times but I've never heard of him.  He 
is your grandfather, correct?
>>>

You should have.  At any rate, he is my great (no pun intended) - grandfather, 
R. Moshe Shmuel Glasner, av beit din d'kehilla kedosha d'Klausenburg.  I 
published an article about him in the Winter 1998 issue of Tradition.  An
abridged translation (by Prof. Y. Elman) of his hakdamah to Dor Revi'i
was published in the spring 1991 issue of Tradition.  Unfortunately, the
book is out of print, and copies are hard to come by.

David Glasner
dglasner@ftc.gov

--- "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il> wrote:
> On 8 Mar 00, at 10:41, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:
> 
>
> I think you missed my original point. My original
> point was not that 
> R"L there is a holocaust coming to America. It was
> that American 
> Jewry is so wrapped up with their lives and wealth
> in the galus that 
> even if Mashiach came tomorrow (Halevay!) American
> Jewry 
> wouldn't be able to make up its collective mind to
> leave.

Aren't you being  just a tad disingenuous?  I think
all of us hope and wish for Moshiach to come Bimherah
Veyomenu. But are YOU more ready than those of us in
Galus? Are you ready to start bringing a Korban Chatas
for every Shiggigas Shabbos?  Are you read for the sea
of blood that will fill up the Beis HaMikdash during
the Shchitas Korban Pesach.  How many Kohanim in
Israel do you think are ready to volunteer to do the
Avodah today?  I think the reality of these events
have been glossed over too easily by those of you who,
in reference to our attachment to America, make
statements like:

 "American Jewry wouldn't be able to make up its
collective mind to leave."

Moshiach isn't just about those of us who are in Galus
making Aliyah.

HM
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

hi my name is kalman zeines and i wanted to post this message
harav yoel schwartz, who was the masgiach ruchani at ITRI in yeryshalayim in 
1969-1971 and is presently the masgiach in D'var Yerushalayim will be comong 
to the USA for the first time b'ezras hashem this Thursday, March 9.He will 
be staying
in flatbush this shabbos and riverdale next shabbos. he'd love to see former 
talmidim
email me kavideo@aol.com  kol tov
kalman

From Shlomo B Abeles <sba@blaze.net.au>

Subject: Re: Re[4]: Livin' in the USA
>- ----- Original Message ---  From richard_wolpoe
> > ...And when I attend the bris tomorrow BEH of my firen's son...

>What is a "firen"?   ---    Yosef Gavriel  Bechhofer<

Quadruplets??  As in "firen", "funven" and "zeksen"??

SBA

With hundreds of Kashrus symbols, it's always better to ask than assume. The 
recommendation or viability of Kashrus certifications is usually determined 
by the Vaad (Orthodox Rabbinical Council) where you live. If you don't have a 
Vaad, ask an Orthodox Rabbi to look into it for you. The Krispy Kreme outlets 
in my area are in the boondocks, and, by the time I get there to investigate 
I won't be hungry for them anymore! Good Luck with your search.

"Yasher koach" to RYGB for raising the issue of requiring work together
with torah study.  He alluded only to the views of the Chasam Sofer with
regard to the need to engage in productive work in Eretz Yisrael as well
as torah study, but he could just as easily have cited mishnayot in
Avot, braitot in Kedushin and Berachot, and the Rambam in perush
hamishnayot l' Avot and in Mishne Torah, hilchot talmud torah 3:10
which, largely, do not make a distinction between Eretz Yisrael and the
Gola.  The view of the Chasam Sofer is either in a teshuva or, as RYGB
suggests, in a commentary to Succah (presumably the mishnah dealing with
a black esrog) - but my knowledge of it comes from its retelling by R'YL
Maimon in "Sarei Hameia".  It is based on T.B. Berachot 35b which cites
the dispute between R' Yishmael and R' Shimon bar Yochai on whether
engaging in necessary agricultural work conflicts with the requirements
of talmud torah.  R' Yishmael argues for doing both, and Abaye and Rava
concur.  The need for work together with torah is also cited in Avot 2:2
in the name of Rabban Gamliel, the son of R' Yehuda Hanasi.  Thus, the
Amoraim seem to differ both with R' Shimon and with R' Nehorai at the
end of  T.B. Kedushin (R. Meir and R. Yehuda also argue with him in the
mishna there).  The Rambam takes a very strong position against using
torah study for material support (see his language in talmud torah
3:10).   Although this position requiring work together with torah study
has been questioned by R' Yosef Karo and other illustrious poskim, the
argument is largely one of exigiency.  It was felt by these poskim that
proper torah study could not be maintained or propagated if there were
not a cadre of torah scholars who devoted themselves entirely to such
study.  That is not the same as maintaining that "torah only" is an
ideal to which everyone should strive, and that the tens of thousands of
men learning indefinitely in kollelim in Israel and the US is something
that is reasonable, desirable, or long sustainable.

Yitzchok Zlochower

>
> Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 18:24:56 +0200
> From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
> Subject: Re: Re[2]: Dat U'Medina
>
> On 8 Mar 00, at 11:00, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:
>
> > w/o debating mitzvas yishuv ho'oretz...
> >
> > The pre-supposition here is that EY w/o a beis hamikdash is
considered
> > non-galus.  This pre-suipposition is debatable.  There is not
doubt in
> > the time of a BhM that EY would not be conidered golus, but until
that
> > time arrives the status is not so clear cut.
>
> Huh? I think we pasken that kdusha shniya kidsha le'shaata
> v'kidsha l'osid lavo. EY without the BhM may not be on the same
> level, but it's still on a level well beyond chutz la'aretz in terms
of
> kdusha.
>
> > Furthermore one might recall that during bayis sheini, most Jews
> > remained in Bavel for at least most of that era; and  I would
venture
> > to say that the USA today is highly parallel to the Bavel of the
Bayis
> > Sheini era. {Even the name Bavel suggests a melting pot of
cultures
> > simliar to the USA.}
>
> I think the parallels go well beyond the name. And Ezra haSofer
> wasn't exactly pleased with the behavior of the Jews who stayed in
> Bavel, was he? See the Gemaras about the Leviyim losing their
> (exclusive - depends on who we pasken like) rights to Maaser
> Rishon.

Another tradition from that time is that b/c they didn't come
en-masse, Bayit Sheni did not have all the miracles of Bayit Rishon.
I recall reading somewhere that if they had all come -- Bayit Sheni
would have lasted forever.

Also, the jews of Jerba (an island off the coast of Morrocco) have a
tradition that b/c the Levi'im refused to return to Israel when Ezra
called them -- they were cursed, and the curse exists to this day.

I wouldn't consider anything done then an appropriate example for
today.  OTOH, much of what I'm hearing here about America and "freedom
of religion" etc. was state by many in Germany pre-WWII.   Not to try
and sound mystical, but there appears to be an historical cycle at
work nowadays.  I would also like to point out that, based on
discussions with Olim from around the world, that we are in the time
of The Return ("VaHavi'otim").  And while many yeminites came Al
Kanfei Nesharim, others seem to be "rolling in caves" as they try to
find hidden roads (from Syria etc.) to come here, once the borders are
closed.

I don't know if anyone has done an analysis, but it looks like there
is a periodicy in the matter -- first, jews can come-but don't.  Then
antisemitism rises, and those who come, loose much of their belongings
prior to coming.  Then the borders are closed, and jews come with the
shirt on their back.  Sometimes the borders open again (Russia) but
the number of jews who lost their lives in the interim is horrendous.
I've heard this about countries in South America, North Africa, Iran,
South Africa and the Soviet block states.  I think it's time we opened
our eyes to this.  I know that many people in South American states
have purchased homes in Israel and send their children for college
here, with the hopes that the children will find a spouse and settle
here.  I have many friends who have done so.  From Americans I still
here a lot of "it's a nice place to visit -- but I want my children
here in the states after a year of yeshiva or college".


Shoshana L. Boublil

> - -- Carl

> Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 12:05:15 -0500
> From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
> Subject: Re[4]: Dat U'Medina
>
> Indeed, Ezra's criteria {icho'ora} was the paultry participatoin in
mikdash
> shieni.  It is debatable whether EY today is non-Galus.  We are not
debating
> kedushah here, we are debating the status of Golah

But first define Golah.  In the Torah it is defined:  In Devarim 28,
54-55 (for example) " VeHefitzcha Hashem Bechol Ha'Amim... UVaGoyim
HaHem Lo Targi'a...."  As EY is the chosen land -- from this aspect it
is definitely not Galut to live here.

> If the BhM is NOT the criterian, then the events of 9 Av 70 CE did
not throw
> Jews into Golus, because they were still living in EY and were
poweful enough to
> mount a partially succesful reovle about 60 years later.  So then 9
Av 70 CE is
> not such a critical date or is it?

Of course it is.  It is a symbol of all the disasters that jews have
suffered since then as the Pasuk in Devarim came to life.  We don't
mark every date of a progrom (though many seem to have occurred on 1
of the 4 Tzomot).

> Certainly legabei YT sheinei EY is qualitatively different than
chutz la'aretz.
> However, absent a BhM it is not so clear that making aliya escapes
Golus in
> toto.

From discussions with various rabbis it appears to be a question of
definition.  We don't have full Ge'ula- we don't have a Torah-keeping
government.  But many of the Nevu'ot of the Ge'ula are definitely
coming to life in front of our eyes, we just have to open them and
see -- as Rav Soloveitchik wrote in his article on Kol Dodi Dofek.
Much of the rest of the problems, are ones that definitely could be
solved if every single jew (and especially the Shomer Mitzvot) jews
came to Israel.  Rav S. mentions discusses this aspect and the blame
of orthodox jewry (at least partial) for the religious situation in
Israel.

> Obvioulsy Carl holds that way, but other might hold differently,
that the medina
> is simply another secular non-Torah government etc.

As long as it is Israel -- it is subject to rules of EY which make it
distinct by definition from any other government in the world.

Now if sufficient religious showed interest, the rabbinate could
(instead of spending time on politics) address the questions that
arise from having a jewish state in our time -- Shmitta, Ribit,
Terumot & Maaserot, criminal law, civil law etc.


[del]
> Richard_wolpoe@ibi.com

Shoshana L. Boublil

On 8 Mar 00, at 15:42, Harry Maryles wrote:

> 
> 
> --- "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il> wrote:
> > On 8 Mar 00, at 10:41, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:
> > 
> >
> > I think you missed my original point. My original
> > point was not that 
> > R"L there is a holocaust coming to America. It was
> > that American 
> > Jewry is so wrapped up with their lives and wealth
> > in the galus that 
> > even if Mashiach came tomorrow (Halevay!) American
> > Jewry 
> > wouldn't be able to make up its collective mind to
> > leave.
> 
> Aren't you being  just a tad disingenuous?  I think
> all of us hope and wish for Moshiach to come Bimherah
> Veyomenu. But are YOU more ready than those of us in
> Galus? 

I don't think it's disingenuous at all. The fact that we're here means 
we are more ready than you. It doesn't necessarily mean you don't 
have the same hopes for Mashiach coming. But if Mashiach shows 
up tomorrow morning, I can walk to the Beis HaMikdash in fifty 
minutes (maybe a little more with all the crowds :-) to watch the 
Korban Tamid while you'll still be looking for plane reservations in a 
best case scenario. The Chafetz Chaim, the Gra and others had a 
bag packed with their papers ready every night in case Mashiach 
came. I seriously doubt anyone in America has that attitude today. 
I don't need to have a bag packed - I live here.

The Gemara says that when tchiyas ha'meisim happens there will 
be gilgul to Eretz Yisrael - which is why many people from chutz 
la'aretz try to be buried here. The Gemara also says "aino domeh 
kolto me'chayim le'kolto l'achar misa." Obviously there is an 
intrinsic merit to living in Eretz Yisrael. IMHO part of that intrinsic 
merit is that making a move to Eretz Yisrael shows a commitment 
to bringing about Mashiach. You're not just coming here because 
"it's a nice place to live." 

Are you ready to start bringing a Korban Chatas
> for every Shiggigas Shabbos?  

IY"H I will learn Hilchos Shabbos well enough by then that I will be 
zocheh not to need a Korban Chatas (or more than one a day 
according to the shita that you should bring one every day just in 
case). Other than being mevaker the animal first, the only 
"preparation" that I know of is having the proper kavanah. What 
other preparation did you have in mind? (Keeping in mind that the 
Beis haMikdash will BE"H come down min haShamayim).

Are you read for the sea
> of blood that will fill up the Beis HaMikdash during
> the Shchitas Korban Pesach.  

Absolutely.

How many Kohanim in
> Israel do you think are ready to volunteer to do the
> Avodah today?  

I would hope that they will beat down the doors to do it. I know all 
the ones who duchened in my minyan this morning would. 

I think the reality of these events
> have been glossed over too easily 

I would suggest that the next time you visit here, take half a day to 
go visit the Machon HaMikdash in the Old City of Yerushalayim. 
Then you will realize that there are people here who really are 
preparing for Mashiach with the hope that BE"H he will come 
tomorrow.

by those of you who,
> in reference to our attachment to America, make
> statements like:
> 
>  "American Jewry wouldn't be able to make up its
> collective mind to leave."

One has nothing to do with the other. And while there may be a 
little tongue in cheek in saying that American Jewry would not be 
able to make up its mind to leave if Mashiach were to come 
tomorrow, it's probably not far off either.

> Moshiach isn't just about those of us who are in Galus
> making Aliyah.

No, it's not. But making aliya is the machshir to everything else 
Mashiach represents.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

I heard a very interesting explanation of bzeias apecha tochal lechem.  It is 
based on the fact that it says that the earth was cursed 'bavurecha'  which 
in most places means for you/ for your benefit.  The 'curse' of having to 
work for food was not a curse at all, but the solution to a problem we had 
caused.  By eating from the Tree of knowledge, Adam brought the yetzer hara 
into a much stronger position than it had been in previously.  To combat the 
tendency to sin which increases when idle, our status in the world was 
changed, and we were given chores to do to keep us busy.  The idea is merely 
to keep us away from sin.  Anything we can do to keep ourselves away from sin 
would consequently be considered an appropriate solution to the problem.

P.  Raice

On 9 Mar 00, at 8:17, PRaice@aol.com wrote:

> I heard a very interesting explanation of bzeias apecha tochal lechem.
>  It is based on the fact that it says that the earth was cursed
> 'bavurecha'  which in most places means for you/ for your benefit. 
> The 'curse' of having to work for food was not a curse at all, but the
> solution to a problem we had caused.  By eating from the Tree of
> knowledge, Adam brought the yetzer hara into a much stronger position
> than it had been in previously.  To combat the tendency to sin which
> increases when idle, our status in the world was changed, and we were
> given chores to do to keep us busy.  The idea is merely to keep us
> away from sin.  Anything we can do to keep ourselves away from sin
> would consequently be considered an appropriate solution to the
> problem.

Ain hachi nami - I have heard the same explanation. But in an ideal 
world, we would have lived in gan eden and not needed to work and 
would not have been bored or idle. In that sense, b'zeas apecha 
tochal lechem is a punishment and is a constant reminder of our 
sins.

-- Carl (looking to retire and sit in Kollel :-) 


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

If Chabad holds it's important to bring about Moshiach, then accordignoto this 
thesis shouldn't they all be amking aliyah?

Richard_wolpoe@ibi.com

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

The Gemara says that when tchiyas ha'meisim happens there will 
be gilgul to Eretz Yisrael - which is why many people from chutz 
la'aretz try to be buried here. The Gemara also says "aino domeh 
kolto me'chayim le'kolto l'achar misa." Obviously there is an 
intrinsic merit to living in Eretz Yisrael. IMHO part of that intrinsic 
merit is that making a move to Eretz Yisrael shows a commitment 
to bringing about Mashiach. You're not just coming here because 
"it's a nice place to live." 



No, it's not. But making aliya is the machshir to everything else 
Mashiach represents.

-- Carl

R' Chaim Volozhiner in the Kesser Rosh (printed in the Gr"o Siddurim and in
the Otzar Ha'Tefillis as well).

There is an extensive teshuva in the Tzitz Eliezer on this all.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Edward Weidberg <eweidberg@tor.stikeman.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2000 9:58 AM
Subject: Yissachor-Zevulun Learning Arrangement


> I heard several years ago from a talmid chochom that Yissochor does not
> lose or give up half of his schar in exchange for Zevulun's financial
> support but rather that they both enter Yissachar's portion of olam
> haboh.  Does anyone know of a mkor for this?  Thanks
>
> Avrohom Weidberg
>

I just wrote Carl off-list about this.

My Mom has long supported the idea nad need for "fruhm" trade schools.  People 
are so suprsircsed toehar that she never pushed me to learn in colelge, that she
has always supported the needs for tehcnicians, electricians, etc.

I am very impressed by R. Posen's trade-school yeshiva or what little I know of 
it.

For most Torah Yiddn, philosophy is not as important as a good skill, a trade an
omnus.  We need mechnaics, and reparimen, and consturction people, and cooks, 
and shochtim, and buthcers, etc.  To build a Torah society, we need more than 
intellecutals, we need real people with hands-on skills - yegia kapech ki 
socheil.

My Dad ran a factory that made jet engine parts as a sub-contractor for Pratt 
and Whitney jet engines.  It did not prevent him from serving as president of 
his shul, etc. evn tho' he never got passed high school.  High precision 
machinists making jet angine parts need to be able co calibrate upon ot 
1/50,000th on an inch!.  This is highly skilled, tehcnial stuff, albiet not 
intellectual.

We have in Teaneck a shomer shabbos garage and repair shop.  atuop mechanics get
good pay and perfrom a real service.

There is a lot of opportunity for a good parnosso in skilled technical fields.  
Isnt it time we had yeshivos that encouraged this life-style?

Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com    
 

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