Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 418

Tuesday, March 7 2000

• Re: TuM and TIDE
• Reb Chaim Volozhiner and T'hillim
• Re: Torah u'Melocho
• Re: Livin' in the USA
• Re: YU Confiscates New York Times
• Re: Dat U'Medina
• Re: TuM and TIDE
• Jews and Gentiles
• Proof to anti-English view?
• Livin' in the USA
• [name omitted]
• Re: Torah u'Melocho
• MiSheberach for Cholim
• YU confiscates New York Times
• Livin' in the USA
• Re: Avodah V4 #417
• RE: Livin' in the USA
• medinah and halachah

--- Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
> In v4n406, R' Harry Maryles defines TIDE and writes
> that from its perspective:
> : a) you need [secular studies] for parnasah and
> that
> : b)it helps one to live in and understand one's
> environment ...
> 
> : I believe that TIDE also grants intrinsic value to
> secular studies but only
> : in an instrumentalist way.
> 
> I think this line contradicts A&B, but better
> captures what TIDE is than they
> do. I don't know of any hashkafah that assurs the
> minimum secular knowledge
> necessary to cope with the world and put food on the
> table. A&B are true
> of far more than TIDE (or TuM).

The fact that TIDE has intrinsic instrumentlist value
is really a synthesis of A and B, isn't it?  

Also, it differs from the Torah Only approach in that
eventhough Torah Only  requires a minimum degree of
knowledge in order to funcyion in the world, it does
not require and perhaps discourages (as Bittul Torah)
any knowledge beyond the minimum.  TIDE would
encourage MORE than a minimun but only for
instrumentelist purposes.  A higher standard of living
which can be aquired through such knowledge is
perfectly legitimate with TIDE but may not be with the
Torah Only approach.

HM


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

The story of Reb Chaim Volozhiner is cited (I believe in Maimon's Sarei
Hameah) in expanded form, and with a twist at the end: Reb Chaim indeed
questioned whether Dovid Hamelech's request was granted for
T'hillim-sayers to get schar equivalent to learning. After all, he
pointed out, we find that a request of his was not granted. In Bava Basra
17a, the g'mara lists seven in whose bodies "lo shalta rima v'toleah,"
Dovid Hamelech not included.  The g'mara continues:"v'yesh omrim af
Dovid, dichsiv 'Af b'sori yishkon lavetach;' v'idach rachamay hu
d'kaba'i."Thus, according to the tana kama, his request was not granted.

To this, one of the g'dolei hachasidus (I believe it was said in the name
of the Sanzer, but I'm not sure -- I don't even know if it's historically
possible) responded that certainly Dovid Hamelech's tfilah would be
accepted, and the p'shat in the g'mara is that Dovid is not listed
because unlike the others, who merited it bizchus, "Dovid rachamay hu
d'kaba'i": he had to ask for it.  The story concludes that when the
p'shat  was repeated to Reb Chaim, his response was that it could be.
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

--- "Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
> A "philosophy" that we endlessly self-defining and
> hair-splitting Chaverim
> la'Avodah have yet to explore is that of Torah
> u'Melocho - Torah and Labor
> or Work. The famous Chasam Sofer in Sukkah on Yishuv
> EY is a strong
> proponent of this philosophy for those living in EY
> (but not Chu"L!). I
> believe the CI was generally for this philosophy for
> all except a small
> elite (it is important to remember that the spllit
> with PAI, I believe,
> was after the CI's petira). Even the Nefesh Ha'Chaim
> migt be coaxed to
> agree with it, although probably not. Often confused
> with TIDE, it is not
> in fact the same thing. It requires no advanced
> secular training, and was,
> and in Chu"l still is, the predominant philosophy
> among Chassdim (as
> evinced by their heavy presence, on the American
> scene, in the
> contemporary parallels to agriculture and artisanry,
> jewelry and
> electronics). 

I don't think you can equate the heavy presence of
Chasidim in the work world to  Torah u'Melocho - Torah
and Labor.  I think Chasidism has it's own philosophy
of Chasidus and Avodas HaShem through it's wemphasis
on Dveikus through one's mundane actions throughout
life. If I am not mistaken, Chasidism in general
belives that the all important goal is Dveikus in the
Ribono shel Olam.  How you achieve that is not as
important as achievuing it and to that end mitzvah
observance is perhaps the chief but not the only way
that one reaches Dveikus. Bearing that in mind,
working L'Shem Shomyim, in an ehrlich way etc. is just
another way one can achieve Dveikus.

HM
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

In a message dated 3/6/00 7:05:38 PM US Central Standard Time, 
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:

<< So, in conclusion, I do not think you can compare the
 USA with any other country of today or yesteryear.
 There is not nor has there ever been another country
 like it.
  >>

Hear, hear! Yea! You tell 'em, Harry!

David Finch

From Shlomo B Abeles <sba@blaze.net.au>
Subject: YU Confiscates New York Times

Pardon my ignorance, but could someone please enlighten me
what problem does the YU  have with the NYT?
I have looked up the original source at
http://www.yucommentator.com/v64i7/news/nytconfiscation.shtml
and it doesn't seem to give any details.

SBA

       >From Shlomo B Abeles <sba@blaze.net.au>

       Carl M. Sherer wrote:
       Subject: Re: Dat U'Medina

       >Could you please explain to me how someone with an Australian address
       >suddenly becomes an expert on what American religious Jews do or do not need?

       Far from me to claim to be an expert. But after having spent 4 consecutive years
       in the US (during my yeshiva days) and having visited dozens of times since,
       having kept contact through many newspapers and journals, and through
       the phone (u should see the bills!) with friends and family (often daily),
       "red ich mich ein" - that I know something about Jewish life in the USA
       - especially amongst the heimishe tzibbur.

       I do not criticize the Maalos of Israel - aderaba - I am quite jealous that you have
       such a large choice and variety of educational institutions a such affordable rates.
       OTOH it does, however, seem  that almost every major Mokom Torah in Israel
       resorts to fundraisng in the Golah (yes, even in Australia). How   many of
        their buildings  display plaques commemoratuing the generosity of some "rich American"?

       And BTW maybe if the millions that American Jews donate to Israeli
       Mosdos stayed in America, the high tuition fees
        (which you so correctly identify as a major problem in
       the US)  could be substantially reduced...?
        (What it would do to Israeli tuition fees - is another question.)

       > I was speaking in terms of metzius And the metzius is... that it is much
       >easier to be a fruhmmer yid in Israel than it is in the United States

        Israel is good not only  for frummer yidden...half a million Russian Goyim can't be wrong...

       But seriously, every time I hear of the Rishus of those in authority
       in your country towards their religious brethren - I feel sick.
       American (or Australian) religious Jews do not have to put up with Sonei Hadas
        of the calibre of Chief Justice Barak or Education Minister Yossi Sarid - just to name a
        few.    Do American religious Jews suffer the kind of harassment, the Israeli High
       court dishes out to them every  Montig and Donnershtig?

       >If you think I'm wrong, ask Yonasson Rosenblum.

       Indeed, I would love to hear his opinion about this.
       I wonder if he reads Avodah?

       >It is no secret that the Supreme Court here is anti-religious. All of you
       >heard of the demonstration that took place here last year, which I proudly attended.

       Exactly. Have you heard of American (or Australian) Jews
       needing to organize mass demonstrations to express their
       frustration against a bigoted and prejudiced system?.

       Do we have to fight wars to ensure that post-mortems are not performed
       against families wishes?

       Do Australian or American governments
       treat the remains of our ancestors in such a disgraceful manner
       as Israel allows? In fact, it is the goyishe Americans who
       are in the forefront of defending historic Jewish cemeteries
       in Eastern Europe. (I have just been informed by an askan from
        Asra Kadisha, that Madeline Allbright will be taking up the problems
        of the attempted desecration of the ancient Jewish
        cemetery in Prag - when she visits the Czech   republic shortly.)

       And do you honestly think that the army problem is such a simple matter?
       In America, frum young men who wish to work, have the choice to do so.
       Not so in Israel, where they must first do time in the army.
       And then some time - 3 years plus 4-5 weeks every year for decades
       - and that's when there is no war...

       And let's be honest, the main reason frum parents don't want their sons
       in the army - is the danger of them going right off Yiddishkeit. And
       who can blame them, as the gemoro says - Ein Apitropus L'Aroyos,
       Uma Yaseh haben shelo yechtoh. But even if the ("cowardly") reason is,
       that they don't want to risk their son's life or limb, isn't that a valid and
       reasonable consideration for every resposible parent? Shouldn't every
       American family thinking of making Aliya, seriously consider the
       fact that if they plan to comply with the army thing - 100% correctly - they and/or their
       sons may have to make the ultimate sacrifice? Isn't the Sakono Gashmi
       veRuchni something to be very carefully  weighed?

       >And if there is no need for such organizations in the
       >United States, why does the Aguda maintain a
       >legal department, what is COLPA

       Is COLPA still around? I haven't heard a lot about them in recent
       years - but I didn't think that their aim was to defend religious Jews
       from defamation, muckraking and libel - which I understand is the the role of AE.

       >...and why do organizations like the American Jewish Congress...

       What I know of the AJC - if they had the possibility, they would
       do with  religious Jews exactly
       what the above mentioned Israeli authorities do.
       BH the US is a Malchus shel Chesed and the AJC have no power of us.
        (And zeit mochel, but comparing Am Echad to the AJC is like comparing  chulent to pork.

       >...(who, say what you will about them, have a fruhm
       >general counsel who knows how to learn quite well)...

       Are you saying this to prove how hard it is for a religious lawyer in
       America to find a job? - a choice between anti-Semites and the AJC...

       >I lived in America for 34 years.....so I think I have some idea
       >of what goes on in America. On what basis do you consider yourself an expert?

       I don't - see above

       >... Carl Sherer is a big fan of Yonasson Rosenblum.

       And let me end by saying - that (whilst I may sometimes disagree with you)
       SBA is a big fan of Carl Sherer's posts.

       Shlomo B Abeles

On Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 05:17:00PM -0800, Harry Maryles wrote:
In v4n406, R' Harry Maryles defines TIDE and writes that from its perspective:
:>: a) you need [secular studies] for parnasah and that
:>: b)it helps one to live in and understand one's environment ...

:>: I believe that TIDE also grants intrinsic value to secular studies but only
:>: in an instrumentalist way.

I said that the latter contradicts A&B, but I felt it was more accurate.

Harry replied:
: The fact that TIDE has intrinsic instrumentlist value
: is really a synthesis of A and B, isn't it?  

Your A&B make DE out to be a necessary evil of living in Olam haZeh, the
only "value" being in its meeting that necessity.

TIDE, AIUI, meens that using DE in avodas Hashem is the tachlis ha'adam --
not an evil, necessary or otherwise.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  4-Mar-00: Shevi'i, Vayakhel
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 4a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

R' Yitzchok Zirkind cited, ostensibly, a talmudic source to suggest that
Jew-hatred is endemic among Gentiles.  I am not familiar with his
particular nusach, however the analogous well-known aphorism of R'
Shimon bar Yochai reads, "It is a well-known rule that Eisav hates
Ya'akov".  This is taken by some to mean that it is some kind of
principle that Romans and all Westerners or all Gentiles hate the Jews.
So Esav here is generalized to Romans and the Gentiles, and Ya'akov is
taken to mean all Jews.  No evidence is advanced to justify this great
generalization.  Moreover, the statement of R' Shimon continues, "but
here his compassion overwhelmed him and he kissed him whole-heartedly".
This part of the statement is usually ignored since it contradicts "the
world hates us" thesis.  The statement, taken as a whole, clearly refers
to the relationship between two actual people - not prototypes, and
shows that this relationship involved affection and brotherliness as
well as jealousy and hatred.

The second citation is taken from Bilaam's forced blessings and does
carry multiple meanings.  As a nation, Israel is certainly treated
differently than other nations, both for good and bad.  Nor can we
pretend in this country that we live apart.  If we consciously adopt a
negative attitude towards others, then their natural reaction will seem
like a self-fulfilling prophesy.  If we, conversely, are prepared to
treat others as real people, then we should expect to find very little
animosity.  Moreover, we  are commanded to sanctify G-D's name and
certainly not desecrate it.  Therefore our words and actions must be
such that the peoples around us will think them praiseworthy rather than
conforming to some stereotypical image of Jews. These sentiments should
be particularly true in the US with its multi-ethnic and multi-racial
immigrant composition, and its long history of constitutional rule and
tolerance of minorities.

Yitzchok Zlochower

> Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 12:55:50 -0500 (EST)
> From: Edward Weiss <esweiss@ymail.yu.edu>
> Subject: Proof to anti-English view?

<<and I wonder what kind of response should me made toward this kind of
thing. It seems to corroborate the anti-Artscroll, anti-anything view of
translating Sifrei Kodesh into other languages  Perhaps R' Menashe Klein
had a good point after all. :)>>

	I don't understand the reference to R'Menashe Klein.  However,  the
sewage on this website is hundreds and hundreds of years old.  I don't
see any need to react to it in any way and thereby dignify it.  As to
Artscroll and translation,  it wasn't they who said that when the Torah
was translated the world was dark for three days.  So for this shoteh
Artscroll should close down?

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

> Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 17:13:21 -0800 (PST)
> From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Livin' in the USA

<<I could go on there is so much more to say, but I'm tired and (for
those of you who bothered to read this tirade) you're all probably tired
of me as well.>>

	I actually read it all the way through and enjoyed it.  I agree with
everything you say.  There really is not and has never been as great a
haven for Jews,  Orthodox or not,  as America.

	BUT,  it must always be in the back (or not so far back) of the mind of
every Jew that as good a place as this is,  it isn't home.  I won't get
involved in the aliya debate, but even if you choose for whatever your
reasons not to make aliya now,  or in the near or distant future, 
America is still not home.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

> Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 08:44:07 -0600
> From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
> Subject: Re: [name omitted]

<<I'll go one step further -- I am not sure too many people want Avodah
cluttered up with articles. I also wonder about copyright laws.
 
How about a summary and a URL, with an offer to email copies to people
who don't have web access?>>

	I'll take it one step further yet:  some people post a "URL" (mar'eh
makom) for a sefer which some of us may or may not have,  or may be too
busy or lazy to look up.  We wind up with "look at such and such sefer
page 322" and,  speaking for myself,  a feeling of frustration.

	So,  to expand Micha's suggestion:

	For articles,  summary and URL and offer to email
	For divrei Torah, etc.,  summary,  "URL" and offer to
email/fax/snailmail.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2000 7:35 PM
Subject: Re: Torah u'Melocho


> I don't think you can equate the heavy presence of
> Chasidim in the work world to  Torah u'Melocho - Torah
> and Labor.  I think Chasidism has it's own philosophy
> of Chasidus and Avodas HaShem through it's wemphasis
> on Dveikus through one's mundane actions throughout
> life. If I am not mistaken, Chasidism in general
> belives that the all important goal is Dveikus in the
> Ribono shel Olam.  How you achieve that is not as
> important as achievuing it and to that end mitzvah
> observance is perhaps the chief but not the only way
> that one reaches Dveikus. Bearing that in mind,
> working L'Shem Shomyim, in an ehrlich way etc. is just
> another way one can achieve Dveikus.
>

Unlikely. I think you picked that up from R' Lamm. It is not borne out in
Chassidus itself.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

> Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 13:09:41 -0500
> From: saul guberman <saulguberman@juno.com>
> Subject: Re: MiSheberach for Cholim

<<Our Minyan changed the way the MiSheberach is said; specifically
because of your point.  The gabbai announces that the MiSheberach will be

said and everyone is to say it along with him and insert their own list
of names at the appropriate time.>>

	I have heard of this solution,  and wonder whether it doesn't somehow
detract from the tefilas hatzibur on behalf of the cholim.  I grant you
that shmoozing during the misheberach does not constitute tefila for the
cholim,   and that there is a problem which needs to be addressed.  This
solution,  however,  just doesn't sit right with me.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

> Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 11:51:29 EST
> From: Joelirich@aol.com
> Subject: Re: YU Confiscates New York Times

<<I hope that these questions will be answered before the authorized
Artscroll biography comes out :-)>>

	If you're holding your breath waiting for the Artscroll biography of Dr.
Revel,  I suggest you exhale.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

> Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 17:13:21 -0800 (PST)
> From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Livin' in the USA

I was actually going to let this ride until I saw this:

Sure there
> was some of that Good Ole Boy Anti-Semitism mentality
> in the State Department during the Holocaust But I
> think that it has been overblown  in recent years, and
> there were plenty of Jews guilty of indifference
> during the war as well. 

I would suggest you read Arthur Morse's "While Six Million Died" 
and then think about whether you really want to make that 
statement. The State Department knew what was going on in the 
camps very early in the war - certainly by 1942. Even AFTER they 
knew, they refused to so much as bomb the railroad tracks leading 
to the camps. If the Nazi's YM"SH could not have moved the 
people to Auschwitz, their killing machine would not have been 
anywhere near as "efficient." 

> I believe what has been attributed as indifference (by
> Jew and Non-Jew alike) during the Holocaust by
> Americans was really just  incredulity on the part of
> those who heard of Holocaust atrocities. Nobody could
> believe the Horror stories...  Too unbelievable to be
> true. 

The State Department KNEW they were true. Read the book. 
Franklin Roosevelt, who is venerated today largely because of his 
wife, was a lush, a womanizer, and one of the biggest anti-Semites 
ever to occupy the White House (the only recent President I can 
think of who might come close is the Peanut Farmer from Georgia). 

(My mother in Law who is an Auschwitz survivor
> told me that before she was caught and sent to
> Auschwitz even she didn't believe what she had heard
> about the camps.) 

SHE didn't have the evidence that the State Department had. Read 
the book.

> And which country is the biggest supporter of Israel
> today?  I'll give you three guesses and the first two
> don't even count. The USA supports Israel with all
> that it has, maorally and financially as well as
> militarily.  Every President and Congress almost
> without exception since Harry S. Truman has been
> pro-Israel some more some less but always pro.

Carter? Bush?

I didn't bother to respond to the rest of this. I agree that America is 
unique in its treatment of Jews. I don't believe (as I think I have 
stated many times) in pushing people to come on aliya because "it 
could happen here." But "IT" could. Don't fool yourself.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

----- Original Message -----
From: Avodah <owner-avodah@aishdas.org>
To: <avodah-digest@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2000 3:04 AM
Subject: Avodah V4 #417
> Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 16:08:17 EST
> From: DFinchPC@aol.com
> Subject: Avodah V4 #409
> No, my comments about the need to emphasize the joy of Judaism, the
> egalitarian psychodynamics of treating Sammy Sosa (instead of, say,
Kaiser
> Wilhelm) as a folk hero, and the wonder and uniqueness of American
freedom,
> were said neither sarcastically nor as an attempt to mimic the 19th
century
> German Reform attitude. In fact, I was trying to point out how the
vast
> differences between America and pre-war Germany make this country an
almost
> ideal place to observe Judaism, including observant Judaism.
Especially
> observant Judaism, even the RW variety.
>
> Why is it that almost every time someone on the Avodah line says
something
> nice about America, someone else points to pre-war Germany, or to
the sad
> delusions of the German reform movement, or something like that?

For a very simple reason, and it's conclusion.  We are promised that
Israel (jews) will not find rest among the Goyim where they are exiled
to.  The conclusion is obvious.
As for facts, the first case that came to court in America, with the
intent of forbidding Brit Milla was 16 years ago.  From what I've
heard, things have just gone downhill from there.

Shoshana L. Boublil

>
> 	I actually read it all the way through and enjoyed it.
> I agree with
> everything you say.  There really is not and has never been as great a
> haven for Jews,  Orthodox or not,  as America.

Including Eretz Yisrael during the Shoftim/bayis Rishon? (There have been
several posts now claiming that there has *never* been as good a place for
the Jews as America.)

>
> 	BUT,  it must always be in the back (or not so far
> back) of the mind of
> every Jew that as good a place as this is,  it isn't home.

This is the real problem. When someone posts a message that implies that
they are an American Jew, with "American" taking priority over "Jew" in
their self-identity, then you are going to get into this argument.

Akiva

> 
> In a discussion on the subject of local civil courts, Chief Rabbi Rav
> Bakshi Doron noted that another topic that could be ruled by
> Knesset/judged by civil courts is the topic of  insurance law with
> regard to accidents and related issues.  So there would be additional
> topics that could be decided by the Knesset besides taxation.
> 

One topic that has always bothered is the possibility of governing a modern 
state according to halachah. In my humble opinion this would be extremely
difficult (without the introduction a Sanhedrin).

Several problems:
1. Criminal law - without semichah this basically does not exist.
   There is no jail system in halachah and without semichah no bodily
   punishment.

   To give an example currently in the Israeli news - rape and
   sexual harrasment.
   To the best of my knowledgement there is no serious punishment in
   halachah for a rapist of a single woman above the age of 12 1/2
   (bogeret) and certainly not for sexual harrasment.

In general the chances of getting two witnesses for any crime is negligible
(not to speak of a warning)
To stress old remedies like cherem are unworkable in a large (nonreligious)
society. We all already know that problems of men who refuse to give a get
are unsolvable with the remedies currently available to a bet din.

Some people have suggested ways out based on the derashot haRan who
gives power to the king for many criminal procedures.
I have a major problem with this. This is used as an answer to theoretical
questions. However, whenever it really applies everyone immediately states
that one cannot rely on this and go to secular courts instead of a bet din.

2. civil law

Here the situation is even worse. Halachah is a system based on the
monetary situation 2 thousand years ago. Without a sanhedrin there is
no way to adjust it for modern technology.

Some can be included within dina demalcuhcta dina.
First, this is a copout - as it gives someone else the authority.
Second according to many authorities it is very limited.

Similar, the powers of a kehiila to pass new monetary legislation against
the wishes of the parties involved is very limited.

Some simple examples:

kinyan - one cannot effect any sale or transfer without a kinyan that among
other things requires "daat makneh". Today millions of dollars are
transfered automatically by computers without any human intervention.
All ecommerce would be problematical.

davar shelo ba leolam - all futures markets are invalid. I suspect many
insurance contracts and other compicated business dealings.

patents - there is no clear halachah concerning patents and copyrights.
In the old days this was accomplished by a cherem of the bet din.
There are some teshuvot about copying tapes with divrei Torah.
However, modern law is very complicated with many details. How one could
decide these issues based on Halachah is doubtful.
Just consider recent court cases involving high technology like the
Microsoft case.
Is copying software against halachah?
What about the design of MS windows (or Mac)?
Modern law also has time limits to prevent stifling of competition.
Can this be included?

kim li - To my mind the worst case is that according to halachah a (monetary)
defendant has the right to say he holds like a (or posisbly 2) authorities
and then no court has the right to seize money. Thus, this severely
restricts the possibility of future batei din to reinterpret old halachot
to adjudicate monetary cases.

For the sake of brevity (?) I will stop with these few examples.

kol tuv,
Eli Turkel

*********************


[ Distributed to the Avodah mailing list, digested version.                   ]
[ To post: mail to avodah@aishdas.org                                         ]
[ For back issues: mail "get avodah-digest vXX.nYYY" to majordomo@aishdas.org ]
[ or, the archive can be found at http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/              ]
[ For general requests: mail the word "help" to majordomo@aishdas.org         ]