Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 417

Monday, March 6 2000

• Re: Proof to anti-English view?
• Re: Avodah V4 #415
• Re: TuM and TIDE - HUMOR ALERT
• Proof to anti-English view?
• Re[2]: Avodah V4 #415
• Re: Avodah V4 #415
• Re: YU Confiscates New York Times
• Torah u'Melocho
• Re: Torah u'Melocho - humor alert
• Re: Torah u'Melocho
• Re: Torah u'Melocho - humor alert
• Sieger decision
• Re: N.Y. Times
• Avodah V4 #409
• Re: Synagogue and State
• Secular Degrees
• Re[2]: Synagogue and State
• [none]
• Re: Re[2]: Synagogue and State
• Re: Avodah V4 #416
• Livin' in the USA

On Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 12:55:50PM -0500, Edward Weiss wrote:
:  Although this doesn't really have much to do with the current TuM thread,
: I found this link interesting (not to mention abhorrent and loathsome),
: and I wonder what kind of response should me made toward this kind of thing.

Unles your conclusion, I think it is helpfull for their to be greater access
to the texts in English, so that you can actually show people what the texts
really say. Hoffman's canards are old and re-used. It was noted on scj that
even typos and mistransliterations carry from one hate site to another.

As to how to reply, David Maddison does a good job at
<http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Cyprus/8815/> and he is constantly asking
for others to contribute material.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  4-Mar-00: Shevi'i, Vayakhel
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 4a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

----- Original Message ----- >
 Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 10:01:44 -0500
> From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
> Subject: Dat U'Medina
>
> Here is a proposed model for a medinah, probably post-moschiach
>
> Nasi - from Beis David.
>
> Sanhedrin - chief legislative and chief judicial body.

> Knesset/Parliament - a democratic/representaive body - not to make
law - but to
> regulate taxes based upon the premise of "no taxation without
representation".
> As I understand it, this was the  origianl intentions of the very
first
> parliament, to levy taxes.
>
> Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com

In a discussion on the subject of local civil courts, Chief Rabbi Rav
Bakshi Doron noted that another topic that could be ruled by
Knesset/judged by civil courts is the topic of  insurance law with
regard to accidents and related issues.  So there would be additional
topics that could be decided by the Knesset besides taxation.

Shoshana L. Boublil

On 6 Mar 00, at 13:02, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:

While it is true that Babe Ruth was a
> pitcher for the Boston Red Sox, we must also remember his other career
> in New York to get the essense of his total contribution to baseball. 

No, No, Nanette. Please don't mention that one!

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

RS Weiss wrote:

>>Although this doesn't really have much to do with the current TuM thread, I 
found this link interesting (not to mention abhorrent and loathsome), and I 
wonder what kind of response should me made toward this kind of thing.  It seems
to corroborate the anti-Artscroll, anti-anything view of translating Sifrei 
Kodesh into other languages.>>

I think that most of the material predates English translations.  Raymond 
Martini's and Nicholas Donin's material have been continuously quoted, 
translated, and reworked since their (medieval) writing and this is only one 
more occasion.  Their work was based on the Hebrew/Aramaic originals.

BTW, you can see an attempted refutation of this website at 
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Cyprus/8815/

Gil Student
gil.student@citicorp.com

Clafification: the list was not meant to be exhaustive, just a guideline.

Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com 


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


In a discussion on the subject of local civil courts, Chief Rabbi Rav 
Bakshi Doron noted that another topic that could be ruled by 
Knesset/judged by civil courts is the topic of  insurance law with 
regard to accidents and related issues.  So there would be additional 
topics that could be decided by the Knesset besides taxation.

Shoshana L. Boublil

RD Glasner wrote:

>>Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but it is not the job of Chazal to 
"establish" p'shat. P'shat is what it is. It is something we can argue about and
provide reasons for, but a text may be inherently ambiguous or open-ended and 
p'shat in such a text cannot be established by fiat. But it may be elucidated 
through a process of discussion and argument, comparison and contrast.>>

So, would I be within bounds to suggest that pshat of "ayin tachas ayin" means 
an actual eye for an eye?  I don't think so.  I think (and was taught) that 
there are certain places where Chazal tell us what pshat is and there is no room
for argument.  That is why none of the traditional meforshim (Rashbam et al 
included) disagreed with Chazal's pshat of "ayin tachas ayin."

Would I be within bounds to suggest that "mocharas haShabbos" refers to a Sunday
without disagreeing with the halachic drashah?  What about saying that 
everything the Karaites said about pshat was correct but halachah is on the 
drash level?  I don't think so.


>>Parshanut did not come to an end with Chazal, so even if Chazal said that lo 
tignov means only kidnapping and I say that it means kidnapping and all other 
forms of stealing, I would be within my rights to do so.>>

You could argue that Chazal did not establish pshat on this pasuk.  I was 
actually waiting for someone to do so because I have no proof.  If so, you can 
suggest a pshat.  But if they were kove'a a pshat then the discussion is over.

Gil Student
gil.student@citicorp.com

RJ Rich wrote:

>>Hmmm...who did the paper belong to and why did he not wait for an answer?  I 
hope that these questions will be answered before the authorized Artscroll 
biography comes out :-)>>

I certainly did not mean to imply any wrongdoing by Dr. Revel.  It was a 
paraphrase of a paraphrase of a story.  The order and details may not have 
happened as I said but the point still stands.

A "philosophy" that we endlessly self-defining and hair-splitting Chaverim
la'Avodah have yet to explore is that of Torah u'Melocho - Torah and Labor
or Work. The famous Chasam Sofer in Sukkah on Yishuv EY is a strong
proponent of this philosophy for those living in EY (but not Chu"L!). I
believe the CI was generally for this philosophy for all except a small
elite (it is important to remember that the spllit with PAI, I believe,
was after the CI's petira). Even the Nefesh Ha'Chaim migt be coaxed to
agree with it, although probably not. Often confused with TIDE, it is not
in fact the same thing. It requires no advanced secular training, and was,
and in Chu"l still is, the predominant philosophy among Chassdim (as
evinced by their heavy presence, on the American scene, in the
contemporary parallels to agriculture and artisanry, jewelry and
electronics). 

KT,
YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

And nop doubt we on this list are engaged in Torah v'Avodah?

Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com  


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Torah u'Melocho 


A "philosophy" that we endlessly self-defining and hair-splitting Chaverim 
la'Avodah have yet to explore is that of Torah u'Melocho - Torah and Labor 
or Work. The famous Chasam Sofer in Sukkah on Yishuv EY is a strong 
proponent of this philosophy for those living in EY (but not Chu"L!). 
electronics). 

KT,
YGB

In a message dated 3/6/00 2:41:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu writes:

> Often confused with TIDE, it is not
>  in fact the same thing. It requires no advanced secular training, and was,
>  and in Chu"l still is,

As that is Poshut Teitch in "Yegias" Shneihem a work which requires Yegia 
Kapecha, and see last Mishne in Kiddushin.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

In a message dated 3/6/00 2:56:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

> And nop doubt we on this list are engaged in Torah v'Avodah?
>  
and a little Gmilas Chassodim too :-)

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

For those who might be interested the full text of the judge's decision in the case of Sieger vs. the Union of Orthodox Rabbis is available at "www.jlaw.com/recent/singer.html"

Kol tuv,
David I. Cohen

In a message dated 3/6/00 10:22:00 AM US Central Standard Time, 
cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il writes:

<< I wanted to 
 know if any of you thought it was a policy shift at YU with respect 
 to what types of publications they will encourage students to read. 
 (I would not expect them to prohibit reading the New York Times 
 outright - I don't think that accords with YU's hashkafa - but I 
 thought it was possible that they had decided not to encourage 
 reading the Times). I regarded what I was posting as being b'geder 
 "nura bei planya." Reb Rich and Reb Rich obviously both feel it 
 does not signify any sort of policy shift (correct me if I am wrong). 
 
 For the record, I read the Times when I lived in New York, and I still 
 read it when I am back there on business, and occasionally on the 
 web.
  >>

Perhaps the issue isn't YU's hashkafa, but rather the Times's. Its priorities 
are all bent out of shape. It's much too Upper West Side, too self-involved, 
to be a really national (or international) newspaper. Plus it has a lousy 
Sports section. If the Times can't get the story right on Darryl Strawberry 
or Marty McSorley, how can it be expected to address more important stuff . . 
. an example of which I might be able to identify if you give me a few 
minutes to think about it.

David Finch

In a message dated 3/6/00 10:27:46 AM US Central Standard Time, 
gil.student@citicorp.com writes:

<< I'm assuming this was said sarcastically.  Or are you intentionally 
mimicking 
 the 19th century German Reform attitude?
  >>

No, my comments about the need to emphasize the joy of Judaism, the 
egalitarian psychodynamics of treating Sammy Sosa (instead of, say, Kaiser 
Wilhelm) as a folk hero, and the wonder and uniqueness of American freedom, 
were said neither sarcastically nor as an attempt to mimic the 19th century 
German Reform attitude. In fact, I was trying to point out how the vast 
differences between America and pre-war Germany make this country an almost 
ideal place to observe Judaism, including observant Judaism. Especially 
observant Judaism, even the RW variety.

Why is it that almost every time someone on the Avodah line says something 
nice about America, someone else points to pre-war Germany, or to the sad 
delusions of the German reform movement, or something like that? You can't 
live west of the Hudson River very long without realizing the extent to which 
the American spirit and way of life is the antithesis of all things German, 
except, perhaps, for the love of good beer. It is within that antithesis that 
one comes to the understand why Americans beat the Germans in two World Wars, 
at enormous cost, and with enormous pride. 

David Finch

In a message dated 3/6/00 11:21:03 AM US Central Standard Time, 
micha@aishdas.org writes:

<< WADR, this is a very non-Jewish view of religion. Judaism isn't about being
 pure, about retreating from the world to some place of holiness. Judaism is
 about living in this world in a holy way. Retreating from politics is
 an abdication of our mission in a very important domain.
  >>

I don't think that the pursuit of holiness -- of spiritual purity -- reflects 
a non-Jewish view of religion. Nor is such a pursuit inconsistent with living 
within Derech Eretz in a holy way. Nor, for that matter, do I think that Jews 
as individuals (i.e., as Jews acting as individuals, separately or together) 
should retreat from politics.

What I am saying is that if we treat an Israeli rabbi as a "gadol," and grant 
him extraordinary power and influence within the Orthodox community, then we 
must face the fact that secular political activity in the name of the rabbi 
will inevitably soil the rabbi. Politics is dirty, and the dirt wears off. 
The rabbis should keep out of it.

David Finch

What about the Novominsker--did he also decide it was
worthless -- after completing a full college degree?  

________________________________
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 09:50:57 +0000
From: sadya n targum <targum1@juno.com>
Subject: re:secular degrees

Mentioning Rav Gifter's attendance at YU in a
discussion of secular
degrees held by gdolim is a raya listor. He attended
for a semester,
decided there was no value to him in it, and left.
Sadya N. Targum

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Like keeping the kohein gadol away from malchus as in the time of Chashmonaim?

Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Synagogue and State 

What I am saying is that if we treat an Israeli rabbi as a "gadol," and grant 
him extraordinary power and influence within the Orthodox community, then we 
must face the fact that secular political activity in the name of the rabbi 
will inevitably soil the rabbi. Politics is dirty, and the dirt wears off. 
The rabbis should keep out of it.

David Finch

And I would add that on several occasions I heard Rav
Gifter speak passionately about his rebbe, Rav Moshe
Soloveitchik.  



____________________________________
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 12:49:54 -0500
From: "Lawrence M. Reisman" <LMReisman@email.msn.com>
Subject: Rav Gifter and College

Sadya N. Targum writes that Rav Gifter "attended
[Yeshiva College] for
a
semester, decided there was no value to him in it, and
left."  I think
he is
confusing the facts.  Rav Gifter stated numerous times
that he is a
graduate
of RIETS, and that without it he would never have gone
to Telshe in
Europe.
Rav Gifter did attend Yale Graduate School in History
for a very short
time
and left.

Levi Reisman

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In a message dated 3/6/00 4:20:19 PM US Central Standard Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

<< Like keeping the kohein gadol away from malchus as in the time of 
Chashmonaim?
  >>

Yes and no. The koheinim proved ultimately corrupt. That's one of the reasons 
why we lost the Second Temple. Their corruption inhered in the way they were 
allowed to use their power, especially in relation to outside political 
forces. The gadolim of today's Israeli rabbinate are, I hope, purer than the 
class of koheinim that led to our downfall. In fact, they *aren't* a 
spiritual caste like the koheinim, which is itself a hopeful sign. But I fear 
that they're learning bad lessons from the past.

David Finch

Carl writes

> 
> The problem is that there's a gray area in which if you legislate,
> you are establishing religion, yet those effected would argue that
> you are constricting their freedom to be agnostic. Take marriage for
> example.
> 

I think Carl did a nice job of pointing out the dangers of legislating
religion
In Israel. In the end in most cases it probably does a lot more harm to
religion than help. I am not convinced that those who push for religious
legislation are really doing it for the sake of religion.

To add one extreme case to Carl's list is the question of chametz on
pesach. According to Israeli law it is prohibited for a Jew to sell
chametz on Pesach (of course in the old city of Jerusalem is is okay for
the Arabs!). The result is that I know people who freeze bread for the
entire Pesach so they will have a supply. There are people in my
department who got married in Cyprus as a matter of principle. As Carl
pointed out having a secular burial is something that will bother no
one.

Eli Turkel

--- MPoppers@kayescholer.com wrote:Hakoras hatov for
> the
> method of government in America does not mean
> embracing
> all that (or even some of what) America represents.

Not even some?

What DOES America represent? Loose Morals?  Perhaps...
in some instances. But this is not the essence of
America, the Beautiful.

I wasn't going to respond to this thread because I'm
pretty sure I'm going to be beat up on the issue, if I
am not totally ignored. (and I've had enuf-a-dat) But
the above statement moved me to do so.

First let me say that I agree with David Finch. The
USA is the greatest country ever to be placed on
planet earth. Never in history, not even in the golden
era of Spain has a country been created that has been
so welcoming by it's very credo, of other faiths. 
This is not to say that the USA is perfect, Far from
it. 

There has been a lot of injustice in the past to
minorities in general and Jews have suffered their
share of anti-semitism here. But even though this
country is defacto Christian it is not officailly so. 
The religious intolerance of Mother England toward the
early pilgrims moved them to venture across the ocean
to settle in the New World. 

Because of this, religious tolerance was built into
the very fabric of existence here.  Much of the early
culture was adapted from the  "Old Testament". In fact
Thanksgiving was mimetic of Shmini Atzeres as the time
for final seasonal harvest and the giving of thanks
thereof.(Which is why it is relatively proximal in
time to it.) Early Pilgrims paid great homage to the
Old Testement and named their children biblical names
Like Israel, Abraham, Sarah and Jacob. 

Tolerance meant protection for minority religions
because the early pilgrims themselves felt the sting
of religious persecution. 

The ideal of religious tolerance has been carried
throughout history from one generation to the next and
was incorporated into the Bill of Rights at the very
inception of  US indepenence and is the very essence
of this nations greatness.  

Culturally, most Goyim here do not give a whit as to
whether you are Jewish or not.  Most Goyim just want
to worship the god of money or sports or "whatever"
pursuit of pleasure they please.  Sure... there might
be a hint of latent anti-semitism here. Most probably
this is more in the form of a stereotyping which is
relatively benign.  The only true anti-semites are
fringe groups that are very noisy and very ignored or
condemned by the vast majority of Americans. 

The "Good Ole' Boys club" of the upper echelons of
American buisness where you have to be the "right"
(read:WASP) kind of American is fading fast if not
already gone. Big Buisness is interested in Big
Profits and it doesn't matter to them if the CEO is a
Jew, a Black, a Woman, a Pakistani, or a Cik, (turban
and all).All that matters is the bottom line. Orthodox
Jews are upwardly mobile proportionally to the amount
profit they can produce. 

America has no history of ethnic pride as it's driving
force. We are a nation of immigrants. Joseph
Lieberman, an Orthodox Jew, can run for the Senate,
win,  and be looked up to by his colleagues as the
most moral man in the Senate. The world of
entertainment is so full of Jews that it would be
nearly impossible for them to exist without them. And
the entertainment industry is probably the most
influential compononent to determine attitudes, not
only in the USA but in the world.  The same thing is
true about the print and electronic media. 

Europe,  all of it, has a great history of
anti-semitism and it runs deep and long.  Even the
golden age of Spain ended up in Torqemada's
Inquisition because of their need to validate
themselves through the conversions of the Jews. 

During Germany's golden era Jews were so integrated
into society that many just shed their Jewishness
entirely through assimilation. Jews were in the Arts,
the proffesions, the crafts, buisness... every part of
German society. But Germany's official Religion, The
Lutheren Church, contained the innate hatred of Jews
that it's founding father, Martin Luther (Y'M Sh) had.
 The people of Germany carried this latent hatred for
centuries, passing it on from generation to generation
untill Hitler (Y'M Sh) found in the Jews the easy
scapegoat to ultimately blame Germany's post WWI woes
on, ultimately culminating in the holocaust. 

Polish hatred is Legend. It's ignorant Catholic
population, to this day, believes that the Jews killed
their god and that Jews deserve evrything they have
coming to them, including the Holocaust. Every
European Nation since the beginning of Christendom,
had an official religion, and therefore a grounding in
a history of hate of the Jew. This is what Rashi meant
when he commented: Eisov Sonei Es Yaakov.  

But, not so America, home of the brave;land of the
free. It was this nation who fought Hitler and
sacrificed it's sons on the field of battle.  (Did
anyone see the movie "Saving Private Ryan"?)  This
country shed much blood to defeat Hitler. Sure there
was some of that Good Ole Boy Anti-Semitism mentality
in the State Department during the Holocaust But I
think that it has been overblown  in recent years, and
there were plenty of Jews guilty of indifference
during the war as well. 

I believe what has been attributed as indifference (by
Jew and Non-Jew alike) during the Holocaust by
Americans was really just  incredulity on the part of
those who heard of Holocaust atrocities. Nobody could
believe the Horror stories...  Too unbelievable to be
true. (My mother in Law who is an Auschwitz survivor
told me that before she was caught and sent to
Auschwitz even she didn't believe what she had heard
about the camps.) 

And which country is the biggest supporter of Israel
today?  I'll give you three guesses and the first two
don't even count. The USA supports Israel with all
that it has, maorally and financially as well as
militarily.  Every President and Congress almost
without exception since Harry S. Truman has been
pro-Israel some more some less but always pro.

And look at how Jews flourish here.  Jews, (even
Orthodox ones) are wealthier today (both as a
percentage and in sheer numbers) here than in any
other country and any other time in history.
Opprtunities abound and are virtually unlimited. 

The freedom to practice Judaism here is greater than
anyplace or any time in history. Think of all the
Kehilos such as Borough Park, Crown Heights,
Wasghington Heights, that are thriving vibrant
communities the likes of which are unheard of at any
time in History. Think of NuSkvere, and Monroe, N.Y.
Think of Monsey. Politcians tripover themselves to get
the Jewish vote Just witness last weeks visit by VP Al
Gore to The Skverer Rebbe. Need I go on? We are
totally protected and are very often admired by much
of the gentile world. One of the most admired women in
history by all Americans: Golda Meir.  Dr. Laura, an
Orthodox Jew, is looked to by millions of Gentiles as
the standard for morality. 

I could go on there is so much more to say, but I'm
tired and (for those of you who bothered to read this
tirade) you're all probably tired of me as well.

So, in conclusion, I do not think you can compare the
USA with any other country of today or yesteryear.
There is not nor has there ever been another country
like it.

HM


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